I would rather donate to a nationwide kickstarter one hundred dollars, to hire mercenaries to kill them then to make deals with people i have zero faith in.
That's.... slightly hyperbolic... a lot of democrats want to work more closely with Iran, specifically against ISIS (as Iran had originally … morehelped the US in fighting the Al Qaida in Afghanistan), but they still want to ensure complaince with non-proliferation and to assure that IAEA inspectors are allowed to monitor.
I have a few businesses, but the one that he was applying for was a IT contracting job i set up with another company, he would have to do support there.
Oh, okay, that makes sense. Just the way you phrased it made it sound like you wanted him on as an unpaid intern or something.
Do you mind if I ask what field your business is in? Just curious.
My answer is again somewhat ironic as two days ago the American ambassador was slashed in the face with a knife, but, no, I'm not afraid of … morebeing stabbed at all. There's very low violent crime in Korea (at least violence by itself, there's a disturbingly elevated rate of sexual assault). Not to mention cameras all over the place. That I don't like.
agreeing with abortions and wanting abortions to be legal are two entirely different things.
I disagree with abortions, I don't think anyone should have an abortion.. But I think they should be legal because when they're illegal they still happen anyway (I'm aware a lot less). But if a teenage girl performs an abortion on herself with sewing needles, knives or a hanger and bleeds to death because it's not legal..
Oh I see what you're saying, kill the innocent baby because of the unfortunate circumstances in which they were conceived, that's not at all… more heinous right? Look, myself and a few others have already debunked every single one of your points, as well as every other pro choice argument brought up in the thread dedicated to discussing abortion. I know I'm coming off pretty harsh, and I don't want you to think I'm attacking you or anything, but I am seriously unable to debate this subject in a civil manner since I find abortion to be absolutely immoral and inhumane. We are talking about the* murder of unborn babies* here, it is an extremely touchy issue for me.
http://www.telltalegames.com/community/discussion/90334/how-do-you-feel-about-abortion/p1
.
Anyways, seeing as I'd rather not repeat myself as I ended up having to do several times in said thread, I'd advise you to just read through the comments.
Oh and I will say it annoys me when people go on about left and right wing, each issue has its own discussion and two or more sides you cant group every issue on the planet at once into two groups you have views on each issue.
Exactly right.
Their are issues like abortion, or whatever imo that will never have a right or wring answer.
The only thing I really care about is personal freedom.
People should be allowed to do and say what the wish as long as they dont hurt ot… morehers. Freedom of speech is very important and its bad when people are made to feel inadequate or lesser for having certain opinions is what annoys me. Disagreement is fine and great however many people get on a high horse in many situations like it is unacceptable to have a different view on a very debatable topic.
Oh and I will say it annoys me when people go on about left and right wing, each issue has its own discussion and two or more sides you cant group every issue on the planet at once into two groups you have views on each issue
I think that's honestly how they feel. I mean they never seem to move out of your way when you go to get something and it's like they are purposely trying to run your foot over.
Saying abortions should be legal means you condone abortions, thus you are condoning the unjust killing of an unborn child. Just because a girl may be dumb enough to try to perform a surgical procedure (without any of the required tools, not to mention that she has no medical knowledge or experience on how to do properly) on herself doesn't mean it should be legal for her to murder her own child. Furthermore, it is extremely uncommon for women to even try to perform abortion procedures on themselves, and you can't claim to know for a fact that outlawing abortion would lead to women resorting to doing it themselves, so that particular argument doesn't hold any water here.
Adoption > Abortion
Let's leave it that. I don't want to end up spurring another argument about abortion and get this thread closed like the last one was.
agreeing with abortions and wanting abortions to be legal are two entirely different things.
I disagree with abortions, I don't think any… moreone should have an abortion.. But I think they should be legal because when they're illegal they still happen anyway (I'm aware a lot less). But if a teenage girl performs an abortion on herself with sewing needles, knives or a hanger and bleeds to death because it's not legal..
Saying abortions should be legal means you condone abortions
I just stated that I don't believe in abortions, instead of making them illegal and having them happen anyways (lots of doctors also performed them illegally), we could teach teenagers safe sex! Which dramatically drops the rate of abortions (The rates are currently dropping in the USA) If they became illegal then in 50 years chances are it would become legal again and history would repeat itself.
you can't claim to know for a fact that outlawing abortion would lead to women resorting to doing it themselves
I can actually, because I know for a fact it happened in Canada back when it was illegal and theres literally no cases of it after it's legalization.
