So The Enemy Within actually has a huge plot hole with the Pact
So this kinda just dawned on me, but S2 has a major plot hole involving the Pact and their motivations.
So we all know that the main goal's of the Pact is: They want to find Sanctus to steal a virus and then mix it with Riddler's blood so they can use the serum it creates to help them for their own personal gains. These being, Harley wanting it to stop her hereditary disease, Bane for his "venom," Freeze for his wife, and John is there because Harley. Riddler wants to be part of the Pact because he needs help attacking the Sanctus (which is/was part of the agency) for revenge on what happened to him. So the game sets us up with the Pact needing 3 things which they "dont" have. They dont have Riddler's blood, the location into the blacksite, or a way to enter the blacksite once found. However, they actually do from the very start.
- They have Riddler's blood, he is with the Pact and he is alive. They have easy access to it.
- Riddler has the location of the blacksite on his usb. He already knows where it is.
- To enter the blacksite, all they needed was a scan of Riddler's eyes, again something they would have had easy access to already. (not to mention a worker there could just open it for them/make them open it, like Batman does later)
So what the hell was going on with the Pact exactly? Everything they do is unnecessary. They had all 3 things, but didn't just go and attack Sanctus like the plan was? Instead Riddler is trying to kill Batman to "prove his worth" to the Pact even though he is the one who should have all the leverage? Bane is robbing the GCPD for more guns (but has enough to kill all the police there?) not to mention that the guns they stole were to rob the agency and get Riddler's body back, something that they shouldn't have had to do because Riddler should have never died, because in reality they would have went straight to Sanctus. And even then Bane's men don't come with the Pact to attack Sanctus, so this is all pointless as well. Catwoman also confirms that Riddler hated Sanctus the most for what they did to him. I know he hates the Agency, but why not just attack Sanctus, the people you hate the most, and have the upper hand on? Harley went to steal millions of dollars for the Pact, but we see it never be used or necessary. The only thing that seemed necessary for the virus mixing might be Freeze stealing Biotech, but if thats the only thing they really needed besides the 3 others they already had, why not go do that, and now you're all set, now attack Sanctus. Why was the Pact just sitting on their hands for so long and not doing anything when they could have? The whole plot of S2 kinda just falls apart knowing this.
Comments
Just cause Riddler was insane and had an ego. He wanted to play games and riddles with Batman... He isn't annoyed when Batman shows up in the casino he wanted to fight him and kill him, he sees him as the biggest player in Gotham. Maybe he felt they need to get Batman out of the way before they could start their plans. First he wanted to kill Batman with his puzzle which failed. Then he had a second attempt on the boat to the break his code/kill him. If the pact had actually all been there on the boat I don't think Batman would of stood a chance especially if he got captured in the cage. When (John) kills Riddler it basically ruins the rest of the pacts plans cause Riddler was the one with the key/plans.
But that's the other thing, Batman wasnt involved with them at all until Riddler randomly decided to make Batman involved. You can argue is an "ego" thing, but again like why waste the time? They had everything they needed, and seeing that apparently Riddler was hellbent on destroying Santus and the Agency, why didnt he do that? Instead he got side tracked with Batman for no other reason than for the plot demanding some sort of reason for these events to unfold, that in reality, shouldnt have happened.
He's insane, he didn't like the idea of Batman being a bigger name than him in Gotham. As I said it was his ego that made him want to take on Batman and you can see his disappointment on the boat when the pact weren't there to see Batman break his code or turn a woman death. Alfred states the "man's deranged" you can't really expect him to do the rational thing. The other pact members basically had to follow his lead. I do not know what Catwoman's original deal with Riddler was but that may have had something to do with it too. If they broke into the spa and Batman showed up it would of ruined everything (which it does) Riddler may have wanted to avoid this scenario.
Saying Riddler is insane is just lazy. Also the Pact members dont care that the only person who will give them access to the blacksite is out here doing stupid shit which can ruin everything? Again, Riddler was so focused on hurting Sanctus, so why not do that, and then get to Batman. The only reason Riddler gets Batman involved is because the writers needed some excuse for the player to get involved. However, the involvement did not work out in the long run because like I said in the post, the Pact had everything already, they shouldnt have gotten involved with everything else.
