Too Similar to the Starks?
Is the story of House Forrester a little too similar to the story of House Stark from the show?
Both Houses were lead by an honorable Northern lord so much so it became affiliated with their character (Eddard Stark refused to abandon his honor even in the face of death, Gregor the Good very much shared the same traits as Eddard);
both heads end up being betrayed and die an unjust death (Littlefinger betrays Eddard, who is then executed by Joffrey, while the Freys did by extension of their betrayal to Robb also betray all his supporting vassals including the Forresters, whose Lord was then executed by Frey soldiers in violation of guest right); both heads have an eldest son who must mend the damage caused by their father's deaths (there is some divergence here, where Robb is the natural heir to Edard and begins a rebellion against the Iron Throne in retaliation for Joffrey murdering his father, Rodrik will never have an opportunity to get his revenge on the Freys, or on Ramsay for that matter, but he still has to save his House from falling apart after a tragedy causes the loss of their previous lord);
Both Houses briefly have their home base ruled by a child (Bran the Lord of Winterfell and Ethan the Lord of Ironrath);
both Houses have strong matriarchs who are fiercely loyal to their family (Catlyn and Elissa, the latter is even suspected of betraying her eldest son to protect her younger child, I just hope this isn't the case as that would make the similarities just too obvious);
both heads have sisters who are constantly suffering throughout the series and just can't get a break (Robb's useless sister Sansa whose mentally tortured by Joffrey, helpless to stop her father from being executed, target of Littlefinger's borderline pedophilic infatuation and then shipped off to marry Ramsay Snow/Bolton, though I still think she gets too much favoritism from Martin, and then we have the awesome Talia Forrester who loses her father and then her twin brother, then watches her House get desecrated upon by her enemies and is the unfortunate target of Ramsay's strange desire to have a sister of his own, which is very bad luck for her, seriously her life is almost just as miserable as Sansa's, except her character is more likable);
Both Houses used to be powerful and influential in their own right (the Starks were the Wardens of the North, the Forresters controlled the largest known Ironwood forest in Westeros which gave them a reputation of possessing great wealth that spread as far as Essos as demonstrated in Episode 3 in that scene with Croft if he give him the pouch of gold).
You know I just realized Robb and Rodrik are further similar with how at their prime (discounting Rodrik's current state) they were both formidable fighters (look back in Episode 1, Rodrik fended off multiple Frey soldiers quite impressively before being crushed by a falling horse), both idolized their 'good and honorable' fathers, thankfully player choice allows Rodrik to be different from Robb if we want in some areas - and both had a bright future ahead of them which was destroyed by the Freys (Robb could have eventually won the North's freedom had the Freys not betrayed him, while Rodrik could have stayed in shape and have likely dealt properly with Ramsay Snow had the Freys not betrayed him).
That's why I'm so glad that while 4 of the Forresters are a little too similar to the Starks, Mira and Asher on the other hand truly give House Forrester an identity of its own, we have the rogue disinherited Asher who was exiled for falling in love with his enemy's daughter whose defintely having the most fantastic adventures in Essos (living as a mercenary of sorts, having an awesome female companion who is thankfully not a love interest, being chased by the Lost Legion, facing Dany's most dangerous dragon and surviving and even helping liberate Mereen which gives him a background role in Dany's storyline) - and then we have Mira who starts off as a handmaiden and gradually begins to learn the game of thrones (sometimes even feeling a little villainous which is fun) - her storyline is intelligent and intriguing, and her interactions with mainstream characters from the show is always awesome, to some extent she could be compared to Sansa, a girl from a Northern House living in Kings Landing, arguably being held as a hostage though by the Telltale timeline Robb is already dead and the North is part of the 7 Kingdoms once more, but just as how Sansa was trapped in the nest of vipers in Kings Landing the same can be said for Mira, except in Mira's case she is able to use this to her own benefit in helping save her family who live miles away, whereas Sansa was just a damsel is distress who constantly needed saving - though to be fair Mira did also need saving in Episode 2 from Damien - but otherwise she's a strong and decisive female character who can be a formidable foe whereas Sansa's only 'skill' was the reputation of her House name that made her more of a pawn than a player.
