It depends on what you mean about horrible leader. He pissed off only three houses, Freys, Karstarks and Boltons. The remaining houses kept following him, Does that make him a bad leader?
Considering those houses were the most powerful ones of the North and with Joffrey now as an enemy it doesn't put him in a good position and he knew it. He risked all his men's lives and a chance of bettering his army for the sake of a woman. I mean look how easy it was for the Freys to dismantle his army thats got to tell you something
It depends on what you mean about horrible leader. He pissed off only three houses, Freys, Karstarks and Boltons. The remaining houses kept following him, Does that make him a bad leader?
There is a differences between fighting on a battlefield and inviting Robb's army as guest, get them too drunk to fight before stabbing them in the back.
Considering those houses were the most powerful ones of the North and with Joffrey now as an enemy it doesn't put him in a good position and… more he knew it. He risked all his men's lives and a chance of bettering his army for the sake of a woman. I mean look how easy it was for the Freys to dismantle his army thats got to tell you something
I don't think you're right, he never had a chance to win the war without one of the other 'kings' and Robb said that himself. That's the reason he tried to get Renly on his side, and after that was thrown out of the window he hoped to delay Tywin's army long enough in the Riverlands for Stannis to do the job he couldn't. After Stannis lost Robb had no choice but to abandon all his gained territories in the Westerlands and march back north to throw the Ironborn back to the sea.
The reason he needed Walder Frey then was to secure his passage back to his lands and to make sure he won't attack him in his rear whille he'll take Moat Cailin.
Ramsay wasn't a fool he was determined and cunning. Ramsay didn't get his own men killed. This isn't a discussion of morals its a discussion of leadership. Ramsay took over multiple villages and always stayed the course with his plans Robb was easily distracted by one woman. Robb's could have been prevented in many situations had he thought about things but he never did
Ramsay practically commited genocide numerous times.
Robb had a good chance of winning the North's freedom, he didn't walk anyone into ge… morenocide, they all followed him because they believed in his cause.
This cannot be said about the ironborn in Moat Cailin, nor about the ironborn at Winterfell who were betrayed and slaughtered by the Bastard.
I would have loved to have seen him attack Moat Cailin, since it is said that the castle is a formidable castle that is designed to resist any invaders from the south.
I don't think you're right, he never had a chance to win the war without one of the other 'kings' and Robb said that himself. That's the rea… moreson he tried to get Renly on his side, and after that was thrown out of the window he hoped to delay Tywin's army long enough in the Riverlands for Stannis to do the job he couldn't. After Stannis lost Robb had no choice but to abandon all his gained territories in the Westerlands and march back north to throw the Ironborn back to the sea.
The reason he needed Walder Frey then was to secure his passage back to his lands and to make sure he won't attack him in his rear whille he'll take Moat Cailin.
I'm still dumbfounded that Robb didn't think Frey one of the most brutal people in the North wouldn't be at all pissed by him bringing his clearly pregnant wife there just to shit on the fact that he didn't marry Frey's daughter against everyone's advice
There is a differences between fighting on a battlefield and inviting Robb's army as guest, get them too drunk to fight before stabbing them in the back.
Rob's army was the strongest in the North btw only ones willing to mess with them were the Lannisters and the Lannisters were getting messed up by their small numbers since a majority of their army are Sellswords. I doubt the Frey's would farewell if they took them head on.
Considering those houses were the most powerful ones of the North and with Joffrey now as an enemy it doesn't put him in a good position and… more he knew it. He risked all his men's lives and a chance of bettering his army for the sake of a woman. I mean look how easy it was for the Freys to dismantle his army thats got to tell you something
I'm still dumbfounded that Robb didn't think Frey one of the most brutal people in the North wouldn't be at all pissed by him bringing his c… morelearly pregnant wife there just to shit on the fact that he didn't marry Frey's daughter against everyone's advice
They outsmarted them at The Red Wedding. Frey threw the line and Robb took the bait. Numbers add up The Boltons own a very large part of the North and now allied with the Freys, Karstarks and The Lannisters little Robby was fucked
Rob's army was the strongest in the North btw only ones willing to mess with them were the Lannisters and the Lannisters were getting messed… more up by their small numbers since a majority of their army are Sellswords. I doubt the Frey's would farewell if they took them head on.