Saying abortions should be legal means you condone abortions, thus you are condoning the unjust killing of an unborn child. Just because a g… moreirl may be dumb enough to try to perform a surgical procedure (without any of the required tools, not to mention that she has no medical knowledge or experience on how to do properly) on herself doesn't mean it should be legal for her to murder her own child. Furthermore, it is extremely uncommon for women to even try to perform abortion procedures on themselves, and you can't claim to know for a fact that outlawing abortion would lead to women resorting to doing it themselves, so that particular argument doesn't hold any water here.
Adoption > Abortion
Let's leave it that. I don't want to end up spurring another argument about abortion and get this thread closed like the last one was.
Re-read my comment please. Saying that abortion shouldn't be illegal means you are condoning the procedure, you are saying that the procedure that involves the killing of an innocent life should be accessible and legal. It's the same thing as condoning them. Whether or not you personally would get one is irrelevant to the topic we're discussing.
Of course we should teach kids safe sex, we've been doing that for decades in middle/high school. What we need to start doing is teaching kids to take responsibility for the consequences of their actions. Meaning if they decide to have sex, that means they are mature enough to deal with the possible consequences.(ie; pregnancy, STDs etc) We should not give them a seemingly instant "make it all better" way out like abortion.
I'll need statistical data to back up that claim of yours then, I would appreciate if you could provide that. In order for "outlawing abortion = women performing abortions on themselves" to be accurate, there needs to be a very high number of women performing abortion procedures on themselves in the event that it is outlawed. A small number of horrific cases doesn't make it common, nor does it make it a 100% expected outcome if abortion is illegal.
Regardless, I still don't believe that is a good reason to legalize abortion, because it doesn't change the fact that the overwhelming majority of abortions are done out of convenience. Whether or not a woman performs an abortion on themselves, it doesn't change the outcome. Either way, you are still killing an innocent baby.
Saying abortions should be legal means you condone abortions
I just stated that I don't believe in abortions, instead of making them… more illegal and having them happen anyways (lots of doctors also performed them illegally), we could teach teenagers safe sex! Which dramatically drops the rate of abortions (The rates are currently dropping in the USA) If they became illegal then in 50 years chances are it would become legal again and history would repeat itself.
you can't claim to know for a fact that outlawing abortion would lead to women resorting to doing it themselves
I can actually, because I know for a fact it happened in Canada back when it was illegal and theres literally no cases of it after it's legalization.
I'm not going to get into a long debate about it, it seems you have a strong opinion on the matter and so do i and both of us have some really good points and opinions.. but i'll my opinion at this leave it at this.
Abortions have been around since ancient history and many different wild animals abort their babies too (For many different reasons). Legal or not abortions will happen if they are illegal doctors will perform them illegally, woman will give self abortions and etc. The numbers of abortions are dropping quickly in the United States and in Canada also, because we are teaching teens how to have safe sex and how it can affect your future. If abortions become illegal the numbers of aborted babies would drop, a lot. But the thing is that once it becomes illegal people will begin fighting for abortions again, after 50 years of movements and protests it will probably just become legal again and then the numbers of aborted babies will rapidly rise like they did in the 70's and 80's.
I'll need statistical data to back up that claim of yours then, I would appreciate if you could provide those.
Re-read my comment please. Saying that abortion shouldn't be illegal means you are condoning the procedure, you are saying that the procedur… moree that involves the killing of an innocent life should be accessible and legal. It's the same thing as condoning them. Whether or not you personally would get one is irrelevant to the topic we're discussing.
Of course we should teach kids safe sex, we've been doing that for decades in middle/high school. What we need to start doing is teaching kids to take responsibility for the consequences of their actions. Meaning if they decide to have sex, that means they are mature enough to deal with the possible consequences.(ie; pregnancy, STDs etc) We should not give them a seemingly instant "make it all better" way out like abortion.
I'll need statistical data to back up that claim of yours then, I would appreciate if you could provide that. In order for "outlawing abortion = women performing abortions o… [view original content]
its just as usual people refuse to listen to another persons opinion to the point that person cant be bothered to talk anymore.
I've listened to your opinion, and I specifically responded to that opinion. I didn't ignore anything that you had said. There's a difference between questioning someone's stance and refusing to listen to what they have to say.
THE HEALTH BENEFITS! THE HEALTH BENEFITS! Fuck off! The health benefits are negligible and practically nonexistent, its a modern day excuse for a ancient tradition.
It doesn't even matter if you want to downplay the benefits, the fact remains that they are there, and this is reason enough to have the procedure. All in all you're making a big deal out of nothing. Circumcision is not a big deal at all, and the procedure has absolutely no negative impact on someone's life. That's really the only point that I was making. Considering that there are really only benefits to the procedure, it makes little sense to be so worked up about it.
