Rule Hyperion was sadly a waste. I don't know what I was expecting but I really wish it led to some extra scene or line during Jack's final speech. But instead you're more punished for it than anything else which was really the only bummer for me.
I felt the whole episode really didn't make sense for a pro-Jack player. I think even with the story they wanted to write, it could have been done, and in a way that made sense to whichever side you took. Example: antiJack plays largely the same, but proJack has it being Fiona being the one who destroys Helios in the rush to escape. Rhy's cybernetics will still be removed, thus removing Jack from the story, but in a proJack playthrough it could be forced on him, or only after whatever Rhys' moral line is crossed can he do it himself. Even the reasoning behind Fiona and Rhys being angry at eachother in the present day story could have worked either way, with it being over a true betrayal (Rhy picking Jack, Fiona crashing the station and taking the beacon) or the misunderstanding of one ditching the other.
tl;dr My biggest complaint is that the branch for players who had been on a proJack route was cut off right at the start, making Rhys act out of character for his subsequent scenes, and making the rest of the episode feel jarring, because it was no longer the story I had been playing, it was the other side of it.
The point was...Jack was always a villain. No matter what you do, you can never trust him. He's not a hero, he's not brave and he's definitely not a good person.
I felt the whole episode really didn't make sense for a pro-Jack player. I think even with the story they wanted to write, it could have bee… moren done, and in a way that made sense to whichever side you took. Example: antiJack plays largely the same, but proJack has it being Fiona being the one who destroys Helios in the rush to escape. Rhy's cybernetics will still be removed, thus removing Jack from the story, but in a proJack playthrough it could be forced on him, or only after whatever Rhys' moral line is crossed can he do it himself. Even the reasoning behind Fiona and Rhys being angry at eachother in the present day story could have worked either way, with it being over a true betrayal (Rhy picking Jack, Fiona crashing the station and taking the beacon) or the misunderstanding of one ditching the other.
tl;dr My biggest complaint is that the branch for players who had been on a proJack route was cut off right at the start, making Rhys act… [view original content]
No kidding? I never expected him to be. But I expected a narrative that made sense with the path of decisions I'd made, and didn't get that. Whether that ended with Jack crossing moral bounderies Rhys couldn't bring himself to, full on Evil Rhys, or a betrayal that made sense for the character, I was ready to face those consequences because they would be deserved. Even if it meant the end of Rhys too (something I believed might happen in a proJack run) What we got was a narrative that only made sense for anti-jack players, and that was a real letdown.
The point was...Jack was always a villain. No matter what you do, you can never trust him. He's not a hero, he's not brave and he's definitely not a good person.
Well Jack did cross the line. Even if you wanted to play Rhys as a complete scumbag who worships Jack, he still has self preservation instincts. He doesn't love Jack enough to give up his own life. And once Jack reveals his plans for Rhys, I think it's a little thick headed of the player to complain about the choices you're given as Rhys. Maybe they should've added dialogue that stalls the situation, like trying to convince Jack that he should use someone else and then you slowly realize that Jack can't be reasoned with, hence why you go through with removing the cybernetics while he's pleading to you, cause you know he's two-faced. That is something that could've been done better. But this idea of trying to be pro-Jack because we can and the story should work for us is kind of silly when you think that this arc has to now be worked into the overall Borderlands canon (which already has enough plot holes).
No kidding? I never expected him to be. But I expected a narrative that made sense with the path of decisions I'd made, and didn't get that.… more Whether that ended with Jack crossing moral bounderies Rhys couldn't bring himself to, full on Evil Rhys, or a betrayal that made sense for the character, I was ready to face those consequences because they would be deserved. Even if it meant the end of Rhys too (something I believed might happen in a proJack run) What we got was a narrative that only made sense for anti-jack players, and that was a real letdown.
I, like most people, loved the episode, but things I disliked were:
* Why was Finch the only villain we were able to extract revenge on… more? He was the one I had the least interest in killing, but was also the only one I could. I had Fiona say to Vallory in Episode 3, "I'm going to kill you." Doesn't happen. When Kroger shot Loader Bot on Helios, I was like, "You're going to die for that." Doesn't happen. And when Kroger was about to stab Fiona, I kept waiting for an option to come up, as Rhys, to like charge him or something. Doesn't happen. I also was hoping for more than one line with Yvette, as Rhys, since our conversation last episode was so electrifying. But, again, doesn't happen. Nit-picks, I know, but disappointing.
* I found certain things very predictable. I knew Loader Bot would force us into that pod, and stay behind. And he does. I knew Sasha would jump out the caravan to use the detonator, and she does. Then she also surviv… [view original content]
I guess it's better to say that Jacks plans for a proJack Rhys make no sense in the first place. Why make him prez? Why kill your best ally? Jack has been shown to be ruthless and psychotic, but not stupid. A loyal and alive Rhys would have made more sense then a dead one. His plan would have worked for an antiJack Rhys, but it didn't add up for one who had been a willing or even eager ally.
Like I said in my original comment, the events could have still played out in a pro playthrough (crashing Helios, removing cybernetics and thus Jack, etc etc etc) but in a way that worked better with the rest of a proJack story rather than completely opposite to that.
Basically, since I played the game proJack, I expected it to better reflect that decision because it was such an important plot piece, but in the end neither Jack or Rhys treated my previous gameplay (and thus the story) like that's how it had been, so all actions and dialogue seemed offbeat.
