They tried to kill him because the CM heavily implied that they should. They didn't just somehow mutually decided they were all going to hop out of their chairs and start attacking Bigby. The CM saw he wasn't going to be able to get Bigby to cooperate, so he told his goons to kill him.
Considering how he acted when Nerissa threw accusations at him and he lost his cool, yet when Bigby or Snow threw the same accusations he kept his cool so he was clearly guilty in my eyes after that occurred.
The Crooked Man clearly wanted bigby dead. Otherwise, he wouldn't have left Bloody Mary with Bigby, thinking she was gonna kill him. His words "find me when your finished, dear", or close to that, confirm this.
It was precisely the point.
1. Crooked Man didn't want Bigby dead. He had lots of chances to riddle him with silver, he didn't opt for that… more.
2. You can ask him why would he want a trial if Fables are likely to sentence him to death. His reply would be that it's his problem or something. He doesn't look suicidal, so he has a plan and definitely a backup ready.
3. His plan would be to make Fabletown afraid of the Wolf. His entire line of defense was "I'm helping you, they're not". If you rip his head off then he achieves his purpose. Snow's indifference/work overload + overly brutal sheriff? What more could he want.
4. Of course the plan doesn't work if CM is actually dead so my shot is CM you kill/imprison is not the real CM.
Should Snow White answer for the actions of Bigby? Depending on how you play him, he uses excessive force on Gren, beats Dee/Woody during a… moren interrogation, kills Dum. Crooked Man is probably not as innocent as he claims but like a lot of businesses, the people below you have agency to work in ways for your interest (not every procedure and action is explicitly stated). Sorry regardless of what he represents, you have the burden of proof and rarely is the testimony of one person enough to convict this man of some of the crimes he was accused. The people acted irrationally and that's not the Fabletown Snow and Bigby were trying to promote.
Even if he was innocent of the murders,(Which he wasn't) he's still guilty of everything else we thrown at him. Even if he was of everything else, he tried to kill the sheriff which in my opinion, you die.
Already said here but... you obviously don't understand how mob bosses work eh? Someone truly powerful never gets their own hands dirty, and they often believe they're doing what's necessary for the greater good, sincerely. Al Capone for example rationalized all his actions while admitting that he was responsible for heinous crimes. He insists they were necessary. CM falls right into that category. But I agree that if there wasn't already a problem with the fabletown system, someone like CM wouldn't be able to exploit people's weaknesses as much as he did.
I find it amusing that a fictional villain like CM could actually manipulate someone in real life into thinking that he's innocent. Shows you how powerful his manipulation could be.
I dont think thats definite proof that he didnt do anything. We know Georgie killed the women but we still dont know what The Crooked Man said to set him off. Nerissa's involvement just threw the whole thing into confusion but once he was dead, or turned depending on what option you chose, that was the end of it. I wouldnt consider him completely innocent but I dont think what Nerissa did was necessarily right.
I dont think thats definite proof that he didnt do anything. We know Georgie killed the women but we still dont know what The Crooked Man sa… moreid to set him off. Nerissa's involvement just threw the whole thing into confusion but once he was dead, or turned depending on what option you chose, that was the end of it. I wouldnt consider him completely innocent but I dont think what Nerissa did was necessarily right.
Jack explains Georgie's situation. Georgie tells us what the Crooked Man told him "deal with it", and reaffirms Jack's words. Jersey reaffirms Georgie's words by saying nothing happens without Crooked Man's say-so.
I agree with what you said about there being no reason for Nerissa/Faith to say she heard it first hand.
I dont think thats definite proof that he didnt do anything. We know Georgie killed the women but we still dont know what The Crooked Man sa… moreid to set him off. Nerissa's involvement just threw the whole thing into confusion but once he was dead, or turned depending on what option you chose, that was the end of it. I wouldnt consider him completely innocent but I dont think what Nerissa did was necessarily right.
Lol are you the crooked mans lawyer or something? They should have got you to defend him at his trial :P But no he is a bad man, he might not have got down and dirty but he was manipulating Fabletown for his own means, he might try to fancy it up and say he helped people. But that back room in the butchers shop says otherwise.