Nothings been cleared up its just as usual people refuse to listen to another persons opinion to the point that person cant be bothered to t… morealk anymore.
THE HEALTH BENEFITS!
THE HEALTH BENEFITS! Fuck off! The health benefits are negligible and practically nonexistent, its a modern day excuse for a ancient tradition.
I don't think the abortion rates of wild animals are at all relevant to our discussion, nor is saying that abortion has been around since ancient history a very good argument. You can also hypothetically say that slavery has been around since ancient history, therefore it should be legal. Just because it was once legal, or has been around for a long time doesn't mean it should be legal, or that it should be accepted.
But the thing is that once it becomes illegal people will begin fighting for abortions again
Again, you can say the same for the people who were pro slavery when slavery was outlawed. At one point, several people thought slavery to be a necessity in America, and believed that if it were outlawed that they would just fight for it's legalization, and it would become legal once more. Of course nowadays it's preposterous to even consider legalizing slavery, for it's immoral and inhumane to enslave another human being. I believe the same can be said for abortion. Abortion is the killing of an innocent unborn baby, so it is also obviously immoral and inhumane. Maybe people weren't ready to accept that fact when abortion was initially outlawed all those decades ago, which is why it was unfortunately legalized. But that doesn't mean we should just sit back and accept that abortion is legal only because we are outnumbered by the people who say we should, or because apparently "women are just going to do it anyway" or "oh, it's just going to get legalized again anyway". That was then, this is now. Just because we failed once, doesn't mean we shouldn't try to outlaw it again, it's a heinous and barbaric procedure that had no place being legal in the first place. It's not right to accept such a thing, nor is it right to allow a woman to murder her own baby for such a selfish reasons.
interesting irrefutable fact that you should consider:
I suppose it all boils down to morality. I for one feel sick to my stomach when I think about all the children that were robbed of their own lives before they even left the womb. Morally, I cannot condone such a horrific procedure, and I never will. That means I cannot, and will not support it as a legal procedure. Every child is precious and deserves to be loved. As you said, abortion rates are dropping, and more and more people are being informed about the grisly facts behind abortion. I think it's time that we outlawed this barbaric practice once and for all. We're constantly growing as a society, we aren't the same people we were decades ago, just as we aren't the same people we were hundreds of years ago. We thought slavery to be acceptable once, but now we know that isn't so, it's time for us to accept that the same goes for abortion. Killing innocent people, babies no less, will never ever be ok, and it shouldn't be legal. The only time when it should be allowed is in the rare event that the mother's life is undeniably in danger due to pregnancy, that is the only exception in my eyes.
I'm not going to get into a long debate about it, it seems you have a strong opinion on the matter and so do i and both of us have some real… morely good points and opinions.. but i'll my opinion at this leave it at this.
Abortions have been around since ancient history and many different wild animals abort their babies too (For many different reasons). Legal or not abortions will happen if they are illegal doctors will perform them illegally, woman will give self abortions and etc. The numbers of abortions are dropping quickly in the United States and in Canada also, because we are teaching teens how to have safe sex and how it can affect your future. If abortions become illegal the numbers of aborted babies would drop, a lot. But the thing is that once it becomes illegal people will begin fighting for abortions again, after 50 years of movements and protests it will probably just become legal again and then the numbers of aborted babies will r… [view original content]
Funny you say that because I found several unbiased sites that say there were 620,000 - 1 million abortions in 1967 alone, that is lower than in the 1970's but not by much. In 2011 in the United States 1.06 million abortions took place.
I don't think the abortion rates of wild animals are at all relevant to our discussion, nor is saying that abortion has been around since a… morencient history a very good argument. You can also hypothetically say that slavery has been around since ancient history, therefore it should be legal. Just because it was once legal, or has been around for a long time doesn't mean it should be legal, or that it should be accepted.
Illegal abortions are still fairly uncommon(see chapter 27). As for self abortions done with a coat hanger, I think you should read this
But the thing is that once it becomes illegal people will begin fighting for abortions again
Again, you can say the same for the people who were pro slavery when slavery was outlawed. At one point, several people thought slavery to be a necessity in America, and believed that if it were outlawed that they would just fight for it's legalization, and it would become legal once mo… [view original content]
You're citing numbers from a time where abortion was widely illegal, period. So of course those numbers are going to be much larger than today. I don't know why you would use those numbers to compare to the modern day where abortion is widely legal. I believe Tinni was talking more about self inflicted abortions/ getting them done through unqualified personnel. If abortion were to be illegalized once more, then yes, the number of illegal abortions would naturally increase, as even abortions performed by qualified personnel would be deemed as illegal.