What do you think, apart from Mira and Asher, is House Forrester a little too similar to House Stark?
Comments
They've brought this up before and I honestly don't see it
Lord Forrester had like 5 minutes of screen times, I really can't compare him to Ned
Rodrik is not like Robb. Even though he is player dependent, whatever canon set personality of his is not as impulsive
Talia is not as wild as Arya
Mira and Sansa are nothing alike, them being in King's Landing doesn't make me see it. Sansa was held prisoner there for the majority of her stay,b
Mira is trying to get money for her family and (as Marge felt free to state in Ep3) we are free to go home when we like.
Gared and Jon Snow are also far from alike. Jon's whole reason for going to the Wall is because he knew he could never make something of himself in his House, since he's a bastard. Gared went to the Wall for his House, just as a cover for sneaking over.
Ryon is too wild to be like either Rickon or Bran
The only one I can slightly see is Lady Forrester, and that's only because she likes to get involved in Rodrik's business like Lady Catelyn did.
This is all imo, but I don't really see it.
Well said.
Thanks m8
I'm so tired of this claim people are comparing them based on their age and position in the house they're completely different plus Mira is in Kings Landing by choice in fact she doesn't want to go home you saw her reaction to Margaerys threat to send her back home. House Starks story arc was esentially to get revenge for Eddard (pre Season 4) while House Forrester is merely trying to survive.
This has been discussed so many times. At this point, you can't even call them a Stark copy. There are already a lot of points that make them different.
None of them are are identical copies to the Starks, but there are similarities that don't completely define who they are yet it does seem that at least a part of the story of House Forrester was inspired by the Starks, not just in terms of character but to some extent the storyline as well - mainly the struggle of a once strong House in the North that is left on the verge of collapse after being on the losing side of the War of the Five Kings.
I never saw any similarities between Talia and Arya - I noted one between Talia and Sansa, and not in terms of any similarities of character but with both losing a father and a brother as a consequence related to the War of the Five Kings (though in Sansa's case it was her father's death that led to the war starting).
I never brought Ryon up for consideration in being similar to Bran, as Bran had more screentime and therefore more character development, while Ryon still has more character than Rickon, so neither could be compared to Ryon.
Rodrik's personality can be set by the player, but the similarity I was trying to point out was in their situation, which was quite similar, however the results play out different since Rodrik is the head of a minor House.
Mira is better than Sansa, and she wasn't a prisoner either since the war with the North had already concluded by her debut, I simply suspected that she may have been informally trapped in Kings Landing like a prisoner since prior to the war ending her family was fighting for Robb Stark - though in further examination the Red Wedding took place in S3 ep.9 while the Battle of Blackwater took place in S2 ep.9, while the Northern war ended with the former, the Tyrells allied with Joffrey in the latter, it is presumably then towards the end of S2 that Mira has moved into Kings Landing, while her family would continue fighting against Joffrey for the duration of another Season before her game debut, which means in between that time (before the start of the game) its implausible to assume she could have freely moved back to the North since she both lived in Kings Landing and was in service to Margery. In all other regards Mira is nothing like Sansa, which I tried to emphasize before.
I've never compared Gared to Jon Snow, he wasn't in my earlier comparison since he wasn't a Forrester, not to mention they both have obviously different motivations.
While Gregor didn't have any actual character development on-screen he did share core traits found with Eddard Stark in the brief period of time we knew him, and in that brief time only his brave and honorable traits were truly shown which I see as comparable to Eddard's, in other words while we knew him for a short while he didn't seem especially dissimilar to Eddard in any way, maybe he did have further traits which could have distinguished him, but on-screen the side of him we were exposed to was similar to Eddard's personality, at least in a general sense.
They blatantly copy and pasted the Starks into the Forrester's pretty much. Sure they aren't 100% exact but they are definetly similar
Gared= Jon Snow pretty much to the point I wouldn't be shocked if he fell in love with a Wildling.
