Personally I think Robb was a good man and a good leader, yes he made mistakes; but so did some of the so called experienced ones! The thin… moreg to remember is that it wasn't just one thing that lead to his down fall.
King in the North
I think the first mistake was going with the hype of the other lords and declaring himself King in the North. Don't get me wrong I can see why he would be persuaded to do this, let's not forget that Aeyrs the Mad King had tortured his grandfather Lord Rickard and his uncle Brandon to death! Now he is faced with Joffery another cruel king. I think it would've been better if he had chosen to support one of the other would be kings or even not gone to war at all. I imagine war would've erupted anyway once Robb failed to swear fealty to Joffrey, however at least he would've been defending the north. He could've then appealed to Renly for aid in defending the north, this would've given Renly the perfect opport… [view original content]
Thanks I do try my best, although I hadn't intended for it to be that long (definitely the longest post I've ever made on this forum) and kudos to you for actually taking the time to read it =D.
Yes the riverlands are a part of the South but it becomes a part of his kingdom when Edmund swears his allegiance to Rob,and what force could he leave that would be able to stand against the combined might of the Lannisters and the Tyrells.
King in the North: would it be a better strategy to join the fight with one of the other kings? Probably. The problem is that Stannis (the honorable choice), was most probably a lost cause (well… that’s the problem when you don’t know the future). To join Renly would be the smart choice, but would also be wrong since he was the younger brother. Under this conditions, Robb had two honorable choices: fight for Stannis (buying the twincest speech) or declare that the king (Joffrey) commited a crime against the North and break of. Under these circumstances the independence looks like a better choice (since you can always negotiate with Renly later).
Jaime Lannister: About this one, I totally agree. Just adding to the last part, the best course of action would probably have been to arrest Lord Karstark and, after the war, send him to the Wall. Just would be a just and efficient solution. Unfortunately, Robb was a little too much like Stannis and did it by the book.
Not marrying a Frey: Also to add to the end of this one, not only had Robb just received the news about Winterfell, but he was also injured and had Jeyne taking care of him. If I was to bet, I would say that there was a kind of nurse-patient love relationship between them at this first moment. After this, all the plans with the Freys went downhill (not that they could not had ended bad for other reasons, as you pointed out).
Personally I think Robb was a good man and a good leader, yes he made mistakes; but so did some of the so called experienced ones! The thin… moreg to remember is that it wasn't just one thing that lead to his down fall.
King in the North
I think the first mistake was going with the hype of the other lords and declaring himself King in the North. Don't get me wrong I can see why he would be persuaded to do this, let's not forget that Aeyrs the Mad King had tortured his grandfather Lord Rickard and his uncle Brandon to death! Now he is faced with Joffery another cruel king. I think it would've been better if he had chosen to support one of the other would be kings or even not gone to war at all. I imagine war would've erupted anyway once Robb failed to swear fealty to Joffrey, however at least he would've been defending the north. He could've then appealed to Renly for aid in defending the north, this would've given Renly the perfect opport… [view original content]
Yes but at this point even the small folk have taken refuge within the walls of Riverrun. You don't need as many men to defend a keep as you would to launch an attack on one. They would be able to hold off until reinforcements arrived. Failing that, a few men could escape and the others could surrender themselves as hostages.
Even if they had all originally decided to go with Robb back to the north, they could take back Riverrun at a later date after they have regrouped their strength and maybe made new allies. All the fields have been burnt so their are now crops and most if not all of the livestock have probably already been put to the sword. This means that the Lannisters would be relaying on a route to transport food. If they cut off this route the Lannister soldiers have no food. Even with a stock pile of food, that won't last forever when you have a whole host of hungry soldiers to feed! With there dwindling army numbers the Lannisters are not going to want to waste a large number of men trying to hold Riverrun. Especially because they are increasingly aware of the fact that the Tyrells essentially have them at their mercy.
Yes the riverlands are a part of the South but it becomes a part of his kingdom when Edmund swears his allegiance to Rob,and what force could he leave that would be able to stand against the combined might of the Lannisters and the Tyrells.
Thanks! I have to admit, though, I'm kinda surprised. Why would they change that? Did they gave Talisa a larger part in the show than Jeyne in the books?
With regard to Robb's decision to become king in the north, I probably should've been a bit clearer on this. I don't think it was a mistake to want to choose this option, like you say the options for alliance that were in front of him weren't the most appealing. Stannis would've been the honourable choice, but like you say most likely a lost cause. He would most likely end up having to fight against the might of the other southron houses that had allied themselves with Renly. While Renly would've been the smart choice tactically, but dishonourable because he would be usurping the throne from Stannis.
