Marriage. Mira is my favorite character in the Game, also, there are so many reasons for her to live. First of all, I never really cared about Tom, I did not trust him, did not help him with Damien, and I did blackmail him into helping me with the Royal Decree (if his boss wants my attention he better be clear about it). "When you play the Game Of Thrones you win or you die." My Mira stays on the board, she is smarter than that, while you still breathe you can always do something about it, no need to cut the girl now that she is just beginning to understand the game better. There is nothing poethic about dying so only you can ruin Morgryn's plans, you have to be patient, everybody suffer and struggle to survive in GOT, but there is nothing like a day after the other. "Your spirit must be like Iron." You still have two brothers left and Margaery will soon be Queen at the end of the Game. Morgryn played well and may have you on check by now, but hey, never heard about keeping your enemies closer? I believe on Mira's potential, besides, we already had enough Forresters killed for one Season.
Also, consider that marrying Rickard gives him reason to finish off the Forrester survivors to get Ironrath. So by saving Mira you sacrifice Tom, Mira's honour, Rodrik/Asher, Talia and perhaps even Ryon. You can't give Morgryn any motivation to do that. You can't betray your savior coalboy Tom either. So
"You will never have Ironrath, and you will never have me. I'd rather die! "
If you have any last words, speak them now.
"Iron from Ice!"
That "grimy boy" saved her life. How can she denounce her own saviour? Save her so that she'll be raped by that villain? To then rot in a cell? I feel sorry for your Tom. He didn't deserve that.
I chose marriage. Mira dying for what? Some grimy boy she hardly knows? There's a better chance of her coming out of the marriage while stic… moreking it to Morgryn good. Morgryn was a complete idiot (maybe the biggest in any form of the series). Who the hell reveals their entire villain master plan to someone who a day later tries to marry in order to obtain her stronghold, which even when Rodrik/Asher die, Ryon will inherit. I'm honestly surprised how he's lasted this long.
Something wierd about the marriage path: after Tom is beheaded, Mira isn't under guard or anything. So why doesn't she just... leave? 'Justi… morece' was made, the killer had been found... so what's stopping her from just running the hell away from Morgryn?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I chose mariage because, well, being dead is kinda boring and pointless.
I chose death. If it wasn't for Tom's life being on the line, I'd probably agree to marry, I'm usually all about trying to stay alive even i… moref you'll have to go through some disgusting shit, because it gives you a chance. But Tom has always been there for me & vice versa, we formed a really strong friendship, from where I stand, even if it was really hard, I had to save him, I couldn't betray him like that.
But Tom is not totally innocent. No matter your choices in the Garden scene, Tom committed a crime publishable by death.Not to mention, Tom risks his life for Mira many times. What's so different here???
That "grimy boy" saved her life. How can she denounce her own saviour? Save her so that she'll be raped by that villain? To then rot in a cell? I feel sorry for your Tom. He didn't deserve that.
The courts did not work like that in the past. Hence why they were able to behead either Tom or Mira without proof. Hell, was the body ever even found??? Morgryn would have just pointed the finger right back at Mira
Something wierd about the marriage path: after Tom is beheaded, Mira isn't under guard or anything. So why doesn't she just... leave? 'Justi… morece' was made, the killer had been found... so what's stopping her from just running the hell away from Morgryn?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I chose mariage because, well, being dead is kinda boring and pointless.
Well, too be fair, regardless, I don't see Tom living much longer. Not only did he break so many laws, but he could have been blamed for other actions as well.
Also, consider that marrying Rickard gives him reason to finish off the Forrester survivors to get Ironrath. So by saving Mira you sacrifice… more Tom, Mira's honour, Rodrik/Asher, Talia and perhaps even Ryon. You can't give Morgryn any motivation to do that. You can't betray your savior coalboy Tom either. So
"You will never have Ironrath, and you will never have me. I'd rather die! "
If you have any last words, speak them now.
"Iron from Ice!"
That "grimy boy" saved her life. How can she denounce her own saviour? Save her so that she'll be raped by that villain? To then rot in a cell? I feel sorry for your Tom. He didn't deserve that.
