I kinda wanted to just say one last thing about this game. I guess I wanted to kinda "change" what I originally was saying about my original view of the game after finishing it. I feel this game's story is being ripped apart for a lot of the wrong reasons. Is this game perfect and tell one of the best stories of all time? In my opinion no. But does it tell an overall well done story with something to say? Yes, and it seems so many people just ignore that, mostly because a lot of people cant get over one single scene. (Warning: very long and spoils.)
So many people seem to think this game is bad, horribly written, you name it, just because Joel dies and how he dies. This is so far from being a problem its honestly a bit ridiculous and I see too many people acting like they are master scribes who know exactly how they'd write this game's story, which for some reason becomes Joel not being brutally killed. Joel's death and how he dies is very crucial to this story. It is meant to make you feel uncomfortable, angry, and upset. Its a driving force for Ellie and actually shows an effect on Ellie and her character. The reveal later that Ellie's motivations also largely stem from the fact she is upset with herself for never truly reconciling with Joel and now it is too late is also very important and actually says something about us as people.
People also seem upset we don't actually kill Abby. I can understand this. Having Ellie kill Abby in the end might have done a better job of showing just how unworth it was to achieve that revenge once you return home to see that now you're all by yourself again, and how it isnt going to change the fact Joel is gone and Ellie never reconciled with him. But at the same time Ellie not killing Abby shows that Ellie is above her. Ellie can actually let it go which Abby never could, even though Ellie arguably had it worst as her last interaction with her loved one wasn't very positive, while Abby's was. But this is half the reason why Ellie even wants revenge so bad, she feels obligated to do it because of what she did to Joel and in doing so she believes it will bring her that feeling of reconcile she never had. But as she is drowning Abby she sees that last memory of Joel and realizes it won't change the truth that she never forgave Joel to his face- so why do it? Its selfish to make herself feel better, mirroring Joel's selfish choice of not letting Ellie choose if she would live or die in the hospital, and in doing so as she drowns Abby, she understands Joel's choice of doing anything for a loved one, and in a way she does "reconcile" with Joel as she now understands why he did it.
Then once we reach the farm house and Ellie can't play the guitar anymore, and how she leaves it behind is very obvious symbolism about how she will never see Joel again (just like how she can't play guitar again) so she decides she needs to move on, so she leaves the guitar behind (now leaving Joel behind.) She understands why Joel did what he did, and it is a bitter sweet ending. It is a good message about loving your loved ones and what you'll do for them, like I said before, a reminder to tell your loved ones you love them. Ellie was choosing to be mad at Joel and after he dies she realizes she never wanted to be mad at him, but she was mad because she couldnt truly understand why he did what he did, until that last moment as she was drowning Abby does she get it. She no longer had to drown Abby because she finally understood Joel and could truly forgive him. Now she returns home with regret about how their relationship could have ended on more friendly terms, but she understands she needs to continue living and go on with her life instead of dwelling on the past. It does honestly tell a great story.
Now obviously this game is far from perfect. I'll try to keep this stuff short so I don't repeat myself from before. There are a few glaring problems in my eyes. Those being structure and pacing. I'll start with pacing as its the most blatant flaw. A lot of this game feels stretched waaay out. It feels like it takes forever to reach the next narrative beat and even then sometimes it feels like it didnt move the story forward at all. So I do wish the game simply knew it was ok to cut things and get on with it. Next would be the structure. I wasn't that big of a fan of the flashback story telling, the only one that truly felt like it made absolute sense to do so is the final one with Joel and Ellie's last talk. Now before I talk a bit more in depth about how I would """fix""" the structure, please understand that it requires a lot more than just simply swapping x scene with y scene, it is not that simply of a fix. So keep that in mind as obviously there would need to be changes for the narrative to flow better.
I can't help but feel more people would have been more accepting of the plot, as well as the plot possibly just flowing better as a whole had it actually started with the past flashbacks that lead up to Ellie finding the truth, which then lead up to the party where Ellie yells at Joel.Then the start of the game plays, Joel dies, Abby leaves Jackson, and then after Abby falls asleep, where that first Joel museum flashback happens is where we then swap to Abby, and we continue to play as Abby but we go back to Ellie before Abby finds Owen and Mel dead. Ellie segment plays out the same, we kill Owen and Mel, return, return as Abby who finds them dead who then goes after Ellie, fight happens Ellie loses, flash forward to the farm and California, Ellie goes to Cali and plays out as we saw for the rest. Now obviously changes need to be made to make it all fit together and play together to work correctly as its easier said than done, obviously. But I do feel this structure would have helped the narrative. We already know that Ellie was upset with Joel at the start of the game so showing it and even knowing its because shes upset because she knows the truth all works out fine. The main thing that had to not be seen until the very end was their last scene. A big problem for me was simply because it felt like the game just straight up spoiled you for the Abby half of the game. The player already knows Ellie killed these people and it was hours ago, so its hard to really get that invested knowing what happens, but knowing about these characters and then having Ellie do it I feel would be more effective.
And there are some things that I dont really like much at all. Again Ill try to be short because repeating myself. A good amount of characters are very flat and really could have been more developed as I found myself not caring too much when they died (had it been structured differently I may have been.) I also found the California slave thing to be awkwardly placed in last minute. It was also a bit strange that Abby's suffering doesn't actually reflect Ellie's. Ellie's suffering is the result of her wanting revenge, but Abby's is kinda random, she just gets jumped by these slave people and suffers randomly, not because her revenge mission. Also in general I do think Abby's sections could have used more work. Like I said, Abby is a bit bland and I still think its weird they make Joel save Abby at the start but Abby never acknowledges what should make her question her actions. I also feel this is where the game begins to drag the narrative down a lot more as once you finish the game I cant help but feel the Abby section wasn't truly needed (at least in the way it was) as the ending is about Ellie and her change. But who knows, none of this can just be """fixed""" by just going "Oh well- I would actually do it this way!" because this narrative is a lot more complicated than that for quick """fixes."""
So yeah- I kinda just wanted to say that. There are so many narrative based video games these days that in all honesty are just so mediocre that for some reason get so much praise despite the fact they have the complexity and depth of a sandbox. So I find it refreshing that this game actually feels like it has something to say. Something that actually has some depth instead of being incredibly surface level. I originally said I would give this game a 6/10 but I feel saying that is a bit too low. After taking some more time to digest the story and just more time with the game I felt I should say this. This was also including the gameplay which I personally found to be not that good (especially because how glitchy it was for me.) So I figured I would rate it a bit differently after thinking about it a lot more. I also decided to be a bit more lenient on the gameplay. Even though I dont think the gameplay is that good, its serviceable and I dont think its fair for me to be so harsh on it for the glitches when it seems like Im the only one who had these problems. I figure I'll give it more of a grade rather than an X/10. Even though giving it a grade can still easily be translated to a X/10 I feel saying something like something out of 10 is too bold, so instead I think I'm going to say I think The Last Of Us 2 is a solid "B" but almost a B+. It has its issues for sure which keep it from truly being an A or A+ game, but is by far no where close being these super low scores a lot of people seem to think it is. If you think the story is truly awful, I'd recommended looking back at it. And its fine to not even like the game, but scores that are abysmally low I feel really discredit the actual value of this game.
I know what you mean but I cannot forgive the fact that Joel died by trusting strangers when in the first game, he never trusted anybody who weren't Tess, Bill, Ellie and Tommy. Remember when he didn't hesitate after he saw a bandit who was pretending to ask for help? Yep, didn't even take a breath for a sec. Also, when Ellie met David, she didn't trust him at all, she refused to say her name and rejected his suggestion of following him to his camp for medicine.
I was never a fan of this type of major story and character inconsistency in sequels. When you try to "subvert" expectations, you need to make sure those story details make sense first. People are always gonna ask how the twists worked, they are gonna look back into the story and find out how it all came together. If they stop at a part of the trail, then it's a problem.
The way Joel was killed was pretty much forced. Not just because he was out-of-character, but also because Abby didn't have any character moments at that part. Joel saved her life and she never thought about that. When a killer murdered someone I cared about but saved my life and were nice to me, I would have tried to negotiate with them first instead of just straight up take them by surprise. Then she asked him to guess who she was. Like, did she forget that they are in a goddamn zombie apocalypse? How is anyone supposed to recognize the companions of the people they killed when they never met them face-to-face to begin with? Also, how did she learn Joel's last name? There is NO ONE in the first game who mentioned Joel's family name. In fact, there are no family names mentioned in first game, except for the part when Joel warned Sarah about Jimmy Cooper and his family getting infected. Also also, Tommy and Marlene (In the flashbacks) never mentioned Joel's last name when Abby was present around them. What if she got the wrong Joel? Could have been Joel Murphy, Joel Johnson, Joel Baker, Joel anything etc. Abby never even asked him why he killed her father and just kills him. The only reason she didn't is to save it for the audience when they reach her story arc.