The number of illegal abortions performed doesn't even matter in regards to whether or not abortion should be legal anyway. The number of women working around the law and harming themselves in the process carries no justification for making the procedure legal.
Illegal abortions are still fairly uncommon.
Funny you say that because I found several unbiased sites that say there were 620,000 -… more 1 million abortions in 1967 alone, that is lower than in the 1970's but not by much. In 2011 in the United States 1.06 million abortions took place.
Heres some links for you
[https://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/06/1/gr060108.html]
http://www.ourbodiesourselves.org/health-info/impact-of-illegal-abortion/
Oh, and the New York Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/12/world/12abortion.html?_r=0
...I think you've misunderstood what I mean when I say illegal abortions. Belan was correct in his assumption that I'm only speaking about abortions performed by the pregnant woman in question, and back alley abortions. To be more specific, abortions that are performed illegally in the U.S/Canada that are dangerous/life threatening to the mother.
By the way, one of your links doesn't work, the other is actually biased by your standards because it's written by pro abortion contributors, and the last one is citing abortion statistics worldwide, which is kinda irrelevant seeing as we're speaking only about America and Canada here.
Also, whether or not you believe the source to be completely biased doesn't negate the history, court rulings, factual information, scientific references and statistical data provided by a myriad of experienced medical professionals, case studies, prestigious universities, CDC etc., all of which the source contains. "Biased", imo, would mean that it purposely leaves out key information (and let me tell you now, this source does not leave anything out, it is one of the most detailed/in depth sources about abortion I've ever read. If you have a question, it's bound to have an answer), twists factual information, bad mouth's the opposition, all without backing up their statements with facts and concrete evidence. This source explains both sides of pro life and pro choice, doesn't talk badly about pro choice, only the flaws in their argument, and also informs the reader of the history of abortion from the beginning to now, along with the scientific information regarding the conception of a human life, fluctuating statistics of abortions, reasoning behind abortions, effects of abortions etc. all while backing up their statements with facts and concrete evidence.
It also highlights a few facts behind the actual rate of illegal abortions, hence why I cited it. Truth be told, the actual rates are not very clear, that's not just for this source, but every other source too. It's impossible to know how many illegal abortions actually occurred because most illegal abortions weren't/aren't reported. So the data is always going to be flawed. Depending on where you look, the statistics you'll find concerning the occurrence of illegal abortion is always going to be different. Some say it was thousands, some say it was millions, either way we have no way of knowing for sure. Neither pro abortion or pro life can cite accurate statistics without cherry picking them. Any sources claiming to have an exact number are cherry picking, are not credible and are not being truthful. This particular argument is shaky on both sides, and doesn't necessarily favor either pro choice or pro life because the numbers have been altered far too many times. With all that said, I realize now that it really shouldn't have been brought up in the discussion in the first place. But the numbers that are officially cited on dangerous/fatal illegal abortions are a lot smaller than most people think, so that's what I meant when I said "fairly uncommon".
If you find it to be completely biased, that leads me to believe you didn't read it. What this source truly accomplishes is answering a vast amount of questions about abortion. I'd definitely recommend giving it a read, it touches on a quite a lot of interesting aspects, it's informative, and also answers a lot of important questions that one normally wouldn't consider when educating themselves about the facts behind abortion. If you only want to read the chapter addressing illegal abortions, scroll down to chapter 27, it starts there.
Anyways, I seem to have lost sight of the main objective of my post by going off on a tangent about numbers and statistics. The truth is, we can argue about the legitimacy of numbers, percentages, and statistics regarding abortion until we go blue in the face, but we'd be losing sight of the main problem here. Regardless of the numbers, whether they be high or low, the main issue at hand is that murdering an unborn child is currently legal. And that is not ok in the slightest. Abortion should be illegal for that fact alone.
Illegal abortions are still fairly uncommon.
Funny you say that because I found several unbiased sites that say there were 620,000 -… more 1 million abortions in 1967 alone, that is lower than in the 1970's but not by much. In 2011 in the United States 1.06 million abortions took place.
Heres some links for you
[https://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/06/1/gr060108.html]
http://www.ourbodiesourselves.org/health-info/impact-of-illegal-abortion/
Oh, and the New York Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/12/world/12abortion.html?_r=0
Oh man I have a lot..