Well Jack did cross the line. Even if you wanted to play Rhys as a complete scumbag who worships Jack, he still has self preservation instin… morects. He doesn't love Jack enough to give up his own life. And once Jack reveals his plans for Rhys, I think it's a little thick headed of the player to complain about the choices you're given as Rhys. Maybe they should've added dialogue that stalls the situation, like trying to convince Jack that he should use someone else and then you slowly realize that Jack can't be reasoned with, hence why you go through with removing the cybernetics while he's pleading to you, cause you know he's two-faced. That is something that could've been done better. But this idea of trying to be pro-Jack because we can and the story should work for us is kind of silly when you think that this arc has to now be worked into the overall Borderlands canon (which already has enough plot holes).
I think maybe the AI had some kind of flaw, bug, or something set too high (ex: too narcissistic(lol) and too much blood lust). Watching lets play of all the episodes again, I get the feeling something was wrong with the Handsome Jack AI. I think if that's what was going on, we should've been told, though. It seemed like Yvette knew a little more about the AI then we did, so that was an opening. I dunno, I'm kinda grasping for straws. I really want an explanation for that whole scene, other than 'Jack's a jerk.' That isn't good enough for me either. He was a smart, manipulative tactician. He was desperate when Angel died, so that was why he threw his cards down. He kinda knew what he was doing, because of the Vault of Knowledge. We did see Lilith captured, after all. It was too forced without enough detail or explanation as to why.
I guess it's better to say that Jacks plans for a proJack Rhys make no sense in the first place. Why make him prez? Why kill your best ally?… more Jack has been shown to be ruthless and psychotic, but not stupid. A loyal and alive Rhys would have made more sense then a dead one. His plan would have worked for an antiJack Rhys, but it didn't add up for one who had been a willing or even eager ally.
Like I said in my original comment, the events could have still played out in a pro playthrough (crashing Helios, removing cybernetics and thus Jack, etc etc etc) but in a way that worked better with the rest of a proJack story rather than completely opposite to that.
Basically, since I played the game proJack, I expected it to better reflect that decision because it was such an important plot piece, but in the end neither Jack or Rhys treated my previous gameplay (and thus the story) like that's how it had been, so all actions and dialogue seemed offbeat.
The Sentinel gets a tad bit more difficult with the higher dificulty, trust me on that. On ultimate vault hunter, even with an awesome setup and shock sticky quasar, without my digi-jacks it gets really difficult. Anyways, I just thought that the Sentinal's design was amazing! That's why I expected more. It felt blah next to the Sentinal and the Warrior to me. It was awesome seeing something that big, but that was it. I know telltale could've done more justice to the design. I mean, look at the inside of that thing!
@J-Master@Deltino I will give you guys that one. If it was in FPS fasion, it would've probably been a pain to fight, especially if they went original borderlands and made us shoot only the critical. I still think it was cheesy, especially with the Power Rangers reference. Don't get me wrong, I loved that show when I was younger! I dunno, I figured you'd get to fight for gortys, but I though it would be more like the first episode when you first got loaderbot. More I decide how to beat up the Traveler, less button combo, ya know?
Sorry, I didn't feel like doing multiple replies lol.
Personally I thought the Sentinel was a joke, and the "Invincible" Sentinel even more so, at least on normal mode. Honestly, in comparison t… morehe Traveler took more effort, since I had to actually pay attention to the prompts, while I just bunny-hopped around the Sentinel taking pot-shots at his face with Rhys' ten-levels-obsolete shotgun.
Though to be fair, it might just have been Timothy and his OP digi-Jacks, and it is a pretty good shotgun.
(Aaaaand thinking of digi-Jacks made me sad again. Crap.)
Because jack didn't want allies, he doesn't want equals, he doesn't want to share power, and he doesn't want any liabilities. What jack did is perfectly in character. You just got fooled into thinking that because jack was stroking your ego that you were special. You thought jack would treat you differently than everyone else.
I guess it's better to say that Jacks plans for a proJack Rhys make no sense in the first place. Why make him prez? Why kill your best ally?… more Jack has been shown to be ruthless and psychotic, but not stupid. A loyal and alive Rhys would have made more sense then a dead one. His plan would have worked for an antiJack Rhys, but it didn't add up for one who had been a willing or even eager ally.
Like I said in my original comment, the events could have still played out in a pro playthrough (crashing Helios, removing cybernetics and thus Jack, etc etc etc) but in a way that worked better with the rest of a proJack story rather than completely opposite to that.
Basically, since I played the game proJack, I expected it to better reflect that decision because it was such an important plot piece, but in the end neither Jack or Rhys treated my previous gameplay (and thus the story) like that's how it had been, so all actions and dialogue seemed offbeat.
My main qualm was Felix's story to Fiona if you chose to try to have him join your mission. He says that the dresser was never supposed to fall out and if it hadn't, Fi and Sasha would have found the money with a note explaining everything and that the money that was blown up was fake because while Fi was unconscious, he bypassed the locks on the case and swapped it and left the real money in the dresser. This was a load of BS in my opinion for a few reasons. If he did bypass the security on the case and swap the money why didn't he notice the bomb? If he really is as great as the game made him out to be, he would have found it and tossed the case no matter what Fi said. Also, I find it hard to believe that he, their father, would not have hinted at this 'part of a bigger heist' to Fi before the race. I'm sure no matter what the circumstances were, he would have left at least a riddle or code. And how dod the money NOT get taken by bandits or Valerie? That dresser was sitting there for along time and you mean to tell me that no one, especially Valerie, thought to search it? Get outta here. Amd how dos Fiona contact him in the first place? I'm sure he didn't leave his number for her. I was very disappointed with this scene because it just seemed like it was sloppily put together because no one thought that many people would choose to save Felix(I didn't until I saw that he would join the story again) besides that, the story pandering to Anti Jack players and (for obvious reasons but the choice should be available for this type of game) and thefact that the game glossed over how Fionma and Sasha got back to the caravan after placing the charge, this game is incredible. The story is captivating, the world and characters are amazingly unique and I love how get to choose who Rhys' love interest. I loved the ending and can't wait until Season 2!!