Well the thing is no one expected them to be that angry about it enough to kill off the last of the known Stark's. It's not like the Freys benefited from the death of the starks. Im pretty sure the Starks were just as shocked as the readers of the story and viewers of the TV show when the Red wedding occurs. Its just completely unexpected for something of that measure to happen. Maybe some ill will but nothing of that magnitude.
They would of been better off with the Stark's since the lannister's come to take the riverlands later on in "A Feast for Crows".
I'm still dumbfounded that Robb didn't think Frey one of the most brutal people in the North wouldn't be at all pissed by him bringing his c… morelearly pregnant wife there just to shit on the fact that he didn't marry Frey's daughter against everyone's advice
I doubt he had been able to take moat cailin it has never been taken from the South, and when Lannister and Tyrell troups comes knocking on the Freys gates i doubt that Walder Frey would had tried to stop them
I would have loved to have seen him attack Moat Cailin, since it is said that the castle is a formidable castle that is designed to resist any invaders from the south.
He was tactically brilliant (he won every battle), but he was a really bad strategist (he lost the war). Any warlord worth his salt knows that kins come before strangers, because your kins are your first and last line of defense. So when he executed Lord Karstock over the lives of two minor Lannistors, his fate was sealed.
If he did not execute his own kin and lose half of his most loyal army, he would have no need for Walder Frey's army, nor would Bolton have dared to rebel.
He was tactically brilliant (he won every battle), but he was a really bad strategist (he lost the war). Any warlord worth his salt knows t… morehat kins come before strangers, because your kins are your first and last line of defense. So when he executed Lord Karstock over the lives of two minor Lannistors, his fate was sealed.
If he did not execute his own kin and lose half of his most loyal army, he would have no need for Walder Frey's army, nor would Bolton have dared to rebel.
That was only because half his army went home, so he needed to replace his losses with a political marriage. When his army was whole, he was able to give Frey the finger. That was why Frey ended him.
His two fatal mistakes was basically not keeping his dick inside his pants when he was supposed to, and punishing someone who had half his army for killing some stupid Lannister kids :P
But you defend Ramsay Snow? :P
Robb was a good leader, yet bound by his family's honor, which gets you killed in 'Game of Thrones'. Had S… moreansa said what she was really thinking, her head would have been on a spike an hour later. Same goes for everyone else in King's Landing.
I know he broke his oath (and lost some of his honor) when marrying Talisa, and that was his one big mistake. You don't cross Walder Frey. Their words are unknown, but I bet they are either 'Do Not Cross Us' or 'We Take Our Toll'.
His other mistake was killing Karstark. Yes, the man was a bloody idiot who killed their wards, but he still held half of Robb's army.
That being said, Robb was still a million times better than Ramsay Snow :P
When Rob killed Rickard Karstark only the Karstark forces left him not half his army, and karstarks forces where only 2300 strong minus the dead,not even when he lost the almost 4000 frey Soldiers and Knights did he lose half his army.
That was only because half his army went home, so he needed to replace his losses with a political marriage. When his army was whole, he was able to give Frey the finger. That was why Frey ended him.
I'm still dumbfounded that Robb didn't think Frey one of the most brutal people in the North wouldn't be at all pissed by him bringing his c… morelearly pregnant wife there just to shit on the fact that he didn't marry Frey's daughter against everyone's advice
First of all, the only ones he pissed off were the Karstarks, Freys, and Roose Bolton, not the whole North. And he wasn't stupid for getting… more Joffrey pissed, Robb had every right to get mad at him.
He was a great leader who made one fatal mistake, and that was breaking his promise to the Freys.
Well, my comments are only based on the TV series. And in the TV show they made a bunch of references about how he lost half his army by executing Karstock.
And I refuse to read the book because I do not want to spoil it, Lol.
When Rob killed Rickard Karstark only the Karstark forces left him not half his army, and karstarks forces where only 2300 strong minus the dead,not even when he lost the almost 4000 frey Soldiers and Knights did he lose half his army.
I think it's worth mentioning that Robb had wanted ships to carry his army, however his aunt Lyssa never answered any of his letters; even the ones Catelyn sent regarding there dying father Lord Hostner Tully.
I don't think you're right, he never had a chance to win the war without one of the other 'kings' and Robb said that himself. That's the rea… moreson he tried to get Renly on his side, and after that was thrown out of the window he hoped to delay Tywin's army long enough in the Riverlands for Stannis to do the job he couldn't. After Stannis lost Robb had no choice but to abandon all his gained territories in the Westerlands and march back north to throw the Ironborn back to the sea.