Well she did not outsmart the man when she got into that litter. She got the deal from Tyrion just because she's a Forrester working for queen Margaery. Morgryn is an amazingly cunning and Dangerous man. Some of you guys tend to dangerously underestimate him, in my opinion. If you ask Tarwick about Morgryn, he tells you he has an odd reputation, that people are sort of scared of him because he is known to be Dangerous. Andros could bribe a gaurd too. Morgryn even says it won't take him long getting rid of the lord of house whitehill himself. Did I mention he openly threatens a captain of the Lannister guard of King's Landing, telling him Cersei will find him another job? Shows the man has relations, power and wealth. I'll be honest, the man scares me. I would not make any deal with the devil.
Well, too be fair, regardless, I don't see Tom living much longer. Not only did he break so many laws, but he could have been blamed for other actions as well.
I think you got it. That's how justice works in King's Landing. It's the powerful rich beach that decides who is a murderer and who isn't, and the facts don't mean sheet.
The courts did not work like that in the past. Hence why they were able to behead either Tom or Mira without proof. Hell, was the body ever even found??? Morgryn would have just pointed the finger right back at Mira
I stabbed that "guard" to save my lifesaver. Tom didn't commit any crime. And if you do abandon him there, is self defense really a crime? Should Tom let that bitchy lannister murder him too? Seriously...
But Tom is not totally innocent. No matter your choices in the Garden scene, Tom committed a crime publishable by death.Not to mention, Tom risks his life for Mira many times. What's so different here???
Pretty sure self-defense laws weren't as cut and dry as they are today. Especially when you're dealing with a member of authority vs a handmaiden/coal boy. Regardless of who offs the guard, Tom commits a crime. If he kills the guard, he is a murderer. Technically, he provoked a fight with the guard(he was not being attacked, Mira was). If Mira kills him, Tom gets rid of the body. Which is just as bad.
I stabbed that "guard" to save my lifesaver. Tom didn't commit any crime. And if you do abandon him there, is self defense really a crime? Should Tom let that bitchy lannister murder him too? Seriously...
Back then "justice" was not about applying a law text. "Justice" was arbitrary and this way any judgement can be issued. The practice was to discriminate against the poor. But that's no justice but a mere class domination. No matter how true this fact is, domination by wealth/force is not legitimate and can be overridden with someone else's force/wealth or cunning. So when you play that sort of game, it's unfair from the start. If you're poor, or if you're a Forrester in King's Landing, you're a nobody or almost. You lost Margaery's favor? You're a nobody. You get close to powerful people? You can kill anyone and get out of it with sending an innocent to the block. But we're talking about what is morally correct, right? And letting a corrupted lannister murderer assasinate a young girl is extremely unethical. Who do you save, the murderer by doing nothing or the victim? I choose to save the victim and I'd be sort of shocked if you would make a different choice here. Then, is getting rid of a body as bad as murdering someone? No, legally and morally. A murderer is a criminal. Concealement is no crime. It is punishable only max 5 years in most european countries, and if you do that you're a delinquant. Also, civilized countries nowadays don't have any death penalty whatever you might do and I belive it's right (is the US a morally civilized country, quite debatable). Morally, killing someone is worse than jeopardizing a criminal investigation. Once again such investigations are legitimate only if the judgement that comes after is legitimate. And it's not, because the outcome depends on whether or not you agree to marry someone. This is no justice, and any attempt to hinder its investigations are therefore quite legit, especially if it helps saving lives and freedom, here Tom's and Mira's. There's nothing wrong with rebelling against an unfair, violent, repressive and selfish system in which only the powerful wealthy assholes like Morgryn survive. It's either moral, fair and then legit, or it's unfair violence by power. And unfair violence is not legit. Which means what Tom did is legit and good, not bad, whatever he does. Either it's legitimate defense, either it's concealement. Out of those 2 concealement is the worst legally, but not morally, because the justice system of King's Landing is totally fucked.
Morally and nowadays legally:
Killing someone that tries to kill you or someone else is no murder if the kill is strictly necessary to ensure the survival of the victim
Morally
Concealment is legit in case of hindering unfair arbitrary judgements that depend on marriage acceptance and that end in execution of someone that killed in self defense (or did not kill at all)
Legally (nowadays)
Concealment is no crime but an offense, for which there cannot be any death penalty in any country.
Therefore, whatever you choose in the gardens, Tom is no criminal, therefore he does not deserve to be executed. Which is by the way obvious without having to give such detailed argumentation.
