Really Jack?
Let me preface this by saying this story was heart wrenching and excellent beyond words. Killing Gortys, killing Jack, loader bot appearing to be murdered by Kroger, and the final battle... But. Was anyone else disappointed that your choices didn't matter in reference to Jack? I've always felt there could still be something good in him, yes he's broken and insane but he was turned from being a good man into that, and I felt he deserved redemption. I thought if I chose him every single time (which I did) it might someday make a difference. But no, your choices didn't actually matter, all that ends up happening is everyone hates Rhys. It just felt frustrating that in a game allegedly tailored to your choices, no matter what you did in the previous 4 episodes you go from being bff's with Jack to him trying to kill you inside of a minute, and there is absolutely no way of stopping that. I felt jipped. Like why include those decisions if they were never going to change a thing and get my hopes up like that? Jack is my hero, and he never even got a chance
Comments
Ain't no rest for the wicked
How you like me now
To be fair i dont think what happened with jack was entirely out of character, given how vain he is and how sycophantic Rhys can be towards him.
I mean, here's a guy who basically idolizes himself, followed and helped by another guy who wants to be just like him - in jack's mind the 'ultimate reward' was that Rhys got to be jack, it's just his method obviously didnt appeal...after that it's basically that jack felt betrayed and well, the rest is history.
Reality time: Jack is nuts, he wasn't that good already, but after TPS he turned into a power hungry pshycopath, he says that everyone has betrayed him, but he would have betrayed all those who betrayed him first eventually, and Rhys is the perfect example of that in case he accepts to rule Hyperion. After Rhys became useless, Jack repaid him for the favor and then decided to kill him, why? Maybe for fun, maybe to not share the power, anyway what matters is that your choices don't matter because Jack doesn't give a crap about Rhys or anybody else.
Oh god this thread is a haven for the Rhys stock pic
Well your choices really don't matter at all towards Jack. He's a textbook sociopath, while you may think you're getting friendly with him or creating an ally, all he's seeing is a tool, an asset to be used and exploited. There's no redemption for people like this because they are not going to change their ways, sociopaths are the living embodiment of a wolf in sheep's clothing.
The game gives you those choices because there are people (like yourself in this instance) who think they can change a sociopath's behavior or believe you'll be anything more than an item in their eyes. So TellTale was really appealing to both sides pretty well where you can try and be friendly with the monster or not.
So it's not that TellTale shouldn't have had the options there to begin with, it's more that you should just realize who/what you're really dealing with.
i was a bit disappointed in jack, but honestly i figured one of two things would happen after rhys uploaded him to helios, 1) he would give rhys power but ultimately still be in charge or 2) try to kill rhys now that he wasn't confined to his body.
he went with option 2, but really for jack he went with the kindest option 2 he could have, you know, for jack
Being friendly with jack and expecting to get something out of it is like people who knowingly date someone who is cheating on their partner with you. Your thinking that you're special and will get treated differently is a self obsessed delusion.
You are being used and played just like everyone else.
I hate that Rhys' response to Jack during episode 5 is the same regardless of your choices. If you always sided with Jack, you can't even question why he's trying to kill you, when literally 2 min before that, he was saying how glad he was having a partner he could trust. Rhys' reaction to Jack is immediately hateful and insulting. You can't talk about how you always sided with him, how you were always loyal to him etc. Why offer us these choices in the previous episodes if you're not even going to acknowledge them in the final episode, when they're the most important.
I trusted Jack all the way through, I wasn't suprised when he wanted to betray, even though he said it's nice he could have someone to relie on. You know why? He pumped his daughter with Edrium just to fufill his own personal goal.
In reality Jack says that he respects Rhys for making the right choice and that mutual trust will get them far, probably Rhys already knew that Jack didn't care about any act of loyalty he had showed him and immediately after he realized that Jack had planned to put Rhys' body into Nakyoma's device all along, that's why he had lied to Rhys. He's always been a tool in Jack's hands and this realization is what enraged Rhys so much.
Jack CAN BE your bff. Made you president, gave pizza, helped multiple times. Wanted Rhys to be the first recipient of robotic skeleton. What else did you expect from madman and mass murderer, you ungrateful...
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
THIS. THAT IS ALL IM SAYING.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
THIS. THAT IS ALL IM SAYING.
Yeah not good, risked life and limb over and over to save a mass of people who didn't even know him. Yeah he has flaws but take who he was in tps, and take into account his childhood, his wife, that picture of his daughter. His life is screwed up, like beyond words but dammit he tries. I don't want to get into a huge discussion about Jack, but like... He's not all bad. He's screwed up but he was good once. Some people deserve redemption, but like 3 times major decisions focused around friends or Jack and it literally ends in the span of about 2 minutes regardless of what you choose. It's disappointing. That's all I'm saying.
Jack was nuts and power hungry before TPS. Moxxi broke up with him cause he randomly massacred a village. TPS is after they brake up. Not to mention that he is such a skilled manipulator. He makes people forget that he was pulling all the strings in the first game!
...Or alternatively, she found out about Angel. Propably something about how he used her to remotely cause that whole kerfuffle with the Destroyer, nearly causing the destruction of Pandora. Regardless, i wouldn't really take the word of a ruthless master manipulator about another ruthless master manipulator. Especially when they have been in a relationship. Moxxi and (pre-handsome) Jack were mirror images of eachother.
But yeah, Handsome Jack was insane beyond any help and him turning on you was expected. I just expected more...Finesse about how he went about it. Not:
"I'm gonna shove this robot skeleton up yo butt, k?"
"NO!"