She never learns the fact that her dad is the one threatened Joel, who was pretty much armed with every deadly weapon he could possibly own, with a scrapel which resulted in his own death. When you're the most important person in a group who is trying to save the world, I think it's better to first make sure that you're alive, then you find out how to make a vaccine. Plus, he didn't even hesitate to wait for Ellie to wake up and let her think about the fact that she has to be sacrificed. He literally didn't care to have Ellie die thinking she saved the world. I don't even buy the fact that Jerry is the only one who knows how to save the world. What about the other doctors whose statuses are determinant? They never bring them up in the sequel, only when Joel entered the room.
The biggest problem of this game is obviously Abby's character. Her story arc didn't do anything to make us symphatize with her. She is just a regular survivor who is in a war and all she wanted to do in 4 years was kill the man who murdered her father. Why should we feel bad for her when everyone in the apocalypse lost their families? Joel had a worse experience than Abby did. She showed no sign of regret or sympathy for Joel. She was totally happy that he is dead. In fact, most of her story doesn't have many connections to Ellie's arc. I don't understand the point of making Abby's story just as long as Ellie's journey in the first half when we already know the fate of her companions apart from Manny and I'm sure there are many people who raged quit the game when they found out they were playing as Abby. Did anyone actually ask to play as the character who killed a beloved one? Abby could have had an arc like in GTA 4 Episodes from Liberty City where you play as 2 minor characters who were part of Niko Bellic's storyline but it's not similar at all.
The fact that we were forced to play as Abby to fight against Ellie at the theater almost made me remove the disc from my PS4 and break it. It makes me wonder: who is the protagonist of this game? It's not Ellie, it's not Joel, it's not Abby. Who is it? Who are we supposed to root for? I don't even know what this game is all about. It's a revenge story, without the specific character actually getting revenge. It's like if John Wick kills all of his enemies but spares his main target at the end of the film.
Even if I would still think this game was a mess, the ending would have been much better if Ellie actually listened to Dina and stayed with her new family. No matter how many people try to justify the ending we got, I will always think it's a disrespect to Joel's character. Joel did everything he could to keep Ellie alive, teaching her how to survive and how to swim, and what does she do in return? Letting his killer get away with what she did. Like seriously, she decided to go find Abby again and kill her this time but in the end, she didn't even do it and WHY? Because she saw Joel in her mind? Ellie provoked Abby in a fight and not even 10 minutes later, she changes her mind quicker than Darth Vader's redemption in Return of the Jedi. She didn't even care that she just lost 2 fingers from her left hand. I don't care if it doesn't bring Joel back and wouldn't be that worth it, Ellie should have finished what she started, there was no going back. Abby doesn't even say anything or show a sign of regret or sympathy for what she did to Ellie's life. She just walks away like nothing happened. And what award does Ellie get for doing that? Making her life even worse than before. Dina left the farmhouse with her baby, Tommy doesn't wanna talk with her anymore, Joel is dead, his killer is still alive and she doesn't have anything left.
This took me longer than it should have. But in the end, I think this game has some good ideas but the execution is just atrocious. I actually can't believe Neil Druckmann is the same guy who directed the first game, along with Bruce Straley. I was waiting for him to justify his choice for the story and he did not.
I kinda wanted to just say one last thing about this game. I guess I wanted to kinda "change" what I originally was saying about my original… more view of the game after finishing it. I feel this game's story is being ripped apart for a lot of the wrong reasons. Is this game perfect and tell one of the best stories of all time? In my opinion no. But does it tell an overall well done story with something to say? Yes, and it seems so many people just ignore that, mostly because a lot of people cant get over one single scene. (Warning: very long and spoils.)
(Spoiler)
So yeah- I kinda just wanted to say that. There are so many narrative based video games these days that in all honesty are just so mediocre that for some reason get so much praise despite the fact they have the complexity and depth of a sandbox. So I find it refreshing that this game actually feels like it has something to say. Something that actually has some depth instead of bein… [view original content]
Yup I appreciate the flawed ambition. This game needed an additional writing team/editors and it would've been amazing. Half-baked is what I said before, but it's also unfocused. It's got a lot of subtle themes, complex characters and messaging and whatnot but all of that isn't communicated well enough. They had some nice ideas for the game but they weren't developed well-enough, like Abby and Lev/Yara. Playing as Abby is absolutely neccessary for things like the ending and for why revenge won't solve Ellie's problems, but they didn't focus enough on what needed to be focused on. So people give their analysis on the game and all the subtle stuff but the problem is most players won't get those feelings.
Also the reasoning behind Ellie's choice at the end isn't communicated clearly enough, so I can see why people think the ending is out of left-field. The events leading up to Joel's death too, some people say it makes perfect sense but it's clearly not enough for some people. I think the E3 Scene should've been at the start of the game to show his softer side, and Tommy should've called Joel's name out during the blizzard. It's sad because this game has genuine problems but I feel people are focusing on the wrong things, but again, I don't blame them when ND should've done a better job at communicating reasoning behind actions. This is a character-study game, characters over plot, and when players get confused at character-decisions (like the ending) I can't help but think maaybe they could've done a better job.
Maybe I'll write a list of what I would change later. This is a game that you'll remember for a while and can be discussed thoroughly, that's for sure.
Oh, and it's funny seeing r/TWDG getting angry at the game. "Why yes I think The Final Season's ending definitely made sense, what do you mean that was a plot-hole?"
I kinda wanted to just say one last thing about this game. I guess I wanted to kinda "change" what I originally was saying about my original… more view of the game after finishing it. I feel this game's story is being ripped apart for a lot of the wrong reasons. Is this game perfect and tell one of the best stories of all time? In my opinion no. But does it tell an overall well done story with something to say? Yes, and it seems so many people just ignore that, mostly because a lot of people cant get over one single scene. (Warning: very long and spoils.)
(Spoiler)
So yeah- I kinda just wanted to say that. There are so many narrative based video games these days that in all honesty are just so mediocre that for some reason get so much praise despite the fact they have the complexity and depth of a sandbox. So I find it refreshing that this game actually feels like it has something to say. Something that actually has some depth instead of bein… [view original content]
I liked the story. Poogers already went over this but the biggest issue to me is how it's kinda inconsistent it is with its message: letting yourself getting consumed by revenge will destroy your life and in the end it won't even be worth it. This is very true for Ellie: she turns her back on a whole ass happy life with Dina and the baby because she let Abby be more important than them. She loses her fingers on top of that and in the end she left the whole ordeal more broken than what she was to begin with.
The issue with this is that Abby too is a main character who let revenge consume her, but lost incredibly little for it as a result (her relationship with Owen I guess? which is later rekindled so whatever). They used Abby's perspective to show us that the other side was human too and that pursuing revenge was causing pain even to people who weren't involved - I think that's fine and good to have there, sure, but I would think it'd even more important to use the second perspective as yet another example of someone who lost a great deal pursing vengeance. But the truth is, she just doesn't: she kills Joel, it goes without a hitch, and she just moves on with her life, goes back home, has sex, adopts a kid, etc.
The big theme of the game is greatly invalidated when you have these two outcomes coexist: a person pursues revenge and loses everything, but the other does it too and loses close to nothing. The only thing one can conclude from this is "the consequences of revenge are completely random, sometimes you get fucked, other times you don't!", which I don't think is what the game was trying to tell us.
Still, I can appreciate the attempt, and overall, I still loved revisiting this world. There's a lot of good to this game and I especially appreciate the worldbuilding on this. The Seattle conflicts were great, even if one of them (WLF vs FEDRA) we only experience as a result of exploration and reading leftover notes from that time. Even the news of Firefly groups reassembeling had me interested. I love TLOU's setting above everything else in the games and I kinda hope it's not abandoned due to all the gamer outrage.
I'm definitely not bored playing this game, and am really enjoying it thus far (I think I'm halfway through Day 2? About to head to the hospital and I remember that footage taking place at night.)
So far, at least in terms of the big moment,
Your thoughts on whether it's in character or not hinges on whether you believe a 4-year period in a comfortable, safe, community-oriented space can change a man like Joel. I do think the prologue was paced weird in also forcing you to inexplicably play as Abby, forcing her on a collision course with Joel for the sake of the story. Having that happen off-screen would have been more mysterious and probably pulled-off better. I'm sure I'll have more thoughts on structure once I'm further in/done with the story.
Pacing is a big issue with this game, though the flashbacks break up those constantly-dark moments very nicely.
By god, the flashback scenes are my absolute favourite parts of the game, probably because they're just more Joel+Ellie stuff, reminiscent on the first game's dynamic.