Pretty sure self-defense laws weren't as cut and dry as they are today. Especially when you're dealing with a member of authority vs a handm… moreaiden/coal boy. Regardless of who offs the guard, Tom commits a crime. If he kills the guard, he is a murderer. Technically, he provoked a fight with the guard(he was not being attacked, Mira was). If Mira kills him, Tom gets rid of the body. Which is just as bad.
What era are you forming your opinion on? Because the events in the game take place during a time that even lying to the wrong person was a quick death sentence. So I'm sure a coal boy hiding the body of a guard would be beheaded if caught. Not to mention that in some cases, Tom is the actual killer and Mira is totally innocent. Playing that scenario, why should Mira die for Tom??? One has to die; there is no way around that. Given all the reasons you've listen either Mira or Tom are considered MURDERERS! There is no self-defense in the eyes of the King Landings court in this case. Why should Mira bear the cross of murderer if Tom committed the crime??? Why should Mira bear the cross if she killed the guard to protect Tom??? No matter how you spin this, Mira should not go down for him. If someone kills someone saving your life, would you let them go down for the murder if it was between you two?
And before you even bring up the fact that Tom was initially saving Mira, that is not the point. Regardless of which scenario you play, the guard is killed because of Tom. Either by Tom himself, or by Mira saving Tom.
Back then "justice" was not about applying a law text. "Justice" was arbitrary and this way any judgement can be issued. The practice was to… more discriminate against the poor. But that's no justice but a mere class domination. No matter how true this fact is, domination by wealth/force is not legitimate and can be overridden with someone else's force/wealth or cunning. So when you play that sort of game, it's unfair from the start. If you're poor, or if you're a Forrester in King's Landing, you're a nobody or almost. You lost Margaery's favor? You're a nobody. You get close to powerful people? You can kill anyone and get out of it with sending an innocent to the block. But we're talking about what is morally correct, right? And letting a corrupted lannister murderer assasinate a young girl is extremely unethical. Who do you save, the murderer by doing nothing or the victim? I choose to save the victim and I'd be sort of shocked if you would make … [view original content]
I'm just saying, in KL they will find any reason to kill the poor and the weak. Tom was both. Not to mention at times reckless. Tom's death was coming sooner or later.
I think it is more of him picking on people beneath him than him actually having influence. Hence why Tarwick and others with clout have no idea of the basis behind him reputation. I doubt he is even has connects to Cersei as he claims. Heck, even his plan for Mira is wrapped in dog crap.
Well she did not outsmart the man when she got into that litter. She got the deal from Tyrion just because she's a Forrester working for que… moreen Margaery. Morgryn is an amazingly cunning and Dangerous man. Some of you guys tend to dangerously underestimate him, in my opinion. If you ask Tarwick about Morgryn, he tells you he has an odd reputation, that people are sort of scared of him because he is known to be Dangerous. Andros could bribe a gaurd too. Morgryn even says it won't take him long getting rid of the lord of house whitehill himself. Did I mention he openly threatens a captain of the Lannister guard of King's Landing, telling him Cersei will find him another job? Shows the man has relations, power and wealth. I'll be honest, the man scares me. I would not make any deal with the devil.
The punishment for rape during medieval times: balls cut off, but rapers did not get executed. Unless perhaps they rape the lord's daughter, in which case it's likely that the sentence of the lord would be more "personal". So just lying didn't get you executed, unless you piss off real bad someone powerful by your lie. No self defense in the eyes of King's landing courts? Is there even such a thing as a King's landing court? I see no judge, no jury, merely an executioner and a guy that gets satisfied with a false witness. They even execute punishment without having any proof. This is all arbitrary BS. If there's no such thing as self defense in the eyes of that "law", if people get executed without proof of their guilt, if people get sent to the block because they refuse to marry someone, then all of this is everything but justice. You can't trust this fucked system and have to rely on a sense of morality. You can't reason basing your observations on a badly flawed system. I say it's the executioner that kills Mira that is the murderer. Why should Mira save Tom by getting executed? Because without Tom she'd be 6 feet under by now. She owes him one. Sad but you don't denounce or betray your life saver for your life, especially if it's gonna be a piss life getting raped by Morgryn and rotting in a cell. You actually owe Tom days of life. Sacrificing him is stealing his life for your own. It's maybe smart if you want to live at any costs, but it's clearly immoral. Oh and the fact Tom saves Mira initially IS the MAJOR point. Because if he were more selfish or cowardly, you as Mira would not be here to discuss the topic. Jesus the boy saved your life by risking his! Can't you see that? Don't you owe him one? Do you repay him with death? That's fucking unfair! Yes the guard gets killed because of Tom helping out. But you know what, the guard gets killed FIRST OF ALL because he's no guard but a honourless corrupted murderer ready to take a young lady's life that tries to save her family. He gets killed because he tries to kill her. So don't blame Tom for this, blame Damien, HE started this, HE accepted Morgryn's gold, HE went through to murder her and HE did it by misleading her into the gardens at midnight using her sense of family, HE lied to her in that letter, HE messed up her room, HE tried to murder her. But in your eyes, he's an innocent little birdie and the actual victim.
