Handsome Jack Talk Foreshadowing
One of my favorite parts of episode 3 was probably talking to Jack on top of the Caravan. Although, going back, the whole scene feels super foreshadowy.
The first thing is, Rhys' death. Jack seems to really want to make it clear to Rhys that he will die eventually. Now that might be a stretch, but you basically talk about how Rhys would like to die, being a good or bad guy.
Secondly, Jack tells Rhys that he will eventually need to trust someone he doesnt like if he wants to live. This makes me feel like a possible choice later in the series will be trusting someone, who we really shouldnt trust at all.
Anyway, it was just my little theory, because I got a forshowing vibe from that scene. :P
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But that's if you don't choose to have an alliance with him.
Well, that happens only if you don't want to have an alliance with him, but if you act cool with him and you say that you trust him, he actually gets along with Rhys and says that he is proud of him. They even try to high five (which doesn't work, obviously).
In addition, that scene (if you chose to trust Fiona over Jack) felt more like a threat from Jack towards Rhys, especially with his last words: "say goodbye to your body" (or something like that, I don't remember it right now)
Yea, like the guys above said - Jack did nothing but praise me and promise me a bright future in my game. We're BFFs, him and me, we're going places!
That was my favorite scene too. I chose to trust Jack, but I watched the Fiona version and was surprised to hear him admit that he died because he didn't trust people. Is it just me, or is he actually growing as a person in this new form?O_O
Surprisingly, he's FINALLY maturing.
That threw me off entirely... Kinda... worrying.
Also, just watched what happens if you say you don't trust him during that scene. He sounded SO sad.
I didn't trust him in that scene and he wasn't sad, he sounded pissed to my ears. He told me that it was a dumb idea to piss of the person I was sharing a body with.
Gave me chills.
Well it must be hard to know you're dead. That most people hate you (admitedly for things you DID do), and that the ONLY person who can see and hear you, doesn't much like you either.
Sometimes i genuinely feel bad for Handsome Jack, and think to myself 'he just needs a friend, why can't i be his friend? I'm gonna be his friend!' And then he takes over my body and makes me look like a complete ASS! Not cool jack, not cool.
Did you choose to trust Fiona or Jack in Episode Two?
Jack (Hail to the King, baby). Which made my option to disagree with him extremely stupid since he can, in fact, control my body now. And I royally pissed him off.
I wonder if we saw the same scene... In the one I saw, he was definitely angry, but definitely seemed a little hurt. He talked about how he thought you guys were becoming pals and how he saved your life and how people had treated him like that his entire life.;-; I found that really sad.
In all fairness, he probably wasn't TRYING to make you look like a jerk. He was just being himself. And knowing how bad he can be, we probably got off pretty easily. He didn't try to kill anyone, so I think we should just write it off as a success.
Some of that sounds familiar, but I remember he was pissed because I remember being terrified after I told him "No."
That's the impression i got too, and i genuinely don't want him pissed off at me - hologram or no. But, i don't want my friends to think i'm like that either.
'I'm not a douchebag guys, i swear!'
This is the playthrough with the scene I saw. Is it the same as yours?
Yep. Still just as scary as when I first saw it. Jack's menacing. when's he's pissed.
I guess I didn't register those self-pitying parts because I really don't care about how he feels about himself after all the horrific things he did.
Ah, but think about this:
Odds are, the AI is just that-an AI. He may have Jack's memories and personality, but he's technically innocent of all his crimes. So, while you're not wrong to distrust him, all he's actually done is be relatively friendly towards you and save the lives of you and your friends at least twice.
Such a great scene (only got it in my second non-canon playthrough).
Paraphrased convo:
J: "You just made a friend for life, kiddo!"
R: "............................"
J: "..............wow, I just realised how ominous that sounded! Like, I was going to kill you or something......I'm not, though!"
Sure. We totally believe you, JOHN.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
He shot at us though, with the drones. And he kept remarking about how fun it was to kill those bandits and generally treats everyone like crap unless they say exactly what he wants to hear. The AI even said it was probably going to kill us once we found the Vault. He remarked in Episode 2 about how if his fate wasn't tied with Rhys' he would have loved to watch Vasquez blow Rhys' head off. The AI essentially is Handsome Jack. It's just as evil as he was. Even if it isn't truly him there is almost no difference.
Oh come on, if you actually acted like his friend then he really hasn't done much to you except mess around.
Hehehe. "Cupcake". Heh.
It really DID seem like Jack was trying to help Rhys by taking over. You know, so he didn't get killed by incredibly slow, Avatar-esque, murderous flying jellyfish? But.......his personality, man...........just being himself makes 99% of people want to punch him out. Which actually happened. Wonderful work, Rhack.......though Troy Baker DID do a good Jack, didn't he? Sorry, tangent.
Anyway, yeah, NOBDOY wants an angry Jack in their head (for obvious reasons), but a douche-y, murder-y Jack that's actively trying to help you REALLY isn't that much better. I think he was trying to be nice, though, just in general? I mean, like when he got all buddy-buddy with Athena and tried to serve Cassius up to her on a silver platter?