Yeah, it's quite interesting that not only did Crooky not commit the murders by hand, we also have no real evidence that he actually ordered them in the first place.
This is why I strongly believe killing him is the wrong thing to do.
Should Snow White answer for the actions of Bigby? Depending on how you play him, he uses excessive force on Gren, beats Dee/Woody during a… moren interrogation, kills Dum. Crooked Man is probably not as innocent as he claims but like a lot of businesses, the people below you have agency to work in ways for your interest (not every procedure and action is explicitly stated). Sorry regardless of what he represents, you have the burden of proof and rarely is the testimony of one person enough to convict this man of some of the crimes he was accused. The people acted irrationally and that's not the Fabletown Snow and Bigby were trying to promote.
Understanding the truth based on what The Crooked Man says has nothing to do with being manipulated by him. He's innocent of the murders, but guilty on other things. Also, Al Capone and The Crooked Man were both different people in different circumstances with different ideas who were responsible for different crimes.
Already said here but... you obviously don't understand how mob bosses work eh? Someone truly powerful never gets their own hands dirty, and… more they often believe they're doing what's necessary for the greater good, sincerely. Al Capone for example rationalized all his actions while admitting that he was responsible for heinous crimes. He insists they were necessary. CM falls right into that category. But I agree that if there wasn't already a problem with the fabletown system, someone like CM wouldn't be able to exploit people's weaknesses as much as he did.
I find it amusing that a fictional villain like CM could actually manipulate someone in real life into thinking that he's innocent. Shows you how powerful his manipulation could be.
Lol are you the crooked mans lawyer or something? They should have got you to defend him at his trial :P But no he is a bad man, he might no… moret have got down and dirty but he was manipulating Fabletown for his own means, he might try to fancy it up and say he helped people. But that back room in the butchers shop says otherwise.
I agree with you. He wasn't a good person at all, but I wanted to be 100% sure he killed/ordered the death of those innocent people before accuse him of murder.
(And this is also why I liked Nerissa but I lost her trust at the end of episode 5).
I actually suspect that the Crooked Man was innocent after all, and everything was a conspiracy by the thirteen floor witches, who wanted to get rid of cheap glamours, as they were unfair competition for their glamors.
Yeah, that's possible. But I think between Nerissa lying at the trial and her "you're not as bad as everyone says you are" line, she schemed a conspiracy that involved getting the girls killed to save herself and distracted everyone towards the The Crooked Man to avoid persecution.
I actually suspect that the Crooked Man was innocent after all, and everything was a conspiracy by the thirteen floor witches, who wanted to get rid of cheap glamours, as they were unfair competition for their glamors.
If you read the books you see that they exist in a harsh world. People are executed, people are killed in fights, people are murdered (sometimes semi officially sanctioned). They have their own rules, you can't apply the mundy rules.
No matter how you look at it the Crooked man was just...well crooked. All the years of his so called "helping" had finally caught up to him, and in the end he was alone having no one to blame but himself.
Agreed. He associated himself with thugs and relied on them to scare people into taking their money just so he could control Fabletown. What did he expect was going to eventually happen? His own tactics led to his own downfall.
No matter how you look at it the Crooked man was just...well crooked. All the years of his so called "helping" had finally caught up to him, and in the end he was alone having no one to blame but himself.
I wouldn't know. Killed him. Laid his corpse on the table at the trial. You should have seen the look on Snow's face. She was so pissed.
Oh, was I supposed to bring him in alive?
No real evidence against him? A great mob leader does well to distance his self just enough for the legal ambiguity of reasonable doubt. There's that old saying, "usually where there's smoke there's fire". Part of being a detective is using inductive reasoning to piece things together. Why would essentially the entire town of Fables get involved in a conspiracy to get rid of the Crooked Man? The Crooked Man was a loan shark gangster.