* Abortion (This one I promised not to get into again)
* Circumcision (Disagree)
* Gay rights/marriage
*… more GMO (Agree)
* Senior benefits (Disagree)
* Right to wear a turban in School (or show/wear other religious items)
* Vaccinations (GET VACCINATED I SERIOUS!!!!)
* Fighting less wars overseas, actually dealing with more issues in my country.
* Turks and Caicos merging with Canada
Okay.... I am circumsized on the age of three because of medical reason otherwise i didn't have a dick right.... My grandpa and my dad got the same problem and are also circumsized... it's in the genetics and under the foreskin it already became irritated and infected at the age of three so you prefer someone to have his dick all the way infected than circumsized, that's cruel.
No.. if you have to get it removed for medical reasons then that's fine, the foreskin sometimes needs to be removed just like any other part of the body. But just because someone has to get it removed medically doesn't mean everyone should have it removed.
Okay.... I am circumsized on the age of three because of medical reason otherwise i didn't have a dick right.... My grandpa and my dad got t… morehe same problem and are also circumsized... it's in the genetics and under the foreskin it already became irritated and infected at the age of three so you prefer someone to have his dick all the way infected than circumsized, that's cruel.
ignore me im just a commie piece of shit
I like how you want to be ignored but, at the same time, you want people to know that you e… morexist since...
* You added an insult (piece of shit)
* You added an ideology (communism, which is not one of the worst political ideologies)
* You indirectly insulted an ideology
* You wrote on a forum so that people read your opinion, making you noticeable (a.k.a: not ignorable)
* Grammar mistakes
You seem like you want to argue. Am I right?
EDIT: You may be sarcastic.
We should just start a kickstarter where everyone in America donates 10 dollars, and we hire Mercenaries to go out there and kill them.
… more
THAT COULD BE THE PLOT OF EXPENDABLES 4! xD (This is the trailer for the 3rd....)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xD0junWlFc
No problem, I technically am a democrat, I'm just thoroughly displeased with the party. I don't believe labor contracts should be between the employer and employee because the two simply do not have equal power in bargaining. There are minimum wage laws, and if you don't agree with those, I should hope you at least believe it's good that it's illegal to sell yourself into slavery - that's a limitation of employer-employee contracts as well.
I'm not sure what you mean by collectivism, but chances are I believe in it, to a certain extent. The idea that hard work is going to solve everything is an illusion. Unemployment didn't skyrocket in 2008 because we had a sudden crisis of laziness. There are market forces that screw people over and the private sector may very well not have any incentive to rectify - for those government is required. I believe that all people have, by sole virtue of human dignity, the right to a certain level of living. Limiting markets, and therefore limiting the range of employment contracts, is necessary to ensuring that.
As to unions themselves, I'm honestly ambivalent. There has been a number of improvements due to unions, and moreover to the threat of unionization in driving up wages. But there is abuse, whether it be defending a unionized employee even when there are a number of serious problems with their work. Honestly, the sorts of improvements in work conditions and wages should be managed not by unions, but compelled by the government via regulation and minimum wage laws. Although, in that case I'm talking especially about the working class; once you get into the middle class and upper incomes, I'm much more willing to let the market decide. The fundamental disagreement it seems we have is in regards to the free market, which I honestly don't see any valid argument in favor of which isn't ideological.
Here are a few videos I found interesting, the second one in particular, because it really challenged some of my assumptions as well (sort of annoyed at the plugs in the last one). Some of them are long, but it might be interesting to look around when you have time:
Sorry, I assumed you were a Democrat because I knew you were a liberal. I am pretty busy, so I don't necessarily have the time that I once d… moreid to participate in debates such as these. But I do want to answer your questions, so I'll put it as briefly as I can. Basically, because I'm pro free market, I don't support labor unions. I believe that a labor contract, as well as negotiations (wages, benefits etc.) should be between the employee and the employer, and only the employee and employer. All labor unions do, in my honest opinion, is extort the employer for money and benefits that they didn't earn, they end up strong arming the employer into breaking the contract that should have been only between the employer and individual employee. Labor unions = collectivism in my eyes. And more often than not you have lazy employees benefiting off the hard work of other employees because of labor unions. I don't think that's fair. I can elaborate, but … [view original content]
Comments
LOL doubt it. Not after the Benghazi scandal.
Well your American friends should leave America with Obama and never come back.
I would rather donate to a nationwide kickstarter one hundred dollars, to hire mercenaries to kill them then to make deals with people i have zero faith in.
I have a few businesses, but the one that he was applying for was a IT contracting job i set up with another company, he would have to do support there.
Well i know someone who was stabbed to death in college, i was there. Ever since then i don't take chances.
pretty much.
agreeing with abortions and wanting abortions to be legal are two entirely different things.
