I'm Just Furious at the Lack of Choice
Before I get the condescending question, yes, I have played Telltale Games before. In Monkey Island and Back to the Future, lack of choice isn't an issue for me since those are linear stories and it's clear that they are from the beginning. The challenge is the standard stuff for all point and click games.
I have not played Walking Dead, but I've watched some playthroughs, and again, your choices have consequences in terms of who lives and dies, at least in the short term. And for me, that's reasonable enough. Though it was ridiculous in the second game how everyone seemed to want the 12 year old girl to do everything.
Wolf Among Us has fewer options, but again, it's back to point and click games: you are solving a mystery. You also have some options to explore Bigby's relationship with Snow White pre-Fables, and there is at least one character you can save, depending on your choice.
Alright? Alright.
So we get Game of Thrones, a game where choice should have a HUGE impact since everything is politics. I'm thinking the whole thing should shake out in terms of a Mass Effect 2 style ending.
First episode Ethan dies. No matter who the sentinal is (okay, fine, who's second in command shouldn't effect anything), but also no matter what method you choose for meeting Ramsay. A show of strength and defiance is no good if you ultimately open the gate anyway. I wouldn't have minded if Ethan ended up dying in that episode anyway so long as it wasn't because he directly destroyed my political plan to keep him safe. If Ramsay had simply been stuck on the other side of the gate and shot him with a crossbow, I'd find it at least reasonable. But no, Ethan just lets him in.
Second episode is, I believe, the one where Mira can choose to help the coal boy or not. I became curious what would happen if the guardsman survives, so one point I ran off. Surprise! He still dies! WTF? How does a scrawny coal boy who can't breath and has no weapons fight off a trained guard, arrogant or no? I was thinking it would lead to more politicking with Tyrion and Ceresai or something, but no. I've watched a differen't playthrough where the player took a dislike to the coal boy and not only left him to die, but abused him at every chance. The coal boy is STILL your loyal minion no matter what. It makes NO SENSE.
In the Third Episode? The one with Elaena. I botched the alliance and she left Roderick. So I determined Roderick was going to be fine with that and continue to seek other alliances (as well as wondering why he couldn't just marry Gwen Whitehill and end this stupid thing, or why Asher did such a horrible thing in wanting to marry Gwen. It seems like a reasonable political marriage. I wish the story would explain that). Then Elaena shows up with Arthur and the guards. And I think, okay, that makes sense to happen either way because no matter what, Roderick was still her friend/ally. But after her betrayal, I still don't want this marriage for him, so I say and do everything I can to hold her back on a personal level. Despite that, come episode 5, she's in Roderick's bed. What the bloody hell? I never wanted that and did everything except kicking her out to avoid that.
I think it's also the Third Episode that Mira liberates the paper from Tyrion's room. I chose not to burn it because no one knows WHEN I got the paper, and as loyal subjects of the crown, I can "honor" the bargain and still get paid so far as I'm concerned. Even barter with whathisname the businessman who wanted a monopoly (Which is what I really really wanted to do). But thus far I've been able to do NOTHINK ABSOLUTELY NOTHINK with it. What was the point of getting that paper? What was the point of choosing whether or not to burn it when it isn't going to do anything for me one way or another?
And then there's Gerard. There's no choice to choose to stay and face trial. I did everything I could to be loyal to the crows, but there were no options to stay.
And then there's the matter of the Glenmore soldiers. I left them behind at Ironwrath reasoning that I could talk my way out of troubles with the Whitehills on my own, and all I really wanted was someone to keep out enemy soldiers. I even ended up taking the "traitor" with me, so he couldn't order the gates opened. Guess what? I came home to a deserted house with no one but Talia and Ramsay there. It was ridiculous. Who opened the damn gates when the point of the Glenmores being there was that they were rebelling against the orders of the Boltons and Whitehills in the first place? It makes no sense at all. And when the only people in the room are Talia and Ramsay, killing Ramsay seems wise, but isn't an actual option. There should have been some Bolton soldiers around, not just a deserted house, so that Ramsay's survival (aka why Roderick doesn't just draw his sword on the bastard) makes sense.