There is an option for bigby to say to nerissa "you threw your friends under the bus"...this implied to me that Nerissa either set up the murders of Faith and Lily to get the CM caught...or all three of them were really working on trying to get out from underneath the CM and he found out and told Georgie to "take care of it"...most of us even know what that usually implies in their line of work, but that phrase is just vague enough to instill reasonable doubt due to the ambiguity of meaning. Nerissa's part may have been unknown to CM...i can't remember clearly, i'd have to play it again....but either way, Nerissa seized this opportunity and used it to her advantage to get out and get the CM out of control.
Personally, I strangled the CM to death at his hideout after whoopin Bloody Mary's arse. He was pulling the strings and essentially terrorzing Fabletown. The CM DID try to have Bigby killed by Dee and Dum-to which i ripped out one of their throats...and sent Blood Mary after him-twice...and black mailed Icabod Crane to leave to country...those aren't really the actions of someone who's innocent and conspired against
The Crooked Man is guilty on other things, but not the murders of Faith and Lilly. Georgie killed them after misinterpreting the Crooked Man's words. Just like he said, they're all free to make their own decisions. You said you ripped out Dum's throat and choked the Crooked Man. Your own violent decisions justify their violent actions against Bigby.
No real evidence against him? A great mob leader does well to distance his self just enough for the legal ambiguity of reasonable doubt. The… morere's that old saying, "usually where there's smoke there's fire". Part of being a detective is using inductive reasoning to piece things together. Why would essentially the entire town of Fables get involved in a conspiracy to get rid of the Crooked Man? The Crooked Man was a loan shark gangster.
There is an option for bigby to say to nerissa "you threw your friends under the bus"...this implied to me that Nerissa either set up the murders of Faith and Lily to get the CM caught...or all three of them were really working on trying to get out from underneath the CM and he found out and told Georgie to "take care of it"...most of us even know what that usually implies in their line of work, but that phrase is just vague enough to instill reasonable doubt due to the ambiguity of meaning. Nerissa's part may … [view original content]
After playing it again, I believe Georgie, the Jersey Devil and 'Nerissa'. JD says that if those girls are dead it's because CM wanted them dead. CM isn't going to do anything to incriminate himself, he's a businessman, he's smarter than that. Georgie was the scapegoat set up to take the fall should CM's name be linked to anything. You saw how quickly CM through his employees under the bus. All the Fables are doing Shady shit and CM has something on everyone-that's why they protect him. They don't want to have to air their own dirty laundry. No one protected CM because they wanted to protect. Take Aunty Greenleaf...CM helps get her her magical tree and probably felt obligated to help the CM because having the tree allowed her to make her non-black market Glamours (I say they're not illegal b/c as Bufkin stated, it's frowned upon, but there aren't any laws forbidding it.) JD doesn't seem like a nice guy and appears keeps his mouth shut so he can take the property from all the Fables the CM collects from; he closes his eyes and takes his cut, to use Georgie's words. 'Nerissa' did lie about what she heard the CM say, but as she said, she wasn't going to see him get off on a technicality. Faith found the photo of Crane sleeping with someone that he was allowing to use these 'black market' Glamours and CM didn't want anything to be traced backed to eat the expense of of other Fables. Also, Vivian says while they're at CM's place "you're all just going to let him take the fall?" or something akin to that....all the evidence is circumstancial, bu I don't think CM planned of Vivian dying...she needed to stay alive to keep the girls quiet; CM didn't plan on 'Nerissa' coming to his so-called hearing. Everytime one of CM's perps behaved violently, it was a misunderstanding...at some point it's more than just a coincidence
The Crooked Man is guilty on other things, but not the murders of Faith and Lilly. Georgie killed them after misinterpreting the Crooked Man… more's words. Just like he said, they're all free to make their own decisions. You said you ripped out Dum's throat and choked the Crooked Man. Your own violent decisions justify their violent actions against Bigby.
Comments
Bigby killed many back in the Homelands. Don't see you trying to punish him??