That Museum flashback had the biggest grin slapped on my face. Felt like it was ripped straight out of the first game with exploring a long-forgotten Old World landmark, Ellie learning more about the pre-aoocalypse and juxtaposing the cheery atmosphere with some dead ex-fireflies hiding out in there. Though I can't help but wonder that it's so much more powerful because of Joel's death/absence.
The setpieces in this game are interesting so far and help to break up the usual stealth/combat loop. (Though I've only encountered 2: the Prologue horde and the Truck Escape) They were unique and fun, and I'm interested to see what else they can come up with that feels grounded enough.
I love the wide-linear areas of the game, even though it leads to a lot to edit out as I record my impressions on this game, because I looove exploring this gorgeous game, reading notes (and the notes still have that melancholy charm of "welp, you're dead now, buddy. Sorry.")
And that's another thing. The game is awesomely beautiful. This is definitely the PS4's swan song as evidenced by the detail of environments, animations, motion capture, and how my PS4 constantly thinks its a jet engine.
The combat in this game is really fun. Enemy callouts and the wide spaces to traverse and stealth. I'm doing my best to only kill dogs if they get too close (my heart breaks hearing them squeal) and with recent footage of people pulling off awesome chain kills and even Uncharted 4-esque aerial kills, it's really cool.
Going back to the first game is going to make the combat there feel so... basic.
I will say there's a weird disconnect in gameplay and story in that we're right on Tommy's tail after seeing those fresh, tortured bodies, but we've had to find gate codes and take fuel detours, when it really seems like Tommy hasn't since we would have run into him by now.
Nah. Abby exists to show the aftermath of the revenge and how she still had bad dreams of her father. She absolutely lost a great deal. It's hinted at that she and Owen broke up because of her thirst for vengeance. She goes on to lose all of her friends because she killed her father's killer. Then she gets captured for months, gets beaten, tortured, maybe even raped. Hanged. Looks completely different. Then she gets forced to fight Ellie. I know that most of this stuff happened because of the Rattlers and isn't really related but I think she suffered enough and I absolutely don't get that impression.
I'm definitely not bored playing this game, and am really enjoying it thus far (I think I'm halfway through Day 2? About to head to the hosp… moreital and I remember that footage taking place at night.)
So far, at least in terms of the big moment,
(Spoiler)
The setpieces in this game are interesting so far and help to break up the usual stealth/combat loop. (Though I've only encountered 2: the Prologue horde and the Truck Escape) They were unique and fun, and I'm interested to see what else they can come up with that feels grounded enough.
I love the wide-linear areas of the game, even though it leads to a lot to edit out as I record my impressions on this game, because I looove exploring this gorgeous game, reading notes (and the notes still have that melancholy charm of "welp, you're dead now, buddy. Sorry.")
And that's another thing. The game is awesomely beautiful. This is definitely the PS4's swan song as evidenced by the detail of … [view original content]
"Abby exists to show the aftermath of the revenge and how she still had bad dreams of her father."
If that's her only purpose, fine I guess. I don't think we needed a whole section playing as her if that's all they intended for her to bring to the table.
As for she representing someone that suffered and lost a lot due to revenge? I still disagree. I held a different position before talking to some friends, but Abby losing all her friends doesn't really work because most, if not all of her friends, die as a result of their own actions. They either try to kill Ellie before Ellie ever tries to kill them (face scar dude, Owen and Mel) or get infected in the process of running away from her (Nora). There's no telling of what Ellie would do if they just gave her Abby's location, so it becomes hard to see their deaths as anything other than a scuffle Ellie had with any other WLF on her path to Abby. It's doesn't feel as personal as it needed to be as she doesn't really premeditate their deaths, they happen in the heat of the moment.
Furthermore, we don't really see Abby mourning anyone but Owen, and even that pain is short lived on screen. Their deaths don't leave any lasting impact on Abby that we can see. When we resume playing as her in Santa Barbara we see someone who is just... happy? healed? Someone who got a surrogate kid and that looks onward to a hopeful future with the Fireflies. She seems emotionally (and physically) unscuffed from anything that transpired but the loss of her father. She moved on from her revenge, all the pain and all the loss she endured, and it doesn't feel earned as we don't really see her going through any of it in a significant manner.
And that just really contrasts with Ellie who at the same time is unable to sleep knowing Abby is still alive and is still haunted by it all enough that she chooses to leave her newfound family behind for it. So I just question, why is that when both are guilty of the same crime: not letting go of revenge.
As for anything that happened with the slavers, it just really has nothing to do with anything. It's a random event separate from the chain of events Joel killing the Fireflies set in motion. Abby definitely suffered a great deal there, but not in any way that aids the theme of the game considering it wasn't brought onto herself from her past actions in any way shape or form.
I really don't hate Abby, I just think she was a tad misused. I think the concept of having these two characters that fight each other to the death on the last segment of the game, both broken by their quest to vengeance cool and solid, but I think for it to be perfect Abby's reasons for being broken should've been directly tied to what she did, and they just aren't.
Just finished Day 2 now. Boy, the story is getting intense, it certainly seems like we're getting to the climax and finale of this tale, but judging from current play time and what I've heard, I'm barely halfway through this thing.
Gosh, I'm doing my best not to kill the dogs. Their whimpers really sadden me, but mostly I've got to kill some of them as they're attacking me or right on my tail. The combat sections in this game are very wide and lots of room to navigate. It's so fun. That hospital section was my favourite part so far.
Fuck Stalkers. I hated those sections in the first game (since Listen Mode is basically useless and it's really hard to sneak up on them) but with this game's fancy new gory graphics and lots of atmosphere... boy, was that office building section tense -- followed immediately by a spore-infested office building and a Clicker, to boot.
Really glad to see the Scars make an appearance -- finally. They've been teased so much, so it's great to have a payoff (and a really jump-scary one at that. Damn arrow.) Those whistles are pretty creepy, though I wonder if there's a meaning behind them if you pay attention.
And maybe it's because I've been taking my sweet, sweet time with this game since Friday, but I'm not really feeling the lust for revenge anymore, mostly. I feel sorry for every NPC caught in the crossfire of Ellie's murder spree (since they didn't kill Joel) though with the main murderous group, sure, love to see Ellie give them some comeuppance, but I'm sad that Ellie is destroying her mental health to do it. I don't think she'll stop till she has Abby in her crosshairs.
On the topic of Abby, it's interesting to note that Abby was mentioned to have escaped "from her cell". Now that's weird. I thought she was totally with the WLF, or high in command or something. But no? Maybe not? Hmmm. Interesting.
Also, a quick PSA: Reminder that we are not and will never be as smooth as StealthGamerBR. Finally working his stealthy magic on this game, making really awesome plays. (Rabbit's Respawn is also a big TLOU stealth pro. Can't wait for him to tackle this game, too.)
And holy cow, there's whole sections of the map here I never knew existed! I just passed by or went on a different route, I guess.
Some details that I liked in the game/stuff that I forgot to say:
I like how there are so many cards and flowers by Joel's house. Really shows how he's a changed man. Seeing that he had the 'Idiots Guide to Space' book made me tear up. I think I remember seeing Ellie struggling to draw Joel's face as time passes. She should've worn 'Joel's clothes' at the Santa Barbara section. I also thought that was the worst looking part of the game. I liked seeing some more TLOU 1 Ellie snark with the rattlers. Did anyone else get duped by the fake Abby at the end? ND aren't good with fist-fights, that should've been a QTE section.
The more I thought about the ending, the more I hate it.
If Ellie didn't want to go and kill Abby once and for all, then why didn't she listen to Dina in the first place? Ellie knew that going after Abby again would result losing her new family and she doesn't even accomplish her mission while she had the chance which is such a disrespect to Joel's character. Ellie brought this on herself for being such an idiot and ending up alone. I feel no symphaty for her.
She had PTSD, she said she can't sleep and can't eat. Obviously in real-life this answer doesn't work but it's the world of The Last Of Us. Ellie says she can't go on much longer like this, she thinks seeking out Abby again will give her closure.
Also, a quick PSA: Reminder that we are not and will never be as smooth as StealthGamerBR. Finally working his stealthy magic on this game, … moremaking really awesome plays. (Rabbit's Respawn is also a big TLOU stealth pro. Can't wait for him to tackle this game, too.)
And holy cow, there's whole sections of the map here I never knew existed! I just passed by or went on a different route, I guess.
This is a pretty good review that I agree with almost entirely from gameplay to story and peoples reactions to the story as a whole, if you got the time I'd recommended giving it a watch
I already wrote a comment on his video, but I'll repeat it here.
I feel like he misunderstands why people take issue with Joel's death. People aren't mad simply because they killed him off. It's the way they killed him off. They took a compelling and three-dimensional character and then just reduced him to a cheap plot device for the sole purpose of enacting a revenge story. People are allowed to enjoy this game all they want, but I'm getting tired of people acting like this is a completely unreasonable criticism to make.