I disagree with abortions, I don't think anyone should have an abortion.. But I think they should be legal because when they're illegal they still happen anyway (I'm aware a lot less). But if a teenage girl performs an abortion on herself with sewing needles, knives or a hanger and bleeds to death because it's not legal..
Exactly right.
Their are issues like abortion, or whatever imo that will never have a right or wring answer.
"Runnin ur foot over in the name of 'murrica!!!!!!"
Yea.... no. Go to the gym fatso.
The difference between Left Twix and Right Twix
Saying abortions should be legal means you condone abortions, thus you are condoning the unjust killing of an unborn child. Just because a girl may be dumb enough to try to perform a surgical procedure (without any of the required tools, not to mention that she has no medical knowledge or experience on how to do properly) on herself doesn't mean it should be legal for her to murder her own child. Furthermore, it is extremely uncommon for women to even try to perform abortion procedures on themselves, and you can't claim to know for a fact that outlawing abortion would lead to women resorting to doing it themselves, so that particular argument doesn't hold any water here.
Adoption > Abortion
Let's leave it that. I don't want to end up spurring another argument about abortion and get this thread closed like the last one was.
I just stated that I don't believe in abortions, instead of making them illegal and having them happen anyways (lots of doctors also performed them illegally), we could teach teenagers safe sex! Which dramatically drops the rate of abortions (The rates are currently dropping in the USA) If they became illegal then in 50 years chances are it would become legal again and history would repeat itself.
I can actually, because I know for a fact it happened in Canada back when it was illegal and theres literally no cases of it after it's legalization.
No matter what teenagers are going to have sex. (Not all, but some)
Re-read my comment please. Saying that abortion shouldn't be illegal means you are condoning the procedure, you are saying that the procedure that involves the killing of an innocent life should be accessible and legal. It's the same thing as condoning them. Whether or not you personally would get one is irrelevant to the topic we're discussing.
Of course we should teach kids safe sex, we've been doing that for decades in middle/high school. What we need to start doing is teaching kids to take responsibility for the consequences of their actions. Meaning if they decide to have sex, that means they are mature enough to deal with the possible consequences.(ie; pregnancy, STDs etc) We should not give them a seemingly instant "make it all better" way out like abortion.
I'll need statistical data to back up that claim of yours then, I would appreciate if you could provide that. In order for "outlawing abortion = women performing abortions on themselves" to be accurate, there needs to be a very high number of women performing abortion procedures on themselves in the event that it is outlawed. A small number of horrific cases doesn't make it common, nor does it make it a 100% expected outcome if abortion is illegal.
Regardless, I still don't believe that is a good reason to legalize abortion, because it doesn't change the fact that the overwhelming majority of abortions are done out of convenience. Whether or not a woman performs an abortion on themselves, it doesn't change the outcome. Either way, you are still killing an innocent baby.
I'm not going to get into a long debate about it, it seems you have a strong opinion on the matter and so do i and both of us have some really good points and opinions.. but i'll my opinion at this leave it at this.
Abortions have been around since ancient history and many different wild animals abort their babies too (For many different reasons). Legal or not abortions will happen if they are illegal doctors will perform them illegally, woman will give self abortions and etc. The numbers of abortions are dropping quickly in the United States and in Canada also, because we are teaching teens how to have safe sex and how it can affect your future. If abortions become illegal the numbers of aborted babies would drop, a lot. But the thing is that once it becomes illegal people will begin fighting for abortions again, after 50 years of movements and protests it will probably just become legal again and then the numbers of aborted babies will rapidly rise like they did in the 70's and 80's.
Abortion rates:
https://guttmacher.org/media/nr/2014/02/03/index.html
Abortion Histroy:
http://civilliberty.about.com/od/abortion/f/When-Did-Abortion-Begin.htm
I've listened to your opinion, and I specifically responded to that opinion. I didn't ignore anything that you had said. There's a difference between questioning someone's stance and refusing to listen to what they have to say.
It doesn't even matter if you want to downplay the benefits, the fact remains that they are there, and this is reason enough to have the procedure. All in all you're making a big deal out of nothing. Circumcision is not a big deal at all, and the procedure has absolutely no negative impact on someone's life. That's really the only point that I was making. Considering that there are really only benefits to the procedure, it makes little sense to be so worked up about it.
I don't think the abortion rates of wild animals are at all relevant to our discussion, nor is saying that abortion has been around since ancient history a very good argument. You can also hypothetically say that slavery has been around since ancient history, therefore it should be legal. Just because it was once legal, or has been around for a long time doesn't mean it should be legal, or that it should be accepted.