I think you're misunderstanding my problem with the story. I always expected betrayal in some form, some kind of dramatic sequence with a hurt and betrayed Rhys was what I was waiting for. Instead I was railroaded into a narrative that only really fit with going against Jack from the start, or at least playing a very reluctant to trust Jack Rhys. All dialogue made no sense with a trust route, Jacks plan didn't make much sense with a trust route (why use the exoskeleton when a Rhys who trusted Jack in ep 2 could already be fully controlled by him? Why so directly make Rhys an enemy when he'd been playing along so nicely? etc)
What I wanted, what I thought the narrative was going to go for if you trusted Jack, was Dark Rhys, and whether or not you could have him embrace that or regret that. I was ready and excited for some heart wrenching punishment for my choice to make a deal with the devil. But in the end Rhys is good, and treated as good, and acts like a woobie good guy in the end even if you've played him as a selfish dickbag. So the last episode only makes sense if you've been playing him one way, and since the game is supposed to be about choosing paths, that was a real let down.
Because jack didn't want allies, he doesn't want equals, he doesn't want to share power, and he doesn't want any liabilities. What jack did… more is perfectly in character. You just got fooled into thinking that because jack was stroking your ego that you were special. You thought jack would treat you differently than everyone else.
You were wrong.
This. This is exactly what I keep repeating like a broken record in some demented subconscious hope that saying it enough times will alter reality and make it happen. There were so many ways this plot could have been handled better. The problem isn't Jack betraying a pro-Jack Rhys, it's that the 'consequences' of trusting Jack are... exactly the same as not trusting him. Fiona and Sasha still like you. Vaughn still likes you. You suddenly only have hateful dialog options when talking to Jack.
Where is the Rhys who sold Vaughn out to Vasquez, repeatedly lied to Fiona and Sasha and agreed with Jack on everything, including how killing was actually fun? The Rule Hyperion ending made it look like Rhys was enjoying the idea of becoming a dictator and ruling the Universe. But nope, now he's suddenly a nice guy and no one is going to hold anything he did against him.
If anything, a pro-Jack Rhys should have tried to deactivate Jack in ep.5 in order to take power for himself, not continue with the beacon plan.
Damn, it was such a good game and it disappointed me so badly at the very end that it broke my heart.
I think you're misunderstanding my problem with the story. I always expected betrayal in some form, some kind of dramatic sequence with a hu… morert and betrayed Rhys was what I was waiting for. Instead I was railroaded into a narrative that only really fit with going against Jack from the start, or at least playing a very reluctant to trust Jack Rhys. All dialogue made no sense with a trust route, Jacks plan didn't make much sense with a trust route (why use the exoskeleton when a Rhys who trusted Jack in ep 2 could already be fully controlled by him? Why so directly make Rhys an enemy when he'd been playing along so nicely? etc)
What I wanted, what I thought the narrative was going to go for if you trusted Jack, was Dark Rhys, and whether or not you could have him embrace that or regret that. I was ready and excited for some heart wrenching punishment for my choice to make a deal with the devil. But in the end Rhys is good, and treated as good, … [view original content]
Same here dude, there's nothing like being let down by the story in the final stretch. I wanted to keep supporting Jack even if it meant it would kill Rhys. That the betrayal could either be as you suggested, Rhys wanting to be top dog, or for a complete loyalty playthrough, instead of helping a dying Rhys after the Helios crash Jack could use the opportunity to try and take over his body then. Just something that jived more with the plotline I had committed myself to, instead of forcing me to play Rhys good all of a sudden and having him be subsequently good in all non player controlled dialogue.
This. This is exactly what I keep repeating like a broken record in some demented subconscious hope that saying it enough times will alter r… moreeality and make it happen. There were so many ways this plot could have been handled better. The problem isn't Jack betraying a pro-Jack Rhys, it's that the 'consequences' of trusting Jack are... exactly the same as not trusting him. Fiona and Sasha still like you. Vaughn still likes you. You suddenly only have hateful dialog options when talking to Jack.
Where is the Rhys who sold Vaughn out to Vasquez, repeatedly lied to Fiona and Sasha and agreed with Jack on everything, including how killing was actually fun? The Rule Hyperion ending made it look like Rhys was enjoying the idea of becoming a dictator and ruling the Universe. But nope, now he's suddenly a nice guy and no one is going to hold anything he did against him.
If anything, a pro-Jack Rhys should have tried to deactivate Jack in ep.5 in … [view original content]
That's right. I would have liked the option to be able to stay loyal to Jack no matter what the most, with it possibly resulting in the death of Rhys or people he cared about, if you played him that way, but if TT had to go with the weird 'Jack wanting to kill Rhys for reasons' scenario it could have been so much more dramatic if they let us play Rhys as frightened, hurt and betrayed, asking Jack what he did to deserve it while trying to escape, instead of angrily promising to kill him. And the lack of any negative consequences of choosing Jack on your relationships with the rest of the group? Just... what... why?