So I agree that honourably the best choice would be to acknowledge that Joffrey had committed a crime against the north and as such separate his kingdom from Joffrey's rule.
Tactically though, he needed more allies.
As for his decision to marry Jeyne, either way he was going to end up dishonouring someone. Jeyne if he had chosen to marry a Frey girl. Or the Freys when he chose to marry Jeyne. Now that you mention it I do remember Robb got injured and she tended to his wounds. I can't help thinking that this was some sort of ploy on her mother's part, I think she wanted Jeyne to seduce Robb. After they got married it was no secret that they were trying to produce and heir. As I remember it, her mother had been giving her "fertility elixirs" which could've in fact been the exact opposite, she could've been giving her moontea!
Just a few brief comments, if I may:
King in the North: would it be a better strategy to join the fight with one of the other kings? Prob… moreably. The problem is that Stannis (the honorable choice), was most probably a lost cause (well… that’s the problem when you don’t know the future). To join Renly would be the smart choice, but would also be wrong since he was the younger brother. Under this conditions, Robb had two honorable choices: fight for Stannis (buying the twincest speech) or declare that the king (Joffrey) commited a crime against the North and break of. Under these circumstances the independence looks like a better choice (since you can always negotiate with Renly later).
Jaime Lannister: About this one, I totally agree. Just adding to the last part, the best course of action would probably have been to arrest Lord Karstark and, after the war, send him to the Wall. Just would be a just and efficient solution. Unfortunately, Ro… [view original content]
With Robb’s march to the North, the Riverlands were mostly abandoned to its own luck. He would not be able to return before the winter and, after that, he would have to wait for the end of it. During this time, the Tyrell army under Tarly’s command would have crushed all the important holdings that resisted (and most would probably surrender).
Not that this was a “bad call” from Robb, there was not much more to be done. Even with his main army, he would not defeat the Tyrells (in fact, he would not even be able to defeat the Lannisters). The war for the Riverlands were already lost. His only option was to retreat to the North (where he would probably be able to resist for a long time – if not forever).
Yes but at this point even the small folk have taken refuge within the walls of Riverrun. You don't need as many men to defend a keep as yo… moreu would to launch an attack on one. They would be able to hold off until reinforcements arrived. Failing that, a few men could escape and the others could surrender themselves as hostages.
Even if they had all originally decided to go with Robb back to the north, they could take back Riverrun at a later date after they have regrouped their strength and maybe made new allies. All the fields have been burnt so their are now crops and most if not all of the livestock have probably already been put to the sword. This means that the Lannisters would be relaying on a route to transport food. If they cut off this route the Lannister soldiers have no food. Even with a stock pile of food, that won't last forever when you have a whole host of hungry soldiers to feed! With there dwindling army numbers the … [view original content]
Well in the books, Robb basically invades their holdings and takes the keep. However he is injured and Jeyne tends to his wounds iirc.
However in the show Robb meets her on the battle field tending the wounded as a medic.
So yes, she is given a bit more of a role in the show, as this actually shows you Robb falling for this girl. Rather than him returning to Riverrun with some random girl he has married. I just don't get why they strayed so far from the story from the books. It was a good story in the show and I like the way her character was portrayed. However in doing so they missed out on the intrigue of Robb essentially marrying the enemy or rather a girl whose family are bannermen to the Lannisters.
Thanks! I have to admit, though, I'm kinda surprised. Why would they change that? Did they gave Talisa a larger part in the show than Jeyne in the books?
Exactly, he had to retreat because the north was now at the mercy of the Iron Islanders. If he had just stood by and done nothing as his people suffered in the north, he would've been a bad king and it would only be a matter of time before the houses who were with him decided to abandon him in an attempt to try and save their own families and homes. He would've lost their loyalty and the highborn and small folk would've suffered even more.
With Robb’s march to the North, the Riverlands were mostly abandoned to its own luck. He would not be able to return before the winter and, … moreafter that, he would have to wait for the end of it. During this time, the Tyrell army under Tarly’s command would have crushed all the important holdings that resisted (and most would probably surrender).
Not that this was a “bad call” from Robb, there was not much more to be done. Even with his main army, he would not defeat the Tyrells (in fact, he would not even be able to defeat the Lannisters). The war for the Riverlands were already lost. His only option was to retreat to the North (where he would probably be able to resist for a long time – if not forever).
