Thanks Liquid for writing all this out. It really hits the nail on the head, and coming from you as you are probably one of the most well-versed users in forum fiction here.
Also, if you're making that list, could you add my fic to it, even though I haven't updated in over a month? I just came back.
There's this thing I've been thinking about for a while now, but I never saw a good time to mention it. I guess this might be a good place t… moreo bring this up though, so allow me to explain my thoughts on the matter and a little proposal on how to deal with the problem. Apologies for the longer post, but this is something that has to be said.
So, the way I see it, the Forum Games section as a whole separate section is kinda obsolete. I've never been much of a fan of limiting creative writing, probably one of the most time intensive forms of fan work, to a section that is barely visible and which many people here in the forums might not even be aware of. In the entire run of the forums, there has been one single time where fanfiction actually threatened to overshadow general discussion and it was in the 2014 TWD section, which in general has not been the brightest time of the forums. Perhaps a bit more fanfiction would have actually been bette… [view original content]
I was born as a fanfic writer right at the end of what you call the Golden Age of FanFic. I had made a Walking Dead fanfic when it was still popular and everybody got mad at me for it, because it was when the forums were being flooded and then the Forum Games section went up the very next day. I got screwed by it.
Well here you are being very fair and i agree, but still i can't help being angered over the eventual consequences. Though to be honest, i h… moreave personally disliked the choice since it began. It shocked me honestly how the Great Interfic Purge of 2014 happened so instantly. Many stories suffered greatly and all it led to was the space to be open for the Jane/ Kenny War, which is one of the most awful moments in Forum History that i hope will never be repeated. Several peaceful question and conversation threads, some of my own, were quickly turned into disgusting threads full of vile insults and personal attacks. I might be remembering things too positively since i was 'raised' by the Golden Age of Interfics, but i can't help but feel like some of the chaos could have been prevented had they at least reconsidered or brought in a less drastic option.
Ok, so i spend the last hour or so looking through the Forum Games section and have absolutel… [view original content]
First of all, thank you very much for taking the time to discuss this! Even just a talk about the situation is a good thing, because one thing is for sure, things are terrible the way they are right now in the Forum Games section.
Well, coming to ideas, I really don't see much harm in allowing stories to be placed in the respective sections again and not in the Forum Games. It works well with GoT fanfiction in the general discussion, so I think it could be worth trying to have them in the TWD section and in the general Telltale Talk as well. They have been allowed there before, when I first became a forum regular in Summer 2014, but since everyone wanted to make one for a very limited amount of time, the previously completely dead Forum Games section was resurrected to contain them. Before this occasion, the Forum Games section has been housed only true forum games, most of it pretty low effort content. Things have changed since then, the forums have changed, the users and the general style of moderation and now there are only very few active TWD fanfictions left. They won't do much harm in the General TWD Discussion and I doubt there will be notably more to come, at least not in such a quick onslaught as it has been in 2014. Same goes for original fiction, which I believe should find a new home in the Telltale Talk.
The thing is, back when this move first happened, an advertisement thread like this one has been created by Blind, yet it did little to help. I know of no user who started to actually read the Forum Games stories thanks to that thread and while this very one might have a slightly larger response, I still am not hopeful that it will cause any sort of lasting improvement. At best, it will slow down the death of the Forum Games section. So, a promotion thread, while sounding like a neat idea on paper has previously proven to be unsuited to cause any true change to the stepmotherly treatment the stories in the Forum Games section receive. You know this better than most here, writing stuff is a lot of effort and requires passion, something that should be honoured. And yet, in the Forum Games section, half-jokingly called the Forum Graveyard for the abysmally low amount of traffic it receives, this is not the case and nothing can change about this as long as the stories have to remain in this section.
As I said in my post above, the main reason for the move has turned out to be born out of a miscalculation. I remember, the mod team and some users feared that having fan fiction threads in the general discussions of the respective franchises would have a negative impact on other threads. The Game of Thrones section proved this assumption wrong. There, it was allowed and as it turned out, even at its most active, fanfiction did not prevent discussion on the game or the show. Even now, take a look at the GoT section and see how many active stories you see there in comparison to general threads and that's coming from a section that receives significantly less new general threads when compared to sections of Telltale's active properties. As it turned out, the only effect fanfiction had on the GoT section was that it attracted some people who otherwise wouldn't have come here. No negatives there, not for the section in general, nor for the quality of the threads or the people who are not interested in fanfiction. In return, being in the GoT section has massively boosted these stories, as I can confirm.
So, I say why not give it a try? The currently existing active stories in the Forum Games section are probably less than a dozen, which is a generous statement that includes stories that haven't been active in over a month. Times back then demanded a drastic course of action, but times have changed. I was never a fan of that big, permanent mass moving, as it prevented and hindered a lot of creativity here in the forums, but maybe there can be a bit of a revival for fan fiction and original fiction here, with the content creators being allowed to have their threads in the way more visible Telltale Talk. They won't do any harm there.
Maybe, if against all odds things get out of control again, they can be temporarily contained in the Forum Games section again for a month or two, until the hype died down, after which those that are still active can be moved back to their respective sections. As someone who is certainly an active reader of all current stories and all to come, I'd be very happy to help you out there by informing you which ones are still active after a certain amount of time has passed. The problem is very much this permanent move, as the only lasting effect it had on the forums was that it slowly killed many stories affected by it.
So, that'd be my proposal, something I hope everyone can live with. If you and the rest of the team agrees, I can send you a list of all active or semi-active stories, you can move them to the Telltale Talk or the TWD section respectively and we can check if this truly has a positive effect on them. If it has and if other discussion is not harmed by it, I'd say there's no reason not to leave them in these more visible sections forever. No harm done after all. If, despite the heavy decline in activity in the Forum Games section and the well-working situation in the GoT section, it turns out that it will repeat the situation of June 2014, then they can temporarily be moved back to the Forum Games section for maybe about two months (which was as long as it took to kill the hype that surrounded this form of fan work back in 2014), after which those that have not been abandoned, meaning the ones with passionate and dedicated people behind it, can be moved to the more public sections again.
A discussion on this? Of course!
It is a bit of a shame that not as much of the stories here don't get attention. I agree that there is s… moreomething there worth addressing. How so? Well, let's get some ideas going. I see nothing wrong if a thread existed in Telltale Talk existed solely to promote the stuff that goes on there.
Anyway, I'm your friend guys, so lay some stuff on me and we'll see what we can do!