The reason he needed Walder Frey then was to secure his passage back to his lands and to make sure he won't attack him in his rear whille he'll take Moat Cailin.
I dont remember that but it has been a while since i read the part of the books where Rob is alive, but then he would have had to march his army into the vale.
I think it's worth mentioning that Robb had wanted ships to carry his army, however his aunt Lyssa never answered any of his letters; even the ones Catelyn sent regarding there dying father Lord Hostner Tully.
Yes but when they say "he lost half his army" it's just something people say, it doesn't actually mean he lost exactly half his army. Now if they had said "he had 18,000 soldiers, 9.000 of which were Karstark's. Then yes he would've lost half his army. However this begs the question as to why Karstark would have more soldiers in his army alone, than any of the other houses and even his liege lord! That would mean that Lord Karstark's numbers are only equalled when all of the other northern houses combine there army! You can't tell me that Lord Karstark had more soldiers because he brought all of his men, that would leave Karhold undefended!
Well, my comments are only based on the TV series. And in the TV show they made a bunch of references about how he lost half his army by executing Karstock.
And I refuse to read the book because I do not want to spoil it, Lol.
Robb is no kinslayer. Only the Karstarks themselves belive they still have the Starks blood whille in truth they are entirely seperated family by now.
If Robb is a kinslayer then Robert Baratheon's also one for killing Rhaegar(and he's not).
That was only because half his army went home, so he needed to replace his losses with a political marriage. When his army was whole, he was able to give Frey the finger. That was why Frey ended him.
I see your point. But I am no minder-reader, so when somebody says "I lost half my army", I take him at his word.
Also, my general gist still stands, i.e. the TV show appears to show that Rob Stark had lost an enormous amount of men, and that forced Rob to kowtow to Walder Frey and even tolerate Frey's umbrage towards his wife. And in such a weakened state, the Lannisters were able to plot with Frey and Bolton to kill him.
Again, the books might have more detail. And I will probably read it after the show ends.
Yes but when they say "he lost half his army" it's just something people say, it doesn't actually mean he lost exactly half his army. Now i… moref they had said "he had 18,000 soldiers, 9.000 of which were Karstark's. Then yes he would've lost half his army. However this begs the question as to why Karstark would have more soldiers in his army alone, than any of the other houses and even his liege lord! That would mean that Lord Karstark's numbers are only equalled when all of the other northern houses combine there army! You can't tell me that Lord Karstark had more soldiers because he brought all of his men, that would leave Karhold undefended!
Robb is no kinslayer. Only the Karstarks themselves belive they still have the Starks blood whille in truth they are entirely seperated family by now.
If Robb is a kinslayer then Robert Baratheon's also one for killing Rhaegar(and he's not).
Yes either way there was a risk involved. If he had gone to The Vale, then he would most likely have had to battle the mountain tribes (who had acquired better weapons). However if he had succeeded in reaching The Vale, then he would've been able to move his troops to the north. This would mean that he could attack Motte Cailn from the north which would've been a lot easier than trying to take it from the south.
It's also worth remembering that the north is their homeland and they know it better than anyone else. The Iron Islander's real strength was in their ships and don't forget they were already in chaos because Balon had died. If Robb wanted to try and make amends with Walder Frey, he could've then invited him to Winterfell and have the wedding there (I'm not saying this idea would definitely work, it's dicey at best) and yes I know that at this point Winterfell needs to be restored, but it would've been to Robb's advantage to have the wedding take place on his own land and his own terms.
I dont remember that but it has been a while since i read the part of the books where Rob is alive, but then he would have had to march his army into the vale.
Yes the books are definitely worth a read, you also get the benefit of the different POV (Point of View) of some of the characters. Don't get me wrong I enjoy watching the show, it's quite entertaining. However I think the books themselves do the story the most justice.
I see your point. But I am no minder-reader, so when somebody says "I lost half my army", I take him at his word.
Also, my general gist … morestill stands, i.e. the TV show appears to show that Rob Stark had lost an enormous amount of men, and that forced Rob to kowtow to Walder Frey and even tolerate Frey's umbrage towards his wife. And in such a weakened state, the Lannisters were able to plot with Frey and Bolton to kill him.