I don't want to keep going on and on about it in, like, five different threads (well, I do, seeking catharsis, you know, but people probably won't appreciate it :P), but man, I am hurting here. I kinda feel like Telltale betrayed me.
Same here dude, there's nothing like being let down by the story in the final stretch. I wanted to keep supporting Jack even if it meant it … morewould kill Rhys. That the betrayal could either be as you suggested, Rhys wanting to be top dog, or for a complete loyalty playthrough, instead of helping a dying Rhys after the Helios crash Jack could use the opportunity to try and take over his body then. Just something that jived more with the plotline I had committed myself to, instead of forcing me to play Rhys good all of a sudden and having him be subsequently good in all non player controlled dialogue.
I feel you buddy. I'll eventually hit apathy mode, but for now I gotta direct my disappointment somewhere, even if it has to be in the (largely useless, cause it's not gonna change anything) form of ranting.
That's right. I would have liked the option to be able to stay loyal to Jack no matter what the most, with it possibly resulting in the deat… moreh of Rhys or people he cared about, if you played him that way, but if TT had to go with the weird 'Jack wanting to kill Rhys for reasons' scenario it could have been so much more dramatic if they let us play Rhys as frightened, hurt and betrayed, asking Jack what he did to deserve it while trying to escape, instead of angrily promising to kill him. And the lack of any negative consequences of choosing Jack on your relationships with the rest of the group? Just... what... why?
I don't want to keep going on and on about it in, like, five different threads (well, I do, seeking catharsis, you know, but people probably won't appreciate it :P), but man, I am hurting here. I kinda feel like Telltale betrayed me.
I thought this was a fantastic final and pretty much had everything I wanted. Although a few things could've been more expanded on/fleshed o… moreut.
The Jack sub-plot was wrapped up rather quickly, as was Vallory. I wanted more of a fight to get rid of those two :')
And I don't think any of us could have handled the wait any longer if there was one more episode
I could I mean I reaallllyy could wait another two or three months for the chapter. Think how many things could get fleshed out better! (Vallory, Yvette ect.)
Yeah, but again, think of the poor tired voice actors/programmers/graphic designers/writers.
And I don't think any of us could have handled the wait any longer if there was one more episode.
I don't think you guys are getting it. You're trying to analyze Jack's actions logically, and he's not logical. Whether or not it's stupid to throw away a good ally is irrelevant. Jack does it every day. You wanted some payoff from Jack for trusting him, but you were never going to get it. That empty lack of recognition is what everyone who tries to do right by him feels all the time. You're just another replaceable cog.
Jack doesn't care if you trust him, he doesn't care if you're useful, and he doesn't care if tossing you aside serves no purpose. He is who he is, and that's just all there is to it.
I feel you buddy. I'll eventually hit apathy mode, but for now I gotta direct my disappointment somewhere, even if it has to be in the (largely useless, cause it's not gonna change anything) form of ranting.
Yeah, but again, think of the poor tired voice actors/programmers/graphic designers/writers.
And I don't think any of us could have handled the wait any longer if there was one more episode.
Pretty disappointed in the explanation for Rhys and Fiona hating each other at the start of Zer0 Sum, but I guess that was just a side effect of a long development period.
Um, we're not analyzing Jack's actions, we're kinda mostly talking about Rhys? I can work around Jack's attitude, it's all the stuff we've discussed regarding Rhys that's the major issue. Like tamallama said six posts above?
I don't think you guys are getting it. You're trying to analyze Jack's actions logically, and he's not logical. Whether or not it's stupid… more to throw away a good ally is irrelevant. Jack does it every day. You wanted some payoff from Jack for trusting him, but you were never going to get it. That empty lack of recognition is what everyone who tries to do right by him feels all the time. You're just another replaceable cog.
Jack doesn't care if you trust him, he doesn't care if you're useful, and he doesn't care if tossing you aside serves no purpose. He is who he is, and that's just all there is to it.
And I don't think any of us could have handled the wait any longer if there was one more episode
I could I mean I reaallllyy could w… moreait another two or three months for the chapter. Think how many things could get fleshed out better! (Vallory, Yvette ect.)
They are talking about how they are forced to hate Jack in episode 5... Like how in The Walking Dead season two.. You are pretty much forced to like Kenny.
There is no dialogue like the other episodes where you can side with Jack, instead you completely hate Jack now. Like in TWD when Kenny is doing all the stupid shit he does in Carvers camp and to Arvo.. But you can't call him out on it because the dialogue won't allow you to.
If you don't play the way Telltale wants you to play, youre gonna have a bad time...
Um, we're not analyzing Jack's actions, we're kinda mostly talking about Rhys? I can work around Jack's attitude, it's all the stuff we've discussed regarding Rhys that's the major issue. Like tamallama said six posts above?
Ok guys, I'm going to try and explain where my crushing disappointment with episode 5 stems from, because I feel we're maybe not all on the same page here, and because I need to get this off my chest, and also because I'm kinda drunk
Now, this is what I felt episodes 1-4 (with special emphasis on 4) were setting me up for:
I played my Rhys very deliberately as a corporate douchebag, who used his friends (I deserve this promotion. But, sure, you helped...some. Though there's only place for one on top). My Rhys consistently described Pandora as a bandit lair and a trash-heap. Throughout the first 4 episodes he gleefully sided with Handsome Jack, despite having met and spent time with people like Fiona and Sasha, who obviously were just trying to survive and not embracing the bandit lifestyle. Rhys betrayed his 'friend' (took Vasquez's deal), lied to him (refused to reveal the HJ AI), and lied to Fiona and Sasha (same). He constantly reasserted his desire to return to and rule Hyperion. He agreed with HJ that shooting bandits was fun. He picked 'revenge' when asked how he'd rule Hyperion. When Jack gave him the offer of ruling Helios and the entire universe beside him, he took it without hesitation. He chose to bomb a bandit camp.