I know you're probably joking but if you're not. You have joined your fair share of these Mr. Forgetful. We even started together, our characters died together too.
Thank You for coming InGen. We appreciate it. Hopefully we can sort this out.
Ok, I might be going full revolutionary, but i ditto everything Liquid said. Forum Games is at the very least poorly maintained and obscure. Many of the stories inside it are hurt in readership because of its location. Maybe its time the interactive fiction community is finally allowed to return to and coexist with the other threads. The TWD Interfic's in the TWD thread and the Original interfics in Telltale Talk proper. Consider these points:
1) FOT and all its trend followers have proven that coexistence is positive and possible and that these kinds of threads will not over run the common discussion threads.
2) Regardless of the number of threads, most of them find it hard to update MONTHLY. I will TRY to make weekly updates, but even once
a week will make it impossible to 'fill' the thread with stories.
3) Forum Games is a thred that is not only hard to find, but even harder to explain. Whenever I tell someone about an interfic i immediately have to say 'its like forum of thrones'. And if they don't know what that is, then they won't get it. On top of that Immighthavebroken it has done the math and this thread is close to getting the same amount of views she took months to make. That is awful. Most stories in the thread get 3-4 readers max and i believe it is partly do to its obscurity and that of its content, which leads me directly to my next point.
4) So, your first natural thought is that the location has nothing to do with the readership. Most likely it would be that people didn't like the story and moved on. What on earth could make me think that readers aren't finding the stories at all? Well, one quick look at FG immediately shows that almost the majority of the threads are people asking or complaining about bugs or talking about the games. Nearly all of them have two or no comments. This means that these people did not know where they were and just assumed it was another thread, made a conversation and were probably sad nobody wanted to comment on it. By extension, its not hard to believe that many people are unaware of what FG even is. Worse, someone who just stumbles on it would be confused by its content, since again there are such a large number of random topics everywhere. Even if someone was fully aware of what it was they would have difficulty in finding the stories among all the other threads. Believe it or not while looking for other writers to join this thread, i made the mistake of confusing threads not once but three times. So we have both people looking for conversation making unknowingly pointless threads and also making it even more difficult to find the interactive stories in FG.
So in conclusion, restoring the old system would be the best solution in my opinion. It would help creators get higher readership and it would not affect the usual comment threads in a negative way. Forum Games should also be monitored to make sure 'non-game' threads do not overflow the actual 'game' threads And that is my two cents.
AD: At the very least I feel like there needs to be someway or someone to constantly mange Forum Games and make sure it doesn't get filled with people who are lost and think they are in another thread.
A discussion on this? Of course!
It is a bit of a shame that not as much of the stories here don't get attention. I agree that there is s… moreomething there worth addressing. How so? Well, let's get some ideas going. I see nothing wrong if a thread existed in Telltale Talk existed solely to promote the stuff that goes on there.
Anyway, I'm your friend guys, so lay some stuff on me and we'll see what we can do!
I can really only repeat what Liquid and lord have said, mainly because I really agree with them. First of all, thank you for acknowledging this thread and I am extremely thankful you've decided to hear us out.
I've been working on my latest story for over two months now and I'm not saying this because of my own quality, but I'm saying this because I've noticed there's been a lack in readers on my own story and multiple other ones residing in the Forum Games as well.
One of my biggest concerns with keeping threads in Forum Games is that it's really easy to get unfollowed from something and not see from it again. In fact, I had one of my readers tell me today that he didn't even know my own story had updated because it wasn't in his feed anymore. Some people forget to check the "Follow this discussion" box, myself included. If it wasn't my own story, I would have lost it far more than one time.
I did do the math, as Lord said, and I would be happy to share with you the math for my own story, but not the others without their writer's permission. I did the math for my own story, Prime, and Cryocoffin. I have noticed a trend in all of their patterns and it's a trend that's only going to continue by the lack of reads they each have. I compared the trends to that of this thread, which has already changed in gathering over 300 views today, rather than the expected 141 which not only makes my math wrong, but it gives the stories that I looked over a shorter time than I originally predicted before this thread catches up, and that's not even to mention how popular other threads are in the general section.
I can say for each writer present in the current moment and ones that decided against being part of this, we will not get in the way. Our update schedules follow trends as well and the voters usually vote within a day, then you won't see from that story from anywhere between a week or months after the final vote goes in. We'll stay out of the way and there will definitely be no need for a promotional thread if the stories are in their own respective thread. I mean, TWD fanfics are hardly active anymore and you still have Kenny vs Jane arguments and most of the threads are the same thing anyways. There's rarely updates in the section because the series is on break.
While on the topic, I can promise you that they will not get in the way when the series resumes because most writers are going to be playing the games themselves, they're not going to write in the midst of a release of a new episode, which is usually months apart.
I feel like I'm repeating, but I'm more than happy to address any questions you might have myself and give what information I can. Thanks again.
A discussion on this? Of course!
It is a bit of a shame that not as much of the stories here don't get attention. I agree that there is s… moreomething there worth addressing. How so? Well, let's get some ideas going. I see nothing wrong if a thread existed in Telltale Talk existed solely to promote the stuff that goes on there.
Anyway, I'm your friend guys, so lay some stuff on me and we'll see what we can do!
That was a dark time. It was full of fear and hatred and it only caused more fear and more hatred. Its really awful and sad that you tried to make something enjoyable to share with people and then it got such horrible and unnecessary treatment. And look at what it lead to, the open field to the horrible Jane/Kenny war. I bet a story like yours would have provided a refreshing and positive space compared to all that bs. I don't know how this will turn out, but if you ever make another well try to support you. Were a small community, but were strong when we band together .
I was born as a fanfic writer right at the end of what you call the Golden Age of FanFic. I had made a Walking Dead fanfic when it was still… more popular and everybody got mad at me for it, because it was when the forums were being flooded and then the Forum Games section went up the very next day. I got screwed by it.
That was a dark time. It was full of fear and hatred and it only caused more fear and more hatred. Its really awful and sad that you tried t… moreo make something enjoyable to share with people and then it got such horrible and unnecessary treatment. And look at what it lead to, the open field to the horrible Jane/Kenny war. I bet a story like yours would have provided a refreshing and positive space compared to all that bs. I don't know how this will turn out, but if you ever make another well try to support you. Were a small community, but were strong when we band together .
I would be happy to share with you the math for my own story, but not the others without their writer's permission.