The iPad version of the game lagged quite a bit, but it never really felt like he was shooting at us, so much as just shooting recklessly. And if you call him out on it, he does apologize. I don't doubt that he has Jack's personality, but I question how fair it is to also blame him for the stuff the actual Jack has done. As for enjoying killing the bandits, who cares? They're the bad guys. And a love of murder and violence is pretty much the norm on Pandora.
Overall, I think Jack has been pretty friendly towards Rhys, especially when you consider how cruel he is capable of being.
Also, some more food for thought:
Fiona and Sasha showed about the same lack of concern for Rhys and Vaughn and intentionally tried to kill them, AFTER trying to cheat them. Fiona even implies she doesn't care if Vaughn dies, until he mentions that they can't open the case safely without him.
Even if you're downright mean to him, he's still mostly peaceful towards you.
Totally agree - there's a double standard where Jack is criticized for stuff other characters do as well and are never called out on. BL2/TPS aside, in TFTB he's been nothing but helpful to me, and actually increasingly nice. Bandits get killed left and right anyway, and Rhys himself has an option to say he enjoyed doing that at least twice. And yeah, the drones spraying bullets at everyone was just Jack's recklessness - he acted similarly when hacking Vasquez's stuff, endangering Rhys even though his aim was to save him(self). It's just the Jack we know and love. :P
I found the exchange on top of the caravan very... endearing. Jack really seemed to treat Rhys like a friend, and he didn't have to - obviously Rhys was willing to obey him already (totally pro-Jack player here), so he could have been just bossy, like at the start of ep.2. Instead he offered to do me a favor and went out of his way to be nice:
Maybe it's all BS, but for now I think he's at least genuinely happy - with Rhys and with how things are going in general. And that makes me happy.
Oh, I agree. As far as Jack goes, he's actually been....uh.....nice(?) in my Jack playthrough. Sadly, "nice" Jack is still douche-y, murder-y Jack. Even IF he's actively trying to help you..............of course, he's still hilarious, so that balances out the moments where he screws everything up, intentionally or not (I'm looking at you, Rhack scene! "Cupcake" indeed.......).
Have you seen how that conversation goes if you tell him you don't trust him, after trusting him at the end of the previous episode? If not, there's a link to it in one of my posts above. I found it a little heartbreaking, because he seems so genuinely hurt and talks about how his whole life he's been dealing with stuff like that.
But yeah, I love that exchange. I think it's kind of better in Fiona's path, though. I love how he actually admits that the reason he died was because he didn't work with people he didn't trust. He's showing some regret for his actions and actually acknowledging his own faults. I love how he is growing as a person.
It sure felt like he was shooting at us to me. As for his apology, I don't buy it one bit. He needs Rhys right now, and he needs him on his side because what one does affects the other. I'd say it's totally fair since, again, he has Handsome Jacks personality down to a T and identifies himself as Handsome Jack. He even takes responsibility for all of Handsome Jack's actions during his first conversation with Rhys. He has the memories of a tyrant killer, the personality of a tyrant killer, he's pretty much a tyrant killer.
Overall, Jack is Jack. He's irredeemable and violent and once someone is no longer useful to them he'll cast them aside and finish them off. If he had his own body and was able to actually interact with the world beyond using Rhys as a meat puppet from time to time then we'd see just how cruel he is capable of being. All of Pandora would, again.
As for Fiona and Sasha wanting to kill Rhys and Vaughn/Not caring if they die, they work for Hyperion, the corporation led by Jack that waged a three year war across Pandora that resulted in billions of deaths and dozens of atrocities that are actually sugarcoated by referring to them as merely "Crimes Against Humanity." I'd say they were somewhat justified in their behavior. Plus now that they know Rhys and Vaughn as people instead of just seeing them as Hyperion goons, they've become quite cordial and even started up an odd friendship with them.
Huh, I just watched it... I couldn't do this to him - I mean, he's right - this is exactly what happened in TPS and started the downward spiral. No wonder he seems so hurt and then gets angry and vaguely threatening, it's like Rhys is reinforcing Jack's lack of trust in people. He treats them nice and they distrust him and then screw him over in return. Well, not me! (I hope, anyway, I'd be mad if we're forced to oppose Jack in future episodes...).
Which is why I just can't make myself not go with his plan at Atlas, character development or not - I want to show trust in Jack and have Jack be able to trust in my support as well. It probably won't end happily though, I'm kind of afraid of where TT might take this relationship.
Yeah, but that's because he believes he IS Handsome Jack. And during their first conversation, he's only just become aware of the fact that he's dead and still doesn't even accept it. I doubt he's even considered the idea that he could be an AI at that point.
Jack may have the memories and personality of the real deal, but that doesn't automatically mean he's the same. As of now, he still hasn't done any of those things. He becomes a lot more capable of controlling Rhys, yet we never really seem him cross any serious lines. He hates bandits, yet when he has full control over the unconscious Rhys, he makes no attempt to kill any of our party and head back to Helios.