Again, the books might have more detail. And I will probably read it after the show ends.
Actually, that line of thought is not 100% correct. Karstarks simply name themselves as such, they are still Starks by blood. Granted, due to marrying into various other families their "Stark" blood diminished, but they are still pretty much Starks.
Robb is no kinslayer. Only the Karstarks themselves belive they still have the Starks blood whille in truth they are entirely seperated family by now.
If Robb is a kinslayer then Robert Baratheon's also one for killing Rhaegar(and he's not).
Uh everyone was with him when he declared war, and they were fine with the risk. All of them were sick of the Lannisters. It was later in the war when mistakes were made that the Karstarks and Freys turned against him and Roose Bolton lost interest in him.
Sorry that Robb doesn't rape little girls or have parents of incest since those are kind of characters you like Clemenem but Robb was a good leader, he just made some fatal mistakes.
Its not about whether it was right its if it was smart and it still wasn't no matter what Robb fanboys try to substitute him being right for… more declaring war on Joffrey with him putting himself and everyone else at risk. The Boltons, Freys, Karstarks are not people you want against you. This wasn't surprising in the least
If I’m not mistaken, Robb’s strategy wasn’t a frontal attack against Moat Cailin, but to move some troops around it with the help of the crannogmen. This would give him a force to assault from the North too.
I doubt he had been able to take moat cailin it has never been taken from the South, and when Lannister and Tyrell troups comes knocking on the Freys gates i doubt that Walder Frey would had tried to stop them
His plans weren't distracted by one women, his oath and honor were. Otherwise, he was always on track for the war and who/when they were gonna hit next. The majority of his men liked him and followed him since they saw he was a capable leader.
Ramsay wasn't a fool he was determined and cunning. Ramsay didn't get his own men killed. This isn't a discussion of morals its a discussion… more of leadership. Ramsay took over multiple villages and always stayed the course with his plans Robb was easily distracted by one woman. Robb's could have been prevented in many situations had he thought about things but he never did
Yes either way there was a risk involved. If he had gone to The Vale, then he would most likely have had to battle the mountain tribes (who… more had acquired better weapons). However if he had succeeded in reaching The Vale, then he would've been able to move his troops to the north. This would mean that he could attack Motte Cailn from the north which would've been a lot easier than trying to take it from the south.
It's also worth remembering that the north is their homeland and they know it better than anyone else. The Iron Islander's real strength was in their ships and don't forget they were already in chaos because Balon had died. If Robb wanted to try and make amends with Walder Frey, he could've then invited him to Winterfell and have the wedding there (I'm not saying this idea would definitely work, it's dicey at best) and yes I know that at this point Winterfell needs to be restored, but it would've been to Robb's advantage to have the wedding take place on his own land and his own terms.
If I’m not mistaken, Robb’s strategy wasn’t a frontal attack against Moat Cailin, but to move some troops around it with the help of the crannogmen. This would give him a force to assault from the North too.
Personally I think Robb was a good man and a good leader, yes he made mistakes; but so did some of the so called experienced ones! The thing to remember is that it wasn't just one thing that lead to his down fall.
King in the North
I think the first mistake was going with the hype of the other lords and declaring himself King in the North. Don't get me wrong I can see why he would be persuaded to do this, let's not forget that Aeyrs the Mad King had tortured his grandfather Lord Rickard and his uncle Brandon to death! Now he is faced with Joffery another cruel king. I think it would've been better if he had chosen to support one of the other would be kings or even not gone to war at all. I imagine war would've erupted anyway once Robb failed to swear fealty to Joffrey, however at least he would've been defending the north. He could've then appealed to Renly for aid in defending the north, this would've given Renly the perfect opportunity to aid the north and thus earn some respect from the northerner's. This would've been a step in the right direction for them joining forces against the Lannisters. He could've further cemented the alliance by promising to marry Sansa to a Tyrell.
Sending Theon Back to the Iron Isles
Robb knew that having ships would be a definite advantage and this is where Theon comes into play. The idea was that Theon would return home to win his father to Robb's cause by providing ships and people to man them. This sounds good in theory, however Theon was taken from his home some 10 years ago (iirc) and has forgotten the Iron Born way. Theon suggested this idea and thinks himself very cunning. Theon thinks that he will return home to Pyke, his family will welcome him back with open arms, he'll present Robb's offer to "make him a king, to give him a crown. In doing so Theon thinks that when Balon dies, as his only living son he will become King after him. However Balon baulks at the idea of being given a crown. He tells Theon that he will pay the iron price and take what he wants. Things haven't gone as Theon imagined it would and now he seeks to prove himself to his estranged family. This is what leads to him taking Winterfell.