You hereby have my full permission to share your data from Prime with Ingen and the other mods. If it will help you guys, I'm willing to do it.
and ones that decided against being part of this.
At least one of the writers decided to be against this? That is very odd to me. I hope they had a good reason. Oh, well hopefully they'll at least appreciate what we did if it succeeds.
I can really only repeat what Liquid and lord have said, mainly because I really agree with them. First of all, thank you for acknowledging … morethis thread and I am extremely thankful you've decided to hear us out.
I've been working on my latest story for over two months now and I'm not saying this because of my own quality, but I'm saying this because I've noticed there's been a lack in readers on my own story and multiple other ones residing in the Forum Games as well.
One of my biggest concerns with keeping threads in Forum Games is that it's really easy to get unfollowed from something and not see from it again. In fact, I had one of my readers tell me today that he didn't even know my own story had updated because it wasn't in his feed anymore. Some people forget to check the "Follow this discussion" box, myself included. If it wasn't my own story, I would have lost it far more than one time.
I did do the math, as Lord said, and I w… [view original content]
I would be happy to share with you the math for my own story, but not the others without their writer's permission.
You hereby have my fu… morell permission to share your data from Prime with Ingen and the other mods. If it will help you guys, I'm willing to do it.
and ones that decided against being part of this.
At least one of the writers decided to be against this? That is very odd to me. I hope they had a good reason. Oh, well hopefully they'll at least appreciate what we did if it succeeds.
And we'll support you with that. I will, anyways, in any way I can.
I planned to do some reading this weekend and I'll be happy to join your voter's group when I'm caught up.
I might join as a reader too. Currently that might prove tricky since I'm juggling assignments and free time a lot but ill manage. Also it might take sometime because i promised Broken i would read Voyagers first, but once that's done i will go on to yours as soon as i can.
You hereby have my full permission to share your data from Prime with Ingen and the other mods. If it will help you guys, I'm willing to do … moreit.
Thank you, I'll keep note of what I've gotten from Prime then.
I hope they had a good reason. Oh, well hopefully they'll at least appreciate what we did if it succeeds.
They had a very good reason to stay out of it and I respect their decision, just as they respect the one we've made to be here.
I still remember the Golden Age of interactive fanfictions. Of course, it could be a little annoying having them all over the front page but at least there were creative people who brightened these forums with their talented stories, instead of all this shitstorm. My fanfic managed to get its audience and become popular before moving to Forum Games, so it wasn't too much of a problem for me but it was still pretty unpleasant. It's probably the major reason why all fanfics nowadays are really underrated (except Forum of Thrones but it's the only thread that keeps the GOT section alive).
I gotta admit, I barely read any interactive fanfictions since 2014 which is a big shame. It's more of a past for me now... Thanks for making this thread. Perhaps it'll bring more spotlight to those who deserve it.
I'm happy you were there, it was a good time. I'm sad to see more people affected by the move though. Hopefully stories can shine again in the forum. I know you it was more of a 'past' for you know, but if you ever want to join any of these, you're welcome to. I'm sure the others would welcome you with open arms. But if not, thank you for your support, we appreciate it .
I still remember the Golden Age of interactive fanfictions. Of course, it could be a little annoying having them all over the front page but… more at least there were creative people who brightened these forums with their talented stories, instead of all this shitstorm. My fanfic managed to get its audience and become popular before moving to Forum Games, so it wasn't too much of a problem for me but it was still pretty unpleasant. It's probably the major reason why all fanfics nowadays are really underrated (except Forum of Thrones but it's the only thread that keeps the GOT section alive).
I gotta admit, I barely read any interactive fanfictions since 2014 which is a big shame. It's more of a past for me now... Thanks for making this thread. Perhaps it'll bring more spotlight to those who deserve it.
In fact, I had one of my readers tell me today that he didn't even know my own story had updated because it wasn't in his feed anymore. Some people forget to check the "Follow this discussion" box, myself included. If it wasn't my own story, I would have lost it far more than one time.
Yeah, that's something I can't really do anything about. Just got to be careful I guess.
I'll look over the rest as I do stuff about this with the other mods.
I can really only repeat what Liquid and lord have said, mainly because I really agree with them. First of all, thank you for acknowledging … morethis thread and I am extremely thankful you've decided to hear us out.
I've been working on my latest story for over two months now and I'm not saying this because of my own quality, but I'm saying this because I've noticed there's been a lack in readers on my own story and multiple other ones residing in the Forum Games as well.
One of my biggest concerns with keeping threads in Forum Games is that it's really easy to get unfollowed from something and not see from it again. In fact, I had one of my readers tell me today that he didn't even know my own story had updated because it wasn't in his feed anymore. Some people forget to check the "Follow this discussion" box, myself included. If it wasn't my own story, I would have lost it far more than one time.
I did do the math, as Lord said, and I w… [view original content]
1) FOT and all its trend followers have proven that coexistence is positive and possible and that these kinds of threads will not over run the common discussion threads.
2) Regardless of the number of threads, most of them find it hard to update MONTHLY. I will TRY to make weekly updates, but even once
a week will make it impossible to 'fill' the thread with stories.
3) Forum Games is a thred that is not only hard to find, but even harder to explain. Whenever I tell someone about an interfic i immediately have to say 'its like forum of thrones'. And if they don't know what that is, then they won't get it. On top of that Immighthavebroken it has done the math and this thread is close to getting the same amount of views she took months to make. That is awful. Most stories in the thread get 3-4 readers max and i believe it is partly do to its obscurity and that of its content, which leads me directly to my next point.
Thank You for coming InGen. We appreciate it. Hopefully we can sort this out.
Ok, I might be going full revolutionary, but i ditto everyt… morehing Liquid said. Forum Games is at the very least poorly maintained and obscure. Many of the stories inside it are hurt in readership because of its location. Maybe its time the interactive fiction community is finally allowed to return to and coexist with the other threads. The TWD Interfic's in the TWD thread and the Original interfics in Telltale Talk proper. Consider these points:
1) FOT and all its trend followers have proven that coexistence is positive and possible and that these kinds of threads will not over run the common discussion threads.
2) Regardless of the number of threads, most of them find it hard to update MONTHLY. I will TRY to make weekly updates, but even once
a week will make it impossible to 'fill' the thread with stories.
3) Forum Games is a thred that is not only hard… [view original content]
Certainly the situation now is different from there, so perhaps a change would work. There doesn't seem to be much of a problem that would happen. If you could provide an exact list of active stories and the respective sections they would go in, that'd be real helpful in my assessment.
