Young Griff
I'm surprised this hasn't really been brought up on these forums yet. What do you book readers think about Young Griff AKA Aegon Targaryen. Mummer's dragon or real deal? Where do you think his storyline will go in Winds of Winter?
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No thoughts on this. I'm not sure what to think of it. I'm not particularly engaged by that storyline.
I don't think he'll get anywhere. Seems like he came into things a bit too late IMO. Might be able to forge an alliance with someone else and become a warden or something, but I don't think he'll sit the Iron Throne.
I think Young Gryff is a red herring. He was introduced far too late in the story line for him to be a big player. The kid probably was raised under the false pretense that he was Aegon. Quite tragic in that way.
I'm one of his fans actually. people think that he's fake simply because basically all we know comes from Varys and Illyrio, 2 very untrustworthy people. People who says he's fake also base this on a prophecy and by Quaithe's sayings to Dany (beware of the false dragon) and the other in HotU (the mummer's dragon)
Regarding the first one - True, they are manipulators but I think that Varys is a true Targ loyalist, I also don't buy it that it doesn't make sense that Ellia would let only her son to live , to that I say, look for Sophie's choice. It's the same deal , either see both die or choose one( in this case the boy - too young to be recognized but most importantly he's the heir to the throne).
For the second and most important one, the prophecies - it's confirmed by GRRM that Varys was a mummer in his youth, so Mummer's dragon doesn't mean fake dragon but a puppet dragon, Vary's pet but nonetheless real.
Ser Kevan himself(who saw the bodies) admits that he was never sure that it was Aegon as the baby's face were unrecognizable but he took Tywin's word for it.
Aegon had perfect timing to his landing, the realm is in chaos and we know that Arianne was sent with marriage proposal so he'll have Dorne and the Stormlands though I still think he would die a tragic death. He won't be king but he's by far the best man for the job.
I believe he's fake but don't think it makes any difference. Whether or not Varys/Serra/Illyrio are Blackfyres, the most convincing evidence is that the Golden Company are said to have never broken a contract, and wouldn't ruin that reputation to put a Targ on the throne. Dany recalls how Viserys wanted the Golden Company to take up his cause and was laughed out the room! Why would they shit on Viserys but then break contract to support fAegon unless he's really a Blackfyre. Crowning a Blackfyre would fulfil the original purpose of their founder Bittersteel. Like you say he'll probably die when Dany gets there and Varys is always going to claim he's a Targ loyalist so i doubt we'll ever find out
Of course he's a fake. Warning of a fake would be meaningless if a fake were never to show up and he was introduced around the right time to be just that.
I think he is Blackfyre but I'll put more thought into it when I re-read ADWD. For now he is not one of my favorite characters, but I don't hate him either. I'm just happy if he brings some interesting shake into the power struggle of Westeros in TWOW. And then there is the question about Dance of Dragons 2.0, that should be interesting too.
it's true that the GC was founded to put a Blackfyre on the throne but after so many years all they want is to go home, Blackfyre or not, black or red, it doesn't matter anymore. They know that Aegon or Dany are the only 2 options to accomplish their goal. Also notice that Illyrio mentions the black first and the red second, the GC supported the black dragon at first, but now they support the red.
And now think about it, even if Aegon is a blackfyre, he's still a fake Targ so even if he takes the throne his children will be called Targaryen not Blackfyre so how is it good for the GC?
I think that the reason they laughed at Viserys is because they knew supporting him won't bring them home, he had nothing and the realm was stable at the time. Think about it for a second - on one hand you have Viserys, a psychopath beggar king and on the other you have Aegon, the legitimate heir to the throne , charismatic , charming and supported by Illyrio (after all, gold is what they want), who would you choose to back?
You make good points, it could go either way but having the GC back a Blackfyre (even if hes crowned a Targ) just fits better to me partly because it makes all the Blackfyre setup (throughout Dunk and Egg and Dance) relevant to main plot, but mostly because it clears up some of Varys and Illyrios actions and motivations throughout the series. Why wouldnt Illyrio introduce Viserys and Dany to their nephew Aegon and have them support his claim, why would he risk both their lives with the Dothraki? Illyrio seems overly protective of Young Griff and his attachment to him makes more sense if Serra was a Blackfyre and Aegons their son. Varys as a Blackfyre im not so sure, but it seems strange that a Targ loyalist would want to destabilise the realm with Aerys as King, his whispers contributed to Aerys' paranoia and his descent into madness, again if it makes more sense for Varys to have ties to the Blackfyre line rather than Targaryen. I like you're prespective on it, ill keep an open mind as to whether he's fake or not
I'm predicting Quentin Esq exit for him if he is fake
Black or red it does not matter he is still a true dragon.
I'm not entirely sure we should trust everything Quaithe says to Dany. Remember her overarching motivation seems to be to bring Dany and her dragons to Ashhai which from what we can tell so far is not all that nice a place. She also told her to beware of Tyrion and he wants to help her.