What era are you forming your opinion on? Because the events in the game take place during a time that even lying to the wrong person was a … morequick death sentence. So I'm sure a coal boy hiding the body of a guard would be beheaded if caught. Not to mention that in some cases, Tom is the actual killer and Mira is totally innocent. Playing that scenario, why should Mira die for Tom??? One has to die; there is no way around that. Given all the reasons you've listen either Mira or Tom are considered MURDERERS! There is no self-defense in the eyes of the King Landings court in this case. Why should Mira bear the cross of murderer if Tom committed the crime??? Why should Mira bear the cross if she killed the guard to protect Tom??? No matter how you spin this, Mira should not go down for him. If someone kills someone saving your life, would you let them go down for the murder if it was between you two?
And before you even bring up the fact that T… [view original content]
Not in my walkthrough. He seems smart and agile enough to make it out. As far as he's not being used by someone too selfish and unfair. My Tom's alive, and I wish I will be able to have him as POV for S2 to avenge Mira.
I'm just saying, in KL they will find any reason to kill the poor and the weak. Tom was both. Not to mention at times reckless. Tom's death was coming sooner or later.
It seems wealth in KG allows great many things. Is there any thing you can't buy there for gold? He seems to order any Lannister guard like the king himself provided he has a little sack of gold on him everytime. He bribes to kill, to get rid of guards at the litter scene, to enter her cells. He's good at playing in the dark. If Mira survived it's only because she was lucky Tom was close enough to hear and help in time. So I belive he knows people that can get rid of Ludd, and his heirs. He does have influence. If he doesn't, how can he possibly order around any Lannister guard? He pays Lucan nothing to get rid of him at the Purple Wedding, he just scares him. He can even put Tom in Mira's place on the block, having Lucan as a witness of Mira's presence in the gardens. He does have influence, and his plans make sense too. He's an ambitious opportunist pretending to be someone he's not. He is a two faced snake, and should not be underestimated.
I think it is more of him picking on people beneath him than him actually having influence. Hence why Tarwick and others with clout have no … moreidea of the basis behind him reputation. I doubt he is even has connects to Cersei as he claims. Heck, even his plan for Mira is wrapped in dog crap.
I do believe I said "lying to the wrong person". Meaning it depends on who you lie to; as you said. And the reason(s) why rape did not garner death was due to the rights/views on women at that time. Also, I am neither defending nor objecting the laws. I am just stating the way of life during the times in which this story takes place.
In my eyes, Damien is NOT innocent. He is a non factor. The events of his demise is why we are here. Discussing him is pointless seeings how without him, there would be no discussion.
"You actually owe Tom days of life. Sacrificing him is stealing his life for your own. It's maybe smart if you want to live at any costs, but it's clearly immoral. Oh and the fact Tom saves Mira initially IS the MAJOR point. Because if he were more selfish or cowardly, you as Mira would not be here to discuss the topic. Jesus the boy saved your life by risking his! Can't you see that? Don't you owe him one? Do you repay him with death? That's fucking unfair!"
That makes little sense. If someone sacrificed their own lives for you, CLEARLY THEY WANT YOU TO LIVE. Dying would make their efforts and risks pointless. Especially dying for them
The punishment for rape during medieval times: balls cut off, but rapers did not get executed. Unless perhaps they rape the lord's daughter,… more in which case it's likely that the sentence of the lord would be more "personal". So just lying didn't get you executed, unless you piss off real bad someone powerful by your lie. No self defense in the eyes of King's landing courts? Is there even such a thing as a King's landing court? I see no judge, no jury, merely an executioner and a guy that gets satisfied with a false witness. They even execute punishment without having any proof. This is all arbitrary BS. If there's no such thing as self defense in the eyes of that "law", if people get executed without proof of their guilt, if people get sent to the block because they refuse to marry someone, then all of this is everything but justice. You can't trust this fucked system and have to rely on a sense of morality. You can't reason basing your observa… [view original content]
Not in my walkthrough. He seems smart and agile enough to make it out. As far as he's not being used by someone too selfish and unfair. My Tom's alive, and I wish I will be able to have him as POV for S2 to avenge Mira.