Now, where I felt that would be leading me? To Jack joyfully praising you for making the right choice, and then taking control (since I let him rule my cybernetics in ep. 2, right?) and making decisions for you, Figurehead President Rhys... Getting Vaughn killed (if you cared for him, a big punch), getting Sasha killed (same). Getting Fiona to hate you. And in the end, if you stuck with him despite all that, getting Rhys killed, by Fiona's hand, or the like, in the present day timeline. (though I would have also liked an optional atoner route where Rhys doesn't die but Fiona and/or Sasha hate him).
That's what I was hyped for. Not 'Jack is actually nice and your best friend', just a conclusion that made me really feel the consequences of my past choices.
Drunken rant over, do let me know if I made any terrible typos
I don't think you guys are getting it. You're trying to analyze Jack's actions logically, and he's not logical. Whether or not it's stupid… more to throw away a good ally is irrelevant. Jack does it every day. You wanted some payoff from Jack for trusting him, but you were never going to get it. That empty lack of recognition is what everyone who tries to do right by him feels all the time. You're just another replaceable cog.
Jack doesn't care if you trust him, he doesn't care if you're useful, and he doesn't care if tossing you aside serves no purpose. He is who he is, and that's just all there is to it.
Exactly this! The "payoff" I wanted was a bad end for Rhys (because it would be interesting and dramatic) I wanted him to either commit to being a bad guy along side Jack (death by Fiona ending), or if he couldn't cross that moral line and live with his choice, ripping his own cybernetics out like he did in the actual game, but Fiona and Sasha still hating his guts.
Honestly I was SO SURE that siding with jack would result in moonshotting Hollow Point after Prosperity Junction, and that would leave an opening to either start resisting Jack there, or go along with it for evil Rhys.
(also I'm a student studying storyboarding and may or may not be writing and drafting out the scenes I was expecting to see... )
Ok guys, I'm going to try and explain where my crushing disappointment with episode 5 stems from, because I feel we're maybe not all on the … moresame page here, and because I need to get this off my chest, and also because I'm kinda drunk
Now, this is what I felt episodes 1-4 (with special emphasis on 4) were setting me up for:
I played my Rhys very deliberately as a corporate douchebag, who used his friends (I deserve this promotion. But, sure, you helped...some. Though there's only place for one on top). My Rhys consistently described Pandora as a bandit lair and a trash-heap. Throughout the first 4 episodes he gleefully sided with Handsome Jack, despite having met and spent time with people like Fiona and Sasha, who obviously were just trying to survive and not embracing the bandit lifestyle. Rhys betrayed his 'friend' (took Vasquez's deal), lied to him (refused to reveal the HJ AI), and lied to Fiona and Sasha (same). He constantly reas… [view original content]
Exactly this! The "payoff" I wanted was a bad end for Rhys (because it would be interesting and dramatic) I wanted him to either commit to b… moreeing a bad guy along side Jack (death by Fiona ending), or if he couldn't cross that moral line and live with his choice, ripping his own cybernetics out like he did in the actual game, but Fiona and Sasha still hating his guts.
Honestly I was SO SURE that siding with jack would result in moonshotting Hollow Point after Prosperity Junction, and that would leave an opening to either start resisting Jack there, or go along with it for evil Rhys.
(also I'm a student studying storyboarding and may or may not be writing and drafting out the scenes I was expecting to see... )
Personally, I wasn't fond of the random timeskip. I would've preferred if they all got together on the spot and had to save the world with only blind luck and determination. It doesn't make sense as to how Rhys survived after basically ripping his body apart without any sort of aid and August being totally cool with Sasha and Fiona all of a sudden for them to patch him up. Nobody even bothered to look for Vaughn, either.
Just felt rushed overall. Same with the stranger's identity, even though I was pleasantly surprised with it.
The ending was poetic, but I would've liked a little more closure. Though, I don't mind having TellTale leaving it up to our imaginations - I just would've liked it more if Sasha, Vaughn, LB, Gortys and whoever you picked for your team went with you, would've felt more legit to me considering how TftB was going for a "bonds" sort of theme.
I agree. I don't like the whole year in between thing. Would be cool if telltale released a short episode or story or something that tells us what they did that year. Would make for a great tide over in between seasons. Say...in a few months...?
Personally, I wasn't fond of the random timeskip. I would've preferred if they all got together on the spot and had to save the world with o… morenly blind luck and determination. It doesn't make sense as to how Rhys survived after basically ripping his body apart without any sort of aid and August being totally cool with Sasha and Fiona all of a sudden for them to patch him up. Nobody even bothered to look for Vaughn, either.
Just felt rushed overall. Same with the stranger's identity, even though I was pleasantly surprised with it.
The ending was poetic, but I would've liked a little more closure. Though, I don't mind having TellTale leaving it up to our imaginations - I just would've liked it more if Sasha, Vaughn, LB, Gortys and whoever you picked for your team went with you, would've felt more legit to me considering how TftB was going for a "bonds" sort of theme.
That's about it from me.
Well, it'd be essentially pointless since it was written off as "ordinary" and from the sounds of it, our two heroes already told us about the highlights. I would've liked to have seen Rhys fall into isolation and guilt from what happened with Helios while Sasha and Fiona wander with a certain sense of emptiness from their alleged betrayal to Gortyrs.