Riddler gets involved with Batman because he is arrogant to the point of insanity. That's not lazy writing, it's one of his traits and a flaw that gets brought up several times in the story. The guy is obsessed with taking back "his" city and breaking down Batman. That is established very soon with his first scene and talked about several times by different characters. The Riddler being incredibly narcissist is something that has been part of his character in most of his portrayals, and Harley herself points out that he is stupid for trying to fight Batman.
I also explained to you in the other post why everything the Pact stole was necessary or at least useful for the raid, specially the biotech Freeze took, since they have to mix Riddler's blood with Lotus virus somehow, and you probably need good equipment for that. They also needed the guns and trucks in case things went south and the Agency came after them following the attack on SANCTUS. Just because they can actually access the laboratory at any time, doesn't mean they can't prepare themselves better. Also, Riddler killing every agent in Gotham would have made everything easier for them, since Waller was trying to hunt them down even before they start attacking the city.
Honestly, and without trying to offend you, you seem obsessed with finding plotholes and thinking too much about plot points that are quite simple, just for the sake of finding them.
Riddler wanted to get revenge on Mori and prove he could best Batman first. He was also their leader. What were they supposed to do? Bane and his men seem like they were really loyal to Riddler, so just forcing the info out of him wasn't really an option.
He didn't like Batman getting involved in taking revenge on Mori. Batman openly declared war on Riddler by stopping him from killing one of his enemies. Thus making him an enemy himself. Before the SANCTUS raid, Riddler had a plan involving the missiles to take out most if not all of the Agency with the missiles he acquired from Mori. Harley (and assumedly the rest of the Pact) didn't care for that as you can see from her message to Riddler in Episode 1. Also, the guns from the Arsenal were for the raid on the SANCTUS facility. Bane didn't know Riddler was dead until Batman told him in that scene. You can see a few of Bane's men at the facility if you go as Batman.
Riddler's insanity is part of the main plot. It's due to the Lotus virus. Again though, Riddler wasn't exactly doing random stuff. It was all related to crippling the Agency with the missiles.
Not really obsessed, its more something I noticed and now it bothers me because in the grand scheme it doesnt make sense. The only real argument I can see for Riddler decided to ruin all the plans for his "insanity" is because thats what the serum is suppose to do to you or if you survive the virus, it makes you insane. However, this doesnt really make sense because this happened to Riddler a while ago, and he was sane enough to make the entire Pact, get all these people involved, and yet once it finally comes to the final step is when he now decides to be an idiot? Also like I said in the original post, Freeze stealing the biotech seems the most important to the pact. Harley stole a ton of money/jewels but thats not even mentioned or even important to the Pact actually needs. Bane uses his men to kill the GCPD with guns, to steal guns. If this is to be better armed, I think they would need more men, not weapons. I mean they did just out gun the police in a police station, I think they were good on weapons. Again with the Agency and Sanctus thing, Sanctus technically isnt part of the agency anymore, so hurting the Agency isnt going to effect the other. If anything he would go after Sanctus first for what they did to him, and then go after the Agency. Waller didnt even start getting involved with Riddler's reemergence, so it would make more sense to take out Sanctus in sercet, now the Pact all have the serum and have the "super powers" like Riddler did, and then take downt he agency, it would be easier that way.
I FIGURED IT OUT (mostly)! John Doe messed all of Riddler's plans up (Batman too). In Episode 2 John says that Riddler was a terrible leader and so intolerably annoying. Harley seems to share that opinion too. We don't know how Freeze fully felt about him but he seemed alright with him. Bane really liked and admired Riddler. However, due to Riddler's ego, he probably wasn't the best at managing his team. He probably expected most of them to follow his plans without question! He didn't tell anyone about his plan to trap Batman on the Lady of Dublin where he was planning to fire a massive blow at the Agency (including taking out Waller) with the missiles. He told John Doe to tell the others to meet him at the Lady of Dublin. You can choose to listen to Riddler monologue to the captured Agents (Blake, Avesta and "Mike" I think) about his plan. He says "My friends will all be here soon. They might have disagreed at first but they will come around when they see what this is all in aid of." Riddler planed to get rid of the Agency and Batman all in one strike before going on with the main plan. It actually makes Riddler smarter than the rest of the Pact who go about business as usual. He actually wanted to take out the main threats to his plan before raiding the facility. John Doe didn't tell them and maybe told them Riddler wanted to hit their intended targets that night instead (Armory, GothCorp and Gotham Brokerage). It all adds up.