This is a pretty good review that I agree with almost entirely from gameplay to story and peoples reactions to the story as a whole, if you got the time I'd recommended giving it a watch
This is a pretty good review that I agree with almost entirely from gameplay to story and peoples reactions to the story as a whole, if you got the time I'd recommended giving it a watch
That's a pretty fair point which is why I agree with this video how the game really shouldnt have been so flashback heavy and Joel's death probably should have been more around the 6 hour mark. But Joel doesnt just "die for revenge plot" because as the story goes on, it becomes much more clear Ellie is less so about wanting revenge on Abby but more so thinking doing so will make her feel better about not forgiving Joel, meaning shes really doing it for herself. Being a cheap plot device would be if Joel only dies to send you on a revenge mission, then we kill Abby the end. It has a lot more important meaning behind it that is character driven by Joel and Ellie's relationship even though Joel is no more. Obviously its all subjective and people are going to like and dislike different things, and I can obviously get why people dont like Joel dying. But I think this review is correct where too many people look at it in the most surface level of ways.
I already wrote a comment on his video, but I'll repeat it here.
I feel like he misunderstands why people take issue with Joel's death. P… moreeople aren't mad simply because they killed him off. It's the way they killed him off. They took a compelling and three-dimensional character and then just reduced him to a cheap plot device for the sole purpose of enacting a revenge story. People are allowed to enjoy this game all they want, but I'm getting tired of people acting like this is a completely unreasonable criticism to make.
Just my two cents.
I agree that the discourse surrounding this game is a joke. I will not argue otherwise. The people who act like this is the worst thing to ever happen in the history of the video game industry are obnoxious. But the people who act like it's totally flawless and that it's illegitimate to take issue with its storytelling decisions are just as bad.
Completely agreed. I pretty much knew Joel was going to die, it was a feeling I had when watching the original promo material, even before the leaks came out. I figured it would happen, but so long as it was tastefully done and the character was respected, I'd be fine with it. That is not what happened, because the way it goes down does feel out of character and downright insulting.
I'll use Lee as a fitting example here. Lee's death was one that respected both the character and the audience, it was handled very well and delivered on the major themes present throughout the game and final episode. It left players upset, but for the right reasons, we saw a character we cared about die right before our eyes after he performed a true act of heroism in saving Clem, and his death comes right after Clem witnessed her parents as walkers. It was emotionally driven, much in the same way TLOU1 was in regards to its plot points and characters.
What TLOU2 did feels like the equivalent of keeping Lee alive at the end of S1 (wasn't bit, but still ends up rescuing Clem and the two are able to survive together for a while), Telltale confirms S2, markets it with Lee and Clem, saying it's going to be huge for both of their characters and relationship, only to kill Lee off at the hands of Michelle at the rest stop. Then the rest of his scenes that were teased and hinted at are nothing but flashbacks and dream sequences that actually work to develop their bond. Yes, S2 did that in No Going Back, but the game was never meant to focus on Lee and Clem, but on Clem solely. And hell, we did see how something similar ended up playing out thanks to ANF with both Kenny and Jane: two characters people cared about being thrown away in a short amount of time in ways that feels disrespectful to both of them.
Right now, it seems like the extreme defenders of this game are going down the same route as the extreme defenders of The Last Jedi, in that they think it's genius, and if you don't agree, than you're too stupid to understand and use a bunch of straw man arguments to lump you into a certain crowd. Hell, it seems like Neil, Naughty Dog, and some of the voice actors are doing exactly that already. I gave a pretty detailed reason earlier why I didn't enjoy the game and why I gave it a 4/10, and I've said the same thing elsewhere, hasn't stopped people from saying I'm just a bigoted hater who wanted to see the game fail. Because THAT'S the group some people want to use to characterize anyone who criticizes the game and cover up the game's shortcomings, and it's completely unfair.
I already wrote a comment on his video, but I'll repeat it here.
I feel like he misunderstands why people take issue with Joel's death. P… moreeople aren't mad simply because they killed him off. It's the way they killed him off. They took a compelling and three-dimensional character and then just reduced him to a cheap plot device for the sole purpose of enacting a revenge story. People are allowed to enjoy this game all they want, but I'm getting tired of people acting like this is a completely unreasonable criticism to make.
Just my two cents.
I spent so much time waiting for the moment Joel finally delivered Ellie to the Fireflies and then he goes and kills all of them and goes back to Jackson with Ellie. Why didn't they just stay there earlier and end the game there? 1 out of 10.
This is to show the game ain't all happy endings, and how broken of a man Joel is.
He's developed such a bond with Ellie, coupled with his fear of losing another prominent daughter-figure in his life (the grief, loneliness, and descent into darkness that happened after with Sarah) that he is willing to murder his way through the Fireflies to get her back and keep her safe.
Then it's all up to your interpretation of what Joel did was 'right' or not. That's the beauty of it.
Was it worth saving one person so a guy could retain his sanity, but in doing so "doom the human race"?
Ellie was unconscious after nearly drowning, and the Fireflies quickly got her to surgery. Isn't that a bit unethical as well? Especially in that she would have to die to get the mutated virus out.
Do you think Ellie would have accepted to be operated on even if it would kill her? Would Joel have accepted her consent?
Would the cure even work? It's never been done before, and yet the Fireflies all believe this is the big moment that would change the world. How would they distribute the cure? Would people want the world to go "back to normal"?
And at the very end: Did Ellie believe Joel when he said the Fireflies stopped looking for a cure, that it didn't work or that there were other people they could find instead?
Considering your stance on this issue... you actually might enjoy the sequel. The brutality is a bit much, but it certainly addresses your concerns with the ending of the first game.
This is to show the game ain't all happy endings, and how broken of a man Joel is.
He's developed such a bond with Ellie, coupled with his… more fear of losing another prominent daughter-figure in his life (the grief, loneliness, and descent into darkness that happened after with Sarah) that he is willing to murder his way through the Fireflies to get her back and keep her safe.
Then it's all up to your interpretation of what Joel did was 'right' or not. That's the beauty of it.
Was it worth saving one person so a guy could retain his sanity, but in doing so "doom the human race"?
Ellie was unconscious after nearly drowning, and the Fireflies quickly got her to surgery. Isn't that a bit unethical as well? Especially in that she would have to die to get the mutated virus out.
Do you think Ellie would have accepted to be operated on even if it would kill her? Would Joel have accepted her consent?
Would the cure even work? It's never been … [view original content]
Yeah, the discussion surrounding this game is very reminiscent of The Last Jedi or Game of Thrones Season 8. I guess every year or two, there's always gonna be that one piece of media that just really pisses people off and sparks a cavalcade of arguments between two extremes.
Completely agreed. I pretty much knew Joel was going to die, it was a feeling I had when watching the original promo material, even before t… morehe leaks came out. I figured it would happen, but so long as it was tastefully done and the character was respected, I'd be fine with it. That is not what happened, because the way it goes down does feel out of character and downright insulting.
I'll use Lee as a fitting example here. Lee's death was one that respected both the character and the audience, it was handled very well and delivered on the major themes present throughout the game and final episode. It left players upset, but for the right reasons, we saw a character we cared about die right before our eyes after he performed a true act of heroism in saving Clem, and his death comes right after Clem witnessed her parents as walkers. It was emotionally driven, much in the same way TLOU1 was in regards to its plot points and characters.
What… [view original content]
He's still compelling and three-dimensional. The way they did it, there's little wrong with that. I only take issue with it because everyone else is taking issue with it, when there's literally no problem. People think that it wasn't clear that Joel was a changed man, even with everything we got. He wasn't 'reduced to a cheap plot device' either, before the game released I was worried that it was just going to turn into a cheap revenge story but now that it's out I think it was a good idea. Because this game is really the Part II of TLOU. What happens to Joel and Ellie's relationship afterward? How do Joel and Ellie grow past the ending of the first game? It is an unreasonable criticism to make.
I already wrote a comment on his video, but I'll repeat it here.
I feel like he misunderstands why people take issue with Joel's death. P… moreeople aren't mad simply because they killed him off. It's the way they killed him off. They took a compelling and three-dimensional character and then just reduced him to a cheap plot device for the sole purpose of enacting a revenge story. People are allowed to enjoy this game all they want, but I'm getting tired of people acting like this is a completely unreasonable criticism to make.
Just my two cents.
What TLOU2 did feels like the equivalent of keeping Lee alive at the end of S1 (wasn't bit, but still ends up rescuing Clem and the two are able to survive together for a while), Telltale confirms S2, markets it with Lee and Clem, saying it's going to be huge for both of their characters and relationship, only to kill Lee off at the hands of Michelle at the rest stop. Then the rest of his scenes that were teased and hinted at are nothing but flashbacks and dream sequences that actually work to develop their bond.