Illegal abortions are still fairly uncommon(see chapter 27). As for self abortions done with a coat hanger, I think you should read this
Again, you can say the same for the people who were pro slavery when slavery was outlawed. At one point, several people thought slavery to be a necessity in America, and believed that if it were outlawed that they would just fight for it's legalization, and it would become legal once more. Of course nowadays it's preposterous to even consider legalizing slavery, for it's immoral and inhumane to enslave another human being. I believe the same can be said for abortion. Abortion is the killing of an innocent unborn baby, so it is also obviously immoral and inhumane. Maybe people weren't ready to accept that fact when abortion was initially outlawed all those decades ago, which is why it was unfortunately legalized. But that doesn't mean we should just sit back and accept that abortion is legal only because we are outnumbered by the people who say we should, or because apparently "women are just going to do it anyway" or "oh, it's just going to get legalized again anyway". That was then, this is now. Just because we failed once, doesn't mean we shouldn't try to outlaw it again, it's a heinous and barbaric procedure that had no place being legal in the first place. It's not right to accept such a thing, nor is it right to allow a woman to murder her own baby for such a selfish reasons.
interesting irrefutable fact that you should consider:
I suppose it all boils down to morality. I for one feel sick to my stomach when I think about all the children that were robbed of their own lives before they even left the womb. Morally, I cannot condone such a horrific procedure, and I never will. That means I cannot, and will not support it as a legal procedure. Every child is precious and deserves to be loved. As you said, abortion rates are dropping, and more and more people are being informed about the grisly facts behind abortion. I think it's time that we outlawed this barbaric practice once and for all. We're constantly growing as a society, we aren't the same people we were decades ago, just as we aren't the same people we were hundreds of years ago. We thought slavery to be acceptable once, but now we know that isn't so, it's time for us to accept that the same goes for abortion. Killing innocent people, babies no less, will never ever be ok, and it shouldn't be legal. The only time when it should be allowed is in the rare event that the mother's life is undeniably in danger due to pregnancy, that is the only exception in my eyes.
I'll say it again and bold it for emphasis,
Adoption > Abortion
Funny you say that because I found several unbiased sites that say there were 620,000 - 1 million abortions in 1967 alone, that is lower than in the 1970's but not by much. In 2011 in the United States 1.06 million abortions took place.
Heres some links for you
[https://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/06/1/gr060108.html]
http://www.ourbodiesourselves.org/health-info/impact-of-illegal-abortion/
Oh, and the New York Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/12/world/12abortion.html?_r=0
You're citing numbers from a time where abortion was widely illegal, period. So of course those numbers are going to be much larger than today. I don't know why you would use those numbers to compare to the modern day where abortion is widely legal. I believe Tinni was talking more about self inflicted abortions/ getting them done through unqualified personnel. If abortion were to be illegalized once more, then yes, the number of illegal abortions would naturally increase, as even abortions performed by qualified personnel would be deemed as illegal.
The number of illegal abortions performed doesn't even matter in regards to whether or not abortion should be legal anyway. The number of women working around the law and harming themselves in the process carries no justification for making the procedure legal.
...I think you've misunderstood what I mean when I say illegal abortions. Belan was correct in his assumption that I'm only speaking about abortions performed by the pregnant woman in question, and back alley abortions. To be more specific, abortions that are performed illegally in the U.S/Canada that are dangerous/life threatening to the mother.
By the way, one of your links doesn't work, the other is actually biased by your standards because it's written by pro abortion contributors, and the last one is citing abortion statistics worldwide, which is kinda irrelevant seeing as we're speaking only about America and Canada here.
Also, whether or not you believe the source to be completely biased doesn't negate the history, court rulings, factual information, scientific references and statistical data provided by a myriad of experienced medical professionals, case studies, prestigious universities, CDC etc., all of which the source contains. "Biased", imo, would mean that it purposely leaves out key information (and let me tell you now, this source does not leave anything out, it is one of the most detailed/in depth sources about abortion I've ever read. If you have a question, it's bound to have an answer), twists factual information, bad mouth's the opposition, all without backing up their statements with facts and concrete evidence. This source explains both sides of pro life and pro choice, doesn't talk badly about pro choice, only the flaws in their argument, and also informs the reader of the history of abortion from the beginning to now, along with the scientific information regarding the conception of a human life, fluctuating statistics of abortions, reasoning behind abortions, effects of abortions etc. all while backing up their statements with facts and concrete evidence.
