The North Grove is a Haunted Forest
I'm half expecting that Telltale will finally give us a good idea of what the North Grove is when Ep.5 is released, hopefully along with some clarity as to how Gregor the Good knew of it and just how exactly it can save House Forrester.
I looked up Ironwood on A Wiki of Ice and Fire which states that Ironwood trees are located in the Wolfswood in the North (Ironrath) - as well as in a ''haunted forest beyond the Wall'' - note the latter location is referenced to Chapter 21 of A Game of Thrones where Tyrion is the POV character,so while the game is canon to the HBO series it might help to gain what insight we can related to this subject from the original books.
This ''haunted forest'' may be a plausible candidate for where the North Grove could be located - we know from the game itself that the North Grove has been referred to as both a ''hidden fortress'' and a ''secret forest within a forest''.
A geographically detailed map shows the scope of the book canon haunted forest:
As you can see it indeed a vast forest and is within range of Crasters Keep - a place where Whitewalkers are known to lurk by and therefore at a reasonable distance from Castle Black. According to the wiki article four kinds of trees are known to grow there - Oak, Sentinel, Weirwood and of course, Ironwood.
Another notable location located west of the Haunted Forest is a hill called the ''Fist of the First Men'' - this is also the location of the Battle of the Fist of the First Men where the Nights Watch were defeated by the Wights and forced to seek refuge at Crasters Keep - where the mutiny would take place - which also brings us to the current timeline of the game where Jon leads a band of brothers to execute the traitors in the Crasters mission that Gared couldn't join.
One more notable location at the far east (technically outside) of the Haunted Forest is Hardhome where that infamous battle in Season 5 took place, we can probably safely cross this one out since the timeline in the game hasn't reached that point yet and probably won't in the two episodes remaining.
As the Haunted Forest does seem heavily linked to the culture and history of Free Folk and the Others, it seems likely so will the North Grove which must be located somewhere within this forest. While the Forresters control the largest Ironwood forest in the Seven Kingdoms we can see that the Haunted Forest is much more vast than the Wolfswood, potentially meaning there could be ten times as much ironwood there is beyond the Wall than there is within the Wolfswood.
The only evidence from the game itself that we currently have is the map Duncan gave Gared:
Gared theorized that the North Grove was located near the ''mouth'' of a Weirwood tree. From Gregor's own notes the North Grove is located "beneath the watchful eye of the Ice Dragon".
At this point the most logical assumption to make is that the North Grove is likely a hidden keep simply containing a supply of Ironwood hidden away and waiting to be discovered at a time when House Forrester's livelihood would be in peril - the Haunted Forest is full of unexploited Ironwood - however the North Grove would need to be something special - if it was just a supply of hidden Ironwood it begs as the question as to what's the point since the Haunted Forest itself grows Ironwood, what would be the point of a hidden citadel containing more Ironwood?
The most logical answer to that would be to protect it, an exclusive source separated from the more easily attainable Ironwood growing within the forest trees - perhaps a protected source in case of an emergency.
Of course, we all know Gared is not going to find a living breathing ice dragon, nor is he going to find the remains of an ancient ice breathing dragon either - HOWEVER, in the lore of the books it said that Ice Dragons roam the Shivering Sea and the frozen uncharted wilderness north of the sea known as the ''White Waste''. While the location of the White Waste isn't exactly defined the Shivering Sea does border on the east of the Haunted Forest.
The Ice Dragon is obviously a metaphor for something, the North Grove is likely a hidden citadel of Ironwood that may have been built either by Forrester ancestors or perhaps by the First Men (who would patrilineally be Forrester ancestors) and it might be located within east range of the Haunted Forest. In the Preview for Episode 5 we see Sylvi telling Gared the North Grove ''isn't what you think it is'' and implies the journey to it could endanger her brother.