Personally I think Young Griff is part of the prophecy, the one about the dragon having three heads. To stop the Others Dany teams up with Ageon and Jon Snow allowing them each the use on one of her dragons. I expect Ageon will die in conflict and be forever remembered as a hero while Jon declines his stronger right to the Iron Throne so that he may keep his vows leaving Dany as Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.
Totally a real dragon. Just not the one they claim he is.
There is no way IMO, that YGriff is really Aegon Targaeryan - son of Rhaegar and Elia Martell.
I believe he is a Blackfyre, and possibly Illyrio Mopatis' son by his last wife Sera (who he tells Tyrion, is of the female Blackfyre line), and they are just using the fact that there is No one alive anymore who could confirm or deny who YGriff actually is.
I do not think that YGriff or Jon Connington are aware of the fact that he is not Aegon though. They are being used and decieved.
Nice explanation, that's definitely food for thought. Is that a common theory? I finished A Dance with Dragons quite recently, so I'm not sure of the different theories concerning him out there.
I think he is the Mummer's Dragon.
Illyrio had an odd fondness for the boy. And why should Illyrio care about Westeros or take part in Varys' scheme? I believe the reason is that young Griff is actually Illyrio's son by his second wife Serra. Possibly lending some support to this is that Illyrio had a chest containing old children's clothing, despite having no known children. The description of Serra's portrait in the locket Illyrio keeps paints as her having an appearance that could pass for Valyrian. She's described as having pale golden hair streaked with silver, and pale blue eyes. She was also of Lysene ancestry, and many of the people of Lys are said to have partial Valyrian ancestry. Her appearance also matches to some degree, that of Young Griff.
My money is Griff either being able to pass for a Targaryen due to Lysene (and Valyrian) ancestry via Serra, or going a step further...perhaps having Blackfyre ancestry from Serra.
Illyrio tells Tyrion that not all he does is for personal gain, and that he has debts of affection to repay. Could that refer to seeing Serra's son, perhaps a Blackfyre, claiming a throne his mother saw as his right?
Having said all that...if it pans out I think both young Griff and Jon Connington are entirely in the dark about young Griff's true origins.
On that note there is also some speculation that Varys might be a Blackfyre.
It's pretty common, from what i have seen on the Westeros message boards. Most seem to be of the opinion that he is a Blackfyre pretender, or alternately they believe he is exactly who he says he is.
There are many little clues (IMO) that point to him being a fake Aegon. My favorite one is in one of Brienne's chapters while near the Crossroads Inn. Septon Meribald (i think, could have been the Elder Brother), is speaking about all of the past owners and the history of the Inn, and how there used to be a large Black Iron sign in the shape of a 3 headed dragon. His story goes on to say how; after the last Blackfyre rebellion the local Lord was so wroth at the sight of the black dragon (which is the sigil of the Blackfyre line as a red dragon is the sigil of the Targs) because he supported the Targaeryans, that he cut it down and threw it in the river.
The story goes on, and the Septon tells how one of the 3 Iron Heads washed up on the Quiet Isle many years later, but it had turned Red with rust.
Which, to me, indicates that a Blackfyre (black iron dragon) will 'wash up' somewhere looking on the surface like a Targaeryan (red rust covered dragon).
Hope that helps some Shubbalubbadingdong.
If Varys was a True Targ loyalist he would never have set Aerys and Rhaegar up to be opposing each other by feeding Aerys lies and suspicions. He would have supported the next king's reign and not undermined him to his father. He only claims to be one to Tyrion, that is the only time we hear him say anything like that. At other times he claims to be for, 'the children', 'the realm', or 'the people/smallfolk', to different people. Which tells me that all he does is tell people what they want/need to hear and believe of him.
Listen, Varys is one crafty motherfucker. He has served in KL since Aerys' good days before Duskendale. He is quite capable of setting things up how he wants them, especially with 30 plus years to get everything in place. So if he wanted a Targ on the throne, he could have accomplished that by helping the ones that were already there. Instead he finds this perfect replica of one, that they can spend years molding into exactly the person they want, while simultaneously currying favor and station with said child, just by having been his 'sponsers' all these long years.
Think of all the things Varys could have done behind the scenes over the years to oust Robert, or Joff, or Cersei if he Really wanted to. He could have assassinated them all and brought his precious Targ home years ago if he really wanted to.
I don't think he is a true Targaryen, like other have mentioned, he might be a Blackfyre. However as long as it means more trouble to Cercei, then all power to Griff.
But then again, having Westeros face another war might be more devastating in the end and now Winter is here, it is no doubt that even more people are going to die.
To be honest, I don't really want his story to go anywhere huge. We already have the "Targeryan living in Essos" angle covered with Daenerys, we don't need two of them. They even have similar personalities - hot-tempered, proud, etc. I'm hoping he'll just be a complication, similar to Renly.
That said, I do think he's a Targ in some relation. If Jon is too, then I guess they're all over the place!
It doesn't really matter if he's a red or a black dragon. He's been trained to be a king, he has tha hability and leadership to conquer Westeros... and that's why he's not gonna do it.