And then there's the traitor. It just doesn't make any sense. In my game it was Royland. And while I was suspicious of him for a while, after the visit to the Whitehills, where I took him with me, I no longer felt suspicious when I arrived home and clearly someone there had to be the traitor because Royland had backed me as he should and someone at home opened the gates to the Boltons, so the traitor had to have stayed behind. I've since been told that the traitor is always the person you don't pick as sentinel, and that makes no sense at all. It means both of these men are lacking in any true loyalty, and if Royland was a logical candidate until after the visit to the Whitehills, Duncan makes no sense at all since he's the one who Lord Gregory trusted implicitly and who has already worked for the good of the house in finding the North Grove. He's also the one who takes you to meet Gwen who tells you of the traitor in the first place. I was fairly certain the traitor would turn out to be the maester because he's the only one who made sense. Or, if you wanted shock value, then the mother doing something stupid to get Ryon back. But the whole Duncan/Royland thing is a shock, sure, but also a major disappointment.
Finally, at the end of chapter 5 we get a choice over Roderick or Asher leading the house. And you would think I would be happy. But it's so stupid! So, so stupid! We know the Whitehills are going to ambush Asher. Asher can tell something is wrong and that there will be an ambush. I had picked "Go to War" as Roderick's response, thinking that either he'd set a counter ambush or that we'd ride on the Whitehills to free Ryon while trusting in Asher to save himself.
Nope, Roderick just rides right into the ambush and is caught inside with Asher. Dumb! Roderick, you're supposed to be a military man who trained with the Young Wolf. Why you so dumb about tactics? I have no military training and don't even play strategy games, but I know that you don't ride directly into an ambush without a plan. And that a better plan is to just avoid the ambush and do something else, which was entirely an option here. And Asher knew it was an ambush too! and he had all these lightly geared pit fighters. He could have taken advantage of their dexterity and sent them creeping along rooftops like silent hunters or something, planning ahead. But nope! Walks right into the ambush he suspected was there! Why? There should never have been a choice between Roderick and Asher like that because Roderick shouldn't have been there in that context in the first place.
I also have minor problems with Mira's conversation with Tyrion. I have no problem with Tyrion figuring out that Cersei sent you. He's clever. I have a problem with 1) being forced to bring the wine (I knew it would be a dead giveaway), 2) being unable to choose alternate conversation methods to communicate with Tyrion. There's a guard standing at the door. All Mira needs to do is give Tyrion as significant look and say one thing while glancing pointedly at the guard. Tyrion is a clever guy. Whether I tried to help him or betray him, at least I'd actually have some options to play a game with him that I might win rather than being doomed to failure from the start when I know better.
Gah!
I'm just so angry. And disappointed.
I wanted a game of complex political maneuvering, and that's how the game was advertised, but that's not what I have here. And bereft of that, the game doesn't have anything to offer. It might make a nice movie, but that's not what I bought.
Comments
I agree with you. It's really annoying to play this game sometimes.
For some reason, in this telltale game, it feels particularly obvious that choices don't matter and that the player is being railroaded. Maybe it's because this is my fourth Telltale Game and I'm noticing the hand waving of choices more often, maybe the writing is getting shoddier.
I'm beginning to find myself in the mindset of, "who cares, this won't actually matter" whenever a choice pops up on screen. In the heat of the moment, it can be intense when a character you care about has their life on the line, but aside from that, I find myself caring less and less about choices.
No offense but there's no way I'm gonna read all this lol. I did read the last few paragraphs though. I definitely agree on the the ambush and the Tyrion cell part .
Great write up, I completely agree and LOLed at the audacity of some of these "consequences" reading this.
It's not just because it's your fourth Telltale game, trust me. This is my first Telltale game and it became blatantly obvious that I was being railroaded early on. I love the game on the first and second playthroughs, but it's getting pretty annoying nope that I know no matter what I do, excluding some scenes with slightly different dialogue, the exact same thing will happen every time.
I can tell you that with Wolf Among Us, the linear plot didn't bother me as much because it's a mystery, so there's a very limited number of ways that it can end, and the only satisfying way is with solving it. I felt the interrogations and investigations were fulfilling enough to make up for the limited consequences. And obviously Back to the Future and Monkey Island are meant to be linear (they're point and click adventures after all).
Walking Dead has the issue with the lack of choices mattering, but to take a couple of examples from the first season: You had to choose between Doug and Carla and that made a difference. Not a huge difference, but enough of a difference that it lasted for 1-1/2 episodes. And then when the one you chose is shot anyway, it's because of a choice someone else made. Similarly there's the issue of Kenny and the Salt Lick. Those don't bother me because those feel like characters making choices of their own and makes the whole thing feel more realistic rather than like you're being railroaded because the people around you don't just do everything you say all the time. They have different opinions and approaches.
