I think Crane is a reasonable exception though. By this time everyone had pretty much forgotten about him... And let's be fair, Bigby killed him for his sexual obsession with Snow. Cindy wouldn't say anything seeing as she has assassinated for Bigby before and played dumb to all of it.
Now I think about, I wanna see more of Bigby and Cindy's missions!
But the thing is, he did kill Crane (with Cindy's help) in Paris, when Crane betrayed Fabletown (and that is set after TWAU). And that wasn… more't even something really personal, he just felt it was necessary (of course, if Snow was there, she probably would have told him to bring Crane back for trial).
Of course, while Snow was present when Bigby was fighting Dee and Dum, she didn't restrain Bigby in any way (probably due to shock), and player's Bigby has a choice to make.
And while it was somewhat personal for Bigby - he was being kicked in, shot at by these two for almost every Episode since meeting them, I think part of my canon Bigby just wanted to end the threat (for good, without the risk of them causing further trouble again, by letting them live, which is in line with what he does with Crane later in Paris).
He probably would have killed the Crooked Man again if he didn't hear Snow's plead to bring him to trial (despite what every… [view original content]
Bigby was free to sentence Crane as he pleased (killing him), because he was outside of Fabletown jurisdiction (i.e. anywhere outside Fabletown I guess) - I don't think it had to do with other Fables forgetting about him.
And the Fabletown laws didn't really get much tightened (or strict, however you wish to call it) until Snow took full reign/position of the Deputy Mayor's office (even though Bigby was Sheriff) - the night when Crane was taken.
Now, I'm not saying my canon-Bigby would kill every criminal or bad guy there is, but when it is justified to take retribution, he would take it (for example, at the end, player is given a choice to turn Crooked Man into a bird and keep him caged, or throw him down the witching well, and I chose throwing him down the well, after he attacked me when I was gonna spare him) - especially if the crook is just a irredeemable scum.
To me, Dum and Dee were both pretty much irredeemable, attacking Bigby and every turn, and shooting at him trying to kill him. So I had my canon-Bigby killed him (and no, I didn't care if my Bigby got chastised for it, because he gets told off by Snow regardless, for transforming into his were-wolf form).
I also thought it would make a lot more sense to have my Bigby be at odds with Snow at least once during my canon gameplay, since for all other decisions, I pretty much agreed with Snow (and I didn't want to just turn my Bigby into a "Yes-man" all the time), and in the comics, it is quite frequently mentioned that Bigby and Snow argued a lot during their time working together (hence linking it to the comics).
Plus, I thought it had a much stronger impact (well, to me it was) with Snow pleading Bigby not to kill the Crooked Man after seeing him kill Dum (And be concerned that Bigby may do the same to the Crooked Man), rather than having her plead to Bigby after Dum was spared (which to me, reduces the emotional impact greatly).
To me it was double the delight to see Snow plead to Bigby after the whole ordeal, and that delight turned to triple with Snow's surprised expression when my Bigby brought in the Crooked Man alive (proving to Snow that while my Bigby puts in effort to rectify any past actions that Snow disapproves).
You may disagree (And that's perfectly fine, because everyone has their own interpretation of Bigby), but that's how I saw it.
We do get to see some of Cindy and Bigby's missions in the comics (only few though), but yeah - it would be nice to see it more of their missions in some format - whether it be spin-off comics or another Telltale game: But both seem be pretty much dead at this point so.......
I think Crane is a reasonable exception though. By this time everyone had pretty much forgotten about him... And let's be fair, Bigby killed… more him for his sexual obsession with Snow. Cindy wouldn't say anything seeing as she has assassinated for Bigby before and played dumb to all of it.
Now I think about, I wanna see more of Bigby and Cindy's missions!
We do get to see some of Cindy and Bigby's missions in the comics (only few though)
Dude, you do remember that I've read the entire series just like you, right? :P
I see your points and yes I can see where you're coming from. I guess in my mind, Bigby needs to operate within the boundaries of Fabletown law in order to keep Snow and the others off his back. Technically he breaks 2 laws by killing Dum (murder obviously, but also revealing his non-human form in 'public')
The Tweedles can get theirs later, under more 'private' circumstances
Bigby was free to sentence Crane as he pleased (killing him), because he was outside of Fabletown jurisdiction (i.e. anywhere outside Fablet… moreown I guess) - I don't think it had to do with other Fables forgetting about him.