First of all, thank you very much for taking the time to discuss this! Even just a talk about the situation is a good thing, because one thi… moreng is for sure, things are terrible the way they are right now in the Forum Games section.
Well, coming to ideas, I really don't see much harm in allowing stories to be placed in the respective sections again and not in the Forum Games. It works well with GoT fanfiction in the general discussion, so I think it could be worth trying to have them in the TWD section and in the general Telltale Talk as well. They have been allowed there before, when I first became a forum regular in Summer 2014, but since everyone wanted to make one for a very limited amount of time, the previously completely dead Forum Games section was resurrected to contain them. Before this occasion, the Forum Games section has been housed only true forum games, most of it pretty low effort content. Things have changed since then, the … [view original content]
Ah, thank you so much, this is amazing! I'll have to contact two writers before sending you that list, to ask them if they would be okay with being moved, as I know there is at least one writer who did not wish to receive the promotion here in the thread for good reason, maybe he similarly doesn't want to be in a more crowded section in general. Other than that, I'll send you that list in a PM tomorrow, after contacting those I am not sure about. But after having done a quick count just now, the list in total will probably range somewhere between 8 and 11, which also includes stories who are only active about once a month.
Certainly the situation now is different from there, so perhaps a change would work. There doesn't seem to be much of a problem that would h… moreappen. If you could provide an exact list of active stories and the respective sections they would go in, that'd be real helpful in my assessment.
Thanks.
Hey guys! I just wanted to give a quick message. I think that you guys will find eventually - perhaps sooner than later - some of your concerns with the prominence/organization of the Forum Games section will be resolved.
When that time comes, we mods are happy to revisit the issue of Forum Games/Fan Fiction and work out something with you guys. It's really neat to see the level of passion, and the effort you guys put into articulating these problems is appreciated as it shows you guys care. Later on, as I said, we can revisit the issue and see how things work out soon enough. Thanks for explaining the issue.
Hey guys, just wanted to drop by again - do you guys find that the "Interactive Stories" tag and the separated Forum Games section help with bringing more attention to Interactive Stories?
Hey guys, just wanted to drop by again - do you guys find that the "Interactive Stories" tag and the separated Forum Games section help with bringing more attention to Interactive Stories?
I feared this, to the point i which i didn't want to comment in this thread because i convinced myself i was wrong. I, personally, am very disappointed this was the result of our efforts. It is quite simply not enough.
I don't like making bets normally, but i feel very confident in saying that this will change nothing. I believe, most people will ignore the tag system completely. Even if they don't i highly doubt any of them know what an interactive story is, again i had to EXPLAIN IT to people, several who didn't end up understanding it at all.
I believe this was an awful choice and frankly disappointing for a community that showed its passion so heavily. One that already has begun to show its failure, as the 'interactive story' tag, which used to be the top 2nd on the list, is now the 4th and i have little doubt it will decline heavily by the time a new episode is released.
Hey guys, just wanted to drop by again - do you guys find that the "Interactive Stories" tag and the separated Forum Games section help with bringing more attention to Interactive Stories?
I feared this, to the point i which i didn't want to comment in this thread because i convinced myself i was wrong. I, personally, am very d… moreisappointed this was the result of our efforts. It is quite simply not enough.
I don't like making bets normally, but i feel very confident in saying that this will change nothing. I believe, most people will ignore the tag system completely. Even if they don't i highly doubt any of them know what an interactive story is, again i had to EXPLAIN IT to people, several who didn't end up understanding it at all.
I believe this was an awful choice and frankly disappointing for a community that showed its passion so heavily. One that already has begun to show its failure, as the 'interactive story' tag, which used to be the top 2nd on the list, is now the 4th and i have little doubt it will decline heavily by the time a new episode is released.
Again, thank you for listening. Perhaps that would help, but i would feel more comfortable if it was a decision i didn't make alone. So lets make sure that the others agree to that as well first.
I mean at this point it doesn’t really matter to me for multiple reasons and I mean no offense when I say that, I’m super grateful for what’s already been done.
My only thing is that some things in interactive stories couldn’t be considered fan fiction because there is no Telltale resource material that’s posing as the foundation for the story. There might be elements of a Telltale game in it but because it’s not based on a game made by Telltale, it’s technically not considered fan fiction.
TeamKenny’s Hunger Games story could definitely be an exception and the two or three active Walking Dead stories could also be moved to fan fiction.
Again, thank you for listening. Perhaps that would help, but i would feel more comfortable if it was a decision i didn't make alone. So lets… more make sure that the others agree to that as well first.
@LiquidChicagoTed
@imighthavebrokenit
@InGen_Nate_Kenny
@TeamKennyW00T
@Arrodor
How do you guys feel about this situation and do you think Blinds suggestion would help improve things? If not do you have alternatives?
Hm, I really don't think this is going to help. In fact, that'd make the tag kinda misleading even, because several works there are actually not fan fiction, but original work. As a matter of fact, out of the four stories advertised in the main post of this thread, only one counts as fan fiction and even that one is not revolving around one of Telltale's properties. So, I do like the interactive story tag and prefer it over fan fiction, as that term actually can have a more negative vibe to it for quite a number of people. And well, splitting the tag would be the worst idea, because that would split the attention and have it drowned beneath notably larger tags. We'd have like 10 interactive works here that count as original stories and 20 that count as fanfiction, I think Interactive Story is a perfect way to describe them both and I wouldn't change anything about them.
I must admit, I do like the tag system, it's a good way to see every interactive story I follow at once, however, I am not sure if it will cause any lasting change. Might be a bit too early to tell, though I am afraid I agree with Lord's more pessimistic outlook on the situation. The new layout is particularly to blame here, it makes it way harder for individual threads to get any attention, even if it is a nice touch that the Forum Games section is now on the main page of the forums. Of course, the new layout might be better discussed at the update thread and has been criticized before, but I feel like it causes little reason for people to enter sub-forums they are not frequenting and without wanting to get into a discussion about the layout, that is very much the reason why the situation for interactive stories here has not gotten much better, if at all. The Forum Games section is frequented by nearly no one and I am sure this has not changed now, with it still being at the bottom of the forums, so to say, and having far and above the most unappealing icon I can imagine. From my own experience, I can say that views on my thread have notably decreased and that comes from one that is in the Game of Thrones section, which is thriving with activity when compared to the Forum Games section. I would not be surprised if things are even worse over there.