Yeah, I don’t trust her mother either. It would not be a surprise if she was consciously trying to cause that. It was a shot in the dark, but she had nothing to lose. And, after the marriage, the moontea would be a good idea since it would keep the alliance with the Starks without turning Jeyne into a matter to be solved by the Lannisters.
Tactically though, he needed more allies.
Well, he tried to make an alliance to Renly after that, so I think that he recognized this need. And, in the end, this would probably be as the best solution for all.
With regard to Robb's decision to become king in the north, I probably should've been a bit clearer on this. I don't think it was a mistak… moree to want to choose this option, like you say the options for alliance that were in front of him weren't the most appealing. Stannis would've been the honourable choice, but like you say most likely a lost cause. He would most likely end up having to fight against the might of the other southron houses that had allied themselves with Renly. While Renly would've been the smart choice tactically, but dishonourable because he would be usurping the throne from Stannis.
So I agree that honourably the best choice would be to acknowledge that Joffrey had committed a crime against the north and as such separate his kingdom from Joffrey's rule.
Tactically though, he needed more allies.
As for his decision to marry Jeyne, either way he was going to end up dishonouring someone. Jeyne if he had chosen to … [view original content]
With regard to Robb's decision to become king in the north, I probably should've been a bit clearer on this. I don't think it was a mistak… moree to want to choose this option, like you say the options for alliance that were in front of him weren't the most appealing. Stannis would've been the honourable choice, but like you say most likely a lost cause. He would most likely end up having to fight against the might of the other southron houses that had allied themselves with Renly. While Renly would've been the smart choice tactically, but dishonourable because he would be usurping the throne from Stannis.
So I agree that honourably the best choice would be to acknowledge that Joffrey had committed a crime against the north and as such separate his kingdom from Joffrey's rule.
Tactically though, he needed more allies.
As for his decision to marry Jeyne, either way he was going to end up dishonouring someone. Jeyne if he had chosen to … [view original content]
I would not say that it was a bigger part, but it had a bigger impact. Since Robb isn’t a POV character in the book, we do not see his relationship with Jeyne (as we see in the show). Also, her part in the Red Weeding is one to be remembered (different from the book were she is not even there). On the other hand, you lose all the intrigue related to her family members.
I personally think that they could have kept what the book did and included the things they improved (Robb’s POV and the Red Wedding).
Thanks! I have to admit, though, I'm kinda surprised. Why would they change that? Did they gave Talisa a larger part in the show than Jeyne in the books?
Thanks again. Now I have to look up the differences between the show and the books. I always assumed they followed the books pretty closely, but apparently I was mistaken.
Well in the books, Robb basically invades their holdings and takes the keep. However he is injured and Jeyne tends to his wounds iirc.
H… moreowever in the show Robb meets her on the battle field tending the wounded as a medic.
So yes, she is given a bit more of a role in the show, as this actually shows you Robb falling for this girl. Rather than him returning to Riverrun with some random girl he has married. I just don't get why they strayed so far from the story from the books. It was a good story in the show and I like the way her character was portrayed. However in doing so they missed out on the intrigue of Robb essentially marrying the enemy or rather a girl whose family are bannermen to the Lannisters.
I don’t remember if he had any clan in his army, but he basically called all his bannermen. He could had probably assembled a bigger army, but he moved south as soon as he could (we must remember that this started as a campaign to recue Ned, so speed was important).
The clans probably take a long time to organize a real troop and are not all that strong in the end.
Thanks again. Now I have to look up the differences between the show and the books. I always assumed they followed the books pretty closely, but apparently I was mistaken.
I do admit that declaring himself as King of the North did isolate potential allies that he could've used to fight the Lannisters. And sending Theon to the Iron Isles created a domino effect that brought an end to his reign as King of the North.
Personally I think Robb was a good man and a good leader, yes he made mistakes; but so did some of the so called experienced ones! The thin… moreg to remember is that it wasn't just one thing that lead to his down fall.
King in the North
I think the first mistake was going with the hype of the other lords and declaring himself King in the North. Don't get me wrong I can see why he would be persuaded to do this, let's not forget that Aeyrs the Mad King had tortured his grandfather Lord Rickard and his uncle Brandon to death! Now he is faced with Joffery another cruel king. I think it would've been better if he had chosen to support one of the other would be kings or even not gone to war at all. I imagine war would've erupted anyway once Robb failed to swear fealty to Joffrey, however at least he would've been defending the north. He could've then appealed to Renly for aid in defending the north, this would've given Renly the perfect opport… [view original content]
Yes I agree, I think you explained that a bit better than I did. Although there are times on the show when I think to myself "why did you do that?" Whereas others make sense and even enhance the story.