He was the reason of everything, though my dear friend - leading to murder.
bigby changed though crooky is still a piece of sh*t
They tried to kill him because the CM heavily implied that they should. They didn't just somehow mutually decided they were all going to hop out of their chairs and start attacking Bigby. The CM saw he wasn't going to be able to get Bigby to cooperate, so he told his goons to kill him.
Considering how he acted when Nerissa threw accusations at him and he lost his cool, yet when Bigby or Snow threw the same accusations he kept his cool so he was clearly guilty in my eyes after that occurred.
The Crooked Man clearly wanted bigby dead. Otherwise, he wouldn't have left Bloody Mary with Bigby, thinking she was gonna kill him. His words "find me when your finished, dear", or close to that, confirm this.
Johann's shop have more than enough proof and testimony to convict the Crooked Man.
Georgie's confession was all I really needed. He was on his deathbed.
Even if he was innocent of the murders,(Which he wasn't) he's still guilty of everything else we thrown at him. Even if he was of everything else, he tried to kill the sheriff which in my opinion, you die.
Charles Manson too lol
He is guilty deal with it!
Already said here but... you obviously don't understand how mob bosses work eh? Someone truly powerful never gets their own hands dirty, and they often believe they're doing what's necessary for the greater good, sincerely. Al Capone for example rationalized all his actions while admitting that he was responsible for heinous crimes. He insists they were necessary. CM falls right into that category. But I agree that if there wasn't already a problem with the fabletown system, someone like CM wouldn't be able to exploit people's weaknesses as much as he did.
I find it amusing that a fictional villain like CM could actually manipulate someone in real life into thinking that he's innocent. Shows you how powerful his manipulation could be.
I dont think thats definite proof that he didnt do anything. We know Georgie killed the women but we still dont know what The Crooked Man said to set him off. Nerissa's involvement just threw the whole thing into confusion but once he was dead, or turned depending on what option you chose, that was the end of it. I wouldnt consider him completely innocent but I dont think what Nerissa did was necessarily right.
"but I dont think what Nerissa did was necessarily right."
Eh bigby would have probably killed him anyway
Jack explains Georgie's situation. Georgie tells us what the Crooked Man told him "deal with it", and reaffirms Jack's words. Jersey reaffirms Georgie's words by saying nothing happens without Crooked Man's say-so.
I agree with what you said about there being no reason for Nerissa/Faith to say she heard it first hand.
We don't know what really happened, maybe The Crooked Man is working under someone too?
Lol are you the crooked mans lawyer or something? They should have got you to defend him at his trial :P But no he is a bad man, he might not have got down and dirty but he was manipulating Fabletown for his own means, he might try to fancy it up and say he helped people. But that back room in the butchers shop says otherwise.
Yeah, it's quite interesting that not only did Crooky not commit the murders by hand, we also have no real evidence that he actually ordered them in the first place.
This is why I strongly believe killing him is the wrong thing to do.
"These charges, if proven, are enough to sentence death" ~Snow
This goes for all those working under The Crooked Man who all attempted to murder Bigby. Their crimes are not determinate, Bigby's are though.
Understanding the truth based on what The Crooked Man says has nothing to do with being manipulated by him. He's innocent of the murders, but guilty on other things. Also, Al Capone and The Crooked Man were both different people in different circumstances with different ideas who were responsible for different crimes.
Haha. I'm sure they'd love to throw me down the Witching Well too. But yeah, he was guilty for other crimes.
Agree 100%. There's no real proof that CM was the killer or ordered anybody dead, only circumstantial evidence.
I agree with you. He wasn't a good person at all, but I wanted to be 100% sure he killed/ordered the death of those innocent people before accuse him of murder.
(And this is also why I liked Nerissa but I lost her trust at the end of episode 5).
I actually suspect that the Crooked Man was innocent after all, and everything was a conspiracy by the thirteen floor witches, who wanted to get rid of cheap glamours, as they were unfair competition for their glamors.
Yeah, that's possible. But I think between Nerissa lying at the trial and her "you're not as bad as everyone says you are" line, she schemed a conspiracy that involved getting the girls killed to save herself and distracted everyone towards the The Crooked Man to avoid persecution.