Don't get me wrong, you guys really tried to find another solution and I respect and appreciate that. The Tag system is a nice touch and I wouldn't consider it completely ineffective just yet, even if there hasn't been any sign of improvement so far. I just don't think that much can be done over this system alone and that the only working solution remains the one I brought up in the beginning. If anything, I think the possible advantages of your attempt are cancelled out by the disadvantages the new layout holds when it comes to put attention onto certain aspects of the community and the downright dramatic decrease in views even threads in semi-active sections have suffered serves as proof to this.
In the long run, I still think that if you truly want to find a way to give these stories the spotlight they deserve, accepting them alongside the other threads in the Telltale Talk and TWD general discussion is the only way this can truly be achieved. In fact, wouldn't that be one of the things possible with the new layout? You told me in the update thread that moderating stuff has gotten notably easier now and that you might even go as far as to allow shipping threads again. I repeat, you at least consider shipping threads, so why not fanfiction? If they get a pass, wouldn't it be possible for these interactive stories that, again, people put an insane amount of work into, to be featured alongside the threads in the respective frequently visited sections? At this point, I am convinced such a solution is the only way to prevent interactive stories on here from dying out entirely. And well, it's not as if you have to fear much additional work when it comes to your mod duties, these threads are rarely active compared to most and downright devoid of hostile arguments or spam that might require your attention.
Well, I think it could be called Interactive Fan Fiction. The problem there is that there are some stories which aren't actually fan fiction which the term interactive stories really does apply too. And since there is a sort of bad vibe around the concept of fan fiction (unjust, but there is) I think being called fan fiction might drive away certain people who actually would read stories that were original. So maybe if it was called "Interactive Stories and Fan Fiction," it might appeal to both crowds. Plus, it would be bigger, and maybe people would spot it easier.
Thanks for trying to help though. But honestly I think this would have been so much easier before the site update.
Again, thank you for listening. Perhaps that would help, but i would feel more comfortable if it was a decision i didn't make alone. So lets… more make sure that the others agree to that as well first.
@LiquidChicagoTed
@imighthavebrokenit
@InGen_Nate_Kenny
@TeamKennyW00T
@Arrodor
How do you guys feel about this situation and do you think Blinds suggestion would help improve things? If not do you have alternatives?
You know, @Blind Sniper, you can delete this comment if you want but I really have something I need to get off my chest.
I have tried to remain optimistic about this update and keep quiet about this issue, not only because you’ve done what you can but because I know that I can’t change anything and the mods can only relay the message, but I can say with certainty that I have never been more disappointed.
I am extremely upset with how things have turned out and I know there’s nothing you can do about it and I just need to shut the hell up and deal with it, but I must admit that I’m extremely discouraged from continuing writing anymore because of the inconvenience this has placed on the writers themselves. I know the new update makes modding easier and that’s so awesome, I’m happy for you and the other mods.
I’ve seen the same thing posted in general thread where even normal posters have said that it discourages them from being involved with the forums.
I’ll say the same thing I said to Lord but with a little twist. I started my current story because I figured it would be good for me to do something with my time and I actually came to enjoy writing again after a number of years without even bringing closure to any of my former stories. Pretty cool, I met some people, had some fun. Now I am beyond discouraged to write my own story, let alone read others.
Sure, the tag makes finding interactive stories easier (if you even check the tags), there’s no doubt about that, but now we’re stuck in a position without a main post, which many others and myself used as a base, like it was supposed to be used. We’re stuck with missing notifications or risking something being spoiled because somebody clicked a notification from the writer because they thought it was an update but it’s a response to a choice, but nothing can move you if you see it coming.
I know it seems like I’m being unfair and I probably am being unfair and needlessly aggressive, but I’m quite upset with the results we’ve gotten, thankful for the effort you and the other mods have put it regardless, though.
I haven't thought about things from that perspective, but must admit, I really like it! I was fine with Interactive Story, but "Make Your Own Story" sounds better for me. On top of that, it deals with the issue Lord_EAA brought up, that there are people who don't know what an Interactive Story is just by the term alone. Make Your Own Story, that explains it pretty well, with the whole thing kinda influenced by these Make Your Own Adventure books we (probably) all had as a child. So, while I am not sure if it will help all that much, due to there really only being so much the tag system can do, I'd say it is at least a good idea worth giving a try
If liquid can agree then so can i..........................a month later............Sorry lot of stuff has happened lately. Also i didn't get notified. Regardless i agree and I'm happy we reached this conclusion.
Also YOU READ THOSE TOO!! I thought i was one of the few people in the world who did. Did you ever read Fighting Fantasy o the Lone wolf series?
Comments
Thanks Liquid for writing all this out. It really hits the nail on the head, and coming from you as you are probably one of the most well-versed users in forum fiction here.
Also, if you're making that list, could you add my fic to it, even though I haven't updated in over a month? I just came back.
I was born as a fanfic writer right at the end of what you call the Golden Age of FanFic. I had made a Walking Dead fanfic when it was still popular and everybody got mad at me for it, because it was when the forums were being flooded and then the Forum Games section went up the very next day. I got screwed by it.
First of all, thank you very much for taking the time to discuss this! Even just a talk about the situation is a good thing, because one thing is for sure, things are terrible the way they are right now in the Forum Games section.
Well, coming to ideas, I really don't see much harm in allowing stories to be placed in the respective sections again and not in the Forum Games. It works well with GoT fanfiction in the general discussion, so I think it could be worth trying to have them in the TWD section and in the general Telltale Talk as well. They have been allowed there before, when I first became a forum regular in Summer 2014, but since everyone wanted to make one for a very limited amount of time, the previously completely dead Forum Games section was resurrected to contain them. Before this occasion, the Forum Games section has been housed only true forum games, most of it pretty low effort content. Things have changed since then, the forums have changed, the users and the general style of moderation and now there are only very few active TWD fanfictions left. They won't do much harm in the General TWD Discussion and I doubt there will be notably more to come, at least not in such a quick onslaught as it has been in 2014. Same goes for original fiction, which I believe should find a new home in the Telltale Talk.
The thing is, back when this move first happened, an advertisement thread like this one has been created by Blind, yet it did little to help. I know of no user who started to actually read the Forum Games stories thanks to that thread and while this very one might have a slightly larger response, I still am not hopeful that it will cause any sort of lasting improvement. At best, it will slow down the death of the Forum Games section. So, a promotion thread, while sounding like a neat idea on paper has previously proven to be unsuited to cause any true change to the stepmotherly treatment the stories in the Forum Games section receive. You know this better than most here, writing stuff is a lot of effort and requires passion, something that should be honoured. And yet, in the Forum Games section, half-jokingly called the Forum Graveyard for the abysmally low amount of traffic it receives, this is not the case and nothing can change about this as long as the stories have to remain in this section.
