Wait. So... About Lily
According to the game characters, Lily had been missing for weeks, yet her Death is more recent, as she is glamoured as Snow. So why did she go missing?
Also, Evidence pointed that Lily's murder was staged to make it look like Crane did it, but it was Georgie all along. So Georgie staged that whole thing? How did Georgie know that Lily was going to glamour herself as Snow, and then go to Crane's 207 place? Plus, if Lily was working for Georgie then wouldn't Georgie of all people know that That wasn't actually Snow White?
Sign in to comment in this discussion.
Comments
I'm glad you brought this up. This is something that always bugged me.
I never understood that. Holly wanted her sister found yet she knew where Lily worked, so why didn't she just ask Georgie since she knew Lily worked for him? Also how would she be missing if Beauty saw her with her clients?
What I don't understand is why there was so much blood on the bed in room 207. I mean all Georgie would've done is remover her ribbon. And we saw how much blood came out when Vivian removed hers. Yet the blood is all over the bed like someone was trying to cut Lily's body into body parts. I don't think Georgie would've done all that.
Well Georgie did talk to Crane (Georgie also asked the business office if he could talk to the Deputy Mayor in Ep 2) so that's probably how he knew and kept it in his ledger.
Well, considering that the neck has a major artery, the pool of blood makes way more sense than when Vivian killed herself. Also, the Crooked man told Georgie to take care of it, and Georgie did admit to killing them both. Later, Bigby said at least 2-3 times that the whole thing was staged to point to Crane. Thing is, why would Georgie (or anyone in the Crooked's staff) incriminate someone that had been part of the same operation? (Maybe Crane wasn't a big part in it, which makes sense after seeing how he was treated around like a dog). Maybe he wanted to take an opportunity to put an end to Bigby's investigation by giving him a prime suspect, which kind of worked for a while.
Yeah but "Fake-Snow" died at the end of episode One, which means Lily was killed there. But the whole Georgie questioning thing wasn't until episode 2. Also, Georgie never got the chance to speak to anyone. If you hang around when Georgie is making the call, you will see he is put in hold after hold after hold, which makes me suspect he wasn't attended at all.
When you went to Open Arms, Beauty tells you that she "did hear that strange loud music some nights ago" (or maybe she said yesterday, not sure). So that murder happened some time prior to Bigby being there. Therefore, whoever killed Lily, was onto Crane.
I'm starting to suspect that due to all of the rewrites, the writers may have f'd up and not given us closure to things like Lily's murder and wether it is Nerissa or Faith at the end. It would make sense, since after all these years you would expect them to make a comment about it and give us closure, but they quite haven't. Unless there's a way that we can figure this out.
I don't think any evidence was planted to frame Crane. Crane just made himself look really guilty. The only thing Georgie left in that room was Lilly's blood and his cigarettes.
Yeah but in the game it is mentioned at least 3 times by Bigby that Crane was framed, or maybe it was a false hypothesis.
So, a lot of this seems to just be plot holes and continuity errors, rather than actual clues about what happened. I think the whole 'Lily being missing for weeks' thing was just a mistake that didn't get fixed in the massive rewrite of episode 2.
As I understood it, in episode 1, Crane had a 'massage' appointment with Lily in room 207, there he and Lily (glamoured as Snow) had some of the wine he brought, and then acted out his Snow White fantasy, which they'd probably already done before on other occasions. He ripped off her 'Snow White' fairy tale costume and they had sex. Then Crane put the torn (not bloody) costume back in the cupboard and left. Then Georgie, having already killed 'Faith', perhaps knowing that Lily frequents room 207, came looking for her there. He found her their glamoured as Snow, but could tell it was her because of the inconsistencies in her cheap glamour and the track marks on her leg. He killed her, per the Crooked Man's instructions, dragged her off the bed and then dumped her body in the river with help from Bloody Mary or the Tweedles maybe.