Jamie Lannister
Ok so the capture of Jamie Lannister was an advantage for Robb. He has taken a key person from the Lannister army and the loss of Jamie would've been a blow to the Lannister armies' overarll moral. Not to mention they have taken a formidable warrior off the field of battle, this would also help the moral of Robb's own troops who were most likely afraid of facing him on the battle field. They also now have a very good bargaining chip, as Jamie is Tywin's favourite son and the one he wants to make his heir (even though he one of the King's Guard). They had hoped to trade Jamie for Sansa and Arya. Unfortunately in the attempt to capture Jamie, he managed to kill Rickard Karstark's sons who were acting as body guards for Robb. As you would imagine Lord Karstark wants to exact his revenge on Jamie (he wants his head). Of course if Robb did this then he would lose a valuable bargaining chip and the Lannisters might kill one of his sisters in retaliation. No Jamie is more valuable to him alive. Then news of what has transpired at Winterfell reaches them. Catelyn realises that it is only a matter of time before the discontent in the camp reaches boiling point before someone actually manages to kill Jamie. She thinks both Bran and Rickon are dead and she desperately wants to avoid losing both Sansa and Arya too, so she releases Jamie and sends Brienne to exchange him for the girls. This is all done without Robb's knowledge. This leads to Rickard Karstark killing the Lannister boys Martin and Willem. Now you might say he still shouldn't have beheaded him and from a tactical point of view it wasn't the best course of action, however it's also worth noting that Rickard has become a liability. I think Robb would've done better to put Rickard in a holding cell and appoint one of the other Karstarks to lead their men.
Not marrying a Frey
It's certainly true that by not keeping his promise, to marry a Frey girl. This resulted in angering Walder Frey and thus losing a large part of his army. However Walder Frey could've still betrayed him even if he had made good on his promise. Let's say for example that Robb decided to turn back to retake the North, without any ships at his disposal he has to travel past the twins again. So as he will have to pass in that direction anyway, it would only make sense to pick a bride from one of Walder's daughters, have the wedding and the bedding and then the next day set off for the north. What is there to stop Walder from killing him after the bedding anyway! Now you might be thinking "hey doesn't he want his grandchild to be a king/queen one day"? Yes he might have, but without the allegiance of the other houses Robb being able to keep the north seems increasingly unlikely. Putting all his eggs into one basket would be foolish for Walder Frey. This way his daughter becomes the Lady of Winterfell and if she had become pregnant she would've been carrying the heir to Winterfell. Even if she wasn't it would be an easy thing for Walder to get a baby and claim she had given birth to Robb's son (well it only makes sense that if you're going to produce a fake heir to make sure you pick a baby boy). This way he would still be in the good books with the Lannister while still holding a stronger claim to Winterfell than anyone else. I think the smart thing for Robb, would've been to send word to Walder that he was ready to choose his bride and that he intended that they hold the wedding at Riverrun so that the wedding could be witnessed by more people (including Walder Frey's own liege Lord's family the Tullys) He could've sent men to deliver the message and also to escort Walder and his daughters to Riverrun, he could then pick which one he wanted to marry. The rest would then be present to witness the wedding. Unfortunately he bedded Jeyne Westerling (the Westerlings are bannermen to the Lannisters!) who had given him comfort following the news of Bran and Rickon's deaths. I'm not saying that he wouldn't have done it anyway, but thinking that both his little brothers had been killed because he wasn't there to protect them; certainly helped make him vulnerable and less able to resist.
Comments
It depends on what you mean about horrible leader. He pissed off only three houses, Freys, Karstarks and Boltons. The remaining houses kept following him, Does that make him a bad leader?
Ramsay practically commited genocide numerous times.
Robb had a good chance of winning the North's freedom, he didn't walk anyone into genocide, they all followed him because they believed in his cause.
This cannot be said about the ironborn in Moat Cailin, nor about the ironborn at Winterfell who were betrayed and slaughtered by the Bastard.