I just wiiiiish it didn't happen in the first place.
I agree. I don't like the whole year in between thing. Would be cool if telltale released a short episode or story or something that tells us what they did that year. Would make for a great tide over in between seasons. Say...in a few months...?
Comments
I could have done without whole whole Sasha almost dying at the end thing. And Rhy's super cringey reaction to it.
But that's my only complaint.
Oh, and the KNARLY blurry ground texture at the end in front of the Vault gate.
Wtf was up with that PS1 shit?
Rule Hyperion was sadly a waste. I don't know what I was expecting but I really wish it led to some extra scene or line during Jack's final speech. But instead you're more punished for it than anything else which was really the only bummer for me.
I felt the whole episode really didn't make sense for a pro-Jack player. I think even with the story they wanted to write, it could have been done, and in a way that made sense to whichever side you took. Example: antiJack plays largely the same, but proJack has it being Fiona being the one who destroys Helios in the rush to escape. Rhy's cybernetics will still be removed, thus removing Jack from the story, but in a proJack playthrough it could be forced on him, or only after whatever Rhys' moral line is crossed can he do it himself. Even the reasoning behind Fiona and Rhys being angry at eachother in the present day story could have worked either way, with it being over a true betrayal (Rhy picking Jack, Fiona crashing the station and taking the beacon) or the misunderstanding of one ditching the other.
tl;dr My biggest complaint is that the branch for players who had been on a proJack route was cut off right at the start, making Rhys act out of character for his subsequent scenes, and making the rest of the episode feel jarring, because it was no longer the story I had been playing, it was the other side of it.
The point was...Jack was always a villain. No matter what you do, you can never trust him. He's not a hero, he's not brave and he's definitely not a good person.
No kidding? I never expected him to be. But I expected a narrative that made sense with the path of decisions I'd made, and didn't get that. Whether that ended with Jack crossing moral bounderies Rhys couldn't bring himself to, full on Evil Rhys, or a betrayal that made sense for the character, I was ready to face those consequences because they would be deserved. Even if it meant the end of Rhys too (something I believed might happen in a proJack run) What we got was a narrative that only made sense for anti-jack players, and that was a real letdown.
Well Jack did cross the line. Even if you wanted to play Rhys as a complete scumbag who worships Jack, he still has self preservation instincts. He doesn't love Jack enough to give up his own life. And once Jack reveals his plans for Rhys, I think it's a little thick headed of the player to complain about the choices you're given as Rhys. Maybe they should've added dialogue that stalls the situation, like trying to convince Jack that he should use someone else and then you slowly realize that Jack can't be reasoned with, hence why you go through with removing the cybernetics while he's pleading to you, cause you know he's two-faced. That is something that could've been done better. But this idea of trying to be pro-Jack because we can and the story should work for us is kind of silly when you think that this arc has to now be worked into the overall Borderlands canon (which already has enough plot holes).
I would have liked it if it literally just ended with the chest opening.
I guess it's better to say that Jacks plans for a proJack Rhys make no sense in the first place. Why make him prez? Why kill your best ally? Jack has been shown to be ruthless and psychotic, but not stupid. A loyal and alive Rhys would have made more sense then a dead one. His plan would have worked for an antiJack Rhys, but it didn't add up for one who had been a willing or even eager ally.
Like I said in my original comment, the events could have still played out in a pro playthrough (crashing Helios, removing cybernetics and thus Jack, etc etc etc) but in a way that worked better with the rest of a proJack story rather than completely opposite to that.
Basically, since I played the game proJack, I expected it to better reflect that decision because it was such an important plot piece, but in the end neither Jack or Rhys treated my previous gameplay (and thus the story) like that's how it had been, so all actions and dialogue seemed offbeat.
I think maybe the AI had some kind of flaw, bug, or something set too high (ex: too narcissistic(lol) and too much blood lust). Watching lets play of all the episodes again, I get the feeling something was wrong with the Handsome Jack AI. I think if that's what was going on, we should've been told, though. It seemed like Yvette knew a little more about the AI then we did, so that was an opening. I dunno, I'm kinda grasping for straws.
I really want an explanation for that whole scene, other than 'Jack's a jerk.' That isn't good enough for me either. He was a smart, manipulative tactician. He was desperate when Angel died, so that was why he threw his cards down. He kinda knew what he was doing, because of the Vault of Knowledge. We did see Lilith captured, after all. It was too forced without enough detail or explanation as to why.
The Sentinel gets a tad bit more difficult with the higher dificulty, trust me on that. On ultimate vault hunter, even with an awesome setup and shock sticky quasar, without my digi-jacks it gets really difficult. Anyways, I just thought that the Sentinal's design was amazing! That's why I expected more. It felt blah next to the Sentinal and the Warrior to me. It was awesome seeing something that big, but that was it. I know telltale could've done more justice to the design. I mean, look at the inside of that thing!
@J-Master @Deltino I will give you guys that one. If it was in FPS fasion, it would've probably been a pain to fight, especially if they went original borderlands and made us shoot only the critical. I still think it was cheesy, especially with the Power Rangers reference. Don't get me wrong, I loved that show when I was younger! I dunno, I figured you'd get to fight for gortys, but I though it would be more like the first episode when you first got loaderbot. More I decide how to beat up the Traveler, less button combo, ya know?
Sorry, I didn't feel like doing multiple replies lol.