It also highlights a few facts behind the actual rate of illegal abortions, hence why I cited it. Truth be told, the actual rates are not very clear, that's not just for this source, but every other source too. It's impossible to know how many illegal abortions actually occurred because most illegal abortions weren't/aren't reported. So the data is always going to be flawed. Depending on where you look, the statistics you'll find concerning the occurrence of illegal abortion is always going to be different. Some say it was thousands, some say it was millions, either way we have no way of knowing for sure. Neither pro abortion or pro life can cite accurate statistics without cherry picking them. Any sources claiming to have an exact number are cherry picking, are not credible and are not being truthful. This particular argument is shaky on both sides, and doesn't necessarily favor either pro choice or pro life because the numbers have been altered far too many times. With all that said, I realize now that it really shouldn't have been brought up in the discussion in the first place. But the numbers that are officially cited on dangerous/fatal illegal abortions are a lot smaller than most people think, so that's what I meant when I said "fairly uncommon".
If you find it to be completely biased, that leads me to believe you didn't read it. What this source truly accomplishes is answering a vast amount of questions about abortion. I'd definitely recommend giving it a read, it touches on a quite a lot of interesting aspects, it's informative, and also answers a lot of important questions that one normally wouldn't consider when educating themselves about the facts behind abortion. If you only want to read the chapter addressing illegal abortions, scroll down to chapter 27, it starts there.
Anyways, I seem to have lost sight of the main objective of my post by going off on a tangent about numbers and statistics. The truth is, we can argue about the legitimacy of numbers, percentages, and statistics regarding abortion until we go blue in the face, but we'd be losing sight of the main problem here. Regardless of the numbers, whether they be high or low, the main issue at hand is that murdering an unborn child is currently legal. And that is not ok in the slightest. Abortion should be illegal for that fact alone.
Why the fuck are you against Circumcision? TeamSarah???
read above you ^
Okay.... I am circumsized on the age of three because of medical reason otherwise i didn't have a dick right.... My grandpa and my dad got the same problem and are also circumsized... it's in the genetics and under the foreskin it already became irritated and infected at the age of three so you prefer someone to have his dick all the way infected than circumsized, that's cruel.
No.. if you have to get it removed for medical reasons then that's fine, the foreskin sometimes needs to be removed just like any other part of the body. But just because someone has to get it removed medically doesn't mean everyone should have it removed.
[removed]
I like how you want to be ignored but, at the same time, you want people to know that you exist since...
You seem like you want to argue. Am I right?
EDIT: You may be sarcastic.
actually, i do support communist to some extend.
Okay. You confused me. I may ignore you in the end (as you wanted me to) if you unconfuse me.
How do you propose that I unconfuse you?
Explain me "ignore me im just a commie piece of shit".
Oh, that's just a bit of me being the piece of shit that I normally am on these forums.
Since you accepted the challange I proposed, you shall be forgiven by FauDeef.
Brilliant.
Now, what shall we discuss?
I see you added a Hitler stache here, too.
or Rambo, i love Rambo.
No problem, I technically am a democrat, I'm just thoroughly displeased with the party. I don't believe labor contracts should be between the employer and employee because the two simply do not have equal power in bargaining. There are minimum wage laws, and if you don't agree with those, I should hope you at least believe it's good that it's illegal to sell yourself into slavery - that's a limitation of employer-employee contracts as well.
I'm not sure what you mean by collectivism, but chances are I believe in it, to a certain extent. The idea that hard work is going to solve everything is an illusion. Unemployment didn't skyrocket in 2008 because we had a sudden crisis of laziness. There are market forces that screw people over and the private sector may very well not have any incentive to rectify - for those government is required. I believe that all people have, by sole virtue of human dignity, the right to a certain level of living. Limiting markets, and therefore limiting the range of employment contracts, is necessary to ensuring that.
As to unions themselves, I'm honestly ambivalent. There has been a number of improvements due to unions, and moreover to the threat of unionization in driving up wages. But there is abuse, whether it be defending a unionized employee even when there are a number of serious problems with their work. Honestly, the sorts of improvements in work conditions and wages should be managed not by unions, but compelled by the government via regulation and minimum wage laws. Although, in that case I'm talking especially about the working class; once you get into the middle class and upper incomes, I'm much more willing to let the market decide. The fundamental disagreement it seems we have is in regards to the free market, which I honestly don't see any valid argument in favor of which isn't ideological.
Here are a few videos I found interesting, the second one in particular, because it really challenged some of my assumptions as well (sort of annoyed at the plugs in the last one). Some of them are long, but it might be interesting to look around when you have time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKOJqnAET9A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnRb2DwReuc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVHPbL7Wk58