But it's not like that because they're different series with different tones. Not saying you can't kill off characters any other way in the world of TLOU, but this fits for Joel. And ANF did nothing for the story, Jane and Kenny only died because they had no place in the story of S3, they didn't push characters or plot forward in any meaningful way. TLOU 2 respects Joel and Ellie and their relationship, while Clem is a pitiful poster-child of the cash cow that is TWD. She only remembers Lee, doesn't mention Christa. Characters dying doesn't do anything for her, off the top of my head the only deaths that did that were Lee and Omid. I'm sorry that people called you a bigot, that's not right.
Also I can respect some of your detailed reasoning for why you thought the game was 4/10 but some stuff seemed a little off, like saying Abby doesn't become apologetic or regret what she did to Joel, or that she got off "practically scot-free", that she "goes through no growth" or that the theater ambush fight was "immensely stupid". Also saying things like "Ellie was in no way the villain" when that wasn't how the game portayed it.
Completely agreed. I pretty much knew Joel was going to die, it was a feeling I had when watching the original promo material, even before t… morehe leaks came out. I figured it would happen, but so long as it was tastefully done and the character was respected, I'd be fine with it. That is not what happened, because the way it goes down does feel out of character and downright insulting.
I'll use Lee as a fitting example here. Lee's death was one that respected both the character and the audience, it was handled very well and delivered on the major themes present throughout the game and final episode. It left players upset, but for the right reasons, we saw a character we cared about die right before our eyes after he performed a true act of heroism in saving Clem, and his death comes right after Clem witnessed her parents as walkers. It was emotionally driven, much in the same way TLOU1 was in regards to its plot points and characters.
What… [view original content]
Not saying you can't kill off characters any other way in the world of TLOU, but this fits for Joel.
Yeah, killing Joel with a golf club is the most fitting death for a beloved character like him. That's like killing the main character with a fucking monitor. It reminded me of Final Destination 2. Not to mention, Joel was completely out-of-character to go with a girl he just met to a shelter full of strangers outside Jackson. Joel never trusted anybody in the first game, he knew when a stranger would pretend to be a victim. Yet he fell for an obvious trap. It's also Tommy's fault for being such an idiot to spell out their names and Joel doesn't even call him out for doing it.
Also saying things like "Ellie was in no way the villain" when that wasn't how the game portayed it.
Oh yeah? Then why was I playing as Abby against Ellie at the theater? That would be like playing as Micah in a shootout against Arthur Morgan and John Marston in Red Dead Redemption 2. That moment always makes me wonder: who is the fucking protagonist of this game? TLOU2 feels more like a full game and an expansion crammed into one.
What TLOU2 did feels like the equivalent of keeping Lee alive at the end of S1 (wasn't bit, but still ends up rescuing Clem and the two are … moreable to survive together for a while), Telltale confirms S2, markets it with Lee and Clem, saying it's going to be huge for both of their characters and relationship, only to kill Lee off at the hands of Michelle at the rest stop. Then the rest of his scenes that were teased and hinted at are nothing but flashbacks and dream sequences that actually work to develop their bond.
But it's not like that because they're different series with different tones. Not saying you can't kill off characters any other way in the world of TLOU, but this fits for Joel. And ANF did nothing for the story, Jane and Kenny only died because they had no place in the story of S3, they didn't push characters or plot forward in any meaningful way. TLOU 2 respects Joel and Ellie and their relationship, while Clem is a pitifu… [view original content]
So what should he die to? Just because a character is beloved doesn't mean they deserve special treatment, at least for this series. It fit very well. If Maria or Jesse or Lee died like that? It wouldn't make sense. Joel and Tommy were trapped in a blizzard and that was the best choice. In the final flashback he even mentions trading stuff for coffee, that's how Jackson operates. The girl didn't raise any alarm bells to him. He thought his choice to slaughter all the fireflies was self-contained and wouldn't come back to bite him, and he did survive for 4 years after that. Joel isn't some infamous gangster with a bounty on his head. Also, I know games don't do this often, but saying that Ellie was portrayed as the villain because you fight her.. idk about that argument. It's not like the example you gave either. Ellie is the protagonist and Abby is the secondary protagonist.
Lol ok ya got me. I thought I vaguely remembered that you mentioned you were playing the game for the first time a few weeks ago, but I was wrong on that too.
And then this game jumps back and throws me into a journey with Abby. Goddamn. This really is two games in one, isn't it?
I've got a lot of conflicting feelings about this, and maybe that's the point, but I think I'm finding myself somewhat open to the idea of experiencing Abby's side of the story.
For one thing, I've been taking my sweet time with this game, playing 2-3 hours per day, and after every night and coming back to the game, I've felt less enthused with the idea of MURDERMURDERMURDER and blind revenge for the sake of Joel. And I'm really just feeling sorry for Ellie at this point. She's still just a 19-year old girl, and going on this massive murder quest, killing so many WLF and then even Abby's friends, and with how deep she's thrown herself into Seattle, I'm just thinking: Ellie's probably had enough of all this killing and torture, and especially with how she seems even afraid of herself after torturing Nora, I think part of Ellie would want to go back to Jackson, but is convincing herself that because she's made it so far, she can't go back. She's already killed 5 of Abby's friends by the time she gets to the Marina, then has to go through drown-able waters to make it to the Aquarium, and... it's just really depressing, thinking back on it.
So by the time we jump back to Seattle Day 1, I'm feeling very confused and hurt and annoyed that we're playing as Abby -- the murderer of Jesse, cool guy who was starting to grow on me and Joel, awesome beloved character (who they also re-establish just a few seconds before with another flashback to Joel's death) -- and I'll be playing as her for the next 10 hours?? Holy shit, that's one BIG ASK of your fanbase, Naughty Dog.
At the moment, I'm sort of enjoying this section (just met Isaac, boy there's a lot of narrative in this chapter) but there's also the fact that we know all of Abby's friends are going to die, we know that she tracks Ellie to the Theater, and we know that Ellie is being held at gunpoint in a cliffhanger that won't be resolved for the next 10 hours. So there's definitely a sense of apathy and boredom that's creeping up on me, but I'm interested in seeing what Abby's quest is compared to Ellie's obvious Revenge plot, since she already completed hers back in Jackson. We know she gets thrown in a cell by Day 2. We know she goes to some island by Day 3 (and is nowhere near the Aquarium oops) but then manages to track Ellie back to the theater (or maybe by coincidence?) By god, this is going to be one weird segment.
I hope I enjoy it, or at least come to terms with it. Because from what I've read online, this section is the most divisive.
Some people say the like Abby by the end of the section.
Some say they don't like her, and the point isn't to "like her" just understand her motivations and story.
Some were bored the whole time. (Understandable given who/what she does in this story)
Some found her sections to be better gameplay-wise to Ellie.
He's still compelling and three-dimensional. The way they did it, there's little wrong with that. I only take issue with it because everyone… more else is taking issue with it, when there's literally no problem. People think that it wasn't clear that Joel was a changed man, even with everything we got. He wasn't 'reduced to a cheap plot device' either, before the game released I was worried that it was just going to turn into a cheap revenge story but now that it's out I think it was a good idea. Because this game is really the Part II of TLOU. What happens to Joel and Ellie's relationship afterward? How do Joel and Ellie grow past the ending of the first game? It is an unreasonable criticism to make.
I haven't watched the video so I'm not sure what argument you're refuting, but, unless I misunderstood and you're just completely opposed to the idea of killing him in the first place (which is a valid position to take mind you), what do you mean he is reduced to a plot device after his death? I mean, what is a character supposed to be after their deaths if not a plot device? They literally can't be a character anymore outside flashbacks, and any character development can't happen because, well, they're dead!
And, at least in my opinion, they kept Joel very true to his very three-dimensional Part 1 self during the flashbacks. He kept on protecting and caring for Ellie while at the same time lying to her face over and over, and, even when she finally discovered the truth, he still made no apologies for any of it, as the Joel we knew would.
I already wrote a comment on his video, but I'll repeat it here.
I feel like he misunderstands why people take issue with Joel's death. P… moreeople aren't mad simply because they killed him off. It's the way they killed him off. They took a compelling and three-dimensional character and then just reduced him to a cheap plot device for the sole purpose of enacting a revenge story. People are allowed to enjoy this game all they want, but I'm getting tired of people acting like this is a completely unreasonable criticism to make.
Just my two cents.
Die by doing what he couldn't do when Sarah died. Sacrificing himself to save Ellie. Now Joel and his daughter are both killed by merciless humans.
Joel and Tommy were trapped in a blizzard and that was the best choice
No, they fucking weren't. The infected were blocked when Abby told them to come with her. Tommy and Joel have been patrolling in Jackson for years, how could they not know their direction to the camp? Plus, Joel and Tommy came out of nowhere, they just conveniently happen to be in the same place with Abby.
In the final flashback he even mentions trading stuff for coffee, that's how Jackson operates.