"You filthy traitor!"
I mean, yeah its the nature of his insanity that he really does see anyone disagreeing with him as traitors and he is wholly unable to understand that they might not be betraying him as much as they are merely defendending themselves. Heck, he called ANGEL a traitor for standing up for herself after the torture he put her through after his rise to power. But i would have thought that he would have seen Rhys's possible reaction and planned it out a lot better. He was insane, but he was also extremely intelligent up untill that point
omg i love your point about him being intelligent b/c in my second playthrough at the final confrontation i chose a dialogue option like 'you're not that smart' and he was like (paraphrasing from shitty memory) 'maybe not. brains aren't that important in a leader- plenty without em' lol
idk dude. ppl seem to think he went from hero to villain in the pre sequel but even in the beginning he was clearly narcissistic and only doing the things he was doing in the pursuit of personal glory/ to fulfil some sort of hero narrative he'd imagined for himself. even if some of his evilness comes from how his life is screwed up, his life is screwed up largely because his ideas about himself and other people and how they relate to him were so screwed up to begin with. I just think people go too easy on him and he's actually a funner character when you accept how truly fkn evil he is haha.
Play Borderlands 2. Just do it. You'll see him as he truly is-a murderer, a Psychopath, a Big-Brother-style dictator, a fascist, a tyrant, a monster.
Time and time again, I've seen hundreds of people, HUNDREDS OF MISGUIDED, NAIVE, FOOLS fall into the insane school of thought that "JACK IS A GOOD GUY AND A NICE ONE." Here's the thing: He isn't.
Right from the start, from his creation, he was meant to be a Classic Villain, the typical fictional nemesis. Here's the list:
And besides, look at all the horrific things he's done. I'm going to assume that you haven't played the game, so here's your homework.
And how about everyone who's still going "HURR DURR HE'S STILL GUD GAI" realises this? The whole point of Jack in Tales was this. No matter how sympathetic he is, no matter how he treats Rhys, no matter how nice at times he seems to be-he's still a villain, and even if you truly decided to throw in your lot with him, he'd still kill you in the end. You're President? GREAT! HAVE FUN IN THIS NEW ROBO-BODY WHICH I WILL FORCIBLY UPLOAD YOU INTO!
Oh yeah, and I'll leave these here:
MURDERER
LIAR
PSYCHOPATH
SADIST
ABUSER
DICTATOR
Seeing as how, she never shares any info on Angel, you know considering how much the Vault Hunters trusted her (Angel), I would say it's say to that Jack kept her a secret, probably even from Nisha.
And mirror images Moxxi enjoyed playing people and violence but she wasn't power hungry and she did actually have more morals than most. If she was a mirror image of Jack, she would've stayed with the Hodunks, sold Ellie off to be the clan wife to position herself in power, and she probably also would've tried to conquer the Zaffords then other bandit clans and then go after the Crimson Raiders. Since Episode 3, everyone makes a big deal about how great Scooter is, well where did you think he learned all of it from, he's not smart enough to learn things like honor and sacrifice by himself, in my opinion.
Last point, I agree with you. Up till your comment about his intelligence, I think you nail it. But Jack is high level intelligence but he's stubborn and has psychosis. Combining those does mean he is capable of making, what would seem to a sane person, a stupid decision. He could've been so dead positive that Rhys would willingly go along, or even if he resisted would easily be forced that he didn't really think things through. Also while Jack is a master schemer, all of those had years of planning. For Tales, Jack only had a brief time to make a plan and had to do a lot of improvisation. TPS shows that in those situations, Jack relies more on others for ideas or "inspiration" for ideas.
I'm not disagreeing that the Rhys vs Jack scenes could've been done better, though.
A lot people go way too easy on Jack. As much as I love him, he ruins the lives of every person in the Borderlands universe. And the idea that Jack is worth more than everyone else in Borderlands? I laugh and find it funny but to even suggest that is kind of unsettling.
Pretty heavy assumption dude... Matter of fact I have played all the borderlands games in depth, and felt this way before presequel. Wrote a 6 page paper on his mental state in my college psychology class. Have level 50 of each BL2 vault Hunter aside from Krieg who is level 72. Two max level characters in presequel. Cosplayed Jack at PAX east. Follow Dameon Clarke on Twitter, read all the echocasts, even read the borderlands books which were kinda crap. I know my borderlands. Die hard fan. Used Jack quotes to audition and got into a college play. I know the character pretty well. You clearly put a lot of thought time and effort into your argument, which is honestly kind of a bummer when you realize it had absolutely nothing at all to do with what I said. I'm talking about how in a game allegedly tailored around choices your choices in reference to a major character are meaningless and that it disappointed me. You wanna argue about Jacks villainy and or heroics that is an entirely different discussion. I'm talking about the writing of the story arc, not moral philosophy or the difference between right and wrong. Stay on topic there buddy.
You wrote a paper about Handsome Jack's mental state? Hands down, you know the character, but I still think that choices are useless with him because he doesn't care about Rhys, not because of the writing.
Good to know, good to know...
Apologies. I'm in high school and I'm doing philosophy. Which will explain the previous post.
Roland was a ruthless bandit who helped kill many innocent Hyperion employees and Jack's daughter but Jack stopped him. That makes him a hero in my book.
@HandsomeRhys I hate you mate. I wanted that name but you picked it.
How were all the hyperion workers the vault hunters killed assholes? They were trying to make a honest living and defended themselves when bandits attacked.
Also most of the people Roland was trying to save were bandits just like him.
What can I say? Everybody wants to be me, you can tell from all the Timothies I've got around this forum.