If you read the books you see that they exist in a harsh world. People are executed, people are killed in fights, people are murdered (sometimes semi officially sanctioned). They have their own rules, you can't apply the mundy rules.
No matter how you look at it the Crooked man was just...well crooked. All the years of his so called "helping" had finally caught up to him, and in the end he was alone having no one to blame but himself.
Agreed. He associated himself with thugs and relied on them to scare people into taking their money just so he could control Fabletown. What did he expect was going to eventually happen? His own tactics led to his own downfall.
I wouldn't know. Killed him. Laid his corpse on the table at the trial. You should have seen the look on Snow's face. She was so pissed.
Oh, was I supposed to bring him in alive?
You could've. Everyone would be less angry then.
Nah, more fun to kill him.
He still committed crimes though, there's proof of those.
No real evidence against him? A great mob leader does well to distance his self just enough for the legal ambiguity of reasonable doubt. There's that old saying, "usually where there's smoke there's fire". Part of being a detective is using inductive reasoning to piece things together. Why would essentially the entire town of Fables get involved in a conspiracy to get rid of the Crooked Man? The Crooked Man was a loan shark gangster.
There is an option for bigby to say to nerissa "you threw your friends under the bus"...this implied to me that Nerissa either set up the murders of Faith and Lily to get the CM caught...or all three of them were really working on trying to get out from underneath the CM and he found out and told Georgie to "take care of it"...most of us even know what that usually implies in their line of work, but that phrase is just vague enough to instill reasonable doubt due to the ambiguity of meaning. Nerissa's part may have been unknown to CM...i can't remember clearly, i'd have to play it again....but either way, Nerissa seized this opportunity and used it to her advantage to get out and get the CM out of control.
Personally, I strangled the CM to death at his hideout after whoopin Bloody Mary's arse. He was pulling the strings and essentially terrorzing Fabletown. The CM DID try to have Bigby killed by Dee and Dum-to which i ripped out one of their throats...and sent Blood Mary after him-twice...and black mailed Icabod Crane to leave to country...those aren't really the actions of someone who's innocent and conspired against
The Crooked Man is guilty on other things, but not the murders of Faith and Lilly. Georgie killed them after misinterpreting the Crooked Man's words. Just like he said, they're all free to make their own decisions. You said you ripped out Dum's throat and choked the Crooked Man. Your own violent decisions justify their violent actions against Bigby.
After playing it again, I believe Georgie, the Jersey Devil and 'Nerissa'. JD says that if those girls are dead it's because CM wanted them dead. CM isn't going to do anything to incriminate himself, he's a businessman, he's smarter than that. Georgie was the scapegoat set up to take the fall should CM's name be linked to anything. You saw how quickly CM through his employees under the bus. All the Fables are doing Shady shit and CM has something on everyone-that's why they protect him. They don't want to have to air their own dirty laundry. No one protected CM because they wanted to protect. Take Aunty Greenleaf...CM helps get her her magical tree and probably felt obligated to help the CM because having the tree allowed her to make her non-black market Glamours (I say they're not illegal b/c as Bufkin stated, it's frowned upon, but there aren't any laws forbidding it.) JD doesn't seem like a nice guy and appears keeps his mouth shut so he can take the property from all the Fables the CM collects from; he closes his eyes and takes his cut, to use Georgie's words. 'Nerissa' did lie about what she heard the CM say, but as she said, she wasn't going to see him get off on a technicality. Faith found the photo of Crane sleeping with someone that he was allowing to use these 'black market' Glamours and CM didn't want anything to be traced backed to eat the expense of of other Fables. Also, Vivian says while they're at CM's place "you're all just going to let him take the fall?" or something akin to that....all the evidence is circumstancial, bu I don't think CM planned of Vivian dying...she needed to stay alive to keep the girls quiet; CM didn't plan on 'Nerissa' coming to his so-called hearing. Everytime one of CM's perps behaved violently, it was a misunderstanding...at some point it's more than just a coincidence