The real question is, why did Lily's head end up on the steps of the Woodlands? Why didn't Georgie just throw it in the river with her body?
It could be that Georgie was opportunistically trying to frame Crane for both murders, but given that the Crooked Man wanted to protect Crane from being arrested in episode 3, that doesn't really line up.
When you murder on someone's orders, you have to bring back proof that you actually murdered the victim. You don't usually bring back the head, but given the heads-off spell, that would make it pretty convenient.
That doesn't explain why Lily's head ended up at the Woodlands at all. If Georgie brought it to him, the Crooked Man would have no reason to leave it there. Not to mention it was still glamoured as Snow, so it wouldn't actually be proof that Lily was dead anyway.
I took the whole "snow's head at your doorstep" thing as a Message for Bigby to stop digging. As a "see what you get" stepping-on-your-toes or post-warning action.
But at the same time, I don't think that the whole "message" thing was supposed to have fake-snow, but actual snow. I suspect this because Tweedle-Dee, when interrogating him, is also shocked at the sight of Snow being alive. And he shouldn't be, because if Crooked Man had told his minions to kill snow white as a message, then all of the Crooked man's crew would know that snow was supposed to be dead, instead of any fake-snows.
Which I assume implies that it originally was supposed to really be Snow's head, but that was changed in the episode 2 rewrite and substituted for Lily's glamoured head, thus explaining the discrepancy about Lily being missing. She was originally meant to be 'missing for weeks', but when the writers realised they needed someone else to be dead instead of Snow, the missing girl made the most sense, so they altered her role in the story to fit the new narrative.
Maybe they regretted just how much they were breaking with the canon, by killing Snow off, given she and Bigby have a long history in the Fable comics that hadn't happened yet.
I think that most of these plotholes, including "if its either Nerissa or Faith at the end" is caused by the writer's neglect during these rewrites.
Not that these rewrites were a bad idea, according to the creator the game was supposed to be more comical and goofy than it is now. He also pointed that the rewrite was done quickly, so that may explain why they didn't close up so many details.
Can you explain what your talking about in this part? Sorry about asking I'm just trying to remember all the events that happened in the game because it's been a long time since I last played it.
Something else I just realized. Was it ever clear that Nerissa was the one who put Lily's head there? I know she did it with Faith but it would have been good to know if she did. But that doesn't really make much sense to me. Because when Bigby tells Nerissa that Lily was killed in the Oprn Arms, Nerissa didn't know that. And if she doesn't know how would she have gotten the head. It was also never clear who dumped Fake-Snow's body and put her head at the front door of the Woodlands.
She said it was the night before.
I'm guessing they wanted us to guess on our own whether it was Nerissa or Faith but as for everything else I would agree they may have dropped some of the writing.
I actually think that Nerissa actually staged the whole crime scene at the Open Arms.
Think about it, Nerissa’s whole plan from the beginning was to point Bigby and Snow in the right direction so it makes sense that Nerissa would make Crane out to be a killer which then gets Bigby on his trail which gets the attention of Crooked Man. Not only that why would Crane leave the photos there? The way they’re placed in the room seems as though they’re deliberately designed to be found by Bigby.
I also believe Nerissa was the one who left Lily’s head on the doorstep.
A lot of this isn’t exactly made clear though and I think the narrative really should have clarified a lot of these loose ends a lot better by the end but I do think it’s a plausible theory.
No I think that after Lily and Crane were finished Georgie entered the room and removed Lily's ribbon and than placed her at the Woodlands still glamoured as Snow White to send a message to Bigby that his friends will suffer the consequences for his investigation into the Crooked Man.
Yes, I didn't word it properly.
Bigby and Snow, said around 2-3 times that that whole murder scene at the open arms was completely staged, and designed to point to Crane as the killer.