As I said in my post above, the main reason for the move has turned out to be born out of a miscalculation. I remember, the mod team and some users feared that having fan fiction threads in the general discussions of the respective franchises would have a negative impact on other threads. The Game of Thrones section proved this assumption wrong. There, it was allowed and as it turned out, even at its most active, fanfiction did not prevent discussion on the game or the show. Even now, take a look at the GoT section and see how many active stories you see there in comparison to general threads and that's coming from a section that receives significantly less new general threads when compared to sections of Telltale's active properties. As it turned out, the only effect fanfiction had on the GoT section was that it attracted some people who otherwise wouldn't have come here. No negatives there, not for the section in general, nor for the quality of the threads or the people who are not interested in fanfiction. In return, being in the GoT section has massively boosted these stories, as I can confirm.
So, I say why not give it a try? The currently existing active stories in the Forum Games section are probably less than a dozen, which is a generous statement that includes stories that haven't been active in over a month. Times back then demanded a drastic course of action, but times have changed. I was never a fan of that big, permanent mass moving, as it prevented and hindered a lot of creativity here in the forums, but maybe there can be a bit of a revival for fan fiction and original fiction here, with the content creators being allowed to have their threads in the way more visible Telltale Talk. They won't do any harm there.
Maybe, if against all odds things get out of control again, they can be temporarily contained in the Forum Games section again for a month or two, until the hype died down, after which those that are still active can be moved back to their respective sections. As someone who is certainly an active reader of all current stories and all to come, I'd be very happy to help you out there by informing you which ones are still active after a certain amount of time has passed. The problem is very much this permanent move, as the only lasting effect it had on the forums was that it slowly killed many stories affected by it.
So, that'd be my proposal, something I hope everyone can live with. If you and the rest of the team agrees, I can send you a list of all active or semi-active stories, you can move them to the Telltale Talk or the TWD section respectively and we can check if this truly has a positive effect on them. If it has and if other discussion is not harmed by it, I'd say there's no reason not to leave them in these more visible sections forever. No harm done after all. If, despite the heavy decline in activity in the Forum Games section and the well-working situation in the GoT section, it turns out that it will repeat the situation of June 2014, then they can temporarily be moved back to the Forum Games section for maybe about two months (which was as long as it took to kill the hype that surrounded this form of fan work back in 2014), after which those that have not been abandoned, meaning the ones with passionate and dedicated people behind it, can be moved to the more public sections again.
So... what do you say?
I know fam.
Thank You for coming InGen. We appreciate it. Hopefully we can sort this out.
Ok, I might be going full revolutionary, but i ditto everything Liquid said. Forum Games is at the very least poorly maintained and obscure. Many of the stories inside it are hurt in readership because of its location. Maybe its time the interactive fiction community is finally allowed to return to and coexist with the other threads. The TWD Interfic's in the TWD thread and the Original interfics in Telltale Talk proper. Consider these points:
1) FOT and all its trend followers have proven that coexistence is positive and possible and that these kinds of threads will not over run the common discussion threads.
2) Regardless of the number of threads, most of them find it hard to update MONTHLY. I will TRY to make weekly updates, but even once
a week will make it impossible to 'fill' the thread with stories.
3) Forum Games is a thred that is not only hard to find, but even harder to explain. Whenever I tell someone about an interfic i immediately have to say 'its like forum of thrones'. And if they don't know what that is, then they won't get it. On top of that Immighthavebroken it has done the math and this thread is close to getting the same amount of views she took months to make. That is awful. Most stories in the thread get 3-4 readers max and i believe it is partly do to its obscurity and that of its content, which leads me directly to my next point.
4) So, your first natural thought is that the location has nothing to do with the readership. Most likely it would be that people didn't like the story and moved on. What on earth could make me think that readers aren't finding the stories at all? Well, one quick look at FG immediately shows that almost the majority of the threads are people asking or complaining about bugs or talking about the games. Nearly all of them have two or no comments. This means that these people did not know where they were and just assumed it was another thread, made a conversation and were probably sad nobody wanted to comment on it. By extension, its not hard to believe that many people are unaware of what FG even is. Worse, someone who just stumbles on it would be confused by its content, since again there are such a large number of random topics everywhere. Even if someone was fully aware of what it was they would have difficulty in finding the stories among all the other threads. Believe it or not while looking for other writers to join this thread, i made the mistake of confusing threads not once but three times. So we have both people looking for conversation making unknowingly pointless threads and also making it even more difficult to find the interactive stories in FG.
So in conclusion, restoring the old system would be the best solution in my opinion. It would help creators get higher readership and it would not affect the usual comment threads in a negative way. Forum Games should also be monitored to make sure 'non-game' threads do not overflow the actual 'game' threads And that is my two cents.
AD: At the very least I feel like there needs to be someway or someone to constantly mange Forum Games and make sure it doesn't get filled with people who are lost and think they are in another thread.
I can really only repeat what Liquid and lord have said, mainly because I really agree with them. First of all, thank you for acknowledging this thread and I am extremely thankful you've decided to hear us out.
I've been working on my latest story for over two months now and I'm not saying this because of my own quality, but I'm saying this because I've noticed there's been a lack in readers on my own story and multiple other ones residing in the Forum Games as well.
One of my biggest concerns with keeping threads in Forum Games is that it's really easy to get unfollowed from something and not see from it again. In fact, I had one of my readers tell me today that he didn't even know my own story had updated because it wasn't in his feed anymore. Some people forget to check the "Follow this discussion" box, myself included. If it wasn't my own story, I would have lost it far more than one time.
I did do the math, as Lord said, and I would be happy to share with you the math for my own story, but not the others without their writer's permission. I did the math for my own story, Prime, and Cryocoffin. I have noticed a trend in all of their patterns and it's a trend that's only going to continue by the lack of reads they each have. I compared the trends to that of this thread, which has already changed in gathering over 300 views today, rather than the expected 141 which not only makes my math wrong, but it gives the stories that I looked over a shorter time than I originally predicted before this thread catches up, and that's not even to mention how popular other threads are in the general section.