Robb actually could of won the north if he allied with the Freys. Stark was kicking Lannister ass. His only fuck up was not Marrying a Frey.
Considering those houses were the most powerful ones of the North and with Joffrey now as an enemy it doesn't put him in a good position and he knew it. He risked all his men's lives and a chance of bettering his army for the sake of a woman. I mean look how easy it was for the Freys to dismantle his army thats got to tell you something
There is a differences between fighting on a battlefield and inviting Robb's army as guest, get them too drunk to fight before stabbing them in the back.
I don't think you're right, he never had a chance to win the war without one of the other 'kings' and Robb said that himself. That's the reason he tried to get Renly on his side, and after that was thrown out of the window he hoped to delay Tywin's army long enough in the Riverlands for Stannis to do the job he couldn't. After Stannis lost Robb had no choice but to abandon all his gained territories in the Westerlands and march back north to throw the Ironborn back to the sea.
The reason he needed Walder Frey then was to secure his passage back to his lands and to make sure he won't attack him in his rear whille he'll take Moat Cailin.
Ramsay wasn't a fool he was determined and cunning. Ramsay didn't get his own men killed. This isn't a discussion of morals its a discussion of leadership. Ramsay took over multiple villages and always stayed the course with his plans Robb was easily distracted by one woman. Robb's could have been prevented in many situations had he thought about things but he never did
I would have loved to have seen him attack Moat Cailin, since it is said that the castle is a formidable castle that is designed to resist any invaders from the south.
I'm still dumbfounded that Robb didn't think Frey one of the most brutal people in the North wouldn't be at all pissed by him bringing his clearly pregnant wife there just to shit on the fact that he didn't marry Frey's daughter against everyone's advice
Rob's army was the strongest in the North btw only ones willing to mess with them were the Lannisters and the Lannisters were getting messed up by their small numbers since a majority of their army are Sellswords. I doubt the Frey's would farewell if they took them head on.
The Freys is a house from the Riverlands, not the North.
They outsmarted them at The Red Wedding. Frey threw the line and Robb took the bait. Numbers add up The Boltons own a very large part of the North and now allied with the Freys, Karstarks and The Lannisters little Robby was fucked
Well the thing is no one expected them to be that angry about it enough to kill off the last of the known Stark's. It's not like the Freys benefited from the death of the starks. Im pretty sure the Starks were just as shocked as the readers of the story and viewers of the TV show when the Red wedding occurs. Its just completely unexpected for something of that measure to happen. Maybe some ill will but nothing of that magnitude.
They would of been better off with the Stark's since the lannister's come to take the riverlands later on in "A Feast for Crows".
I doubt he had been able to take moat cailin it has never been taken from the South, and when Lannister and Tyrell troups comes knocking on the Freys gates i doubt that Walder Frey would had tried to stop them
He was tactically brilliant (he won every battle), but he was a really bad strategist (he lost the war). Any warlord worth his salt knows that kins come before strangers, because your kins are your first and last line of defense. So when he executed Lord Karstock over the lives of two minor Lannistors, his fate was sealed.
If he did not execute his own kin and lose half of his most loyal army, he would have no need for Walder Frey's army, nor would Bolton have dared to rebel.
He did need Walder freys army he needed all the reinforcements he could get.
That was only because half his army went home, so he needed to replace his losses with a political marriage. When his army was whole, he was able to give Frey the finger. That was why Frey ended him.
His two fatal mistakes was basically not keeping his dick inside his pants when he was supposed to, and punishing someone who had half his army for killing some stupid Lannister kids :P
When Rob killed Rickard Karstark only the Karstark forces left him not half his army, and karstarks forces where only 2300 strong minus the dead,not even when he lost the almost 4000 frey Soldiers and Knights did he lose half his army.
Yes in the show he bring her to the wedding with him, however in the books he leaves her behind at Riverrun.
He never pissed of the Boltons. What Roose did wasn’t personal. He just saw the chance and took it before someone else did.
Well, my comments are only based on the TV series. And in the TV show they made a bunch of references about how he lost half his army by executing Karstock.
And I refuse to read the book because I do not want to spoil it, Lol.
I think it's worth mentioning that Robb had wanted ships to carry his army, however his aunt Lyssa never answered any of his letters; even the ones Catelyn sent regarding there dying father Lord Hostner Tully.
I dont remember that but it has been a while since i read the part of the books where Rob is alive, but then he would have had to march his army into the vale.