So, why would anyone of the Crooked Man's staff try to incriminate Crane, if Crane was one of them? Maybe Crane was their scapegoat, you know, since he wasn't exactly "popular" amongst the Crooked man's people, and he was the weakest. However, if Crane did fall, he would obviously crack and speak, spilling out everything. Plus, it wouldn't even make sense. Why? Because Bloody Mary later says "he wouldn't stab a pig if his life depended on it", so why would Bloody Mary ever defend Crane if he was the scapegoat? Maybe they were using him as a distraction to stall Bigby's investigation?
So the question is: Who staged the crime scene?
The ones that moved Fake-Snow's (Lily) body was Georgie and Devil-guy. In which case they would be the ones finding and disposing of the body. But, for what I said before, it still doesn't make sense. The "x" who staged the crime scene also was in possession of Faith's stolen photo, and placed it there, along other photos, in order to incriminate Crane further.
On a final note. Lily died the previous day of the open-arm murder scene. Which doesn't make sense at all, considering she "had been missing for weeks". Plot hole there. And Lily's sister knew about the glamours, and her job, so it wouldn't be that hard. Also doesn't make sense because the whole "admitting that she stole the photo" drama (which ended in "faith"'s murder) was at the very beginning of the game. So it wouldn't make sense that Lily went missing weeks ago.
Nope. My best guess is that it was the Crooked's crew. To send a message. Remember though, it was never "Nerissa", it was always Faith. Faith glamoured as Nerissa. Nerissa was 100% dead from the start, because she was glamoured as Faith and accidentally killed instead of actual Faith. Because Faith (who stole the photo) chickened out, got glamoured as Nerissa, accused ""faith"" of stealing the photo. Nerissa was glamoured as Faith for a job that day, so Georgie killed her. So then, ""Nerissa"" (faith), guilty, stole the head and placed it at the beginning. But Lily's head? it was never clear who did it.
Plot holes man, plot holes. But you won't notice those details and ask yourself those questions unless you have played the game like, two or three times. The game is still good, awesome in fact, and very enjoyable. I just wish they hadn't hurried their re-writes, many things could have been avoided.
I agree with this. But why would Crane ever leave all of his photos behind? His book? Was he dragged out or something?
Well Ichabod Crane is considered a sick pervert from some of the Fables in Fable town perhaps he saw Georgie kill Lily and it scared Ichabod. If you look back at episode 3 when Bloody Mary shows up she states if Ichabod Crane has a stomach ache and that he pissed his sheets until a certain age. So perhaps he forgot about it after he ran out of the room when Georgie showed up and the photos are hidden until Bigby finds them. Also remember in episode 5 when asked who killed Faith and Lily Georgie says that he killed THEM, Them is a plural form of people which would mean Faith and Lily. Another thing is that Bloody Mary said that Crane can't even kill a pig if his life depended on it. These are just some of the dialogues that I think adds more depth to story than any other TellTale game.
That is a good theory, that Georgie entered the place while Crane was there. Although I think it was more of a plot-hole, because there can be many angles, none of which really close up.
I think the whole Lily was missing thing was really just her not contacting Holly or Gren. Holly mentions that they were somewhat estranged but obviously they still kept in contact otherwise how would she know her sister was missing? It would also explain why Holly and Gren are majorly pissed at Woody, it would mean he knew she wasn't missing and didn't tell anyone. Maybe that was even when Lily started gettin' into the drugs?
Also, I don't think the crooked man set Crane up. I think its possible Georgie did that bit on his own, just to keep himself from being implicated. It would explain why he was so willing to give Nerissa a key for her and Bigby, despite knowing Bigby was asking about room 207. He'd also have access to the photo's as he knows about them and it was Faith who had them, which explains why her things were broken. There's also the fact that when Crane goes to try and make Nerissa talk, and Snow decides he's not the killer, Vivian steps in like 'if not him then who?' as if she wanted to create some doubt in Snow's theory.