Mira= Sansa both being the eldest daughter in their families, both were/are kind of trapped in King's Landing, both were friends with Margaery, and many other things I'm forgetting.
Ryon= Rickon both youngest in their families, both were hostages of enemies, and Hell he even looks like Rickon lol.
Rodrik= Robb in many ways both being the eldest son, both fighting the enemy after they killed their father, both have similar personalities and heck both die similar lol (though Rodrik was just a game over restart screen).
Lord Forrester= Ned somewhat as both die early in the series, both have family swords though I suppose every noble family has a special sword, both seemed noble, and both fell to betrayal.
Lady Forrester= come on look me in the eye and tell me she isn't an exact clone of Catlyn.
Ethan= Bran kind of, but not really I guess just both are the second to youngest, both forced into the role of acting lord, and both fall victim to a villains actions though Ethan got the worst end of it.
Talia- Okay you got me I'm not seeing any similarities with Arya except they both smart.
Asher= No similarities that I can really think of and that is why he is my favorite protagonist because he is the only one that feels truly original.
No, I never saw any similarities between Arya and Talia, I saw a limited degree of similarity Talia shared with Sansa, namely their similar losses and their interactions with Ramsay.
Oh god...Now that you mention interaction with Rasmay...It makes me cringe that the bastard is sitting in Ironrath and Talia is next to him.
Hmm that's a dang good point.
Similarities yet also differences:
Whereas Ramsay desired Sansa both sexually and for securing the Bolton hold of the North, in Iron from Ice when he meets the Forresters he mentions he always wanted a sister when seeing Talia and wanted to make her his 'highborn ward'.
And when Rodrik returns to Ironrath Talia is the only one Ramsay hasn't either killed or imprisoned is Talia, so he does have some peculiar interest in her and Talia is quite obviously tramuatized from whatever just happened off-screen at Ironrath.
Both Sansa and Talia have incurred similar family losses (father and brother) as a consequence of the conflict between Iron Throne and the North (Gregor dies, Rodrik is initially thought to be a casualty of the Red Wedding, Ethan dies because his family supported the Starks and not the Boltons who betrayed them, the tragedy can all be linked to the Northern War of Independence that was either a direct or indirect cause of death for the family members she lost) - and both Sansa and Talia have suffered further still after the war thanks to the actions of Ramsay Snow/Bolton.
Ramsay is a sexual predator. He doesn't have any connection except that he wants to get into their pants (or dress?). And Roose Bolton is the one that helped destroy the Starks, not Ramsay, so they don't really have a similarity there. I'm sorry, like i know this is just my opinion but I don't see it
Ramsay acts with the authority of Roose Bolton when he arrives at Ironrath. Consider an alternate reality where the Forresters were Bolton bannerman, in that scenario they would have been on the winning side of the war - even if Gregor and Rodrik were both thought to be dead after the Battle at the Twins, Ethan would have become a vassal lord to Roose Bolton and there wouldn't be any doubts about their loyalties - and the Boltons would have likely naturally favored the Forresters above the Whitehills for their superior craftsmanship which would have been more useful to them - yet because in the canon the Forresters were Stark bannermen this necessitated Ramsay's involvement in their storyline following their faction's defeat in the war, as the Boltons had ultimately sided with Kings Landing.
Forresters supported Robb = Red Wedding happened = Forresters on losing side of war = Boltons want to assure their fealty to their new liege lords now that the Starks are gone = Ramsay comes to Ironrath and favours the Whitehills since they were always Bolton bannermen = Ramsay kills Ethan and installs a Whitehill garrison at Ironrath.
As you can see, while Roose killed Robb, this action would lead to the end of the war, which would lead to the Forresters coming off on the losing side of the war, which led to Gregor being killed and Rodrik being injured and presumed dead, which then lead to Ethan becoming Lord, who was then killed by Ramsay. Essentially, its cause and effect - and in this case Talia has therefore suffered from Roose Bolton with regards to the loss of her father, and then suffered from Ramsay Snow with regards to the loss of Ethan, neither losses would have happened this way had the Boltons not betrayed the Starks, which would have not led to Ramsay killing Ethan.