That doesn't prove anything. We don't even know how the trading worked.
The girl didn't raise any alarm bells to him.
What do you mean by that?
Ellie is the protagonist and Abby is the secondary protagonist.
Then why is Ellie not playable for the second half of the game? Playing as Abby made me feel like I was playing a different game. The fact that Ellie killing Abby is game over instead of canon is the shittiest writing Naughty Dog has ever written. Why would anyone enjoy beating the shit out of Ellie? It's like playing as David to kill Ellie at the diner. Just because it doesn't bother you, doesn't mean the same goes to a lot of players.
I haven't watched the video so I'm not sure what argument you're refuting, but, unless I misunderstood and you're just completely opposed to… more the idea of killing him in the first place (which is a valid position to take mind you), what do you mean he is reduced to a plot device after his death? I mean, what is a character supposed to be after their deaths if not a plot device? They literally can't be a character anymore outside flashbacks, and any character development can't happen because, well, they're dead!
And, at least in my opinion, they kept Joel very true to his very three-dimensional Part 1 self during the flashbacks. He kept on protecting and caring for Ellie while at the same time lying to her face over and over, and, even when she finally discovered the truth, he still made no apologies for any of it, as the Joel we knew would.
I mean, in one situation there's a person who's clearly not injured slowly approaching them.
On the other there's a person who's about to get killed, who Joel had completely at his mercy, and a person that he ultimately chose to save. Then, considering there were a million infected surrounding them, they jump at the first opportunity to get shelter and numbers on their side.
They're two widely different situation with distinct nuances to them. It can't all be dumbed down to "joel no trust people". This game has problems, I just don't think how Joel dies is near the biggest of them.
Comments
Why is the metacritic user score getting higher? I wouldn't be surprised if they deleted as many troll reviews as possible.
Well, that would be fair, since the majority clearly haven't played or finished the game, be it 0s or 10s.
User scores suck and are easily manipulated. Doesn't really affect the overall reception of the game anyway.
I kinda wanted to just say one last thing about this game. I guess I wanted to kinda "change" what I originally was saying about my original view of the game after finishing it. I feel this game's story is being ripped apart for a lot of the wrong reasons. Is this game perfect and tell one of the best stories of all time? In my opinion no. But does it tell an overall well done story with something to say? Yes, and it seems so many people just ignore that, mostly because a lot of people cant get over one single scene. (Warning: very long and spoils.)
So many people seem to think this game is bad, horribly written, you name it, just because Joel dies and how he dies. This is so far from being a problem its honestly a bit ridiculous and I see too many people acting like they are master scribes who know exactly how they'd write this game's story, which for some reason becomes Joel not being brutally killed. Joel's death and how he dies is very crucial to this story. It is meant to make you feel uncomfortable, angry, and upset. Its a driving force for Ellie and actually shows an effect on Ellie and her character. The reveal later that Ellie's motivations also largely stem from the fact she is upset with herself for never truly reconciling with Joel and now it is too late is also very important and actually says something about us as people.
People also seem upset we don't actually kill Abby. I can understand this. Having Ellie kill Abby in the end might have done a better job of showing just how unworth it was to achieve that revenge once you return home to see that now you're all by yourself again, and how it isnt going to change the fact Joel is gone and Ellie never reconciled with him. But at the same time Ellie not killing Abby shows that Ellie is above her. Ellie can actually let it go which Abby never could, even though Ellie arguably had it worst as her last interaction with her loved one wasn't very positive, while Abby's was. But this is half the reason why Ellie even wants revenge so bad, she feels obligated to do it because of what she did to Joel and in doing so she believes it will bring her that feeling of reconcile she never had. But as she is drowning Abby she sees that last memory of Joel and realizes it won't change the truth that she never forgave Joel to his face- so why do it? Its selfish to make herself feel better, mirroring Joel's selfish choice of not letting Ellie choose if she would live or die in the hospital, and in doing so as she drowns Abby, she understands Joel's choice of doing anything for a loved one, and in a way she does "reconcile" with Joel as she now understands why he did it.
Then once we reach the farm house and Ellie can't play the guitar anymore, and how she leaves it behind is very obvious symbolism about how she will never see Joel again (just like how she can't play guitar again) so she decides she needs to move on, so she leaves the guitar behind (now leaving Joel behind.) She understands why Joel did what he did, and it is a bitter sweet ending. It is a good message about loving your loved ones and what you'll do for them, like I said before, a reminder to tell your loved ones you love them. Ellie was choosing to be mad at Joel and after he dies she realizes she never wanted to be mad at him, but she was mad because she couldnt truly understand why he did what he did, until that last moment as she was drowning Abby does she get it. She no longer had to drown Abby because she finally understood Joel and could truly forgive him. Now she returns home with regret about how their relationship could have ended on more friendly terms, but she understands she needs to continue living and go on with her life instead of dwelling on the past. It does honestly tell a great story.
Now obviously this game is far from perfect. I'll try to keep this stuff short so I don't repeat myself from before. There are a few glaring problems in my eyes. Those being structure and pacing. I'll start with pacing as its the most blatant flaw. A lot of this game feels stretched waaay out. It feels like it takes forever to reach the next narrative beat and even then sometimes it feels like it didnt move the story forward at all. So I do wish the game simply knew it was ok to cut things and get on with it. Next would be the structure. I wasn't that big of a fan of the flashback story telling, the only one that truly felt like it made absolute sense to do so is the final one with Joel and Ellie's last talk. Now before I talk a bit more in depth about how I would """fix""" the structure, please understand that it requires a lot more than just simply swapping x scene with y scene, it is not that simply of a fix. So keep that in mind as obviously there would need to be changes for the narrative to flow better.
I can't help but feel more people would have been more accepting of the plot, as well as the plot possibly just flowing better as a whole had it actually started with the past flashbacks that lead up to Ellie finding the truth, which then lead up to the party where Ellie yells at Joel.Then the start of the game plays, Joel dies, Abby leaves Jackson, and then after Abby falls asleep, where that first Joel museum flashback happens is where we then swap to Abby, and we continue to play as Abby but we go back to Ellie before Abby finds Owen and Mel dead. Ellie segment plays out the same, we kill Owen and Mel, return, return as Abby who finds them dead who then goes after Ellie, fight happens Ellie loses, flash forward to the farm and California, Ellie goes to Cali and plays out as we saw for the rest. Now obviously changes need to be made to make it all fit together and play together to work correctly as its easier said than done, obviously. But I do feel this structure would have helped the narrative. We already know that Ellie was upset with Joel at the start of the game so showing it and even knowing its because shes upset because she knows the truth all works out fine. The main thing that had to not be seen until the very end was their last scene. A big problem for me was simply because it felt like the game just straight up spoiled you for the Abby half of the game. The player already knows Ellie killed these people and it was hours ago, so its hard to really get that invested knowing what happens, but knowing about these characters and then having Ellie do it I feel would be more effective.
And there are some things that I dont really like much at all. Again Ill try to be short because repeating myself. A good amount of characters are very flat and really could have been more developed as I found myself not caring too much when they died (had it been structured differently I may have been.) I also found the California slave thing to be awkwardly placed in last minute. It was also a bit strange that Abby's suffering doesn't actually reflect Ellie's. Ellie's suffering is the result of her wanting revenge, but Abby's is kinda random, she just gets jumped by these slave people and suffers randomly, not because her revenge mission. Also in general I do think Abby's sections could have used more work. Like I said, Abby is a bit bland and I still think its weird they make Joel save Abby at the start but Abby never acknowledges what should make her question her actions. I also feel this is where the game begins to drag the narrative down a lot more as once you finish the game I cant help but feel the Abby section wasn't truly needed (at least in the way it was) as the ending is about Ellie and her change. But who knows, none of this can just be """fixed""" by just going "Oh well- I would actually do it this way!" because this narrative is a lot more complicated than that for quick """fixes."""
So yeah- I kinda just wanted to say that. There are so many narrative based video games these days that in all honesty are just so mediocre that for some reason get so much praise despite the fact they have the complexity and depth of a sandbox. So I find it refreshing that this game actually feels like it has something to say. Something that actually has some depth instead of being incredibly surface level. I originally said I would give this game a 6/10 but I feel saying that is a bit too low. After taking some more time to digest the story and just more time with the game I felt I should say this. This was also including the gameplay which I personally found to be not that good (especially because how glitchy it was for me.) So I figured I would rate it a bit differently after thinking about it a lot more. I also decided to be a bit more lenient on the gameplay. Even though I dont think the gameplay is that good, its serviceable and I dont think its fair for me to be so harsh on it for the glitches when it seems like Im the only one who had these problems. I figure I'll give it more of a grade rather than an X/10. Even though giving it a grade can still easily be translated to a X/10 I feel saying something like something out of 10 is too bold, so instead I think I'm going to say I think The Last Of Us 2 is a solid "B" but almost a B+. It has its issues for sure which keep it from truly being an A or A+ game, but is by far no where close being these super low scores a lot of people seem to think it is. If you think the story is truly awful, I'd recommended looking back at it. And its fine to not even like the game, but scores that are abysmally low I feel really discredit the actual value of this game.