Cotter wants to seek out the North Grove for his own undisclosed reasons - and this is where it gets interesting, for if the North Grove was nothing more than just a hidden citadel containing emergency supplies of Ironwood, what interest would a Wildling have in Ironwood, especially if it can be found elsewhere across the Haunted Forest. This does seem to imply that the North Grove may hold more than just emergency ironwood rations. However this doesn't dismiss the idea of a hidden citadel - it could be that the North Grove serves more than just one function - however it is only the function of storing this specially sourced Ironwood that is of interest to House Forrester.
While the evidence does seem to suggest that Gared will find a hidden citadel of Ironwood (though it might not be an actual citadel, it could literally be something hidden inside the mouth of a Weirwood tree that itself is culturally relevant somehow to the myth of the Ice Dragon), Cotter's interest seems to imply that the North Grove is related somehow to his own culture. We saw a Whitewalker on the cover for Sons of Winter, yet they were neither seen nor mentioned, however its unlikely their image was completely irrelevant to the story as it could serve as a foreshadowing device to relay another aspect of the North Grove.
It could just be to tease the allure of the ''unknown'' when venturing to find the mysterious North Grove and might not be linked to any actual Whitewalkers at all, or it could be to tease the Children of the Forest who carved the Weirwood trees. The North Grove is said to be under an Ice Dragon and near the mouth of a Weirwood tree - however its unlikely that Gared will come across the Children of the Forest though there's a better chance of him possibly encountering a Whitewalker.
What do you guys think, four episodes in with only two more to go, what is the truth behind the North Grove?
Edit - Thanks to community feedback, it seems more than likely that the ''Ice Dragon'' metaphor refers to a Northern constellation that can be used to navigate to the North Grove, or perhaps to the mouth of a specific Weirwood tree which itself could be within range of the North Grove.
Edit - I had previously speculated that Gregor's map did show a part of the Antler River and theorized that the North Grove may be somewhere near it. This does appear to be confirmed in Episode 5 when Cotter mentions the Antler River in a conversation about going up North to locate the fabled grove. I was quite surprised that I made a deduction like this long before A Nest of Vipers was even released.
Comments
I think this is the best explained and probably the most right theory about The North Grove on this forum... A longer text that I actually enjoyed reading...
I think it's foolish to just throw away the possibility of it. I don't think it's going an actual ice dragon, but completely throwing the chance of it being doesn't seem wise to me.
Cool.
Yeah, the bear symbol we saw in the abandoned camp might be envolved in this somehow. The game "forced" us to look at it or Sylvi wouldn't show up. It may be the emblem of the tribe that's protecting the North Grove. They could be Cotter's and Sylvi's relatives. Or maybe they are enemies or a extinct tribe.
Thanks, I was sure some of the mystery of the North Grove could be unraveled if the source material was re-examined, as the North Grove will be expected to fit in with the World of Ice and Fire Martin has established so far, so this left room to make some plausible speculation over the true nature of the North Grove using the context of what we already know from the books.
That's absurd, there's no such thing as Ice Dragons anymore, only three fire breathing dragons canonically exist at the moment.
The storyline of the game cannot be of consequence to the show's canon where the game takes place, its absurd to even consider Gared finding an actual 'ice dragon' - its pretty obvious Telltale is setting us up for a metaphor and not an actual dragon that's never been seen or mentioned in show (though has been mentioned in the books).
The ''watchful eye of the Ice Dragon'' is obviously not actually an Ice Dragon guarding a secret citadel, the Ice Dragon is a metaphor for something else related to some kind of cultural association beyond the wall.
The Bear is most likely a 'sigil' (I wasn't really aware before this that tribes had their own sigils like Westerosi Houses did though it makes sense now that I think about it) of Cotter and Sylvi's tribe, maybe just as it can help Gared's 'clan' (House Forrester is referred to as a clan within the books) it can also somehow help Cotter's wildling tribal clan, however the question is what the North Grove can offer Cotter that could theoretically save his clan, its logical that a secret supply of Ironwood could certainly help out House Forrester, but I doubt its Ironwood that Cotter is after to save his own tribe - assuming we learn more about his family in Episode 5 - and if so it does seem to suggest there is more to the North Grove than just Ironwood - the question is what it is and why Cotter is after it.