And the Fabletown laws didn't really get much tightened (or strict, however you wish to call it) until Snow took full reign/position of the Deputy Mayor's office (even though Bigby was Sheriff) - the night when Crane was taken.
Now, I'm not saying my canon-Bigby would kill every criminal or bad guy there is, but when it is justified to take retribution, he would take it (for example, at the end, player is given a choice to turn Crooked Man into a bird and keep him caged, or throw him down the witching well, and I chose throwing him down the well, after he attacked me when I was gonna spare him) - especially if the crook is just a irredeemable scum.
To me, Dum and Dee were both pretty much irredeemable, attacking Big… [view original content]
Yeah, I know, I know. It's one of those habits of mine where I remind people of things sometimes, even though I am aware that they know already (I guess old habits die hard?).
Another situation which seems similar this in the comics is when Charming killed Bluebeard. In that case (and again, yes I'm aware you've read the whole series):
Charming killed Bluebeard
Bluebeard had it coming because he tried to kill Snow (Deputy Mayor) and the Bigby (Sheriff) [even Charming himself says that is the main reason for killing Bluebeard]
Charming was never given any punishment/reprimand or criticized for his actions (in fact, he took all of Blubeard's riches and got filthy rich instead)
Seems pretty similar, except for the fact that Bigby got a bit of chastisement from Snow, and there's one sentence of the Crooked Man in his trial (which doesn't really amount to much, if the player's Bigby was nice to everyone else), and the fact Bigby doesn't get rich (oh yeah, and Charming isn't the Sheriff).
We do get to see some of Cindy and Bigby's missions in the comics (only few though)
Dude, you do remember that I've read the entire … moreseries just like you, right? :P
I see your points and yes I can see where you're coming from. I guess in my mind, Bigby needs to operate within the boundaries of Fabletown law in order to keep Snow and the others off his back. Technically he breaks 2 laws by killing Dum (murder obviously, but also revealing his non-human form in 'public')
The Tweedles can get theirs later, under more 'private' circumstances
Yeah but Bluebeard was an outcast in himself to all of Fabletown. He was always trying to butt in on Government issues because he was the main source of funding, and to be fair, attempted assassination on the Sheriff and the Deputy Mayor probably would lead to an execution :P
I don't remember much from the earlier Volumes but wasn't this the time when Charming ran against Cole for election of Mayor to Fabletown?
I'm not sure what being an outcast has to do with justification of him being executed though (To be honest, I was scratching my head a bit when I read that part).
The point I'm trying to make is, they both tried to kill Bigby or did action/s with intent to cause him grave harm(Dee and Dum more than once actually throughout the game. Bluebeard, while was pretty much angry/mad with Bigby a lot of times, I don't think he actually put that hatred into any action until the comics, unlike Dee and Dum, who punched & shot at Bigby in every turn).
Only difference I see between their situations is that in Bluebeard's case, the executioner was Charming, and in Dum's case, Bigby has an option to dish out his personal justice (although even if it was not personal, the Tweedles are very, very likely to be executed for attempted assassination of the Sheriff, and obstruction of justice being handed to corrupt former Mayor Crane, plus impeding the Sheriff's investigation at every turn - so I see it as justified execution, despite Snow's protests).
All Fables (not just Bigby and Snow) were pretty much annoyed with or hated Bluebeard for butting in Government policies, but I don't think any wanted him dead because of that (even Bigby and Snow, I think they just considered Bluebeard as an annoyance [or large hinderance at best], which may have them at odds all the time, but not enough to actually want them to kill him just for his interference in Fabletown politics).
This incident was before Charming ran against Cole for Mayor. And this was greatly due to Charming becoming filthy rich after having killed Bluebeard and taking all of his riches (and came out of it unscathed, with no punishment/reprimand whatsoever).
Yeah but Bluebeard was an outcast in himself to all of Fabletown. He was always trying to butt in on Government issues because he was the ma… morein source of funding, and to be fair, attempted assassination on the Sheriff and the Deputy Mayor probably would lead to an execution :P
I don't remember much from the earlier Volumes but wasn't this the time when Charming ran against Cole for election of Mayor to Fabletown?
I'm not sure what being an outcast has to do with justification of him being executed though (To be honest, I was scratching my head a bit w… morehen I read that part).