Because jack didn't want allies, he doesn't want equals, he doesn't want to share power, and he doesn't want any liabilities. What jack did is perfectly in character. You just got fooled into thinking that because jack was stroking your ego that you were special. You thought jack would treat you differently than everyone else.
You were wrong.
My main qualm was Felix's story to Fiona if you chose to try to have him join your mission. He says that the dresser was never supposed to fall out and if it hadn't, Fi and Sasha would have found the money with a note explaining everything and that the money that was blown up was fake because while Fi was unconscious, he bypassed the locks on the case and swapped it and left the real money in the dresser. This was a load of BS in my opinion for a few reasons. If he did bypass the security on the case and swap the money why didn't he notice the bomb? If he really is as great as the game made him out to be, he would have found it and tossed the case no matter what Fi said. Also, I find it hard to believe that he, their father, would not have hinted at this 'part of a bigger heist' to Fi before the race. I'm sure no matter what the circumstances were, he would have left at least a riddle or code. And how dod the money NOT get taken by bandits or Valerie? That dresser was sitting there for along time and you mean to tell me that no one, especially Valerie, thought to search it? Get outta here. Amd how dos Fiona contact him in the first place? I'm sure he didn't leave his number for her. I was very disappointed with this scene because it just seemed like it was sloppily put together because no one thought that many people would choose to save Felix(I didn't until I saw that he would join the story again) besides that, the story pandering to Anti Jack players and (for obvious reasons but the choice should be available for this type of game) and thefact that the game glossed over how Fionma and Sasha got back to the caravan after placing the charge, this game is incredible. The story is captivating, the world and characters are amazingly unique and I love how get to choose who Rhys' love interest. I loved the ending and can't wait until Season 2!!
I think you're misunderstanding my problem with the story. I always expected betrayal in some form, some kind of dramatic sequence with a hurt and betrayed Rhys was what I was waiting for. Instead I was railroaded into a narrative that only really fit with going against Jack from the start, or at least playing a very reluctant to trust Jack Rhys. All dialogue made no sense with a trust route, Jacks plan didn't make much sense with a trust route (why use the exoskeleton when a Rhys who trusted Jack in ep 2 could already be fully controlled by him? Why so directly make Rhys an enemy when he'd been playing along so nicely? etc)
What I wanted, what I thought the narrative was going to go for if you trusted Jack, was Dark Rhys, and whether or not you could have him embrace that or regret that. I was ready and excited for some heart wrenching punishment for my choice to make a deal with the devil. But in the end Rhys is good, and treated as good, and acts like a woobie good guy in the end even if you've played him as a selfish dickbag. So the last episode only makes sense if you've been playing him one way, and since the game is supposed to be about choosing paths, that was a real let down.
This. This is exactly what I keep repeating like a broken record in some demented subconscious hope that saying it enough times will alter reality and make it happen. There were so many ways this plot could have been handled better. The problem isn't Jack betraying a pro-Jack Rhys, it's that the 'consequences' of trusting Jack are... exactly the same as not trusting him. Fiona and Sasha still like you. Vaughn still likes you. You suddenly only have hateful dialog options when talking to Jack.
Where is the Rhys who sold Vaughn out to Vasquez, repeatedly lied to Fiona and Sasha and agreed with Jack on everything, including how killing was actually fun? The Rule Hyperion ending made it look like Rhys was enjoying the idea of becoming a dictator and ruling the Universe. But nope, now he's suddenly a nice guy and no one is going to hold anything he did against him.
If anything, a pro-Jack Rhys should have tried to deactivate Jack in ep.5 in order to take power for himself, not continue with the beacon plan.
Damn, it was such a good game and it disappointed me so badly at the very end that it broke my heart.
Same here dude, there's nothing like being let down by the story in the final stretch. I wanted to keep supporting Jack even if it meant it would kill Rhys. That the betrayal could either be as you suggested, Rhys wanting to be top dog, or for a complete loyalty playthrough, instead of helping a dying Rhys after the Helios crash Jack could use the opportunity to try and take over his body then. Just something that jived more with the plotline I had committed myself to, instead of forcing me to play Rhys good all of a sudden and having him be subsequently good in all non player controlled dialogue.
That's right. I would have liked the option to be able to stay loyal to Jack no matter what the most, with it possibly resulting in the death of Rhys or people he cared about, if you played him that way, but if TT had to go with the weird 'Jack wanting to kill Rhys for reasons' scenario it could have been so much more dramatic if they let us play Rhys as frightened, hurt and betrayed, asking Jack what he did to deserve it while trying to escape, instead of angrily promising to kill him. And the lack of any negative consequences of choosing Jack on your relationships with the rest of the group? Just... what... why?
I don't want to keep going on and on about it in, like, five different threads (well, I do, seeking catharsis, you know, but people probably won't appreciate it :P), but man, I am hurting here. I kinda feel like Telltale betrayed me.
I feel you buddy. I'll eventually hit apathy mode, but for now I gotta direct my disappointment somewhere, even if it has to be in the (largely useless, cause it's not gonna change anything) form of ranting.
Going from Ep 1 to 5 and you call it quickly?
Well my biggest complaint about this series is that's it's 5 not 6 chapter long, could've used one more ep....
Yeah, but again, think of the poor tired voice actors/programmers/graphic designers/writers.
And I don't think any of us could have handled the wait any longer if there was one more episode.
I could I mean I reaallllyy could wait another two or three months for the chapter. Think how many things could get fleshed out better! (Vallory, Yvette ect.)