Again, all your examples are of him having power over low ranking men. ANYONE in Kings Landing could have swapped out Mira for Tom. It is not like any of them were "valuable people". Pretty sure that if Mira stays LM's handmaiden, she'd have more pull than Morgryn himself.
It seems wealth in KG allows great many things. Is there any thing you can't buy there for gold? He seems to order any Lannister guard like … morethe king himself provided he has a little sack of gold on him everytime. He bribes to kill, to get rid of guards at the litter scene, to enter her cells. He's good at playing in the dark. If Mira survived it's only because she was lucky Tom was close enough to hear and help in time. So I belive he knows people that can get rid of Ludd, and his heirs. He does have influence. If he doesn't, how can he possibly order around any Lannister guard? He pays Lucan nothing to get rid of him at the Purple Wedding, he just scares him. He can even put Tom in Mira's place on the block, having Lucan as a witness of Mira's presence in the gardens. He does have influence, and his plans make sense too. He's an ambitious opportunist pretending to be someone he's not. He is a two faced snake, and should not be underestimated.
Well she still was under LM protection when Morgryn initiated the murder attempt. Which shows LM protection isn't a problem for that bastard. Obviously he has more power than lower ranking men. There's not so many as powerful as he is, or so many plotting wealthy snakes like him there.
Again, all your examples are of him having power over low ranking men. ANYONE in Kings Landing could have swapped out Mira for Tom. It is no… moret like any of them were "valuable people". Pretty sure that if Mira stays LM's handmaiden, she'd have more pull than Morgryn himself.
Why would he care about Tom? Now that Mira is out of the way Tom is irrelevant to him. Plus it's not that obvious he knows of his involvement. He might know they shared a couple of words, but I sort of doubt he knew more. Even if he did Tom has become irrelevant to him.
They might want you to live, but maybe not at the cost of their lives. I might want you to live, which does not mean I'm gonna sacrifice myself either. Maybe he prefers having his efforts made useless rather than dying. I know I would. And whatever he wants, you might be willing to save your lifesaver. Suppose he wants to die for you. Well it might be reciprocal. Once again that was my case, at the gardens that night, and in the cell to Morgryn. And if you're not ready to give to him as much as he did to you, you're selfish and honor, gratitude isn't your strength either. That's clearly not my nature, hence my choice. Oh and I could not care less about how "justice" was dealt back in the days. I know what's fair and right, and what is not, and that's what leads my actions. They can put their unfair "justice" in their s for all I care, they judge this arbitrary way, I'm judging otherwise, and then it's only a question of power ratio, which, sadly, wasn't in Mira's favor in EP6.
I do believe I said "lying to the wrong person". Meaning it depends on who you lie to; as you said. And the reason(s) why rape did not garne… morer death was due to the rights/views on women at that time. Also, I am neither defending nor objecting the laws. I am just stating the way of life during the times in which this story takes place.
In my eyes, Damien is NOT innocent. He is a non factor. The events of his demise is why we are here. Discussing him is pointless seeings how without him, there would be no discussion.
"You actually owe Tom days of life. Sacrificing him is stealing his life for your own. It's maybe smart if you want to live at any costs, but it's clearly immoral. Oh and the fact Tom saves Mira initially IS the MAJOR point. Because if he were more selfish or cowardly, you as Mira would not be here to discuss the topic. Jesus the boy saved your life by risking his! Can't you see that? Don't you owe him one? Do you repay him… [view original content]
In my first and only playthrough Mira lives. I dont care about honor. Staying alive is important. Forresters are dying like flies anyway. I dont want more of them to die.
My Mira turned into a cunniving bitch in my second play through.
Letting Tom die, and lying about Sera to Margery. But she was pretty much backed into a corner at that point. Plus I was really pro-Sera for every other part of the game.