On a related note, I'm not actually sure what exactly Ramsay's motivations are behind his interest in Talia, though I don't think its sexual, but something malevolent nonetheless.
Ramsay did not kill Ethan or torture the Forresters on Roose's orders. He was sent there to get them to bend the knee and ensure continued Ironwood production. Ramsay and Ramsay alone killed Ethan, not the whole Bolton family
They're not similar to the Starks at all. Most of your similarities are just coincidences that TellTale probably wasn't even thinking of. The Forresters are not clones to the Starks.
You mistake my words, I'm not saying that Roose ordered Ramsay to kill Ethan, I'm talking about cause and effect - to explain it as simply as I can what I'm saying had the Forresters been on the winning side Ethan would have not been killed by Ramsay, however because they weren't Ethan dies - not because Roose orders it but because of the place his House is in after the war which causes Ramsay to arrive at Ironrath and eventually kill Ethan - this is not Roose's order but is an extended consequence of coming off the losing side of the War of the Five Kings.
The point I'm trying to make is the family loss caused by the war, Roose did not order Gregor's death yet was indirectly responsible for it; the Forresters had to bend the knee to the Boltons because the Starks were gone, and as a result of the Red Wedding Robb Stark couldn't protect them, the Boltons take place of the Starks and Ramsay kills Ethan - Ethan is not a casualty of the actual battle that took place on the Twins, yet his fate is linked to his Houses's defeat at the Twins.
Then by that logic, more than half of the Houses in the North and Riverlands are like the Starks
No - because the similarity I was highlighting was the similarity between Sansa and Talia - both had fathers who were the heads of their respective Houses - both fathers would then die by an act of treachery (Littlefinger betraying Eddard and Roose/Walder betraying Robb and by extension the Forresters), both fathers were succeeded by a son (Sansa's brother Robb and Talia's brother Ethan), and both sons would ultimately be murdered themselves as a consequence of the war (Robb who dies at the Twins at the hands of Roose Bolton to end the Northern faction of the War of the 5 Kings and Ethan who dies at the hands of Ramsay Snow to subjugate Ironrath under Whitehill and by extension, Bolton control).
And in the same order, Sansa loses her father, then her brother.
Both Sansa and Talia lose their father and brother as a consequence of the War of the 5 Kings and my earlier post shows just how Ethan's death was a consequence of the Northern War of Independence (which itself was a part of the collective war of the five kings).
In summary, Talia and Sansa are similar that they lose their father and brother as a consequence of the war, and both lost family members died as the heads of their House, Eddard was Warden of the North before he died, Robb was King in the North when he died and he inherited the North after his father's unjust death - just as Gregor died as the Lord of Ironrath - and Ethan soon died afterwards as the next Lord of Ironrath after inheriting the title from his father, however in Sansa's case both her father and brother were betrayed, in Talia's case Gregor was arguably betrayed when Robb himself was betrayed, while for the moment it doesn't look like the traitor among House Forrester helped orchestrate Ethan's death.
You don't have to explain every part, I know the story. You're diving way too in depth into this, I doubt Telltale would put this much time to make it seem like that. Any similarities are a coincidence
Similarities and coincidences - they all likely are just coincidences, don't get me wrong, I love the story of House Forrester, but even if the similarities are not intentional they're still there.
Yet... perhaps it doesn't matter, in all likelihood if it is just a coincidence, I still recognize the similarities, however in the end I don't think its those similarities which define them (except Gregor maybe...).
I had to explain it all to you since you kept misunderstanding what I said, of course you know the story, if you didn't it would have been even harder to explain what I was saying.
I can't believe so many people don't see the connection. They're not clones but they are certainly heavily based on the Starks to give the player a sense of familiarity.
I thought your post was really long so i actually didn't read it but I agree...Rodrik is either going to be killed at a wedding or he's going to get his head cut off with the great sword of house forrester (lord forresters sword from the start)