I don't think you guys are getting it. You're trying to analyze Jack's actions logically, and he's not logical. Whether or not it's stupid to throw away a good ally is irrelevant. Jack does it every day. You wanted some payoff from Jack for trusting him, but you were never going to get it. That empty lack of recognition is what everyone who tries to do right by him feels all the time. You're just another replaceable cog.
Jack doesn't care if you trust him, he doesn't care if you're useful, and he doesn't care if tossing you aside serves no purpose. He is who he is, and that's just all there is to it.
Speak for yourself about the wait! Now that TFTBL is over and done with, I have no idea what to do with myself or what forums to stalk.
Guys... She got shot with a rocket launcher... Unless she is secretly Gryff Whitehill.. She shoulda exploded into smithereens
Especially if you're shipping Fiona and Rhys
I'm just happy less black characters had to die
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Um, we're not analyzing Jack's actions, we're kinda mostly talking about Rhys? I can work around Jack's attitude, it's all the stuff we've discussed regarding Rhys that's the major issue. Like tamallama said six posts above?
FARM FOR ITEMS/PLAY TF2/DRAW FANART/WRITE FANFICS
Actually...yeah, you're right.
(And for you sailors, Rhys going slow dancing with Sasha.)
They are talking about how they are forced to hate Jack in episode 5... Like how in The Walking Dead season two.. You are pretty much forced to like Kenny.
There is no dialogue like the other episodes where you can side with Jack, instead you completely hate Jack now. Like in TWD when Kenny is doing all the stupid shit he does in Carvers camp and to Arvo.. But you can't call him out on it because the dialogue won't allow you to.
If you don't play the way Telltale wants you to play, youre gonna have a bad time...
Obviously not the set up, but the resolution yes. After four episodes I wanted a little bit more Jack in the final.
Ok guys, I'm going to try and explain where my crushing disappointment with episode 5 stems from, because I feel we're maybe not all on the same page here, and because I need to get this off my chest, and also because I'm kinda drunk
Now, this is what I felt episodes 1-4 (with special emphasis on 4) were setting me up for:
I played my Rhys very deliberately as a corporate douchebag, who used his friends (I deserve this promotion. But, sure, you helped...some. Though there's only place for one on top). My Rhys consistently described Pandora as a bandit lair and a trash-heap. Throughout the first 4 episodes he gleefully sided with Handsome Jack, despite having met and spent time with people like Fiona and Sasha, who obviously were just trying to survive and not embracing the bandit lifestyle. Rhys betrayed his 'friend' (took Vasquez's deal), lied to him (refused to reveal the HJ AI), and lied to Fiona and Sasha (same). He constantly reasserted his desire to return to and rule Hyperion. He agreed with HJ that shooting bandits was fun. He picked 'revenge' when asked how he'd rule Hyperion. When Jack gave him the offer of ruling Helios and the entire universe beside him, he took it without hesitation. He chose to bomb a bandit camp.
Now, where I felt that would be leading me? To Jack joyfully praising you for making the right choice, and then taking control (since I let him rule my cybernetics in ep. 2, right?) and making decisions for you, Figurehead President Rhys... Getting Vaughn killed (if you cared for him, a big punch), getting Sasha killed (same). Getting Fiona to hate you. And in the end, if you stuck with him despite all that, getting Rhys killed, by Fiona's hand, or the like, in the present day timeline. (though I would have also liked an optional atoner route where Rhys doesn't die but Fiona and/or Sasha hate him).
That's what I was hyped for. Not 'Jack is actually nice and your best friend', just a conclusion that made me really feel the consequences of my past choices.
Drunken rant over, do let me know if I made any terrible typos
Exactly this! The "payoff" I wanted was a bad end for Rhys (because it would be interesting and dramatic) I wanted him to either commit to being a bad guy along side Jack (death by Fiona ending), or if he couldn't cross that moral line and live with his choice, ripping his own cybernetics out like he did in the actual game, but Fiona and Sasha still hating his guts.
Honestly I was SO SURE that siding with jack would result in moonshotting Hollow Point after Prosperity Junction, and that would leave an opening to either start resisting Jack there, or go along with it for evil Rhys.
(also I'm a student studying storyboarding and may or may not be writing and drafting out the scenes I was expecting to see... )
If you're willing to share, I'd love to read those.
Sure thing, I'll PM you the link or something once they're out of my sketchbook and online.
Thanks, I appreciate it
Personally, I wasn't fond of the random timeskip. I would've preferred if they all got together on the spot and had to save the world with only blind luck and determination. It doesn't make sense as to how Rhys survived after basically ripping his body apart without any sort of aid and August being totally cool with Sasha and Fiona all of a sudden for them to patch him up. Nobody even bothered to look for Vaughn, either.
Just felt rushed overall. Same with the stranger's identity, even though I was pleasantly surprised with it.
The ending was poetic, but I would've liked a little more closure. Though, I don't mind having TellTale leaving it up to our imaginations - I just would've liked it more if Sasha, Vaughn, LB, Gortys and whoever you picked for your team went with you, would've felt more legit to me considering how TftB was going for a "bonds" sort of theme.
That's about it from me.
I agree. I don't like the whole year in between thing. Would be cool if telltale released a short episode or story or something that tells us what they did that year. Would make for a great tide over in between seasons. Say...in a few months...?
Well, it'd be essentially pointless since it was written off as "ordinary" and from the sounds of it, our two heroes already told us about the highlights. I would've liked to have seen Rhys fall into isolation and guilt from what happened with Helios while Sasha and Fiona wander with a certain sense of emptiness from their alleged betrayal to Gortyrs.
I just wiiiiish it didn't happen in the first place.