The point I'm trying to make is, they both tried to kill Bigby or did action/s with intent to cause him grave harm(Dee and Dum more than once actually throughout the game. Bluebeard, while was pretty much angry/mad with Bigby a lot of times, I don't think he actually put that hatred into any action until the comics, unlike Dee and Dum, who punched & shot at Bigby in every turn).
Only difference I see between their situations is that in Bluebeard's case, the executioner was Charming, and in Dum's case, Bigby has an option to dish out his personal justice (although even if it was not personal, the Tweedles are very, very likely to be executed for attempted assassination of the Sheriff, and obstruction of justice being handed to corrupt former Mayor Crane, plus impeding the … [view original content]
No thats a bullshit reason im srry... You need to fight fire with fire imo. We are better than him so we"ll end that fatso's pathetic life. And if thats your reason, he is better than you imo because you are too weak/pussy to end his life.
No thats a bullshit reason im srry... You need to fight fire with fire imo. We are better than him so we"ll end that fatso's pathetic life. And if thats your reason, he is better than you imo because you are too weak/pussy to end his life.
Many have said that and look what comes out of it (looking at you REAL LIFE)
But in this instance, I can understand why killing him is a good idea. But is it really the ABSOLUTE BEST THING TO DO? No.
I actually agree with @Flog61 here, we should maintain a high ground. Dum getting killed by Bigby sends the wrong kind of message. It's like saying Batman is too weak/pussy to end the Joker's life; he doesn't kill the Joker because then that would be giving into a temptation, and like he says to Robin "I'm afraid that if I do kill him, he'll be replaced with someone worse"
... That being said I also feel that Batman doesn't kill the Joker simply so that he has a real challenge to deal with for the forseeable future.
No thats a bullshit reason im srry... You need to fight fire with fire imo. We are better than him so we"ll end that fatso's pathetic life. And if thats your reason, he is better than you imo because you are too weak/pussy to end his life.
Maybe thats best for you, I however do not give a fuck about pride or honor or any of that. I'll kill the fucker because of what he did to me and what he wanted to do. He was a waste of life anyway imo. And what does batman get by letting the Joker live? Yes only more trouble and innocent deaths because the villians nearly always escape. There should be more characters like The Punisher instead of the cliche stereotype "I don't kill anyone" heroes imo. And you gotta remember that these villians are no regular criminals. But why do you guys care about maintaining high ground anyway? What do you gain from it?
Fight fire with fire...
Many have said that and look what comes out of it (looking at you REAL LIFE)
But in this instance, I can under… morestand why killing him is a good idea. But is it really the ABSOLUTE BEST THING TO DO? No.
I actually agree with @Flog61 here, we should maintain a high ground. Dum getting killed by Bigby sends the wrong kind of message. It's like saying Batman is too weak/pussy to end the Joker's life; he doesn't kill the Joker because then that would be giving into a temptation, and like he says to Robin "I'm afraid that if I do kill him, he'll be replaced with someone worse"
... That being said I also feel that Batman doesn't kill the Joker simply so that he has a real challenge to deal with for the forseeable future.
Well it's a moral high ground at the end of the day.
Bigby killing Dum feels like the right thing to do because yes, he is a shithead and… more up to this point he has made the player angry. But at the same time, remember what Bigby used to be and how some Fables still view him.
In the end it probably wouldn't matter at all. Bigby can use the law of Fabletown to his advantage and get out of it with a pathetic warning. Or he can let the scum live and remind him of who he used to be, and how close Dum was to meeting the true Big Bad Wolf of legend.
Maybe thats best for you, I however do not give a fuck about pride or honor or any of that. I'll kill the fucker because of what he did to m… moree and what he wanted to do. He was a waste of life anyway imo. And what does batman get by letting the Joker live? Yes only more trouble and innocent deaths because the villians nearly always escape. There should be more characters like The Punisher instead of the cliche stereotype "I don't kill anyone" heroes imo. And you gotta remember that these villians are no regular criminals. But why do you guys care about maintaining high ground anyway? What do you gain from it?
