Who's actually guilty?
Anybody else get the impression that the Crooked Man may actually not have been guilty of ordering the murders?
Based on the dialogue in the Crooked Lair, Georgie wasn't talking like he'd been acting under orders, he talked as though he exceeded his mandate and was defiant about it. At the Club, Vivian's says Georgie, "made mistakes", and he accuses her of throwing him under the bus.
Georgie says that CM told him to, "Take care of it", but even if that's true, that's highly ambiguous. And he tells you that AFTER CM agreed to turn him over to Bigby. When Georgie implicates CM, he might be trying to get revenge for CM's failure to protect him.
And then Faith/Nerissa says she heard him give the order, but then admits later it's a lie.
So the only evidence we have tying CM to the murders is an admitted lie and the words of a man who has a strong incentive to lie. I think I may have thrown an innocent man down the Wishing Well.
Comments
I think that Vivian, by saying he "made mistakes", might have been referring to Georgie's failure to get away with the murders: he didn't notice that somebody took Faith/Nerissa's head; he got caught while trying to get rid of Lily's body...and so on. Probably she was also talking about the impulsive reaction he had when the Crooked Man sold him out.
About the Crooked Man, it's pretty clear that he is more than capable of killing, and it's not hard to believe that he has already done it before: Georgie took care of the girls because he was scared, he knew that, otherwise, he would have been the one taking cared of...so, other similar situation must have occured in the past.
As it has already been said, the Crooked Man is all about power and control...once you're no longer at his command, you're no longer, period.
The Crooked Man and his puppets are the perfect example of how Mafia works: the Boss is the great speaker, the one who hides inside his suit and tie, the cruelest, the rotten to the core and still the the one who always gets away with it. His stooges are nothing more than tools, they come to life when he holds them in his hands, and the works he gets them to do is so vile that it's astonishing...but once he doesn't need them anymore, he lets them fall. And everyone fears him, or worse, trusts him. That's why it's so hard to find evidence, because there's always a sheep ready to protect its shepherd....thankfully, though, there are also wolves in the world (I'm not sure if this metaphor makes any sense).
Anyway, even if the Crooked Man didn't call for those girls's deaths (even though, I still believe he did), don't forget how he threatened Fabletown citizens, manipulated them and he even enslaved fables if I remember correct.
That said, I was disappointed as well when I found out Nerissa had lied and I felt guilty since I really wanted it to be a fair trial. In my opinion, though, that was probably for the best and what's certain is that the Crooked Man wasn't innocent.
P.S. Sorry for my bad english, it's not my first language.
Georgie is reponsible for the murders; I can never take that away from him. But like the previous user before me has stated, the CM ordered fo them to be 'taken care' of. Faith and the others found incriminating evidence on one of the CM's men. To show they had commited treason, the CM ordered for Georgie to make an 'example' by pulling the ribbon from Faith.
The CM was all about power and control; enough for him to murder his own wife and kids because they tried stepping in his way. With that being said, anyone that ever dared try to go against him or DIDN'T follow the rules would be 'taken care of' themselves. CM used this to his advantage. He was wealthy, powerful and a brilliant man.
Georgie and Vivian 'made mistakes' just like all the Fables did. Georgie was caught between a rock and a hard place; he had the only thing he cared for being threatened and to protect Vivian, he would do anything the CM said. Georgie Porgie does not scream murderer and he only did this because of protecting the only thing he had in this world; they made a promise to protect each other and that means something when its only you and one person.
The CM is like a mob boss;l don't do what I say, and you'll pay with your life. In so much debt, my boys will come around. Don't pay up, we can arrange a payment. So, in the end, Georgie DID kill those woman but the CM's hands are covered in blood, too.
I WILL agree with you; Georgie was between a rock and hard place and felt like he had no one to turn to. He and Vivian came to the mundy world alone; all they had were each other. But that still does not take away the fact that he DID murder those woman.
First off, the CM is no saint. He murdered his family prior to this BECAUSE they got in his way. He'd stop at nothing to eliminate those that dared voice their opinion and go against the grain.
Now, he DID have a hold on the Pudding & Pie, Lucky Pawn, Cut Above, etc. THAT I do know. Now, Georgie knew what he was doing. He and vivian could have gone to the CM. Knowing what they do, like Nerissa did, sat in his office and EXPLAIN the situation. He didn't have to do what he was told. Yes, the CM did know about the murders and was trying to help cover up Georgie's mistake but that does not mean he did it; if anything, he's guily by association.
Yes, Georgie DID know what he was doing; I'm not saying he didn't. I'm not taking that away. Georgie DID kill those woman. I don't think he WANTED to, though.