And I think Georgie absolutely knew about Lilly being glamoured as Snow. He knew more about what the girls did then he let on. Why else have the book in his safe rather then with the girls, in their dressing room?
He may have planted Lilly's head on the woodlands steps to send Bigby a message to stay away or it was part of his plan to frame Crane as a serial-killer. It could have also been Jersey Devil, who has a sick sense of humor, and wanted to mess with Bigby for the laughs. I don't think he would particularly care about either Georgie or Crane being implicated.
However, I think its more likely that Georgie placed it to try and frame Crane. He knew Bigby was looking into Faith's murder so he might've been desperate to get the 'big bad wolf' off his trail.
Also the theory that he thought it was actually Snow White is already disproved as Georgie admits to Bigby that his intentions were to kill Faith and Lilly. He blamed them both for the photo and wanted to make an example of them.
I think that it might have been a Fable that was cut or not shown in the Season because upon talking to TJ about Lily's death he mentions a Fable saying "Stop laughing at me" and Bigby can ask if there was anyone laughing to which TJ replies "No!" so perhaps it could've been a Fable that has a mental issue although with all the rewriting that went into this season it's easy for them to lose track of what was in previous episodes. I choose to believe that CrookedMan was not the true mastermind but rather a puppet that someone was using because of all his connections to the other Fables. Think about it why would Bloody Mary (someone who can easily beat the Crooked Man) work for him instead of just taking over his operations.
It was Georgie that said 'stop laughing at me' and he said it to the Jersey Devil. In episode 5, if you wait and listen in before you kick down the door to the crooked man's room, you'll hear Georgie go something like 'am I some kind of joke to you? What did I say? Stop laughing at me' to which the Jersey Devil replies.
As for the crooked man not being in charge? I don't know. I figure if season 2 continues on with a different story we can assume the crooked man was behind it.
Wow thanks for telling me about Georgie being the one who said that!
I still believe that the story would've played out differently because of the rewrites but good to know that Georgie actually is the villain of the game.
Yeah, the rewrites definitely added some serious plot holes. Still, you know a story is good when it does so well despite those issues. lol. Telltale's got some serious talent.
I agree 110% they have some great talent on their writing team just to name a few Nicole Martinez and Emily Garrison they are my favorite writers on the Telltale writing staff. Batman episode 3 was by far my favorite in Season 1 and Season 2! I don't remember who wrote The Wolf Among Us Season 1 but they did great work too despite the rewrites. I just think that TellTale is doing better in 2017 because they did awesome work with Minecraft Season 2, Guardians of the Galaxy, and Batman Season 2. Well back on topic of Lily I don't know Grendel says that they reported Lily missing weeks ago but then only have Holly tell Bigby and Snow that she was working at the pudding and pie unless Lily was forced to create glamours in Johan's Butcher shop?
That's a good theory. It would explain how she was missing for Holly and Gren but not for Faith and Nerrisa and stuff.
So I recently replayed the Open Arms scene, and well, we know that the murder had happened the night before Bigby found the crime scene. And everything pointed out to it being Crane leaving notes for Lily ("snow") to do, and then entering to be with Lily. We don't know how much exactly after that Crane killed her, all we know is that it happened during the period in which Crane entered until he left because he had put on very loud music which lasted for hours. However, we also know that Crane wasn't aware about this at all, and claimed it was a setup.
What if those incriminating photos were from times before as in, from other moments where Crane did the exact same thing, because we know he did that same ritual very often.
I have a theory. What if it was someone glamoured as Crane? it would make the most sense. Georgie glamours himself as Crane and kills her, then Georgie and Jersey Devil set up the crime scene to incriminate crane and get rid of the body?
After all, remember that the day Lily died, Crane told snow to tell his ""massagist"" that he would be late for the "massage" the massage code being Lily of course.
Georgie being glamoured as Crane during that scene clears up a lot of problems in the story. Good job!