But going back to something like Roderick and Asher: There was no reason either of them should have died. They had enough information to avoid their fate (particularly Roderick). They didn't fail because some other character did something, they failed because the game forced them to walk into an incredibly stupid position that I didn't choose, they weren't forced into, and no one else chose for them either. To me, that's the difference that I'm seeing in this game compared to other recent offerings from Telltale. I really can't even express how mad and frustrated I am. I really wanted to try to play politics in Westeros, and I can't, not because I make bad choices or even because my characters have bad luck, but because I'm not allowed to really choose.
Telltale should advertise their games as "Interactive Movies" instead of "choice driven games".
snif Carley snif
Still salty about that one
I fully agree. It seems that TT forgot how to make it look like your choices matter (or, at least, the team working in GoT). You can make so that different paths end up at the same place, but the paths must be different.
The Ethan example is probably one of the best ones. You can make so that he dies no matter what, but the “how” must be specific. They could had used the crossbow (as you suggested) or just made a black screen where we could hear the sounds of a fight, show the gate destroyed and then move to the scene at the main hall where you would be treated as a prisoner from the start as you just lost the battle. The other problems could have similar solutions too.
And, as you said later, there is no problem with same consequences as long as they are the result of someone else’s choice (like at the salt lick thing – you can make a choice, but another person choice frustrate yours). And that’s one of the main problems with the Traitor identity. It could have been independent of our choices and it would be fine (the maester was the best one, in this case, but others could fit with some extra work). It could have also depended on your choices, but, then, it would have to depend on a collection of them (and this could risk it not making much sense). But the way it was done was just… ridiculous. The traitor is defined because Duncan/Royland has the mentality of a 5 year old kid.
This game has its good moments, but is far below the expectations. Especially if we consider that TT already has a lot of experience with this kind of games by now.
I finally had enough last episode, where a specific choice actually lead to game over. I mean why even give me the option if you're not going to let me choose it and live with the consequences?
Yeah, I could see a battle at the gate. And then the director could contrast the positioning in the main room, Ethan negotiating from a position of weakness, not in front of the lord's chair, with Ramsy in his place.
To fix the Roderick/Asher choice, it really would just need a change of set up. Let's say Asher notices the signs of an ambush beforehand and is given some choices to send in scouts or walk in boldly (which will have eventual consequences on your pitfighter meter). If he walks in boldly, you lose The Beast (the big open target) and the most men but you get the most props from the pit fighters, if you scout ahead, you lose Bloodsong (if you saved him) as he can't help but try to get all the attention and work as a distraction for you to sneak past, allowing you to save more fighters since they aren't attired for fighting on the battlefield, they're meant for more ninja-like tactics. And choosing stealth without Bloodsong saves you a medium amount of men. But eventually the Whitehills get to Asher as he's trying to leave. He and Beska are last.
Meanwhile, Roderick arrives too late to stop the ambush. Hey, just because you get the information doesn't mean that you'll make it in time to save everyone. He and his men square off against some Whitehills outside the city. Roderick leads a charge and is fighting again, but crippled. Asher and Beska are barely holding the portcullis up, with Beska having squeezed out first on simple survival instincts. She can now hold the gate from the other side for Asher to slide under, but nearby some archers are aiming at Roderick, whose helmet came off in the heat of battle. Asher sees that his brother will die and has the choice to save himself or tell Beska to save Roderick and hope she doesn't realize that it will mean your death. With the correct voice acting, it can be done.
Same result as what we got in this episode, but much more of an illusion that your choices matter (and, in fact, they do to a degree if pit fighter loyalty and size and composition of your army are being tracked. And none of this stupidly walking into an ambush for no good reason.
This would have been waaaay better 100% agree with you. depending on how they finish things up on the last episode will decide if I am officially done with TellTale or not.. the only games ill play still are TFTB cus i actually feel like my choices matter in that one and i've already bought the season pass and TWAU if they ever come out with a season 2 which they should considering the level of greatness that one had, it baffles me why they haven't done it yet... Maybe TWDS3 if that ever comes out but only if clem is still in it because i like her but S2 to me was a disappointment and kind of boring.
I have to disagree that The Wolf Among Us was worse and still is the worst game by telltale. Yeah in this game it's like none of your choices matter, but in Twou LITERALLY none of your choices matter. Inconsistent and horrible.