Law Graduate actually.
People said this about White Walkers too, correct?
Jon Snow mentions on more then one occasion that Old Nan told them about them. Old Nan's tales aren't so far fetched, considering how much truth there is to them.
Anyway,
Stolen right from the wiki:
I think this is what the metaphor you're looking for, the constellation that is.
I just disagree that there's is absolutely no chance at all of there being the bones of one, let alone an actual one (I highly doubt a living one would ever appear).
I've been trying to find a pattern on Gregor's map that fits in with the map of the Haunted Forest I posted above, comparing the two I tried to see if the shape of the rivers in one of the maps could fit in with the other, however so far I've been unsuccessful in plotting out the exact location of the North Grove by comparing the two maps.- WAIT..........
Look at this:
On the top left of the Weirwood tree you can see three incompletely formed lines representing three ends of a river, their shape is kind of similar to the Antler River from the Haunted Forest Map.
What do you guys think - is Gregor's map showing a part of the Antler River?
EDIT: I can't be fully sure about it...
"watchful eye of the Ice dragon" - Ice dragon is a constellation of stars that looks like (Ice) dragon and its eyes heading to the north while its tail is heading to the south.
We will find out soon what this North Grove is.
Look at the bottom left river and then it.
I'm pretty sure the ice dragon is "just" a star.
Yeah it would be cool to see an Ice dragon in the game but dont forget that this game takes place somewhere during season 4 and there was no sighting of an ice dragon during season 4. Which of course doesnt mean that there cant be one, I am very sure that we will meat one in the books very soon.
BTW what do you think about novel Ice dragon? Does it take place in Westeros or no?
@InGen_Nate_Kenny
That's it... of course... the metaphor I was trying to figure out - the Ice Dragon is a constellation, which have historically been used as an astrological form of navigation, it makes reasonable sense to assume that the Free Folk would be familiar with this constellation.
A constellation that may resemble a dragon, which could point in the direction of a certain Weirwood tree, through the mouth of which the location of the North Grove might be discovered..
EDIT: Of course there's still no way we're going to see an actual ice dragon, dead or alive.
That's actually been a debated topic among publishers and readers, since it seems Martin himself hasn't given any clarity.
I was thinking about that a lot and if it would be set in Westeros that would mean that there was probably some war between First men and Valyrian empire before the Long night.
There was a conflict between the Andals and the First Men, but a conflict between the Valyrians and First Men would have happened earlier than this - its unlikely that the First Men could combat against dragons- however the Valyrian Freehold didn't span across Westeros (with the exception of Dragonstone) - it only dominated nearly the entire continent of Essos - meaning if there was a conflict between the Valyrians and First Men - then the Valyrians were only interested in securing Dragonstone and nothing else in Westeros, and even then we don't know if the First Men lived in Dragonstone, though they probably did, and in that case there may have indeed been a battle where the Valyrians vanquished the First Men from Dragonstone but didn't go any further into Westeros (until Aegon came along).
I'm calling it now. It's an ice dragon
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Haunted_forest
''Types of trees in the haunted forest include ironwood, sentinel, oak, and weirwood.''
This theory makes a lot of sense, and I think the north Grove will have lile Ironwood trees in there that have been kept a secret so the Forresters could have something as a backup if something, like what's happening right now would happen. That's the why they choose to keep it a secret.
As to why it can save the forresters, I mean problably just in the way that the whitehills suck at chopping and crafting the ironwood shields so yeah they are ruinning the forest, maybe they have to bring some new trees from this place (that I suspect is the orirignal birthplace for these kind of trees) and will replace the ruined florest by the whitehills...
This is a pretty good story the one with Gared, I just love how evrything connects to saving the Forrester ouse, Gared is trying to find the North Grove, Asher is trying to get an army, Mira is trying to get political adn economical allies and Rodrick is trying to hold the house of being burn to the ground by the whitehills and the Boltons. Just awesome game
The North Grove is IN the Haunted Forest. but that is just the name of the vast forrest that is North of the Wall.