I can say for each writer present in the current moment and ones that decided against being part of this, we will not get in the way. Our update schedules follow trends as well and the voters usually vote within a day, then you won't see from that story from anywhere between a week or months after the final vote goes in. We'll stay out of the way and there will definitely be no need for a promotional thread if the stories are in their own respective thread. I mean, TWD fanfics are hardly active anymore and you still have Kenny vs Jane arguments and most of the threads are the same thing anyways. There's rarely updates in the section because the series is on break.
While on the topic, I can promise you that they will not get in the way when the series resumes because most writers are going to be playing the games themselves, they're not going to write in the midst of a release of a new episode, which is usually months apart.
I feel like I'm repeating, but I'm more than happy to address any questions you might have myself and give what information I can. Thanks again.
Then come along and support us brother. Who knows maybe you'll enjoy one of these stories
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That was a dark time. It was full of fear and hatred and it only caused more fear and more hatred. Its really awful and sad that you tried to make something enjoyable to share with people and then it got such horrible and unnecessary treatment. And look at what it lead to, the open field to the horrible Jane/Kenny war. I bet a story like yours would have provided a refreshing and positive space compared to all that bs. I don't know how this will turn out, but if you ever make another well try to support you. Were a small community, but were strong when we band together
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Well I do have that ongoing Hunger Games story. It's submissions are closed but I'd like to think it's still worth reading for the voting.
And we'll support you with that. I will, anyways, in any way I can.
I planned to do some reading this weekend and I'll be happy to join your voter's group when I'm caught up.
I would be happy to share with you the math for my own story, but not the others without their writer's permission.
You hereby have my full permission to share your data from Prime with Ingen and the other mods. If it will help you guys, I'm willing to do it.
and ones that decided against being part of this.
At least one of the writers decided to be against this? That is very odd to me. I hope they had a good reason. Oh, well hopefully they'll at least appreciate what we did if it succeeds.
Thank you, I'll keep note of what I've gotten from Prime then.
They had a very good reason to stay out of it and I respect their decision, just as they respect the one we've made to be here.
That would be great! Thanks!
I might join as a reader too. Currently that might prove tricky since I'm juggling assignments and free time a lot but ill manage. Also it might take sometime because i promised Broken i would read Voyagers first, but once that's done i will go on to yours as soon as i can.
Thank you, I'll keep note of what I've gotten from Prime then.
Good, i hope its juicy mind-blowing stuff, like that evidence they always have in tv and movies that just automatically wins the case.
They had a very good reason to stay out of it and I respect their decision, just as they respect the one we've made to be here
Then i trust you on this and respect them and their decision as well. With luck they will reap the benefits of this anyway.
I still remember the Golden Age of interactive fanfictions. Of course, it could be a little annoying having them all over the front page but at least there were creative people who brightened these forums with their talented stories, instead of all this shitstorm. My fanfic managed to get its audience and become popular before moving to Forum Games, so it wasn't too much of a problem for me but it was still pretty unpleasant. It's probably the major reason why all fanfics nowadays are really underrated (except Forum of Thrones but it's the only thread that keeps the GOT section alive).
I gotta admit, I barely read any interactive fanfictions since 2014 which is a big shame. It's more of a past for me now... Thanks for making this thread. Perhaps it'll bring more spotlight to those who deserve it.
I'm happy you were there, it was a good time. I'm sad to see more people affected by the move though. Hopefully stories can shine again in the forum. I know you it was more of a 'past' for you know, but if you ever want to join any of these, you're welcome to. I'm sure the others would welcome you with open arms. But if not, thank you for your support, we appreciate it
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Yeah, that's something I can't really do anything about. Just got to be careful I guess.
I'll look over the rest as I do stuff about this with the other mods.
a week will make it impossible to 'fill' the thread with stories.
This is all true. It's a shame. Good points.
I'll bring up this with the other mods and such.
Certainly the situation now is different from there, so perhaps a change would work. There doesn't seem to be much of a problem that would happen. If you could provide an exact list of active stories and the respective sections they would go in, that'd be real helpful in my assessment.
Thanks.
Ah, thank you so much, this is amazing! I'll have to contact two writers before sending you that list, to ask them if they would be okay with being moved, as I know there is at least one writer who did not wish to receive the promotion here in the thread for good reason, maybe he similarly doesn't want to be in a more crowded section in general. Other than that, I'll send you that list in a PM tomorrow, after contacting those I am not sure about. But after having done a quick count just now, the list in total will probably range somewhere between 8 and 11, which also includes stories who are only active about once a month.
Hey guys! I just wanted to give a quick message. I think that you guys will find eventually - perhaps sooner than later - some of your concerns with the prominence/organization of the Forum Games section will be resolved.
When that time comes, we mods are happy to revisit the issue of Forum Games/Fan Fiction and work out something with you guys. It's really neat to see the level of passion, and the effort you guys put into articulating these problems is appreciated as it shows you guys care. Later on, as I said, we can revisit the issue and see how things work out soon enough. Thanks for explaining the issue.
Hey guys, just wanted to drop by again - do you guys find that the "Interactive Stories" tag and the separated Forum Games section help with bringing more attention to Interactive Stories?
It’s good to hear back from you, however, I can’t say it really helped. I’m sure it helped some story but I’m not sure which one.
You guys did what you could as moderators for us and we're grateful for that.
I feared this, to the point i which i didn't want to comment in this thread because i convinced myself i was wrong. I, personally, am very disappointed this was the result of our efforts. It is quite simply not enough.
I don't like making bets normally, but i feel very confident in saying that this will change nothing. I believe, most people will ignore the tag system completely. Even if they don't i highly doubt any of them know what an interactive story is, again i had to EXPLAIN IT to people, several who didn't end up understanding it at all.
I believe this was an awful choice and frankly disappointing for a community that showed its passion so heavily. One that already has begun to show its failure, as the 'interactive story' tag, which used to be the top 2nd on the list, is now the 4th and i have little doubt it will decline heavily by the time a new episode is released.
Would you want the tag updated to "Interactive Fan Fiction"?
Again, thank you for listening. Perhaps that would help, but i would feel more comfortable if it was a decision i didn't make alone. So lets make sure that the others agree to that as well first.
@LiquidChicagoTed
@imighthavebrokenit
@InGen_Nate_Kenny
@TeamKennyW00T
@Arrodor
How do you guys feel about this situation and do you think Blinds suggestion would help improve things? If not do you have alternatives?
I mean at this point it doesn’t really matter to me for multiple reasons and I mean no offense when I say that, I’m super grateful for what’s already been done.