You are absolutely wrong, ofcourse maybe it makes YOU feel better but certainly not me. It makes me feel better knowing I got rid of the person and that he can never come back ( to for example do bad things). Also you base it all on feelings while its a fact that if you kill them they can never harm anyone anymore. Then you might say: Well they can never do something good aswell if you kill them. What I say to that is that Prevention of the problem is better than solving it ( less effort and no chances of people getting killed etc). I also do not give a shit if they want me to kill them ( btw alot still don't want you to kill them certainly Dum didn't want that). Also making it feel like you truly beaten him? Well say that again when he just escapes and kills people again pffff..
That's exactly what I mean. I don't give a fuck if the enemy wants me to kill him/her or not ill kill him/her anyway because I want to kill him for what he did/was going to do or just because I don't like him/her. Also when he/she is dead they can't make any more mistakes or do bad things again.
I'm gonna be honest with everyone when I say this:
I don't really care if my enemies get satisfaction or not. I just want them to die a horrible death, satisfaction from them or not.
PLZ tell me you get it...
You are absolutely wrong, ofcourse maybe it makes YOU feel better but certainly not me. It makes me feel better knowing I got rid of the per… moreson and that he can never come back ( to for example do bad things). Also you base it all on feelings while its a fact that if you kill them they can never harm anyone anymore. Then you might say: Well they can never do something good aswell if you kill them. What I say to that is that Prevention of the problem is better than solving it ( less effort and no chances of people getting killed etc). I also do not give a shit if they want me to kill them ( btw alot still don't want you to kill them certainly Dum didn't want that). Also making it feel like you truly beaten him? Well say that again when he just escapes and kills people again pffff..
I'm gonna be honest with everyone when I say this:
I don't really care if my enemies get satisfaction or not. I just want them to die a horrible death, satisfaction from them or not.
PLZ tell me you get it...
In the end its which choice you want to choose, im not here to decide for you obviously. Well Snow will still like you if you kill him, I also chose not to burn down that tree and snow still liked me it seemed. Im not letting snow decide what I can/want to do.
Killing someone like that will never bring justice. It was not necessary to end his life, Bigby is not the same animal that he once was. I spared him because I am the fucking Sheriff, not another thug.
Killing someone like that will never bring justice. It was not necessary to end his life, Bigby is not the same animal that he once was. I spared him because I am the fucking Sheriff, not another thug.
I'll be honest. I hesitated at first but went through with it anyway. I just saw Bigby as Wolverine and saw Wolverine trying to kill his enemy. Besides, the Tweedles threatened the funeral and made the case difficult. I did kill him, but then I regretted my choice. I went back and spared him, and to be honest, there is really no difference. All that happens is that you don't exactly be accused of murder. I will tell you what I really cared about, Toad and TJ (Clementine) staying in Fabletown. Sadly there was no way to save them. I hope a Season Two will be made so we can see more of this game. I loved all the references.
He is working for Crooked Man, he is involved with a couple of murders, he tried to kill you in the first place. No reason to let him live. It wont bring you anything. Dee and Dum are just dumb stupid sons of bitches who just cause more troubles for Fabletown in order to make his precious boss happy. Just torn his fucking throat out. Consider as a gift after the crimes he has been involved.
Comments
I think Crane is a reasonable exception though. By this time everyone had pretty much forgotten about him... And let's be fair, Bigby killed him for his sexual obsession with Snow. Cindy wouldn't say anything seeing as she has assassinated for Bigby before and played dumb to all of it.
Now I think about, I wanna see more of Bigby and Cindy's missions!
Bigby was free to sentence Crane as he pleased (killing him), because he was outside of Fabletown jurisdiction (i.e. anywhere outside Fabletown I guess) - I don't think it had to do with other Fables forgetting about him.
And the Fabletown laws didn't really get much tightened (or strict, however you wish to call it) until Snow took full reign/position of the Deputy Mayor's office (even though Bigby was Sheriff) - the night when Crane was taken.
Now, I'm not saying my canon-Bigby would kill every criminal or bad guy there is, but when it is justified to take retribution, he would take it (for example, at the end, player is given a choice to turn Crooked Man into a bird and keep him caged, or throw him down the witching well, and I chose throwing him down the well, after he attacked me when I was gonna spare him) - especially if the crook is just a irredeemable scum.
To me, Dum and Dee were both pretty much irredeemable, attacking Bigby and every turn, and shooting at him trying to kill him. So I had my canon-Bigby killed him (and no, I didn't care if my Bigby got chastised for it, because he gets told off by Snow regardless, for transforming into his were-wolf form).