When Faith and the girls got a hold of that image with Crane and Lily, remember, Nerissa went to Georgie for help and forgiveness. He DIDN'T do anything until he went to speak to the CM; he comes back and said 'Things have changed' and he needed to 'show an example' of treason. He had no choice; either them or Vivian or even his own life.
CM even had eyes in the Business Office; he had Crane under this thumb and he was using the funds for his own sexual pleasures. Again, not to repeat, but he was acting like a Mob boss; sit back and let your goons do the 'dirty' work so it would appear your hands are clean. You even mentioned it yourself, he KILLED his own family because they got in the way. Who was stopping him from killing Jersey, The Tweedles or Georgie? You don't DO what I say, you die. Simple as that.
And how could he have GONE to the Sheriff; this had been going on apparently for awhile; they didn't even KNOW Johann had his business taken over by Mary. And snitching will get you killed quicker than you know it. Georgie FEARED for his life and Vivian's, too. I'm not saying what he did was a GOOD thing but at the time, the guy had nothing else.
What would YOU have done, should the tables he turned and someone you loved was going to be murdered, should you not follow rules? The CM IS guilty; just as much as Gerorgie, Jersey, the Tweedles and Mary are.
I may need to replay that scene, but I'm pretty sure Georgie said that CM told him to, "Take care of it," not "take care of them". The latter is clearly ordering a murder, the former is ambiguous and may just have meant that Georgie needed to get his employees under control. If Fabletown "hasn't had a murder in years" (Ep 1), it's pretty clear that murder isn't a normal part of doing business for the CM. Throughout the scene at the hideout, it's clear that CM barely has his lieutenants under control, and depending on your choices, it looks like he loses control of his guys. And remember that when Georgie says he was afraid for his life, he had a strong motivation to lie: Dying men are free to speak the truth, but they are also free to eat a grenade to take other people with them.
I disagree with your description of a "perfect example of how the Mafia works." Criminals gather into groups for security and to allow them to make more money, but they don't turn into mindless automatons (at least not in this story). The American Mafia largely grew out of Italian populations banding together to protect their own neighborhoods because the police didn't care enough to do so. It looks like the CM's organization grew the same way: a bunch of immigrant Fables with an ineffective, unresponsive government (and no access to the Mundy govt) turn to an individual who can help them with their problems.
Don't get me wrong, CM is an outlaw in several dirty businesses. But he probably views himself as a bootlegger providing necessary services (loans and cheap glamours) for the residents of Fabletown who don't have the money to deal with the 13th Floor's monopoly. But when he's got a silver-loaded gun pointed at Bigby, he doesn't shoot or try to escape. Instead he demands to be taken in for trial, and seems genuinely surprised when the Fables turn on him. That makes perfect sense if he views himself as Carneige/Robin Hood, and even moreso if he's actually innocent. And let's look at the composition of the mob/jury for a minute: everybody there was either a close friend of the victims or a resident of the Woodlands (the aristocracy of Fabletown). The one exception is Auntie Greenleaf, and she argues for clemency. If the jury/mob had been drawn from the general population, it might have had a very different outcome.
I think he just misunderstood the words, honestly. But we don't know enough to go off of that. Indeed, the CM DID kill his family cause they got in the way but that does not mean he wanted those girls dead. Georgie jumped the gun; he did what he THOUGHT the CM wanted.
I understand how you see it; the guy was being attacked and thrown under the bus. He didn't mean to kill those women, just doing what he was told. But He STILL pulled the trigger and only when he was caught, was Georgie willing to throw anyone; for a minute there, he was doing it to vivian until he tried backing out. "I wasn't trying to-" "I didn't mean it-"
Oh, and another thing: the fact that CM gets Crane out of town is important. It's hard to imagine that a disgraced, embezzling politician will be useful later, and he knows so much that he's a significant threat. CM has a very good reason to kill him, and no reason to leave him alive. CM has a lot more motivation to kill Crane than to kill the girls, but he lets Crane live. If CM spared Crane, it seems unlikely he'd order the girls killed.
I think it's kind of irrelevant whether he said "it" or "them" since the meaning would be the same anyway. When I said that he had killed before I was referring to what he did to his family...now that I have read my post again I can see that what I meant was not clear. Anyway, we don't know if there actually were no murders in Fabletown, in the game it's pointed out that the Crooked Man was practicly running Fabletown himself and that any kind of crimes were committed without the authoriries noticing...so we can't be sure that those were actually the first murders he ordered (if he did) or just the first ones he wasn't able to get away with.
I didn't actually feel like he wasn't able to control his guys, of course that's just my opinion, but to me it seemed like they just obeyed his orders.
