The Battle for Winterfell (books)
ok, so im doing this thread to ask fellow book readers here. im still on book two... but i know a lot of the story, how will this play out? from what i know this "battle" will be fairly one sided to Stannis's side (Ha, its the other way around from the show). i mean Who is gonna side to the Bolton's side? the Karkstarks and that's it? all the other houses, from what i know at least, seem to be joining Stannis for the "North Remembers" deal. now i know that the army sizes are far larger on the books than the show, obviously, but didn't Stannis have already some men? and then a lot of the Northen houses joining wouldn't that make them a bigger army? unless the Boltons and Karstark's alone have an army bigger than all the other northen houses... i mean yeah Karstarks probably didn't lose soldiers by deserting Robb and not getting slaughter in the red wedding and the bolton's since, yeah they were the ones doing the killing.. but they still could've lost men, no?
anyways i just wanted to ask that, unless some other Houses are betraying the Starks i dont see how that battle will be even. its not like the battle of the bastards was anywhere close, but a giant sure made up some ground.. anywho, thanks:)
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House Dustin is ruled by Barbery Dustin, she hates the Stark's. Daughter to Rodrik Ryswell, sister to Bethany Ryswell/Bolton. Bethany is Roose's dead wife and mother to Domeric. Why Eddard allowed Barbery to rule house dustin after William Dustin's death i don't know.
There are Frey soldiers in the Bolton force, but they cause problem, even the houses loyal to the Bolton's have not forgotten the red wedding. After the death of Aenys Frey, the command of the Frey forces go to the idiot Hosteen Frey.
House Umber is playing both sides, because Greatjon is a prisoner at the twins.
Wyman Manderly Is loyal to the Stark's, he swears loyalty to Stannis in exchange for the safe return of Rickon from Skagos. But he is playing the game and is faking loyalty to Roose. Roose obviously does not trust him. And orders the Manderly men to fight in the vanguard.
Hopefully i remember right.
ousen made a great post about Bolton's side, I will only add that those who swear fealty to Roose fear his bastard and that they've got Hornwood's men in their side (but they are likely to switch sides aswell).
As for the Karstarks, I won't spoil you, but they're unlikely to help the Boltons.
So in number, counting all the plots, it's supposed to be Stannis who got the superior number.
Still the Boltons have the advantage of fresh men who have plenty of foods and being in the castle (meaning they can survive a siege) and some horses while Stannis's troops are hungry and confronting cold weather.
GRRM is a better writer than either D or D. Hopefully the battle isn't as full of jackassery and is better in the books. Some things just felt a bit weirdly fictional for me (the knights of the Vale arriving just on time, Jon "the almighty untouchable god" Snow facing an entire army being untouched. Stannis has the main Karstarks in his capture and he's said he won't be showing them any form of mercy no matter what they do. I do hope Jon's side even if formidable loses at least some men as with a huge disadvantage in numbers they still swiftly beat the Boltons without any trouble. If the Boltons get Rickon is sort of up in the air. I facepalmed when he died in the show ( just because of how terrible he was thrown in) so if he is maybe Martin can do better. I don't think Martin will kill Roose. Ever. He's like Stannis' polar opposite and he doesn't really care at all about Ramsay that much or at least as much as the show.
alright thank you, thank you both. i have some free time, i will try to finish a book im reading for right now ( The Road) and then get right back to ASOIaF. really wish GRRM would release TWOW.. im already hyped..
ehh the show is the show and the books are the books. of course is gonna be better, its all the details that will go on it that will make it great.
the vale army arriving just in time did rubbed me the wrong way, i myself (if i had the power to say how it would have gone down) would have made that horn be the Manderlyn's and Glovers, (or some other house maybe forresters? Kappa), a small part of them, come and assist and then start to tilt the battle in Jon's way and as it's looking good for them, THEN the Vale also shows up and completely tilts everything against the boltons then they have that scene that they had in winterfell. idk something like that.
also it might not sound that cool since im shit at writing. i didnt fully mind the "untouchable God" jon shit cause to me it didnt feel all that much. sure the arrows missing him completely was kinda bullshit to me, but the rest was good imo.
There are Northern Houses embedded on both sides of the fence, so to speak.
But, IMO, most of these Northern houses are loyal to the Starks (aside from the Karstarks, Boltons, and Stannis' Men).