I also thought it would make a lot more sense to have my Bigby be at odds with Snow at least once during my canon gameplay, since for all other decisions, I pretty much agreed with Snow (and I didn't want to just turn my Bigby into a "Yes-man" all the time), and in the comics, it is quite frequently mentioned that Bigby and Snow argued a lot during their time working together (hence linking it to the comics).
Plus, I thought it had a much stronger impact (well, to me it was) with Snow pleading Bigby not to kill the Crooked Man after seeing him kill Dum (And be concerned that Bigby may do the same to the Crooked Man), rather than having her plead to Bigby after Dum was spared (which to me, reduces the emotional impact greatly).
To me it was double the delight to see Snow plead to Bigby after the whole ordeal, and that delight turned to triple with Snow's surprised expression when my Bigby brought in the Crooked Man alive (proving to Snow that while my Bigby puts in effort to rectify any past actions that Snow disapproves).
You may disagree (And that's perfectly fine, because everyone has their own interpretation of Bigby), but that's how I saw it.
Dude, you do remember that I've read the entire series just like you, right? :P
I see your points and yes I can see where you're coming from. I guess in my mind, Bigby needs to operate within the boundaries of Fabletown law in order to keep Snow and the others off his back. Technically he breaks 2 laws by killing Dum (murder obviously, but also revealing his non-human form in 'public')
The Tweedles can get theirs later, under more 'private' circumstances
Yeah, I know, I know. It's one of those habits of mine where I remind people of things sometimes, even though I am aware that they know already (I guess old habits die hard?).
Another situation which seems similar this in the comics is when Charming killed Bluebeard. In that case (and again, yes I'm aware you've read the whole series):
Seems pretty similar, except for the fact that Bigby got a bit of chastisement from Snow, and there's one sentence of the Crooked Man in his trial (which doesn't really amount to much, if the player's Bigby was nice to everyone else), and the fact Bigby doesn't get rich (oh yeah, and Charming isn't the Sheriff).
Yeah but Bluebeard was an outcast in himself to all of Fabletown. He was always trying to butt in on Government issues because he was the main source of funding, and to be fair, attempted assassination on the Sheriff and the Deputy Mayor probably would lead to an execution :P
I don't remember much from the earlier Volumes but wasn't this the time when Charming ran against Cole for election of Mayor to Fabletown?
I'm not sure what being an outcast has to do with justification of him being executed though (To be honest, I was scratching my head a bit when I read that part).
The point I'm trying to make is, they both tried to kill Bigby or did action/s with intent to cause him grave harm(Dee and Dum more than once actually throughout the game. Bluebeard, while was pretty much angry/mad with Bigby a lot of times, I don't think he actually put that hatred into any action until the comics, unlike Dee and Dum, who punched & shot at Bigby in every turn).
Only difference I see between their situations is that in Bluebeard's case, the executioner was Charming, and in Dum's case, Bigby has an option to dish out his personal justice (although even if it was not personal, the Tweedles are very, very likely to be executed for attempted assassination of the Sheriff, and obstruction of justice being handed to corrupt former Mayor Crane, plus impeding the Sheriff's investigation at every turn - so I see it as justified execution, despite Snow's protests).
All Fables (not just Bigby and Snow) were pretty much annoyed with or hated Bluebeard for butting in Government policies, but I don't think any wanted him dead because of that (even Bigby and Snow, I think they just considered Bluebeard as an annoyance [or large hinderance at best], which may have them at odds all the time, but not enough to actually want them to kill him just for his interference in Fabletown politics).
This incident was before Charming ran against Cole for Mayor. And this was greatly due to Charming becoming filthy rich after having killed Bluebeard and taking all of his riches (and came out of it unscathed, with no punishment/reprimand whatsoever).
Because we're better than him?
Some moments in Fables don't always make a great deal of sense... Guess this was just one of them.
In my opinion, yes.
I was arguing that just because he doesn't show us mercy, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't show him mercy - because we're better than him.
No thats a bullshit reason im srry... You need to fight fire with fire imo. We are better than him so we"ll end that fatso's pathetic life. And if thats your reason, he is better than you imo because you are too weak/pussy to end his life.
Killed him because it is pointless to let him live. Bigby killing Dum is so enjoyable. Fuck him and his brother, they were so annoying.
I agree.
Fight fire with fire...