Well it kinda adds up, but theres too much off screen not really explained. This whole situation has too much "well maybe its because this..." and no solid proof. We can assume the Pact didnt come because John lied and didnt tell the rest of the Pact, but then we still wonder who killed Riddler. To be honest this whole thing will probably not be as "weird" if they tell us who killed Riddler.
You're right. Episode 5 has a lot to get done. We need answers regarding the circumstances involving Riddler's death. The full role that John Doe played in his downfall. I really hope it all gets cleared up.
Riddler wanted Batman out of the picture early because A. He likes a challenge, -- and as others have said -- his ego made him think he could defeat Batman. and B. Either way, Batman would have found out and tried to take them down. 3 simultaneous raids on various Gotham facilities? A huge break-in at a spa? Batman would have interfered with their plan at some point, and I don't think he wanted that to happen once they got what they needed, and were on the cusp of victory (Lotus Virus)...
The reason they didn't do it sooner is because Riddler wanted to announce his return to Gotham a bit prematurely. He's "always one/two step(s) ahead" of the authorities, and I think he likes it. He likes making these games, these puzzles, these riddles. Once Riddler died, the Pact needed all those things from the raids to get his body back. They probably could have done it sooner but, like I said, Riddler wanted to challenge Batman and then inevitably surprise him at the Lady of Dublin with all the other members of the Pact.
John must have notified the others of Riddler's untimely death, maybe even before he had died on the boat, but also while he was away, so they immediately went into salvage mode, getting all those things so soon after R's death.
The ego thing seems off too. Ep 1 made it seem like Riddler wasn't the leader of the Pact at all, that he was doing all this to try and prove himself to the Pact. But he doesnt have anything to prove really, he has everything he needs ready to take out Sanctus like he wanted but instead he doesnt. Sure he attacks Mori and all that, but then what? He just sits on his hands and none of the Pact disagree with him? They just sit on their hands too waiting for Riddler? If they were all planning for the bigger scheme to hit all 3 places at once, and John never told the Pact to meet Riddler at the boat, that means the Pact was obviously planning something to do on that same night, and if Riddler was the real leader, why would he be planning to do that the same day? Obviously, he may have told John to tell them not to do the plan, but come on. Riddler just "Oopsies thats the same date I was planning on blowing shit up is the same day we were all going to do our super complex 3 hits at same time plan! Better cancel our bigger goal for this instead!"
Considering your meme track record I'm starting to think this thread is one of your jokes...
I agree with you when you say everything would be a lot more clear if they revealed who killed Riddler. Assuming it is John, everything that happened with the Pact could've been Harley's plan after Riddler died. I mean she obviously didn't like him, and him dicking around with Batman and going off doing his own thing when they literally had everything they needed to complete the job probably made her despise him even more. John could've actually told Harley that Riddler wanted to meet up on the Lady of Dublin but it was her doing that led everyone not to back him up. This can be supported by how reluctant John was about lying to Harley about the laptop. If he was already dishonest, he shouldn't have had much trouble agreeing to help Bruce. After hearing about Bruce from John, she might've seen Riddler as expendable and convinced John to bump him off. Harley leaves Riddler's body with the Agency and monitors their trucks very closely from that point on. She gets Bruce to steal from his own company, giving her an EMP, the Phalanx Key, his resources, and a guy whose intelligence probably rivals Riddler's. The three attacks could've just been her covering her tracks, her spontaneously saying "I know he's our leader but let's do something else" probably would raise suspicion and turn Bane against her. She never got to see the laptop because Riddler would've kept it to himself, he only told them that there's a piece of the puzzle on it. Harley thinks she has everything she needs but when she finally gets to see the laptop it turns out Riddler locked it. This leads her to hire Catwoman to go into Riddler's booby trapped hideout. Selina would've jumped at the job because Riddler obviously meant a lot to her. Everything unraveled because she didn't account for Batman, but Riddler had. If she had followed Riddler, Batman likely wouldn't have been able to stop them.
Maybe you're actually overthinking this a bit: they had almost everything they needed, and were about to commence their attack on Sanctus, but Riddler let his pride and ego get the better of him, which led to his untimely demise, which led to the Pact having to resort to a plan B.