I would not say that it was a bigger part, but it had a bigger impact. Since Robb isn’t a POV character in the book, we do not see his relat… moreionship with Jeyne (as we see in the show). Also, her part in the Red Weeding is one to be remembered (different from the book were she is not even there). On the other hand, you lose all the intrigue related to her family members.
I personally think that they could have kept what the book did and included the things they improved (Robb’s POV and the Red Wedding).
The North is a very huge region. 18.000 men was how he was able to gather on such short notices and he couldn't linger long because he only have so much food to feed the army.
Food supplies is always a problem when you are leading armies.
The show took away the irony that Robb, like his father, died because he was trying to do the honorable thing. Robb didn't marry Jeyne for love, but because he slept with her and wanted to protect her honor.
Well in the books, Robb basically invades their holdings and takes the keep. However he is injured and Jeyne tends to his wounds iirc.
H… moreowever in the show Robb meets her on the battle field tending the wounded as a medic.
So yes, she is given a bit more of a role in the show, as this actually shows you Robb falling for this girl. Rather than him returning to Riverrun with some random girl he has married. I just don't get why they strayed so far from the story from the books. It was a good story in the show and I like the way her character was portrayed. However in doing so they missed out on the intrigue of Robb essentially marrying the enemy or rather a girl whose family are bannermen to the Lannisters.
I think that too. There are many things in the show that make me complain for days (especially some characters that they are cutting of), but other things like the scenes with Tywin Lannister, when Jon joins Mance and the assault on the Wall are better done by the show, in my opinion. I wish I could simply mix them to make the perfect one.
Yes I agree, I think you explained that a bit better than I did. Although there are times on the show when I think to myself "why did you do that?" Whereas others make sense and even enhance the story.
The show took away the irony that Robb, like his father, died because he was trying to do the honorable thing. Robb didn't marry Jeyne for love, but because he slept with her and wanted to protect her honor.
Yes, he recognised the need, unfortunately Renly was too over confident and thought he was untouchable. He didn't realise that he needed the north. Even if he had somehow succeeded in obtaining the iron throne, he would've still needed to secure the north. In his arrogance he missed a vital opportunity to win the loyalty of the north.
Yeah, I don’t trust her mother either. It would not be a surprise if she was consciously trying to cause that. It was a shot in the dark, bu… moret she had nothing to lose. And, after the marriage, the moontea would be a good idea since it would keep the alliance with the Starks without turning Jeyne into a matter to be solved by the Lannisters.
Tactically though, he needed more allies.
Well, he tried to make an alliance to Renly after that, so I think that he recognized this need. And, in the end, this would probably be as the best solution for all.
Considering how diplomatic Renly was, I think that he would not ignore the North for long and this would probably end as the show suggested: with Robb as the King “in” the North and the North as a vassal kingdom to the Iron Throne.
Yes, he recognised the need, unfortunately Renly was too over confident and thought he was untouchable. He didn't realise that he needed th… moree north. Even if he had somehow succeeded in obtaining the iron throne, he would've still needed to secure the north. In his arrogance he missed a vital opportunity to win the loyalty of the north.
Yes I think this would've been a likely solution, given Renly's penchant for making friends more so than enemies. Especially if Stannis had somehow died in some battle or other, that would actually make Renly the heir.
Considering how diplomatic Renly was, I think that he would not ignore the North for long and this would probably end as the show suggested: with Robb as the King “in” the North and the North as a vassal kingdom to the Iron Throne.
Robb never wanted to be king and it wasn't his decision really. His bannermen gave him the crown and he couldn't refuse it as the Riverlords also proclaimed him King of the Trident. In fact, Robb was the only one who was proclaimed king by his lords and didn't proclaimed himslef.
I agree that it was a mistake as not Renly nor Stannis would have agreed to his demands for independence (Renly actually agreed to call him "King" as long as he bend his knees to him as 'title like king is just a word').
About Jeyne, it wasn't all that innocent sure, but I belive Robb really loved her after he married her but to be honest I think it was just first love feelings and nothing too real.
Yes I think this would've been a likely solution, given Renly's penchant for making friends more so than enemies. Especially if Stannis had somehow died in some battle or other, that would actually make Renly the heir.