Yes but when they say "he lost half his army" it's just something people say, it doesn't actually mean he lost exactly half his army. Now if they had said "he had 18,000 soldiers, 9.000 of which were Karstark's. Then yes he would've lost half his army. However this begs the question as to why Karstark would have more soldiers in his army alone, than any of the other houses and even his liege lord! That would mean that Lord Karstark's numbers are only equalled when all of the other northern houses combine there army! You can't tell me that Lord Karstark had more soldiers because he brought all of his men, that would leave Karhold undefended!
Robb is no kinslayer. Only the Karstarks themselves belive they still have the Starks blood whille in truth they are entirely seperated family by now.
If Robb is a kinslayer then Robert Baratheon's also one for killing Rhaegar(and he's not).
I see your point. But I am no minder-reader, so when somebody says "I lost half my army", I take him at his word.
Also, my general gist still stands, i.e. the TV show appears to show that Rob Stark had lost an enormous amount of men, and that forced Rob to kowtow to Walder Frey and even tolerate Frey's umbrage towards his wife. And in such a weakened state, the Lannisters were able to plot with Frey and Bolton to kill him.
Again, the books might have more detail. And I will probably read it after the show ends.
Who has said he is a kinslayer.
Well.. the guy I was quoting obviously(DifangDuana)
Sorry i did not see that.
Yes either way there was a risk involved. If he had gone to The Vale, then he would most likely have had to battle the mountain tribes (who had acquired better weapons). However if he had succeeded in reaching The Vale, then he would've been able to move his troops to the north. This would mean that he could attack Motte Cailn from the north which would've been a lot easier than trying to take it from the south.
It's also worth remembering that the north is their homeland and they know it better than anyone else. The Iron Islander's real strength was in their ships and don't forget they were already in chaos because Balon had died. If Robb wanted to try and make amends with Walder Frey, he could've then invited him to Winterfell and have the wedding there (I'm not saying this idea would definitely work, it's dicey at best) and yes I know that at this point Winterfell needs to be restored, but it would've been to Robb's advantage to have the wedding take place on his own land and his own terms.
Yes the books are definitely worth a read, you also get the benefit of the different POV (Point of View) of some of the characters. Don't get me wrong I enjoy watching the show, it's quite entertaining. However I think the books themselves do the story the most justice.
Actually, that line of thought is not 100% correct. Karstarks simply name themselves as such, they are still Starks by blood. Granted, due to marrying into various other families their "Stark" blood diminished, but they are still pretty much Starks.
So, yeah, Robb is a knislayer.
Uh everyone was with him when he declared war, and they were fine with the risk. All of them were sick of the Lannisters. It was later in the war when mistakes were made that the Karstarks and Freys turned against him and Roose Bolton lost interest in him.
Sorry that Robb doesn't rape little girls or have parents of incest since those are kind of characters you like Clemenem but Robb was a good leader, he just made some fatal mistakes.
True, I guess "pissed off" was the wrong word.
If I’m not mistaken, Robb’s strategy wasn’t a frontal attack against Moat Cailin, but to move some troops around it with the help of the crannogmen. This would give him a force to assault from the North too.
His plans weren't distracted by one women, his oath and honor were. Otherwise, he was always on track for the war and who/when they were gonna hit next. The majority of his men liked him and followed him since they saw he was a capable leader.
All this is true but then he would have left the riverlands in the lannisters hands which is a part of his kingdom.
It had been the only way for him to take moat cailin.
Personally I think Robb was a good man and a good leader, yes he made mistakes; but so did some of the so called experienced ones! The thing to remember is that it wasn't just one thing that lead to his down fall.
King in the North
I think the first mistake was going with the hype of the other lords and declaring himself King in the North. Don't get me wrong I can see why he would be persuaded to do this, let's not forget that Aeyrs the Mad King had tortured his grandfather Lord Rickard and his uncle Brandon to death! Now he is faced with Joffery another cruel king. I think it would've been better if he had chosen to support one of the other would be kings or even not gone to war at all. I imagine war would've erupted anyway once Robb failed to swear fealty to Joffrey, however at least he would've been defending the north. He could've then appealed to Renly for aid in defending the north, this would've given Renly the perfect opportunity to aid the north and thus earn some respect from the northerner's. This would've been a step in the right direction for them joining forces against the Lannisters. He could've further cemented the alliance by promising to marry Sansa to a Tyrell.