Here is Angry Joe's short review of the game during a stream
Really glad Dunkey enjoyed it. Although his review wasn't a very good review because he didn't talk much about the story and themes.
I know what you mean but I cannot forgive the fact that Joel died by trusting strangers when in the first game, he never trusted anybody who weren't Tess, Bill, Ellie and Tommy. Remember when he didn't hesitate after he saw a bandit who was pretending to ask for help? Yep, didn't even take a breath for a sec. Also, when Ellie met David, she didn't trust him at all, she refused to say her name and rejected his suggestion of following him to his camp for medicine.
I was never a fan of this type of major story and character inconsistency in sequels. When you try to "subvert" expectations, you need to make sure those story details make sense first. People are always gonna ask how the twists worked, they are gonna look back into the story and find out how it all came together. If they stop at a part of the trail, then it's a problem.
The way Joel was killed was pretty much forced. Not just because he was out-of-character, but also because Abby didn't have any character moments at that part. Joel saved her life and she never thought about that. When a killer murdered someone I cared about but saved my life and were nice to me, I would have tried to negotiate with them first instead of just straight up take them by surprise. Then she asked him to guess who she was. Like, did she forget that they are in a goddamn zombie apocalypse? How is anyone supposed to recognize the companions of the people they killed when they never met them face-to-face to begin with? Also, how did she learn Joel's last name? There is NO ONE in the first game who mentioned Joel's family name. In fact, there are no family names mentioned in first game, except for the part when Joel warned Sarah about Jimmy Cooper and his family getting infected. Also also, Tommy and Marlene (In the flashbacks) never mentioned Joel's last name when Abby was present around them. What if she got the wrong Joel? Could have been Joel Murphy, Joel Johnson, Joel Baker, Joel anything etc. Abby never even asked him why he killed her father and just kills him. The only reason she didn't is to save it for the audience when they reach her story arc.
She never learns the fact that her dad is the one threatened Joel, who was pretty much armed with every deadly weapon he could possibly own, with a scrapel which resulted in his own death. When you're the most important person in a group who is trying to save the world, I think it's better to first make sure that you're alive, then you find out how to make a vaccine. Plus, he didn't even hesitate to wait for Ellie to wake up and let her think about the fact that she has to be sacrificed. He literally didn't care to have Ellie die thinking she saved the world. I don't even buy the fact that Jerry is the only one who knows how to save the world. What about the other doctors whose statuses are determinant? They never bring them up in the sequel, only when Joel entered the room.
The biggest problem of this game is obviously Abby's character. Her story arc didn't do anything to make us symphatize with her. She is just a regular survivor who is in a war and all she wanted to do in 4 years was kill the man who murdered her father. Why should we feel bad for her when everyone in the apocalypse lost their families? Joel had a worse experience than Abby did. She showed no sign of regret or sympathy for Joel. She was totally happy that he is dead. In fact, most of her story doesn't have many connections to Ellie's arc. I don't understand the point of making Abby's story just as long as Ellie's journey in the first half when we already know the fate of her companions apart from Manny and I'm sure there are many people who raged quit the game when they found out they were playing as Abby. Did anyone actually ask to play as the character who killed a beloved one? Abby could have had an arc like in GTA 4 Episodes from Liberty City where you play as 2 minor characters who were part of Niko Bellic's storyline but it's not similar at all.
The fact that we were forced to play as Abby to fight against Ellie at the theater almost made me remove the disc from my PS4 and break it. It makes me wonder: who is the protagonist of this game? It's not Ellie, it's not Joel, it's not Abby. Who is it? Who are we supposed to root for? I don't even know what this game is all about. It's a revenge story, without the specific character actually getting revenge. It's like if John Wick kills all of his enemies but spares his main target at the end of the film.
Even if I would still think this game was a mess, the ending would have been much better if Ellie actually listened to Dina and stayed with her new family. No matter how many people try to justify the ending we got, I will always think it's a disrespect to Joel's character. Joel did everything he could to keep Ellie alive, teaching her how to survive and how to swim, and what does she do in return? Letting his killer get away with what she did. Like seriously, she decided to go find Abby again and kill her this time but in the end, she didn't even do it and WHY? Because she saw Joel in her mind? Ellie provoked Abby in a fight and not even 10 minutes later, she changes her mind quicker than Darth Vader's redemption in Return of the Jedi. She didn't even care that she just lost 2 fingers from her left hand. I don't care if it doesn't bring Joel back and wouldn't be that worth it, Ellie should have finished what she started, there was no going back. Abby doesn't even say anything or show a sign of regret or sympathy for what she did to Ellie's life. She just walks away like nothing happened. And what award does Ellie get for doing that? Making her life even worse than before. Dina left the farmhouse with her baby, Tommy doesn't wanna talk with her anymore, Joel is dead, his killer is still alive and she doesn't have anything left.
This took me longer than it should have. But in the end, I think this game has some good ideas but the execution is just atrocious. I actually can't believe Neil Druckmann is the same guy who directed the first game, along with Bruce Straley. I was waiting for him to justify his choice for the story and he did not.
Yup I appreciate the flawed ambition. This game needed an additional writing team/editors and it would've been amazing. Half-baked is what I said before, but it's also unfocused. It's got a lot of subtle themes, complex characters and messaging and whatnot but all of that isn't communicated well enough. They had some nice ideas for the game but they weren't developed well-enough, like Abby and Lev/Yara. Playing as Abby is absolutely neccessary for things like the ending and for why revenge won't solve Ellie's problems, but they didn't focus enough on what needed to be focused on. So people give their analysis on the game and all the subtle stuff but the problem is most players won't get those feelings.
Also the reasoning behind Ellie's choice at the end isn't communicated clearly enough, so I can see why people think the ending is out of left-field. The events leading up to Joel's death too, some people say it makes perfect sense but it's clearly not enough for some people. I think the E3 Scene should've been at the start of the game to show his softer side, and Tommy should've called Joel's name out during the blizzard. It's sad because this game has genuine problems but I feel people are focusing on the wrong things, but again, I don't blame them when ND should've done a better job at communicating reasoning behind actions. This is a character-study game, characters over plot, and when players get confused at character-decisions (like the ending) I can't help but think maaybe they could've done a better job.
Maybe I'll write a list of what I would change later. This is a game that you'll remember for a while and can be discussed thoroughly, that's for sure.
Oh, and it's funny seeing r/TWDG getting angry at the game. "Why yes I think The Final Season's ending definitely made sense, what do you mean that was a plot-hole?"
I liked the story. Poogers already went over this but the biggest issue to me is how it's kinda inconsistent it is with its message: letting yourself getting consumed by revenge will destroy your life and in the end it won't even be worth it. This is very true for Ellie: she turns her back on a whole ass happy life with Dina and the baby because she let Abby be more important than them. She loses her fingers on top of that and in the end she left the whole ordeal more broken than what she was to begin with.
The issue with this is that Abby too is a main character who let revenge consume her, but lost incredibly little for it as a result (her relationship with Owen I guess? which is later rekindled so whatever). They used Abby's perspective to show us that the other side was human too and that pursuing revenge was causing pain even to people who weren't involved - I think that's fine and good to have there, sure, but I would think it'd even more important to use the second perspective as yet another example of someone who lost a great deal pursing vengeance. But the truth is, she just doesn't: she kills Joel, it goes without a hitch, and she just moves on with her life, goes back home, has sex, adopts a kid, etc.
The big theme of the game is greatly invalidated when you have these two outcomes coexist: a person pursues revenge and loses everything, but the other does it too and loses close to nothing. The only thing one can conclude from this is "the consequences of revenge are completely random, sometimes you get fucked, other times you don't!", which I don't think is what the game was trying to tell us.
Still, I can appreciate the attempt, and overall, I still loved revisiting this world. There's a lot of good to this game and I especially appreciate the worldbuilding on this. The Seattle conflicts were great, even if one of them (WLF vs FEDRA) we only experience as a result of exploration and reading leftover notes from that time. Even the news of Firefly groups reassembeling had me interested. I love TLOU's setting above everything else in the games and I kinda hope it's not abandoned due to all the gamer outrage.
I'm definitely not bored playing this game, and am really enjoying it thus far (I think I'm halfway through Day 2? About to head to the hospital and I remember that footage taking place at night.)