Yes I too wish I could cherry pick bits from the books and bits from the show and combine them. For instance in the show Cerci confronts Tywin with the truth about her children. Whereas in the books it's never revealed, we can only guess as to whether Tywin ever suspected the rumours were true or not. I seem to remember in one of Tyrion's POV chapters he knows about Cerci's flirtation with one of the Kettleblacks iirc (if it was a Kettleblack I think it was Osney) and reflects that maybe he could find a way for Tywin to discover them both abed.
I just kinda feel robbed haha, I really wanted to Cerci and Jamie to get caught in the act by Tywin; I would've loved to see the fallout haha. Maybe Tyrion going with whores wouldn't seem so bad in comparison.
Also in the book Cerci and Jamie are drifting apart, whereas in the show they seem to be as close as ever.
I think that too. There are many things in the show that make me complain for days (especially some characters that they are cutting of), bu… moret other things like the scenes with Tywin Lannister, when Jon joins Mance and the assault on the Wall are better done by the show, in my opinion. I wish I could simply mix them to make the perfect one.
Actually you make a good point, it was the other lords that first suggested this and proclaimed him the King in the North and he's was the only one who didn't' want to take the iron throne, however he must've known that neither one of the brothers would agree to him retaining independence. Not so much out of greed (wanting to rule all seven kingdoms), but for the domino effect that it would most likely have. If Renly or Stannis agreed to allow the north to be an allied kingdom rather than one of the seven kingdoms. Then the other Lords who have descended from kings/queens would be inspired by this and quite possibly decided that they want to be independent too. Then before you know it everyone is back at war again =(.
Robb never wanted to be king and it wasn't his decision really. His bannermen gave him the crown and he couldn't refuse it as the Riverlord… mores also proclaimed him King of the Trident. In fact, Robb was the only one who was proclaimed king by his lords and didn't proclaimed himslef.
I agree that it was a mistake as not Renly nor Stannis would have agreed to his demands for independence (Renly actually agreed to call him "King" as long as he bend his knees to him as 'title like king is just a word').
About Jeyne, it wasn't all that innocent sure, but I belive Robb really loved her after he married her but to be honest I think it was just first love feelings and nothing too real.
Tywin would probably just send Cersei back to Casterly Rock (like Kevan wanted to do). This considering, of course, that he acknowledge that. Another option would be to fake a sudden blindness.
Also in the book Cerci and Jamie are drifting apart, whereas in the show they seem to be as close as ever.
Well, there is still time for this to happen. Even without the Riverlands storyline. And they weren’t at the best terms in the end of season 4.
Yes I too wish I could cherry pick bits from the books and bits from the show and combine them. For instance in the show Cerci confronts Ty… morewin with the truth about her children. Whereas in the books it's never revealed, we can only guess as to whether Tywin ever suspected the rumours were true or not. I seem to remember in one of Tyrion's POV chapters he knows about Cerci's flirtation with one of the Kettleblacks iirc (if it was a Kettleblack I think it was Osney) and reflects that maybe he could find a way for Tywin to discover them both abed.
I just kinda feel robbed haha, I really wanted to Cerci and Jamie to get caught in the act by Tywin; I would've loved to see the fallout haha. Maybe Tyrion going with whores wouldn't seem so bad in comparison.
Also in the book Cerci and Jamie are drifting apart, whereas in the show they seem to be as close as ever.
Robb wasnt stupid just inexperienced. In the books he is what 15-16? And he would've won the war if Tywin lannister wasn't such an evil scheming puss who wouldn't meet him in battle.
I don't know about anyone else here, but I feel a smug satisfaction that Tywin underestimated Robb as a "green boy" and yet he couldn't defeat him in battle. Instead he had to resort to stooping so low as to orchestrate the Red Wedding.
Robb wasnt stupid just inexperienced. In the books he is what 15-16? And he would've won the war if Tywin lannister wasn't such an evil scheming puss who wouldn't meet him in battle.
Outsmarted? Please, it was a cowardly approach because they were too scared to face him in battle. The only sneaky murder that was smart was Joffrey's IMO.
And saying "little Robby was fucked" shows how mature you are deciding to be on this topic
They outsmarted them at The Red Wedding. Frey threw the line and Robb took the bait. Numbers add up The Boltons own a very large part of the North and now allied with the Freys, Karstarks and The Lannisters little Robby was fucked
I'm making a point you don't need to resort to cheap insults. You seem to not understand that a lot of times in war fighting fairly and winning are incompatible. It was effective was it not? Call it whatever you want it still worked and crippled his army significantly. This was the only way to take out Robb and a very clever one it thinned out hundreds of his men and took away the number advantage
Outsmarted? Please, it was a cowardly approach because they were too scared to face him in battle. The only sneaky murder that was smart was Joffrey's IMO.