The group that joins with Stannis' march was already attacking the Iron Born at Deepwood Motte before they knew Stannis was even coming, so to me, that means they are following their own plans and discretion to reclaim the North from outside influences.
The group of Lords in Winterfell with Roose, are mostly there because they have no other choice than to publicly align with them if they want the hostages taken at the Red Wedding returned to their respective families. Lord Manderly explicitly states this to Davos (if i recall correctly), and also makes clear that they are holding secret meetings and waiting for the right moment to strike.
There is a great series of posts over at Westeros.org about The Grand Northern Conspiracy that go into much greater detail about all of the little hints and implications. I know that a lot of people think that the theory is a little too 'all encompassing' and perhaps includes some wishful thinking.
But to me it seems like a real probability and i find it intriguing to consider. Hope this helps Jamex1223
I don't know how loyal the Hornwood men really are.
I mean, Ramsay kidnapped their Lady and forced her to wed and bed him, then proceeded to lock her up and starve her to death. She ate her own fingers for crying out loud. So, unless her men were real pricks to begin with...
Yes, that's why I said they are likely to switch sides aswell.
Ah, well, then i agree with you Euron! Lol.
Sorry, didn't mean to sound critical
I don't buy it. That means they would have to betray Stannis, which would be a terrible move ending with losing forces they could join together against their common foes.
And some northerners joined him for what he is; a king and his military deeds. It's all the Northern clans, Glovers for giving him back his fief and the remaining soldiers of the battle at Winterfell 1.0. I don't recall northerners attacking at Deepwotte Motte before Stannis.
No offense taken!
I read some of the theory, it was so much Stark wanking that my head started to hurt. The theory hangs on that Robb's letter, that legitimizes Jon has reached the north. The theory even goes so far to say that Brynden Tully was faking his dislike against Jon, when he was talking to Jaime, to hide that Jon had been legitimized.
All the hill clans swore loyalty to Stannis, it's with them he takes back Deepwotte Motte. Which wins him more support. As you pointed out. Alysane Mormont is there with soldiers under her command, but they only join Stannis in taking Deepwotte back.
I think that Staniss will win and then the northern lords will betray him and kill him,then putting Jon King (Robb's will)
I don't think anyone has actually sworn to Stannis as their King, except for Manderly to Davos, but Stannis is unaware of this dubious promise.
The Northern Clans have agreed to aid him in taking Winterfell from the Boltons, but in my opinion, they have no desire or obligation to aid Stannis in going any further than that, and i don't think it likely that they will allow Stannis to hold Winterfell either. The only reason they agree to help is to liberate The Ned's daughter (fake) Arya in the first place.
Yes their interests align with Stannis for now. I don't see that remaining the case for long at all, Stannis never had the North's best interest in mind, it was always about how He could benefit from it, and i think he's caused more damage than good since he went North.
I understand that some parts of the Theory could be condidered biased, and that it may be too pro-jon as well. But, i think that there are a lot of good connections and ideas as well. To each their own, i guess.
Northern clans joins because Jon advised it. They are ignored by everyone, poor lads. The first king who came here, they swear fealty to him.
Hum.. Whaaaat? Ok it's your opinion but I don't see how. He's rescuying both Starks; when he found the girl he thinks is Arya he sends her to Jon. He frees the Wall from the wildlings. He helped the Nightswatch. He wants the Bolton tyranny put down. He fought the Ironborn and is the only king taking seriously the threat of the Others.
He did more for the North than anyone on this day. The North belongs to him by right as a part of his realm, but that doesn't mean he will take Winterfell for himself. He's likely to give it to the first stark alive he will have at hands, as long as he will help him taking back the rest of his realm.
Yes, the Clans joined Stannis' march because Jon advised them to. But they didn't swear fealty to him.
I think we may have to just agree to disagree on this stuff
my views on Stannis are not very complimentary. And i still view the North as their own seperate Kingdom, apart from the other 6.
Cheers though, and thanks for the discussion Euron!
I think Stannis will lose, but various people will make it to the wall. He left the Red Woman at the wall so no magic. The snows are deep...his knights still are not accustomed to winter and fighting horseless.
He's got the Northern clans who are well accustomed to winter. He will probably use that lake aswell.