Now you're right, they did have all the things they needed (more or less), but there was one problem: Riddler was the only one that had direct access to the information regarding the location. Harley outright says this in the beginning of episode 3 (paraphrasing here a little bit: "...but he held one card close to his chest: the location of the blacksite.") He had the USB drive, which contained a decryptor for the Project Lotus files... which also required a retinal scan from Riddler himself to be accessed. Riddler, with all his obsessive tendencies, didn't want anyone else to have access to the information, most likely so no one could try to pull a fast one on him. Given that his group is a bunch of supervillains, one of which who is a trained psychologist (making her the most tangible threat to him), he has a valid reason for being this paranoid. The downside to that is that if something were to happen to Riddler (which it did), there's no real contigency plan, forcing the Pact to go through this giant workaround.
However, there is still some stuff we can assume they didn't have as of yet: Freeze attacked a biotech company and stole items related to the transport and containment of organic materials. This was most likely for the safe storage and transportation of the virus (running around with a portable plague in your bare hands is not the safest way to handle hazardous materials, which a scientist like Freeze would be well aware of), and possibly for the sake of his wife as well. Alternatively, he could have been collecting things needed to synthesize the virus into the intended healing agent, which is probably a bit more complex than pricking Riddler's finger and having him bleed on top of the virus. Bane attacked a police arsenal for both weapons and armored vehicles (Chip mentions Bane forcing him to give him the keys to the armored vehicles), likely to aid in both attacking the blacksite, and for making an escape from it afterwards (in episode 4, John mentions Harley stashing one of the armored trucks at the carnival after attacking the Agency convoy). Harley attacked a bank, which was probably intended as a diversion to make things easier for Bane and Freeze.
And while Riddler had the location of the site, that doesn't necessarily mean he was outright ready to attack just yet, either. If Riddler's psychological profile is to be believed, he's extremely detail-oriented: he was probably scoping the place out and trying to figure out the building before launching an attack, which would explain the 'thorough paper trail' he had on his laptop; schematics and such. Trying to determine security systems, the layout, what to expect. Everything he could feasibly dig up.
Also is the fact that episode 3 has a small scene of Freeze discussing his attempts to make a freeze grenade, in anticipation of the fail-safes they were expecting to encounter at the facility. This would just seem to further suggest they weren't 100% ready to attack just yet. They were most likely in the final phases of their plot, gathering the last few items/tools they needed. This would also explain the fact that Bane and his men were surprised at the new's of Riddler's death-- he was alive when this part was planned out. Chances are, the plan was for all five members of the Pact to meet up after they obtained what they needed, but John set Riddler up, and he was killed while the rest of the Pact was still busy.
So with all that in mind, I think the story is simply that Riddler's ego ended up ruining the plan they originally had. He put his vengeance and ego above the plan, and tried attacking Batman and the Agency, probably in some attempt to tie up loose ends before going after Sanctus. Since he died in the midst of it, the Pact was forced to go through a ton of hoops in order to carry out the plan.
With Riddler dead, the only person that knew the blacksite's location was gone. So in order to obtain that information, they'd need to access his laptop, which in turn required two things:
Riddler's eyes, in order to bypass the retinal scan required to access his laptop files, as well as a way to bypass security at Sanctus.
Riddler's decryptor, as part of the 2-step security measure (retinal scan + decryptor)
Since he's dead, the only way to obtain a retinal scan is via his body... which they needed to steal from the Agency... and once stolen, they needed a device in order to open the container (the Phalanx key). And finally, they needed a device to actually scan the eyes and make usable prints out of it, which seems to be what Catwoman was called to find for them at the end of episode 2. Riddler's blood was also needed, but they would be able to get samples from alongside his eyes. With that out of the way, all that was left was finding a way to access the files related to Lotus.
This leads to Harley deciding to check his old hideout for clues, which leads to Bruce finding the decryptor. One thing worth mentioning is that on the computer in his hideout, he had a figurative dead man's switch: after the retinal scan failed, a self-destruct was activated, intended to take out the decryptor, and by extension, access to the files. If Riddler added that to his own computer, solely on the off chance that someone somehow infiltrated his hideout and found it, he probably had the foresight to do a similar thing with his laptop. If the Pact were to try to force him to cough up the location, he probably had some trick up his sleeve to scramble/destroy the files on there, too. Basically ensuring no one but him alone could access the files. And if someone else DID try, he would destroy the files as a last resort. This could potentially be part of the reason why no one tried strong-arming him into giving away the location. But more than likely, it's because they weren't ready to move, as mentioned with all the above.
And with all these pieces finally collected, that finally brings us to the events of episode 4, where they're now able to go through with their plan... a plan which they likely would have been able to accomplish much sooner had Riddler not gotten himself killed.
....Huh. I think you got it, bud.
nailed it!