Comments
frightfully sorry sir i'll correct myself at once
I love you, bruv
love u two guv
Marriage. Mira is my favorite character in the Game, also, there are so many reasons for her to live. First of all, I never really cared about Tom, I did not trust him, did not help him with Damien, and I did blackmail him into helping me with the Royal Decree (if his boss wants my attention he better be clear about it). "When you play the Game Of Thrones you win or you die." My Mira stays on the board, she is smarter than that, while you still breathe you can always do something about it, no need to cut the girl now that she is just beginning to understand the game better. There is nothing poethic about dying so only you can ruin Morgryn's plans, you have to be patient, everybody suffer and struggle to survive in GOT, but there is nothing like a day after the other. "Your spirit must be like Iron." You still have two brothers left and Margaery will soon be Queen at the end of the Game. Morgryn played well and may have you on check by now, but hey, never heard about keeping your enemies closer? I believe on Mira's potential, besides, we already had enough Forresters killed for one Season.
Also, consider that marrying Rickard gives him reason to finish off the Forrester survivors to get Ironrath. So by saving Mira you sacrifice Tom, Mira's honour, Rodrik/Asher, Talia and perhaps even Ryon. You can't give Morgryn any motivation to do that. You can't betray your savior coalboy Tom either. So
"
"You will never have Ironrath, and you will never have me. I'd rather die!
If you have any last words, speak them now.
"Iron from Ice!"
This way you can find many reasons to kill Tom. As many as you wish. Just repeat the same stuff over and over under different numbers lol ;D
That "grimy boy" saved her life. How can she denounce her own saviour? Save her so that she'll be raped by that villain? To then rot in a cell? I feel sorry for your Tom. He didn't deserve that.
good, interesting, points
amen to that
But Tom is not totally innocent. No matter your choices in the Garden scene, Tom committed a crime publishable by death.Not to mention, Tom risks his life for Mira many times. What's so different here???
The courts did not work like that in the past. Hence why they were able to behead either Tom or Mira without proof. Hell, was the body ever even found??? Morgryn would have just pointed the finger right back at Mira
Well, too be fair, regardless, I don't see Tom living much longer. Not only did he break so many laws, but he could have been blamed for other actions as well.
I doubt Morgryn is that type of pull, not to mention that Mira outsmarted him many times.
Cersei said it best and Mira won in that situation and thus still a player in the game
I accepted death. I regretted that but I have to live with it. Anyway, Mira is my least favourite TTG protagonist.
You have to live with being dead.
Lol
Well she did not outsmart the man when she got into that litter. She got the deal from Tyrion just because she's a Forrester working for queen Margaery. Morgryn is an amazingly cunning and Dangerous man. Some of you guys tend to dangerously underestimate him, in my opinion. If you ask Tarwick about Morgryn, he tells you he has an odd reputation, that people are sort of scared of him because he is known to be Dangerous. Andros could bribe a gaurd too. Morgryn even says it won't take him long getting rid of the lord of house whitehill himself. Did I mention he openly threatens a captain of the Lannister guard of King's Landing, telling him Cersei will find him another job? Shows the man has relations, power and wealth. I'll be honest, the man scares me. I would not make any deal with the devil.
There should be a Joffrey POV for you alone then lol
I think you got it. That's how justice works in King's Landing. It's the powerful rich beach that decides who is a murderer and who isn't, and the facts don't mean sheet.
I stabbed that "guard" to save my lifesaver. Tom didn't commit any crime. And if you do abandon him there, is self defense really a crime? Should Tom let that bitchy lannister murder him too? Seriously...
Pretty sure self-defense laws weren't as cut and dry as they are today. Especially when you're dealing with a member of authority vs a handmaiden/coal boy. Regardless of who offs the guard, Tom commits a crime. If he kills the guard, he is a murderer. Technically, he provoked a fight with the guard(he was not being attacked, Mira was). If Mira kills him, Tom gets rid of the body. Which is just as bad.