Could be. And if it is, the ruin on the Forrester map could very well be the Fist of the First Men.
Have you tried turning the map like they do in game, to see if anything matches better?
In the books, it's the Rider's eye that you need to follow, not the Dragons. Not sure if they made this distiction in the show/game universe.
I know, but that doesnt chsnge anything it is still the sasme constellation.
If it is set in Westeros (there are hints and similarities) i would assume it would be far in the past. Possibly in the Age of Hero's or before the Long Night. Either way, far enough removed from ASOIAF so as not to mess with the rules of the 'world' our characters are living in.
Yup, it is. But what if the Rider and the Dragon aren't looking in the same direction? Which do you follow?
Oh guys I just remembered. In the preview for the next episode we see Gared listening to the blowing of leaves in the wind. Book readers will know this is to with the weirwood trees, so I'm asumming we're close as the maps says near the weirwood whisper.
If we think it's a Weirwood Grove, you have to consider (as a reader) that it may be the Grove that Bran and Bloodraven's cave is beneath. So maybe it has more to do with preserving the Old Ways / Magic and what that represents - than it does with any Ironwood that the Forresters may get out of it.
The Forresters have secrets ( how to burn the Ironwood ) maybe the North Grove is more about Knowledge than anything material?
For the record, when actual living Ice Dragons die, their bodies melt into an icy puddle of water that never gets warm - just read the ending of Martin's the Ice Dragon (you know, then the dragon disappears after the battle, and a mysteriously appearing icy pond is subsequently discovered - and this isn't technically a spoiler since its never been confirmed whether the Ice Dragon is a distant prequel to ASOIAF), so unlike regular dragons they don't leave behind any discernible remains like skulls.
Its also been hinted at in the books that the lake in the Winterfell Godswood might be the remains of an Ice Dragon, not explicitly stated, however Catelyn did once remark how the lake always stays cold even while the rest of the Godswood heats up during the summer.
Ultimately however its pretty logical the Ice Dragon referred in the map isn't a real dragon but the constellation, and we're not going to find any remains of an an Ice Dragon because they would be blended in with nature (their bodies melting into icy water) and therefore unrecognizable.
I know, but I wanted the title of the thread to catch people's attention so they would read the theory I assembled, since there are other threads out there giving their own theories about the North Grove. Once I realized that it had to be in the Haunted Forest I wanted the title to catch people's attention, even seem a little absurd but ultimately have the mention of a haunted forest geographically linked to the forest where the North Grove is located.
He said on his blog is not set in ice and firea he wrote it before he wrote ice and fire.
Last time I chaceked Martin didnt say anything wheter it is or isnt set in Westeros. However there is a lot of hints that it is tied up with Whitewalkers/Others, even land of always winter feature in that novel.
Okay, i see. It really is a well crafted theory, good work Harian.
First of all: Awesome work, that are really good theories/facts. Iam curious what episode 5 will bring and what theories are ture.
Telltale is doing a great job with this game, maybe the best Telltale Game I've ever played. But I really would be disappointed if they named episode 6 "The Ice Dragon" because of the constellation. This name gives expectations that there really could be a ice dragon. Some loud footsteps, some dragonlike sound or just 2 big glowing eyes for a short moment and without showing an actual ice dragon would be awesome and make people talk about that scene. And that way they would take nothing beforehand the tv show.
Thank you.
Well Episode 5 might be released on the 21st of this month - do you think the penultimate episode will finally reveal the truth behind the North Grove?
Hopefully the Haunted Forest theory posted here will be either proven or disproven.
I think it will be solved in episode 6, or maybe they will save that mysterie for season 2. I still think they will end the game with Gared arriving at the North Grove.
Everyone, I may have been right - remember when I compared Gared's map to one of the North - and I speculated they were both showing the Antler River (therefore the North Grove could be somewhere close from there) - Cotter did mention it in the latest episode glitched early today (or yesterday depending on timezones).
Well, there is some extra information in the new episode of the game. If I interpret it well, the North Grove is more to the North-West (passed the fist of the first men).