I liked the Traitor scene
While I certainly realize and acknowledge, for a lot of people, it must have sucked--and made no sense, but I'd like to point out that doesn't apply to everyone. At least not me.
In my playthrough, Ethan sided with Royland on nearly every matter, and then chose him as Sentinel. No doubt Duncan wasn't pleased by this.
Then Rodrik showed up, and followed the same prerogative. 9/10 He would follow Royland's advice. He defied Gryff, he refused to kiss Ludd's ring, he brought Royland to Highpoint with the Glenmore Guard, and even decided to Rescue Ryon over expelling Gryff (which was Duncan's preference).
So, it wasn't hard for me to buy Duncan, feeling insignificant and angry, turned traitor for the Whitehills, under some delusion of helping the Forresters, and cementing peace between the Houses. After all, that had always been his goal. Meanwhile, Rodrik's own--at least in my game--has been to always provide hostility to the Whitehills. So, for me, they were polar opposites, with opposite goals. Thus, Duncan losing faith in Rodrik's leadership was, for me, totally plausible. Especially when he listed all the reasons why he turned traitor (the one's I mentioned in the paragraph above).
Lastly on that point, was his line to Rodrik. "You're not a leader, you're a wounded soldier trying to prove he's still a man."
Which, while not entirely true I feel, is certainly a valid comment about my Rodrik. I've played him as someone who constantly tries to project strength, and refuses to bend, no matter if it's for potentially better results. He wants the Whitehills and Boltons to know, he is not afraid, he will not be intimidated, even if that comes at the cost of greater things.
So, in conclusion, I understand where many people are coming from on the Traitor storyline hate, but I just thought I'd put it out there that, not everyone feels the same... and not everyone had the same result. Feel free to discuss.
P.S Russ Bain's baddass-as-ever voice acting also helps
"Shut your fucking traitor mouth."
- "WE TRUSTED YOU DUNCAN! MY FATHER TOOK YOU OFF A PIG FARM TO MAKE YOU HIS CASTELLAN!"
Comments
I love the traitor scene despite its flaws. Mainly because it played out nicely and emotionally for me. And I love the strong voice acting in the scene. You can hear that Rodrik is both angry and hurt that Duncan/Royland betrayed their house.
I see what you're trying to say, but still.... Telltale ruined them imo. It was completely out of character. Both Duncan and Royland wouldn't do that to us. I know this is Game of Thrones and we can trust no one, but using that excuse to ''shock'' us without giving a decent explanation doesn't seem right. Duncan even kills Ludd if you order him to in the non-canon scene in Highpoint. Even if it was kind of obvious, I'd rather the Maester to be the traitor, at least it would make sense.
Yeah, I agree. I just wish Telltale had at least done it so the Traitor's whoever you sided with least, as opposed to who Ethan didn't choose as Sentinel... Because Duncan was mine, but I ended up choosing all of Royland's suggestions. And we became bro's basically. I would have preffered if Duncan was, for me, the traitor, and was more like:
"Ethan chose me as Sentinel. But you, Rodrik? You don't even listen, let alone act upon what I say! You forced me to take this into my own hands."
Rather than Royland's: "You're weak, Rodrik! I mean sure, you defied and hit Gryff, refused to kiss Ludd's ring, brought me and the Glenmores to Highpoint, tried to kill Ramsay Snow, maimed Gryff, all while being crippled, but you know..."
I specifically prefer the Duncan traitor scene because of how emotional and shocking it is, after all Gregor and Duncan were best friends. What interests me is they don't start yelling at eachother until Rodrik has an outburst:
Rodrik: We trusted you Duncan, my father took you off a big farm to make you his castellan.
Duncan: I've cared for his family like it's my own.
Rodrik: THEN WHY!?
Duncan: BECAUSE YOU'RE RECKLESS RODRIK.
The Duncan version seems so much more emotional for Rodrik, understandable as Duncan helped raise him.
Rodrik (to Royland):
''You sold your loyalty like some whore on a street''
''For all your counsel, for all your talk, you're nothing but a fucking craven!''