The fact that he's not in the show doesn't help either.
What I think will happen is: He's gonna engage with Arianne, and he's gonna go to the Eyrie. Having half the land conquered, he's gonna fall in love with Sansa... and then they both will be killed (by the Martells, maybe? Harry the Heir by a duel? Danny?).
It's a shame, because he seeemed like the one who could bring peace to the world.
DAMN that's interesting. I hope we figure it out in Winds of Winter... if it ever comes out
Yes, now for the wait.....
Doesn't it? He is claiming to be Aegon, son of Rhaegar and Elia. He is not. He may very well be Aegon son of - who the fuck ever - and that's fine, but it doesn't give him a claim to the throne, or the right to sit it.
If all that's required to be a king, is lying about who you are and having a decent education - then fucking Joffrey would have served. Look how YGriff treated Tyrion after their Cyvasse game. He is no true king. He is a foolish spoiled little brat, who has been raised to Believe he is King. Look how that worked out for Viserys, and Joff.
Since when had Joffrey the training to be king? What is the meaning of your family name? In a time of stability legacy makes sense, but when everyone wants to sit on the iron throne, you might ally with the one who is better prepared. And I think that is Aegon.
That's not necessarily true. He may have treated Tyrion poorly after this Cyvasse game, but that's because Tyrion just gave him a wake up slap. It doesn't excuse it, but o therwise he knows how to be a King better than Stannis and certainly better than Dany. He knows what its like to not have a comfortable place to sleep or to get meals everyday, as Varys explains. He's not a coward, hiding behind his men, as we see in the last chapter as he wants to lead the army to reclaim Dragonstone.
He's not perfect, but which King is? He's a better contender than the others in the game right now, and he will learn as the war goes on. IMO of course
I'm not really sure what my opinion is about YG's ability of being a good king. I mean, yes he probably would be a decent king, better than most, but that's not what I'm here to talk about
So don't take this as bashing against him....
What I'm here to say is that in feudalism the understanding of smallfolk is, well, not the most important thing for king to keep the peace and keep the realm working. The big masses aren't really that big a force in this, well I can't say period of history because it's not actual history, but you get it. What the king needs first and foremost to be good at, in feudalism, is handling the lords. In that YG no doubt has had education, but surely not any kind of experience.
Of course it's also important to keep your image to the smallfolk good and clean so they'll keep believing you have the mandate of god(s) for your job, but unless you are a jerk like Joffrey that should be somewhat easy - especially when most of the smallfolk never even sees you.
So I guess what I'm saying is that every contender for the IT has their own strengths and weaknesses, including YG.
Definitely, Young Griff in terms of everything but dealing with the dealing of Lords is a great contender. That's his only real weakness IMO, which is why I believe he should have started making allies the minute he set foot in Westeros (reached out to Dorne, for one thing). Give him more practice and experience.
Maybe I'm just hyping myself up for nothing, but as of right now he's my favorite contender for the Throne. The Targaryens have always interested me, and seeing as how ignorant Dany is I'm disappointed, (and I don't think Stannis is a good contender) so I was really hyped when I learned about this. Of course, chances are he's a Blackfyre which honestly is just as interesting as well.
George RR Martin has said he's "determined" to get Winds of Winter finished before Season 6 of Game of Thrones. He's cancelled appearances on upcoming conventions and has reluctantly turned down a lot of interviews.
Season 6?! Damn, that can mean it won't be out like February or March of 2016 even
Im pretty sure a Crown Prince is trained to rule from a young age. Or at the very least should be. I don't se why Joff would be any different. His parents were the King and Queen.
As for Aegon being better prepared, he has never even set eyes on his supposed subjects or land until the end of DWD. How does knowing nothing at all about the land he claims as his own or the people he wants to rule, make him better prepared?
IMO he is no better than Dany. Claiming a nation without caring one whit about the people in it and what they've been put through.
He knows nothing of being a King. He has never ruled anything, including his own emotions.
Eh I believe it when I see it. Hope so though
I'm not exactly holding my breath either, but he wouldn't be skipping conventions and the interviews he loves to do if he wasn't actually gonna work on it.
But Dany and Stannis do? Dany let Mereen go to shit, and just because Stannis has commanded men in an army doesn't mean he can command an entire country. And to be honest, they all have a hard time ruling their emotions.
No, no they don't. I have no love for any of them. They are all terrible candidates for leadership IMO.
If you could choose who would be on the Iron Throne, who would ya pick?
difficult question.... The people i like i would never want to put them through the pain of actually ruling.
I think that they should abolish the 'monarchy' and form a council to rule the Seven Kingdoms, with 1 major representative from the ruling house of their lands, and then 2 minor representatives that the major one would choose from his banner-men.
I also think they should overhaul the Night's Watch and run it more like the military we have nowadays. Where you are locked in for a term of 5 or 10yrs (depending on if you were sentenced there or volunteered), but if you fulfill your duties for said term, you can apply to start a family and reside in the Gift. Where you would still be supporting the Watch, but also raising your kids to support the watch in perpetuity.