And saying "little Robby was fucked" shows how mature you are deciding to be on this topic
I don't know about anyone else here, but I feel a smug satisfaction that Tywin underestimated Robb as a "green boy" and yet he couldn't defeat him in battle. Instead he had to resort to stooping so low as to orchestrate the Red Wedding.
I wasn't resorting to cheap insults, you were. "Little Robby was fucked" - you were the one who said that, no?
Anyway, I guess its just a matter of opinion on the Red Wedding. I didn't find it smart or cunning or anything along those lines. Just cowardly, even in terms of war (which I understand that fighting fairly and winning in war aren't always compatible)
I'm making a point you don't need to resort to cheap insults. You seem to not understand that a lot of times in war fighting fairly and winn… moreing are incompatible. It was effective was it not? Call it whatever you want it still worked and crippled his army significantly. This was the only way to take out Robb and a very clever one it thinned out hundreds of his men and took away the number advantage
No he would not have have won the war the reason Tywin did what he did was because he wanted to end the war as quickly as possible. The only chance Rob had was if he had manage to get back to the North and defeat the iron born but he still would not have won the war if he did that it would have ended in a stalemate.
Robb wasnt stupid just inexperienced. In the books he is what 15-16? And he would've won the war if Tywin lannister wasn't such an evil scheming puss who wouldn't meet him in battle.
Comments
The Riverlands are part of the south and I don't believe that he would leave Riverrun totally undefended.
A well-made post, I love it, Hayley.
Thanks I do try my best, although I hadn't intended for it to be that long (definitely the longest post I've ever made on this forum) and kudos to you for actually taking the time to read it =D.
Yes the riverlands are a part of the South but it becomes a part of his kingdom when Edmund swears his allegiance to Rob,and what force could he leave that would be able to stand against the combined might of the Lannisters and the Tyrells.
Just a few brief comments, if I may:
King in the North: would it be a better strategy to join the fight with one of the other kings? Probably. The problem is that Stannis (the honorable choice), was most probably a lost cause (well… that’s the problem when you don’t know the future). To join Renly would be the smart choice, but would also be wrong since he was the younger brother. Under this conditions, Robb had two honorable choices: fight for Stannis (buying the twincest speech) or declare that the king (Joffrey) commited a crime against the North and break of. Under these circumstances the independence looks like a better choice (since you can always negotiate with Renly later).
Jaime Lannister: About this one, I totally agree. Just adding to the last part, the best course of action would probably have been to arrest Lord Karstark and, after the war, send him to the Wall. Just would be a just and efficient solution. Unfortunately, Robb was a little too much like Stannis and did it by the book.
Not marrying a Frey: Also to add to the end of this one, not only had Robb just received the news about Winterfell, but he was also injured and had Jeyne taking care of him. If I was to bet, I would say that there was a kind of nurse-patient love relationship between them at this first moment. After this, all the plans with the Freys went downhill (not that they could not had ended bad for other reasons, as you pointed out).
Yes but at this point even the small folk have taken refuge within the walls of Riverrun. You don't need as many men to defend a keep as you would to launch an attack on one. They would be able to hold off until reinforcements arrived. Failing that, a few men could escape and the others could surrender themselves as hostages.
Even if they had all originally decided to go with Robb back to the north, they could take back Riverrun at a later date after they have regrouped their strength and maybe made new allies. All the fields have been burnt so their are now crops and most if not all of the livestock have probably already been put to the sword. This means that the Lannisters would be relaying on a route to transport food. If they cut off this route the Lannister soldiers have no food. Even with a stock pile of food, that won't last forever when you have a whole host of hungry soldiers to feed! With there dwindling army numbers the Lannisters are not going to want to waste a large number of men trying to hold Riverrun. Especially because they are increasingly aware of the fact that the Tyrells essentially have them at their mercy.
Who's Talisa? Robb married Jeyne Westerling if I remember correctly. Did I miss something?
In the books he marries Jeyne Westerling. However in the show they changed it to Talisa a girl from Volantis.
Thanks! I have to admit, though, I'm kinda surprised. Why would they change that? Did they gave Talisa a larger part in the show than Jeyne in the books?
With regard to Robb's decision to become king in the north, I probably should've been a bit clearer on this. I don't think it was a mistake to want to choose this option, like you say the options for alliance that were in front of him weren't the most appealing. Stannis would've been the honourable choice, but like you say most likely a lost cause. He would most likely end up having to fight against the might of the other southron houses that had allied themselves with Renly. While Renly would've been the smart choice tactically, but dishonourable because he would be usurping the throne from Stannis.