Well yes, there's no questioning the fact the Maester was the most logical choice for the traitor... if the most predictable, and drama-less as well. But what can ya do? :-S
I fail to see why so many people suspected Ortengryn he never did anything suspicious, which is why I've always questioned how Ortengryn is the 'obvious' choice.
Duncan and Royland both have long, personal ties to House Forrester. The Maester does not. He's not even a northman, or a Follower of the Old Gods... he's from the south, a Follower of the New Gods (like the Whitehills) and wanted to serve in the Vale.
Duncan and Royland both kill Ludd Whitehill, if commanded to, and can be there when Ramsay's soldiers miraculously teleport into Ironrath. Is the same true of the Maester? No.
And what's his advice in the first episode? Just give all our Ironwood--you know, our only resource--to the Boltons for free and hope they don't kill us.
Plus, while Duncan and Royland are always arguing and presenting ideas, e.g. the Grove scene in Episode 3, the Maester just stays quiet, watching and listening throughout it all. I could go on for ages, but you get the picture...
I don't see a reason to distrust him, all I get from this is that he gives bad advice.
What, the fact he's conveniently absent during every Bolton-Whitehall teleportation into Ironrath isn't a reason to distrust him?
The fact he has far more in common with the Whitehills than the Forresters isn't a reason to distrust him?
The fact he tries to weaken the Forresters by giving away their soul resource isn't a reason to distrust him?
There are so many pros and cons for everyone being the traitor. We discussed these things so long and everyone had (more or less) a few reasons to be traitor but even more to NOT be the traitor. It really could have been anybody and people would still be disappointed because there were some reasons that someone else should/could have been the traitor. They wanted to make an exciting story with no "proof" to find out who the traitor is, so they made everyone "a little" suspicious. I dont like the result, making Duncan/Royland the traitor, they should have given more clues. Maybe the maester could have said (in episode 1): "There are 2 man capable for the job. They are both ambitious and would like to be the sentinel. But neither thinks highly about the other and how he wants to handle things." Maybe not the best way, but they should have underlined the fact that they are both ambitious. Maybe the maester would have been the best solution (for the traitor), but he had little screen time the last episodes. But maybe its for the best, since I dont think the Forresters would get another maester, since they have no money, no food and are almost falling apart.
I love the pure emotion behind Rodrik's outburst. And yeah the Duncan version of the scene is the most emotional version.
The reasons Dillon said are good ones already. And besides, I fail to see how Royland/Duncan/Talia/Mother could've been the traitor, so someone had to be.
I completely agree. For me it was also Duncan, and my Rodrik and Ethan both sided with Royland more often than not, which made Duncan's treachery and the reasons he listed for it completely plausible in my playthrough.
I understand, however, why many people are pissed. I've watched variations of playthroughs where Royland was the traitor and I must say, his treachery looks out of character every single time. He just doesn't seem like the kind of guy that would turn his cloak for any reason. And he seems way too blunt to be into secrecy. Not to mention that he fights the Whitehills on every occasion he gets and he straight up murders Ludd- the very man he's supposed to be spying for- in one of the game over screens if you let him. Now Duncan, on the other hand, always favors cooperation with the Whitehills- I can totally see him trying to achieve peace from the shadows- especially if you are playing a defiant Rodrik who, in Duncan's eyes, is steering House Forrester towards extinction. However, if you agree with Duncan, but just happen to have picked Royland as Sentinel, then again, for some players, the betrayal made no sense.
I guess I should count myself lucky that I just happened to roleplay in a way that made the scene believable.
^This. This way Telltale would have still kept the "your choices matter" bit and a LOT more peoole would have been happier. I particularly like that bit where your Sentinel chews you out for not listening to his counsel and having to take matters into his own hands. I really wish this was in the game.
I wish that it just accumulated whose decisions you sided with more (kissing the ring, bringing soldiers to Highpoint, defied Gryff, etc) with the Sentinel choice just being slightly more major than the others.