My only thing is that some things in interactive stories couldn’t be considered fan fiction because there is no Telltale resource material that’s posing as the foundation for the story. There might be elements of a Telltale game in it but because it’s not based on a game made by Telltale, it’s technically not considered fan fiction.
TeamKenny’s Hunger Games story could definitely be an exception and the two or three active Walking Dead stories could also be moved to fan fiction.
Hm, I really don't think this is going to help. In fact, that'd make the tag kinda misleading even, because several works there are actually not fan fiction, but original work. As a matter of fact, out of the four stories advertised in the main post of this thread, only one counts as fan fiction and even that one is not revolving around one of Telltale's properties. So, I do like the interactive story tag and prefer it over fan fiction, as that term actually can have a more negative vibe to it for quite a number of people. And well, splitting the tag would be the worst idea, because that would split the attention and have it drowned beneath notably larger tags. We'd have like 10 interactive works here that count as original stories and 20 that count as fanfiction, I think Interactive Story is a perfect way to describe them both and I wouldn't change anything about them.
I must admit, I do like the tag system, it's a good way to see every interactive story I follow at once, however, I am not sure if it will cause any lasting change. Might be a bit too early to tell, though I am afraid I agree with Lord's more pessimistic outlook on the situation. The new layout is particularly to blame here, it makes it way harder for individual threads to get any attention, even if it is a nice touch that the Forum Games section is now on the main page of the forums. Of course, the new layout might be better discussed at the update thread and has been criticized before, but I feel like it causes little reason for people to enter sub-forums they are not frequenting and without wanting to get into a discussion about the layout, that is very much the reason why the situation for interactive stories here has not gotten much better, if at all. The Forum Games section is frequented by nearly no one and I am sure this has not changed now, with it still being at the bottom of the forums, so to say, and having far and above the most unappealing icon I can imagine. From my own experience, I can say that views on my thread have notably decreased and that comes from one that is in the Game of Thrones section, which is thriving with activity when compared to the Forum Games section. I would not be surprised if things are even worse over there.
Don't get me wrong, you guys really tried to find another solution and I respect and appreciate that. The Tag system is a nice touch and I wouldn't consider it completely ineffective just yet, even if there hasn't been any sign of improvement so far. I just don't think that much can be done over this system alone and that the only working solution remains the one I brought up in the beginning. If anything, I think the possible advantages of your attempt are cancelled out by the disadvantages the new layout holds when it comes to put attention onto certain aspects of the community and the downright dramatic decrease in views even threads in semi-active sections have suffered serves as proof to this.
In the long run, I still think that if you truly want to find a way to give these stories the spotlight they deserve, accepting them alongside the other threads in the Telltale Talk and TWD general discussion is the only way this can truly be achieved. In fact, wouldn't that be one of the things possible with the new layout? You told me in the update thread that moderating stuff has gotten notably easier now and that you might even go as far as to allow shipping threads again. I repeat, you at least consider shipping threads, so why not fanfiction? If they get a pass, wouldn't it be possible for these interactive stories that, again, people put an insane amount of work into, to be featured alongside the threads in the respective frequently visited sections? At this point, I am convinced such a solution is the only way to prevent interactive stories on here from dying out entirely. And well, it's not as if you have to fear much additional work when it comes to your mod duties, these threads are rarely active compared to most and downright devoid of hostile arguments or spam that might require your attention.
Well, I think it could be called Interactive Fan Fiction. The problem there is that there are some stories which aren't actually fan fiction which the term interactive stories really does apply too. And since there is a sort of bad vibe around the concept of fan fiction (unjust, but there is) I think being called fan fiction might drive away certain people who actually would read stories that were original. So maybe if it was called "Interactive Stories and Fan Fiction," it might appeal to both crowds. Plus, it would be bigger, and maybe people would spot it easier.
Thanks for trying to help though. But honestly I think this would have been so much easier before the site update.
You know, @Blind Sniper, you can delete this comment if you want but I really have something I need to get off my chest.
I have tried to remain optimistic about this update and keep quiet about this issue, not only because you’ve done what you can but because I know that I can’t change anything and the mods can only relay the message, but I can say with certainty that I have never been more disappointed.
I am extremely upset with how things have turned out and I know there’s nothing you can do about it and I just need to shut the hell up and deal with it, but I must admit that I’m extremely discouraged from continuing writing anymore because of the inconvenience this has placed on the writers themselves. I know the new update makes modding easier and that’s so awesome, I’m happy for you and the other mods.
I’ve seen the same thing posted in general thread where even normal posters have said that it discourages them from being involved with the forums.
I’ll say the same thing I said to Lord but with a little twist. I started my current story because I figured it would be good for me to do something with my time and I actually came to enjoy writing again after a number of years without even bringing closure to any of my former stories. Pretty cool, I met some people, had some fun. Now I am beyond discouraged to write my own story, let alone read others.
Sure, the tag makes finding interactive stories easier (if you even check the tags), there’s no doubt about that, but now we’re stuck in a position without a main post, which many others and myself used as a base, like it was supposed to be used. We’re stuck with missing notifications or risking something being spoiled because somebody clicked a notification from the writer because they thought it was an update but it’s a response to a choice, but nothing can move you if you see it coming.
I know it seems like I’m being unfair and I probably am being unfair and needlessly aggressive, but I’m quite upset with the results we’ve gotten, thankful for the effort you and the other mods have put it regardless, though.
"Interactive Story" and "Interactive Fan Fiction" both sound blah for someone looking at the list of tags. How about "Make Your Own Story"?
Good idea! I asked mostlypoptarts to update the tag. Let me know what you guys think!
I haven't thought about things from that perspective, but must admit, I really like it! I was fine with Interactive Story, but "Make Your Own Story" sounds better for me. On top of that, it deals with the issue Lord_EAA brought up, that there are people who don't know what an Interactive Story is just by the term alone. Make Your Own Story, that explains it pretty well, with the whole thing kinda influenced by these Make Your Own Adventure books we (probably) all had as a child. So, while I am not sure if it will help all that much, due to there really only being so much the tag system can do, I'd say it is at least a good idea worth giving a try
If liquid can agree then so can i..........................a month later............Sorry lot of stuff has happened lately. Also i didn't get notified. Regardless i agree and I'm happy we reached this conclusion.
Also YOU READ THOSE TOO!! I thought i was one of the few people in the world who did. Did you ever read Fighting Fantasy o the Lone wolf series?