I don't think that the Crooked Man organization was about "protection" or "making money", those are just the strategies that the Crooked Man uses to gain people's trust, but as I said it's really all about him getting power, and in this way it really reminds me of how Mafia works here (Italy). I mean, he gets his guys to blackmail and kill (maybe not the girls, but he called for Bigby's death for sure) for him, everything's fine as long as he doesn't get his hands dirty. As soon as he finds himself at risk, though, he doesn't esitate to sell out his guys, which anyway are not always less guilty in my opinion. So that "protection" and "helping each other" is really just a lie, in real life as in the game.
I think the reason why he wanted to stand trial was because he thought that there would have been Fabletown citizens who were still afraid of him and willing to protect him, so he thought for sure that he would have ended up innocent and that would have also been the only way to get the authorities out of his way. Little did he know that once the citizens he manipulated gained the Government's attention, they were no longer hopeless and so no longer under his control. And yes, I agree it was pretty unfair that only those people were part of the jury, anyway it's said that they were the only ones who showed up, so it's probably because others didn't care or were too scared.
Even if that would have ended differently, that wouldn't cancel the Crooked Man's crimes.
If you put it that way, what motivation did Georgie have for killing the girls? The Crooked Man may have thought that Crane would have been useful in the future, in case Fabletown citizens forgave or forgot about his previous crimes...just to quote "fables live a long fuckin'time", so who knows
I'm not so sure. I'm playing the game over again. From what I remember it seemed like Georgie at first denied it; then stated it was from the orders of CM, but even in that "confession" something did not seem right. Even the way they died seemed rather innocuous, just pull the ribbon out from them. It seemed to cut and dry. And how would Faith/Nerissa get a hold of the heads if he actually pulled the ribbon. I'm willing to believe that Faith/Nerissa killed those two herself and placed the head at Bigby's step. The only thing we know is Georgie dumped Lily's body because she was killed in an associated business place of his. There are a lot of things that are still cloudy about this season.
I don't think Georgie was lying when he said "The Crooked Man gave me the order. He told me to kill them...", what we can't be sure of is what exactly CM meant by "take care of them". Even if the crooked man meant something other than killing the girls, I wouldn't blame Georgie for thinking that his boss' intention was to have the girls murdered. Crooked Man had killed other people before because they didn't pay him or that they ween't following his orders. He certainly isn't an innocent man. We just don't have solid evidence to link him to the murder of Faith and Lily.
I personally think his intention was to kill the prostitutes though. Freeing the girls or punishing them in a less severe manner just doesn't fit him.
It was Georgie who killed Faith and Lily, but I believe he had to do it or else the Crooked Man would have killed him and/or Vivian.
I definitely know for a fact that the Crooked Man is more than capable of murder for he killed his own wife and children, but his best weapon is his gift of persuasion. I believe that he wanted a trial because he believes that he can manipulate the citizens and place the blame on Fabletown government. Plus he knows that Bigby and Snow doesn't have sufficient evidence to convict him, so he was very confident that he'll be acquitted and was genuinely shocked when Nerissa stated that she heard him order the murders on Faith and Lily.
There's one part I don't understand: I know why Faith was killed but why did the Crooked Man want Lily murdered? It was Faith who stole the photo and wanted to use it as leverage; I don't know if Lily was behind Faith's plan 100% or if she was hesitant and cautious but went along with it, and of course Nerissa was spared because she told the Crooked Man about Faith's plan. He has no qualms or murdering someone once they outlived their usefulness, but I don't think he would order a murder without a good reason, like if someone posed as a threat to his criminal operations, which Faith did. The Crooked Man ordered Georgie to kill Faith to eliminate the threat and to set an example for the girls. There was no evidence on why Lily was murdered, Telltale never stated that if she was killed because of the photo or for another reason.
I hope in the next season or DLC, Telltale will fill in these plotholes.
The more we talk about this, the less sense it makes. I really enjoyed the game, but I haven't heard a theory yet that explains all the plot holes. Not only does the final explanation come from a known liar, but the presence of glamours means that you can't even trust the things you personally saw happen. I'm hoping TTG moves on to a new story next season.
The Crooked Man relied on thugs to scare people into control and obedience through threats and violence. In this line of work, his own associates were afraid too. Here's what Georgie says, "He told me to 'take care of it'. You don't think I know what that means? Either I do what he says or I'm the one who's getting 'dealt with'." From these words alone, it seems Georgie got paranoid and did in fact misinterpret The Crooked Man. Therefore concluding that only Georgie is guilty of the murders. However, The Crooked Man wasn't entirely innocent either. The wholesale corruption of Fabletown was what he was guilty of and he still needed to be brought to justice. It's not really necessary to kill The Crooked Man or throw him down the Witching Well.
That's how a smart crime boss works. He builds up a wall of deniability.
If there is another season, I doubt it will be rehashed. I don't even think TT can tie everything together smoothly.