The only problem with this is..............Crane's return to the Pudding and Pie! Why did the girls not point to Georgie when he asked who killed her. I mean Nerissa was able to tell Bigby certain things that gave him leads about the ribbons and the Open-Arms Hotel meaning that they were only not allowed to talk about it, all she would have to do is point at Georgie and problem solved. Also Georgie kills Faith which means that Nerissa would know that it was Georgie and just have to lift her arm, motion her eye to Georgie while looking at Bigby, or anything really because they were just not able to talk with the ribbons on them. I do agree that your theory makes sense up to Episode 3 but there is where it falls apart and I really liked the theory you had The Bat Among Us.
dANKE for the appreciation my fellow bigby-lover.
I think, however, that if Georgie were to have glamoured himself as Crane, the girls wouldn't know. Because they wouldn't need to know, Georgie wouldn't have told them, it was all secret, since not even the girls knew that it was Georgie and Devil that killed Lilly anyways. The only person who found out is Bigby.
And about the girls. They couldn't have said it was Georgie, not even look in his direction to point at him. The ribbons don't just count Words, but Actions too. The maximum "Nerissa" did for us was to tell us (at bigby's office) in a veery vague and ambiguous way, that she backstabbed her friend, getting the real Nerissa killed, and then impersonated her to stay alive and hidden. But you can only figure it out once you have finished the game, otherwise it doesn't make much sense. So, in that case, with their ribbons on, they couldn't have possibly said nor pointed out that Georgie impersonated Crane. Or that it was Georgie at all (again, because they wouldn't have known either). That's my theory at least.
Sorry if this has already been said. But at the end Narissa said that Lily, Faith and herself were all going to run away. But Lily backed out and was going to try and go on her own. Narissa told Georgie that Lily was going to leave and that’s what caused Lily’s death.
Narissa also said that Faith wasn’t suppose to be with Crane that night it was Lily’s job to go and glamour as snow. But because Lily got killed I guess Faith took Lily’s place but at same time Narissa must of taken Faiths place to see the woodcutter because Woodie kept asking do you recognise me? And “Faith” said no. Hence why I don’t think it was the real Faith.
Narissa and “Faith” both say your not as bad as everyone thinks you are and do you like my ribbon. Both Smoked huff and puff.
Well actually she does know, remember when she says that Faith stole a picture and had dirt on the Crooked Man's allies? Nerissa also later says that he said he made an example out of Faith who committed "treason" and removed the Ribbon in front of them, which means she knew it was Georgie who killed Faith. Nerissa knew who it was that killed Lily, just she was not able to talk about it which makes the game a bit complicated at this point because it never said it would block any actions the wearer could do it just said they can't talk about work.
Crane also smashed the Magic Mirror after Beauty, Beast, and Bigby found the pictures meaning that they knew he was the Crooked Man's ally. Also Snow asks him how long he had been doing that with Lily and he states to long or something along those lines which means that he was in the room and Georgie had the keys for all the doors in the hotel which let him have access to all of those doors.
The only question is why did he kill Lily she seemed to be loyal to them unless I am forgetting something in the story about Lily.
I was just wondering about this when replaying episode 2 today.
I guess since she uses glamour so much anyway, she was probably just in a different form than her usual one under most of her clientele. Woody & Crane were both among them and they'd apparently been seeing her in secret for quite some time, so she was definitely hush-hush.
Thus she could be consistently deemed "missing" by the other hookers, Vivian, and Georgie not talking about seeing her.
I kinda get the impression in hindsight that Crane might've just fucked up (hrnhr) halfway through.
Though to be completely honest, I was under the impression that Bloody Mary was the killer goin into this.
yeah she was gone for weeks either she was just voluntarily working her ass off or georgie wouldn’t let her leave or maybe even crane wouldn’t let her leave the room also this is off topic but bigby should have had more options to let out his anger on crane like punching him or slapping him was good breaking his nose was unnecessary especially with snow standing right there