Back then "justice" was not about applying a law text. "Justice" was arbitrary and this way any judgement can be issued. The practice was to discriminate against the poor. But that's no justice but a mere class domination. No matter how true this fact is, domination by wealth/force is not legitimate and can be overridden with someone else's force/wealth or cunning. So when you play that sort of game, it's unfair from the start. If you're poor, or if you're a Forrester in King's Landing, you're a nobody or almost. You lost Margaery's favor? You're a nobody. You get close to powerful people? You can kill anyone and get out of it with sending an innocent to the block. But we're talking about what is morally correct, right? And letting a corrupted lannister murderer assasinate a young girl is extremely unethical. Who do you save, the murderer by doing nothing or the victim? I choose to save the victim and I'd be sort of shocked if you would make a different choice here. Then, is getting rid of a body as bad as murdering someone? No, legally and morally. A murderer is a criminal. Concealement is no crime. It is punishable only max 5 years in most european countries, and if you do that you're a delinquant. Also, civilized countries nowadays don't have any death penalty whatever you might do and I belive it's right (is the US a morally civilized country, quite debatable). Morally, killing someone is worse than jeopardizing a criminal investigation. Once again such investigations are legitimate only if the judgement that comes after is legitimate. And it's not, because the outcome depends on whether or not you agree to marry someone. This is no justice, and any attempt to hinder its investigations are therefore quite legit, especially if it helps saving lives and freedom, here Tom's and Mira's. There's nothing wrong with rebelling against an unfair, violent, repressive and selfish system in which only the powerful wealthy assholes like Morgryn survive. It's either moral, fair and then legit, or it's unfair violence by power. And unfair violence is not legit. Which means what Tom did is legit and good, not bad, whatever he does. Either it's legitimate defense, either it's concealement. Out of those 2 concealement is the worst legally, but not morally, because the justice system of King's Landing is totally fucked.
What era are you forming your opinion on? Because the events in the game take place during a time that even lying to the wrong person was a quick death sentence. So I'm sure a coal boy hiding the body of a guard would be beheaded if caught. Not to mention that in some cases, Tom is the actual killer and Mira is totally innocent. Playing that scenario, why should Mira die for Tom??? One has to die; there is no way around that. Given all the reasons you've listen either Mira or Tom are considered MURDERERS! There is no self-defense in the eyes of the King Landings court in this case. Why should Mira bear the cross of murderer if Tom committed the crime??? Why should Mira bear the cross if she killed the guard to protect Tom??? No matter how you spin this, Mira should not go down for him. If someone kills someone saving your life, would you let them go down for the murder if it was between you two?
And before you even bring up the fact that Tom was initially saving Mira, that is not the point. Regardless of which scenario you play, the guard is killed because of Tom. Either by Tom himself, or by Mira saving Tom.
I'm just saying, in KL they will find any reason to kill the poor and the weak. Tom was both. Not to mention at times reckless. Tom's death was coming sooner or later.
I think it is more of him picking on people beneath him than him actually having influence. Hence why Tarwick and others with clout have no idea of the basis behind him reputation. I doubt he is even has connects to Cersei as he claims. Heck, even his plan for Mira is wrapped in dog crap.
The punishment for rape during medieval times: balls cut off, but rapers did not get executed. Unless perhaps they rape the lord's daughter, in which case it's likely that the sentence of the lord would be more "personal". So just lying didn't get you executed, unless you piss off real bad someone powerful by your lie. No self defense in the eyes of King's landing courts? Is there even such a thing as a King's landing court? I see no judge, no jury, merely an executioner and a guy that gets satisfied with a false witness. They even execute punishment without having any proof. This is all arbitrary BS. If there's no such thing as self defense in the eyes of that "law", if people get executed without proof of their guilt, if people get sent to the block because they refuse to marry someone, then all of this is everything but justice. You can't trust this fucked system and have to rely on a sense of morality. You can't reason basing your observations on a badly flawed system. I say it's the executioner that kills Mira that is the murderer. Why should Mira save Tom by getting executed? Because without Tom she'd be 6 feet under by now. She owes him one. Sad but you don't denounce or betray your life saver for your life, especially if it's gonna be a piss life getting raped by Morgryn and rotting in a cell. You actually owe Tom days of life. Sacrificing him is stealing his life for your own. It's maybe smart if you want to live at any costs, but it's clearly immoral. Oh and the fact Tom saves Mira initially IS the MAJOR point. Because if he were more selfish or cowardly, you as Mira would not be here to discuss the topic. Jesus the boy saved your life by risking his! Can't you see that? Don't you owe him one? Do you repay him with death? That's fucking unfair! Yes the guard gets killed because of Tom helping out. But you know what, the guard gets killed FIRST OF ALL because he's no guard but a honourless corrupted murderer ready to take a young lady's life that tries to save her family. He gets killed because he tries to kill her. So don't blame Tom for this, blame Damien, HE started this, HE accepted Morgryn's gold, HE went through to murder her and HE did it by misleading her into the gardens at midnight using her sense of family, HE lied to her in that letter, HE messed up her room, HE tried to murder her. But in your eyes, he's an innocent little birdie and the actual victim.