Sending Theon Back to the Iron Isles
Robb knew that having ships would be a definite advantage and this is where Theon comes into play. The idea was that Theon would return home to win his father to Robb's cause by providing ships and people to man them. This sounds good in theory, however Theon was taken from his home some 10 years ago (iirc) and has forgotten the Iron Born way. Theon suggested this idea and thinks himself very cunning. Theon thinks that he will return home to Pyke, his family will welcome him back with open arms, he'll present Robb's offer to "make him a king, to give him a crown. In doing so Theon thinks that when Balon dies, as his only living son he will become King after him. However Balon baulks at the idea of being given a crown. He tells Theon that he will pay the iron price and take what he wants. Things haven't gone as Theon imagined it would and now he seeks to prove himself to his estranged family. This is what leads to him taking Winterfell.
Jamie Lannister
Ok so the capture of Jamie Lannister was an advantage for Robb. He has taken a key person from the Lannister army and the loss of Jamie would've been a blow to the Lannister armies' overarll moral. Not to mention they have taken a formidable warrior off the field of battle, this would also help the moral of Robb's own troops who were most likely afraid of facing him on the battle field. They also now have a very good bargaining chip, as Jamie is Tywin's favourite son and the one he wants to make his heir (even though he one of the King's Guard). They had hoped to trade Jamie for Sansa and Arya. Unfortunately in the attempt to capture Jamie, he managed to kill Rickard Karstark's sons who were acting as body guards for Robb. As you would imagine Lord Karstark wants to exact his revenge on Jamie (he wants his head). Of course if Robb did this then he would lose a valuable bargaining chip and the Lannisters might kill one of his sisters in retaliation. No Jamie is more valuable to him alive. Then news of what has transpired at Winterfell reaches them. Catelyn realises that it is only a matter of time before the discontent in the camp reaches boiling point before someone actually manages to kill Jamie. She thinks both Bran and Rickon are dead and she desperately wants to avoid losing both Sansa and Arya too, so she releases Jamie and sends Brienne to exchange him for the girls. This is all done without Robb's knowledge. This leads to Rickard Karstark killing the Lannister boys Martin and Willem. Now you might say he still shouldn't have beheaded him and from a tactical point of view it wasn't the best course of action, however it's also worth noting that Rickard has become a liability. I think Robb would've done better to put Rickard in a holding cell and appoint one of the other Karstarks to lead their men.
Not marrying a Frey
It's certainly true that by not keeping his promise, to marry a Frey girl. This resulted in angering Walder Frey and thus losing a large part of his army. However Walder Frey could've still betrayed him even if he had made good on his promise. Let's say for example that Robb decided to turn back to retake the North, without any ships at his disposal he has to travel past the twins again. So as he will have to pass in that direction anyway, it would only make sense to pick a bride from one of Walder's daughters, have the wedding and the bedding and then the next day set off for the north. What is there to stop Walder from killing him after the bedding anyway! Now you might be thinking "hey doesn't he want his grandchild to be a king/queen one day"? Yes he might have, but without the allegiance of the other houses Robb being able to keep the north seems increasingly unlikely. Putting all his eggs into one basket would be foolish for Walder Frey. This way his daughter becomes the Lady of Winterfell and if she had become pregnant she would've been carrying the heir to Winterfell. Even if she wasn't it would be an easy thing for Walder to get a baby and claim she had given birth to Robb's son (well it only makes sense that if you're going to produce a fake heir to make sure you pick a baby boy). This way he would still be in the good books with the Lannister while still holding a stronger claim to Winterfell than anyone else. I think the smart thing for Robb, would've been to send word to Walder that he was ready to choose his bride and that he intended that they hold the wedding at Riverrun so that the wedding could be witnessed by more people (including Walder Frey's own liege Lord's family the Tullys) He could've sent men to deliver the message and also to escort Walder and his daughters to Riverrun, he could then pick which one he wanted to marry. The rest would then be present to witness the wedding. Unfortunately he bedded Jeyne Westerling (the Westerlings are bannermen to the Lannisters!) who had given him comfort following the news of Bran and Rickon's deaths. I'm not saying that he wouldn't have done it anyway, but thinking that both his little brothers had been killed because he wasn't there to protect them; certainly helped make him vulnerable and less able to resist.