Many have said that and look what comes out of it (looking at you REAL LIFE)
But in this instance, I can understand why killing him is a good idea. But is it really the ABSOLUTE BEST THING TO DO? No.
I actually agree with @Flog61 here, we should maintain a high ground. Dum getting killed by Bigby sends the wrong kind of message. It's like saying Batman is too weak/pussy to end the Joker's life; he doesn't kill the Joker because then that would be giving into a temptation, and like he says to Robin "I'm afraid that if I do kill him, he'll be replaced with someone worse"
... That being said I also feel that Batman doesn't kill the Joker simply so that he has a real challenge to deal with for the forseeable future.
Totally agreed!
Maybe thats best for you, I however do not give a fuck about pride or honor or any of that. I'll kill the fucker because of what he did to me and what he wanted to do. He was a waste of life anyway imo. And what does batman get by letting the Joker live? Yes only more trouble and innocent deaths because the villians nearly always escape. There should be more characters like The Punisher instead of the cliche stereotype "I don't kill anyone" heroes imo. And you gotta remember that these villians are no regular criminals. But why do you guys care about maintaining high ground anyway? What do you gain from it?
Pretty much how I saw things.
High ground is meant to make you feel like you have truly beaten this person. They WANT you to kill them! Why would you let them win like that...
You are absolutely wrong, ofcourse maybe it makes YOU feel better but certainly not me. It makes me feel better knowing I got rid of the person and that he can never come back ( to for example do bad things). Also you base it all on feelings while its a fact that if you kill them they can never harm anyone anymore. Then you might say: Well they can never do something good aswell if you kill them. What I say to that is that Prevention of the problem is better than solving it ( less effort and no chances of people getting killed etc). I also do not give a shit if they want me to kill them ( btw alot still don't want you to kill them certainly Dum didn't want that). Also making it feel like you truly beaten him? Well say that again when he just escapes and kills people again pffff..
I'm gonna be honest with everyone when I say this:
I don't really care if my enemies get satisfaction or not. I just want them to die a horrible death, satisfaction from them or not.
PLZ tell me you get it...
Indeed. So satisfying.
That's exactly what I mean. I don't give a fuck if the enemy wants me to kill him/her or not ill kill him/her anyway because I want to kill him for what he did/was going to do or just because I don't like him/her. Also when he/she is dead they can't make any more mistakes or do bad things again.
Alright fuck it, I wanted him dead as well but I wanted to keep Snow happy...
Dude I'm not thick, I get it.
I wanted Joffrey to be mutilated, instead he got poisoned >:(
You watch Game of Thrones? Sweet!
Of course! Loved the game TellTale did as well
We got something in common then
@HazzatheMan These 2 people in my pic deserve an avatar. It's one of my top 5 OTPs
In the end its which choice you want to choose, im not here to decide for you obviously. Well Snow will still like you if you kill him, I also chose not to burn down that tree and snow still liked me it seemed. Im not letting snow decide what I can/want to do.
Asher and Beskha
Yep. Ever since Episode 2
Killing someone like that will never bring justice. It was not necessary to end his life, Bigby is not the same animal that he once was. I spared him because I am the fucking Sheriff, not another thug.
Did you think that when you ripped off Gren's arm?
Grendel lived to tell that tale did not he? My Bigby is not a murderer anymore, but he still is the Big Bad Wolf after all.
I'll be honest. I hesitated at first but went through with it anyway. I just saw Bigby as Wolverine and saw Wolverine trying to kill his enemy. Besides, the Tweedles threatened the funeral and made the case difficult. I did kill him, but then I regretted my choice. I went back and spared him, and to be honest, there is really no difference. All that happens is that you don't exactly be accused of murder. I will tell you what I really cared about, Toad and TJ (Clementine) staying in Fabletown. Sadly there was no way to save them. I hope a Season Two will be made so we can see more of this game. I loved all the references.
Why do you let him live ?
He is working for Crooked Man, he is involved with a couple of murders, he tried to kill you in the first place. No reason to let him live. It wont bring you anything. Dee and Dum are just dumb stupid sons of bitches who just cause more troubles for Fabletown in order to make his precious boss happy. Just torn his fucking throat out. Consider as a gift after the crimes he has been involved.
Torn hear, as well.. until ultimately deciding the word "Torn" should be the "Word of the Day"!😊