Not in my walkthrough. He seems smart and agile enough to make it out. As far as he's not being used by someone too selfish and unfair. My Tom's alive, and I wish I will be able to have him as POV for S2 to avenge Mira.
It seems wealth in KG allows great many things. Is there any thing you can't buy there for gold? He seems to order any Lannister guard like the king himself provided he has a little sack of gold on him everytime. He bribes to kill, to get rid of guards at the litter scene, to enter her cells. He's good at playing in the dark. If Mira survived it's only because she was lucky Tom was close enough to hear and help in time. So I belive he knows people that can get rid of Ludd, and his heirs. He does have influence. If he doesn't, how can he possibly order around any Lannister guard? He pays Lucan nothing to get rid of him at the Purple Wedding, he just scares him. He can even put Tom in Mira's place on the block, having Lucan as a witness of Mira's presence in the gardens. He does have influence, and his plans make sense too. He's an ambitious opportunist pretending to be someone he's not. He is a two faced snake, and should not be underestimated.
I do believe I said "lying to the wrong person". Meaning it depends on who you lie to; as you said. And the reason(s) why rape did not garner death was due to the rights/views on women at that time. Also, I am neither defending nor objecting the laws. I am just stating the way of life during the times in which this story takes place.
In my eyes, Damien is NOT innocent. He is a non factor. The events of his demise is why we are here. Discussing him is pointless seeings how without him, there would be no discussion.
That makes little sense. If someone sacrificed their own lives for you, CLEARLY THEY WANT YOU TO LIVE. Dying would make their efforts and risks pointless. Especially dying for them
Who says Tom is alive???? Given that the choice was either him or Mira, clearly Morgryn knows of his involvement. Why would he let him live???
Again, all your examples are of him having power over low ranking men. ANYONE in Kings Landing could have swapped out Mira for Tom. It is not like any of them were "valuable people". Pretty sure that if Mira stays LM's handmaiden, she'd have more pull than Morgryn himself.
Well she still was under LM protection when Morgryn initiated the murder attempt. Which shows LM protection isn't a problem for that bastard. Obviously he has more power than lower ranking men. There's not so many as powerful as he is, or so many plotting wealthy snakes like him there.
Why would he care about Tom? Now that Mira is out of the way Tom is irrelevant to him. Plus it's not that obvious he knows of his involvement. He might know they shared a couple of words, but I sort of doubt he knew more. Even if he did Tom has become irrelevant to him.
They might want you to live, but maybe not at the cost of their lives. I might want you to live, which does not mean I'm gonna sacrifice myself either. Maybe he prefers having his efforts made useless rather than dying. I know I would. And whatever he wants, you might be willing to save your lifesaver. Suppose he wants to die for you. Well it might be reciprocal. Once again that was my case, at the gardens that night, and in the cell to Morgryn. And if you're not ready to give to him as much as he did to you, you're selfish and honor, gratitude isn't your strength either. That's clearly not my nature, hence my choice. Oh and I could not care less about how "justice" was dealt back in the days. I know what's fair and right, and what is not, and that's what leads my actions. They can put their unfair "justice" in their s for all I care, they judge this arbitrary way, I'm judging otherwise, and then it's only a question of power ratio, which, sadly, wasn't in Mira's favor in EP6.
It'd probably be much smarter to choose life over death. I mean even if that life is a short lived one where you get your revenge.
Because why give up?
Death. To be fair, Morgryn was terrible at selling the idea or marriage.
In my first playthrough Mira died.
In my second "canon" playthrough, she reluctantly marries Morgryn in hopes of screwing him over in the future.
In my first and only playthrough Mira lives. I dont care about honor. Staying alive is important. Forresters are dying like flies anyway. I dont want more of them to die.
My Mira turned into a cunniving bitch in my second play through.
Letting Tom die, and lying about Sera to Margery. But she was pretty much backed into a corner at that point. Plus I was really pro-Sera for every other part of the game.
Felt bad about poor old Tom though