I don't buy that Jack is beyond redemption, especially this version of him. He seems a lot more reasonable and has definitely showed some remorse for his actions. Being able to admit that it was his own fault he died is a pretty big step for someone like him.
And it seems a bit unfair to condemn the AI, then make excuses for Fiona and Sasha.
I feel the same way.D : I empathize with what he's gone through. I know it's left him more than a little messed up, but I can't bring myself to hurt him intentionally.
Well, he did try to kill someone. Cassius, to be precise. He practically ordered Athena to kill him.
He's self aware.
We were talking about when he first speaks with Rhys outside of his head.
How does having the memories and personalities of Handsome Jack and acting exactly like him not make them the same? The fact that he can control Rhys at all without Rhys' knowledge or consent, and that he does so, is already a strike against. He hijacked Rhys' body and used it to verbally abuse Rhys' companions and act like a douche. If your argument is that the act of him simply not murdering everyone in the room makes him good then that's no argument at all. And who is to say he wouldn't have, if he didn't need them to get back to Helios? They have no way of getting to Helios at that point and Rhys himself has no weapons while Fiona, Sasha, and Athena all do. Trying to murder them all would be stupid, but for all of Jack's faults being stupid isn't one of them.
Handsome Jack is very much beyond redemption. His actions resulted in the deaths of billions and he took joy in that. The things he did to Angel alone assure that there's no going back for him. And the AI? It's based on and has the mind of that same irredeemable monster, so that's naturally how it will act. Like an irredeemable monster. For the good of Pandora that thing needs to be deleted.
As for condemning the AI, like I said, it cares for no one beyond how it can use them and eventually it's going to stab us in the back as soon as it doesn't need us. Fiona and Sasha had to suffer through three years of war, death, and insanity because of Hyperion. The AI is not on the same level as Fiona and Sasha. They're criminals but they aren't evil. The AI, and the person it was based on, most certainly were evil.
For the good of Pandora...
What 'good' of Pandora? Pandora is a bandit-inhabited shithole wasteland. Industrializing it with an iron fist is doing it a favor. :P
Overlook tho. And Sanctuary. And New Haven, before Jack burned it to the ground.
I mean, yeah, for a great deal of the population "Meat Bicycling" is a planetwide sport and the number 1 commute to work, but there are plenty of people who are normal.
It just doesn't. Regardless of what he remembers doing, odds are he has not actually done any of those things. He's innocent of the many crimes people condemn Handsome Jack for. Yet there are a lot of players who choose to judge him based on those things. It's one thing to distrust him because of what you know Handsome Jack is capable of, but I feel like it's another to blame him for those things. If you judge him solely by his behavior and actions in Tales, he's overall been pretty nice and helpful.
Jack taking over Rhys' body on its own should not be held against him. I mean, Rhys and Sasha were in trouble, then he falls and gets knocked out. Both could have been killed. It would have been hard for Sasha to protect them both, and Rhys would have been left defenseless. Jack taking over makes logical sense. And yes, he acted kind of like an ass, but he wasn't THAT bad. It was his first time having a body in a while, after being forced to play spectator, unable to interact with anyone.
I still disagree that Jack is beyond redemption, especially in his AI form. I've already pointed out that the AI shows significant character growth. He takes blame for things you'd never expect Jack to and even admits some of his own faults. Being unable to act on his every violent impulse and having a lot of time to reflect might just be the push he needs to start becoming a better person.
Well, if those 'civilized' - and I use the word loosely - settlements on Pandora joined in on the effort to turn the planet into an actual human habitat... but it seemed they've been set on upholding the status quo of universal savagery, by acting hostile towards any and all Hyperion efforts to upraise this barbaric land...
I mean, seriously, 90% of Sanctuary citizens were Pandoran trash, from what I remember.
Why shouldn't he be judged on those things? He hasn't denied doing them and doesn't show any remorse for what the "Real" Jack did. He still refers to himself as Handsome Jack and everything. He never tries to say there's a difference between him and the "Real" Jack when talking to Rhys. His behavior in Tales has been classic Handsome Jack. He's outright threatened to kill the protagonists, remember? He was even trying to strangle Rhys in their first conversation.
Him taking over Rhys on its own is totally a strike against him. In playthroughs where Rhys sides with Fiona in Episode 2, Jack doesn't take control of him, yet Rhys survives anyway. That proves Jack didn't need to do it to save Rhys' life, he just wanted a body again. And what did he do with that body? One of his first acts actually was to try and get someone killed (Cassius, who really didn't deserve it), in addition to being a douche to everyone.
He is beyond redemption. No doubt in my mind. There was probably a time when he wasn't such a bad guy, but he gleefully skipped over the Moral Event Horizon with his actions in BL 2 and kept on going, laughing all the way. As for the AI, it would only be character growth if it wasn't lying. Sounding genuine is different from being genuine. All he's trying to do is get Rhys' trust because he needs him right now. Being unable to act on his every violent impulse will just result in a bigger massacre when he's finally able to act on them again after having all that violence pent up inside him for so long. It'll explode out like a tidal wave and we'll see just how "Nice" Jack really is.