So I agree that honourably the best choice would be to acknowledge that Joffrey had committed a crime against the north and as such separate his kingdom from Joffrey's rule.
Tactically though, he needed more allies.
As for his decision to marry Jeyne, either way he was going to end up dishonouring someone. Jeyne if he had chosen to marry a Frey girl. Or the Freys when he chose to marry Jeyne. Now that you mention it I do remember Robb got injured and she tended to his wounds. I can't help thinking that this was some sort of ploy on her mother's part, I think she wanted Jeyne to seduce Robb. After they got married it was no secret that they were trying to produce and heir. As I remember it, her mother had been giving her "fertility elixirs" which could've in fact been the exact opposite, she could've been giving her moontea!
With Robb’s march to the North, the Riverlands were mostly abandoned to its own luck. He would not be able to return before the winter and, after that, he would have to wait for the end of it. During this time, the Tyrell army under Tarly’s command would have crushed all the important holdings that resisted (and most would probably surrender).
Not that this was a “bad call” from Robb, there was not much more to be done. Even with his main army, he would not defeat the Tyrells (in fact, he would not even be able to defeat the Lannisters). The war for the Riverlands were already lost. His only option was to retreat to the North (where he would probably be able to resist for a long time – if not forever).
Well in the books, Robb basically invades their holdings and takes the keep. However he is injured and Jeyne tends to his wounds iirc.
However in the show Robb meets her on the battle field tending the wounded as a medic.
So yes, she is given a bit more of a role in the show, as this actually shows you Robb falling for this girl. Rather than him returning to Riverrun with some random girl he has married. I just don't get why they strayed so far from the story from the books. It was a good story in the show and I like the way her character was portrayed. However in doing so they missed out on the intrigue of Robb essentially marrying the enemy or rather a girl whose family are bannermen to the Lannisters.
Exactly, he had to retreat because the north was now at the mercy of the Iron Islanders. If he had just stood by and done nothing as his people suffered in the north, he would've been a bad king and it would only be a matter of time before the houses who were with him decided to abandon him in an attempt to try and save their own families and homes. He would've lost their loyalty and the highborn and small folk would've suffered even more.
Yeah, I don’t trust her mother either. It would not be a surprise if she was consciously trying to cause that. It was a shot in the dark, but she had nothing to lose. And, after the marriage, the moontea would be a good idea since it would keep the alliance with the Starks without turning Jeyne into a matter to be solved by the Lannisters.
Well, he tried to make an alliance to Renly after that, so I think that he recognized this need. And, in the end, this would probably be as the best solution for all.
I don't know why Robb didn't try to recruit the mountain clans like Stannis does.
I would not say that it was a bigger part, but it had a bigger impact. Since Robb isn’t a POV character in the book, we do not see his relationship with Jeyne (as we see in the show). Also, her part in the Red Weeding is one to be remembered (different from the book were she is not even there). On the other hand, you lose all the intrigue related to her family members.
I personally think that they could have kept what the book did and included the things they improved (Robb’s POV and the Red Wedding).
Thanks again. Now I have to look up the differences between the show and the books. I always assumed they followed the books pretty closely, but apparently I was mistaken.
I don’t remember if he had any clan in his army, but he basically called all his bannermen. He could had probably assembled a bigger army, but he moved south as soon as he could (we must remember that this started as a campaign to recue Ned, so speed was important).
The clans probably take a long time to organize a real troop and are not all that strong in the end.
They are moving away more each season. This next one… I’m even afraid to think about it.
I do admit that declaring himself as King of the North did isolate potential allies that he could've used to fight the Lannisters. And sending Theon to the Iron Isles created a domino effect that brought an end to his reign as King of the North.
Yes I agree, I think you explained that a bit better than I did. Although there are times on the show when I think to myself "why did you do that?" Whereas others make sense and even enhance the story.
The North is a very huge region. 18.000 men was how he was able to gather on such short notices and he couldn't linger long because he only have so much food to feed the army.
Food supplies is always a problem when you are leading armies.
The show took away the irony that Robb, like his father, died because he was trying to do the honorable thing. Robb didn't marry Jeyne for love, but because he slept with her and wanted to protect her honor.
I think that too. There are many things in the show that make me complain for days (especially some characters that they are cutting of), but other things like the scenes with Tywin Lannister, when Jon joins Mance and the assault on the Wall are better done by the show, in my opinion. I wish I could simply mix them to make the perfect one.
Oh Honor… the old Stark nemesis.
Yes, he recognised the need, unfortunately Renly was too over confident and thought he was untouchable. He didn't realise that he needed the north. Even if he had somehow succeeded in obtaining the iron throne, he would've still needed to secure the north. In his arrogance he missed a vital opportunity to win the loyalty of the north.
Considering how diplomatic Renly was, I think that he would not ignore the North for long and this would probably end as the show suggested: with Robb as the King “in” the North and the North as a vassal kingdom to the Iron Throne.
Yes I think this would've been a likely solution, given Renly's penchant for making friends more so than enemies. Especially if Stannis had somehow died in some battle or other, that would actually make Renly the heir.
Robb never wanted to be king and it wasn't his decision really. His bannermen gave him the crown and he couldn't refuse it as the Riverlords also proclaimed him King of the Trident. In fact, Robb was the only one who was proclaimed king by his lords and didn't proclaimed himslef.
I agree that it was a mistake as not Renly nor Stannis would have agreed to his demands for independence (Renly actually agreed to call him "King" as long as he bend his knees to him as 'title like king is just a word').
About Jeyne, it wasn't all that innocent sure, but I belive Robb really loved her after he married her but to be honest I think it was just first love feelings and nothing too real.
Yes I too wish I could cherry pick bits from the books and bits from the show and combine them. For instance in the show Cerci confronts Tywin with the truth about her children. Whereas in the books it's never revealed, we can only guess as to whether Tywin ever suspected the rumours were true or not. I seem to remember in one of Tyrion's POV chapters he knows about Cerci's flirtation with one of the Kettleblacks iirc (if it was a Kettleblack I think it was Osney) and reflects that maybe he could find a way for Tywin to discover them both abed.
I just kinda feel robbed haha, I really wanted to Cerci and Jamie to get caught in the act by Tywin; I would've loved to see the fallout haha. Maybe Tyrion going with whores wouldn't seem so bad in comparison.
Also in the book Cerci and Jamie are drifting apart, whereas in the show they seem to be as close as ever.
Actually you make a good point, it was the other lords that first suggested this and proclaimed him the King in the North and he's was the only one who didn't' want to take the iron throne, however he must've known that neither one of the brothers would agree to him retaining independence. Not so much out of greed (wanting to rule all seven kingdoms), but for the domino effect that it would most likely have. If Renly or Stannis agreed to allow the north to be an allied kingdom rather than one of the seven kingdoms. Then the other Lords who have descended from kings/queens would be inspired by this and quite possibly decided that they want to be independent too. Then before you know it everyone is back at war again =(.
Tywin would probably just send Cersei back to Casterly Rock (like Kevan wanted to do). This considering, of course, that he acknowledge that. Another option would be to fake a sudden blindness.
Well, there is still time for this to happen. Even without the Riverlands storyline. And they weren’t at the best terms in the end of season 4.
Robb wasnt stupid just inexperienced. In the books he is what 15-16? And he would've won the war if Tywin lannister wasn't such an evil scheming puss who wouldn't meet him in battle.
I don't know about anyone else here, but I feel a smug satisfaction that Tywin underestimated Robb as a "green boy" and yet he couldn't defeat him in battle. Instead he had to resort to stooping so low as to orchestrate the Red Wedding.
Outsmarted? Please, it was a cowardly approach because they were too scared to face him in battle. The only sneaky murder that was smart was Joffrey's IMO.
And saying "little Robby was fucked" shows how mature you are deciding to be on this topic
I'm making a point you don't need to resort to cheap insults. You seem to not understand that a lot of times in war fighting fairly and winning are incompatible. It was effective was it not? Call it whatever you want it still worked and crippled his army significantly. This was the only way to take out Robb and a very clever one it thinned out hundreds of his men and took away the number advantage
It was much but it worked. Was it underhanded? Yes but it was the most effective way to defeat them
I wasn't resorting to cheap insults, you were. "Little Robby was fucked" - you were the one who said that, no?
Anyway, I guess its just a matter of opinion on the Red Wedding. I didn't find it smart or cunning or anything along those lines. Just cowardly, even in terms of war (which I understand that fighting fairly and winning in war aren't always compatible)
Good man, good military skills, bad decisions.
No he would not have have won the war the reason Tywin did what he did was because he wanted to end the war as quickly as possible. The only chance Rob had was if he had manage to get back to the North and defeat the iron born but he still would not have won the war if he did that it would have ended in a stalemate.