So far, at least in terms of the big moment,
Your thoughts on whether it's in character or not hinges on whether you believe a 4-year period in a comfortable, safe, community-oriented space can change a man like Joel. I do think the prologue was paced weird in also forcing you to inexplicably play as Abby, forcing her on a collision course with Joel for the sake of the story. Having that happen off-screen would have been more mysterious and probably pulled-off better. I'm sure I'll have more thoughts on structure once I'm further in/done with the story.
Pacing is a big issue with this game, though the flashbacks break up those constantly-dark moments very nicely.
By god, the flashback scenes are my absolute favourite parts of the game, probably because they're just more Joel+Ellie stuff, reminiscent on the first game's dynamic.
That Museum flashback had the biggest grin slapped on my face. Felt like it was ripped straight out of the first game with exploring a long-forgotten Old World landmark, Ellie learning more about the pre-aoocalypse and juxtaposing the cheery atmosphere with some dead ex-fireflies hiding out in there. Though I can't help but wonder that it's so much more powerful because of Joel's death/absence.
The setpieces in this game are interesting so far and help to break up the usual stealth/combat loop. (Though I've only encountered 2: the Prologue horde and the Truck Escape) They were unique and fun, and I'm interested to see what else they can come up with that feels grounded enough.
I love the wide-linear areas of the game, even though it leads to a lot to edit out as I record my impressions on this game, because I looove exploring this gorgeous game, reading notes (and the notes still have that melancholy charm of "welp, you're dead now, buddy. Sorry.")
And that's another thing. The game is awesomely beautiful. This is definitely the PS4's swan song as evidenced by the detail of environments, animations, motion capture, and how my PS4 constantly thinks its a jet engine.
The combat in this game is really fun. Enemy callouts and the wide spaces to traverse and stealth. I'm doing my best to only kill dogs if they get too close (my heart breaks hearing them squeal) and with recent footage of people pulling off awesome chain kills and even Uncharted 4-esque aerial kills, it's really cool.
Going back to the first game is going to make the combat there feel so... basic.
I will say there's a weird disconnect in gameplay and story in that we're right on Tommy's tail after seeing those fresh, tortured bodies, but we've had to find gate codes and take fuel detours, when it really seems like Tommy hasn't since we would have run into him by now.
Nah. Abby exists to show the aftermath of the revenge and how she still had bad dreams of her father. She absolutely lost a great deal. It's hinted at that she and Owen broke up because of her thirst for vengeance. She goes on to lose all of her friends because she killed her father's killer. Then she gets captured for months, gets beaten, tortured, maybe even raped. Hanged. Looks completely different. Then she gets forced to fight Ellie. I know that most of this stuff happened because of the Rattlers and isn't really related but I think she suffered enough and I absolutely don't get that impression.
Lol yeah whoever doesn't like this game shouldn't be complaining because they got a free jet engine.
"Abby exists to show the aftermath of the revenge and how she still had bad dreams of her father."
If that's her only purpose, fine I guess. I don't think we needed a whole section playing as her if that's all they intended for her to bring to the table.
As for she representing someone that suffered and lost a lot due to revenge? I still disagree. I held a different position before talking to some friends, but Abby losing all her friends doesn't really work because most, if not all of her friends, die as a result of their own actions. They either try to kill Ellie before Ellie ever tries to kill them (face scar dude, Owen and Mel) or get infected in the process of running away from her (Nora). There's no telling of what Ellie would do if they just gave her Abby's location, so it becomes hard to see their deaths as anything other than a scuffle Ellie had with any other WLF on her path to Abby. It's doesn't feel as personal as it needed to be as she doesn't really premeditate their deaths, they happen in the heat of the moment.
Furthermore, we don't really see Abby mourning anyone but Owen, and even that pain is short lived on screen. Their deaths don't leave any lasting impact on Abby that we can see. When we resume playing as her in Santa Barbara we see someone who is just... happy? healed? Someone who got a surrogate kid and that looks onward to a hopeful future with the Fireflies. She seems emotionally (and physically) unscuffed from anything that transpired but the loss of her father. She moved on from her revenge, all the pain and all the loss she endured, and it doesn't feel earned as we don't really see her going through any of it in a significant manner.
And that just really contrasts with Ellie who at the same time is unable to sleep knowing Abby is still alive and is still haunted by it all enough that she chooses to leave her newfound family behind for it. So I just question, why is that when both are guilty of the same crime: not letting go of revenge.
As for anything that happened with the slavers, it just really has nothing to do with anything. It's a random event separate from the chain of events Joel killing the Fireflies set in motion. Abby definitely suffered a great deal there, but not in any way that aids the theme of the game considering it wasn't brought onto herself from her past actions in any way shape or form.
I really don't hate Abby, I just think she was a tad misused. I think the concept of having these two characters that fight each other to the death on the last segment of the game, both broken by their quest to vengeance cool and solid, but I think for it to be perfect Abby's reasons for being broken should've been directly tied to what she did, and they just aren't.
Just finished Day 2 now. Boy, the story is getting intense, it certainly seems like we're getting to the climax and finale of this tale, but judging from current play time and what I've heard, I'm barely halfway through this thing.
Gosh, I'm doing my best not to kill the dogs. Their whimpers really sadden me, but mostly I've got to kill some of them as they're attacking me or right on my tail. The combat sections in this game are very wide and lots of room to navigate. It's so fun. That hospital section was my favourite part so far.
Fuck Stalkers. I hated those sections in the first game (since Listen Mode is basically useless and it's really hard to sneak up on them) but with this game's fancy new gory graphics and lots of atmosphere... boy, was that office building section tense -- followed immediately by a spore-infested office building and a Clicker, to boot.
Really glad to see the Scars make an appearance -- finally. They've been teased so much, so it's great to have a payoff (and a really jump-scary one at that. Damn arrow.) Those whistles are pretty creepy, though I wonder if there's a meaning behind them if you pay attention.
And maybe it's because I've been taking my sweet, sweet time with this game since Friday, but I'm not really feeling the lust for revenge anymore, mostly. I feel sorry for every NPC caught in the crossfire of Ellie's murder spree (since they didn't kill Joel) though with the main murderous group, sure, love to see Ellie give them some comeuppance, but I'm sad that Ellie is destroying her mental health to do it. I don't think she'll stop till she has Abby in her crosshairs.
On the topic of Abby, it's interesting to note that Abby was mentioned to have escaped "from her cell". Now that's weird. I thought she was totally with the WLF, or high in command or something. But no? Maybe not? Hmmm. Interesting.
Also, a quick PSA: Reminder that we are not and will never be as smooth as StealthGamerBR. Finally working his stealthy magic on this game, making really awesome plays. (Rabbit's Respawn is also a big TLOU stealth pro. Can't wait for him to tackle this game, too.)
And holy cow, there's whole sections of the map here I never knew existed! I just passed by or went on a different route, I guess.
Some details that I liked in the game/stuff that I forgot to say:
I like how there are so many cards and flowers by Joel's house. Really shows how he's a changed man. Seeing that he had the 'Idiots Guide to Space' book made me tear up. I think I remember seeing Ellie struggling to draw Joel's face as time passes. She should've worn 'Joel's clothes' at the Santa Barbara section. I also thought that was the worst looking part of the game. I liked seeing some more TLOU 1 Ellie snark with the rattlers. Did anyone else get duped by the fake Abby at the end? ND aren't good with fist-fights, that should've been a QTE section.
The more I thought about the ending, the more I hate it.
If Ellie didn't want to go and kill Abby once and for all, then why didn't she listen to Dina in the first place? Ellie knew that going after Abby again would result losing her new family and she doesn't even accomplish her mission while she had the chance which is such a disrespect to Joel's character. Ellie brought this on herself for being such an idiot and ending up alone. I feel no symphaty for her.
She had PTSD, she said she can't sleep and can't eat. Obviously in real-life this answer doesn't work but it's the world of The Last Of Us. Ellie says she can't go on much longer like this, she thinks seeking out Abby again will give her closure.
And Much, check out Much on twitter.
This is a pretty good review that I agree with almost entirely from gameplay to story and peoples reactions to the story as a whole, if you got the time I'd recommended giving it a watch
I already wrote a comment on his video, but I'll repeat it here.
I feel like he misunderstands why people take issue with Joel's death. People aren't mad simply because they killed him off. It's the way they killed him off. They took a compelling and three-dimensional character and then just reduced him to a cheap plot device for the sole purpose of enacting a revenge story. People are allowed to enjoy this game all they want, but I'm getting tired of people acting like this is a completely unreasonable criticism to make.
Just my two cents.
Wtf Indiana Ellie
That's a pretty fair point which is why I agree with this video how the game really shouldnt have been so flashback heavy and Joel's death probably should have been more around the 6 hour mark. But Joel doesnt just "die for revenge plot" because as the story goes on, it becomes much more clear Ellie is less so about wanting revenge on Abby but more so thinking doing so will make her feel better about not forgiving Joel, meaning shes really doing it for herself. Being a cheap plot device would be if Joel only dies to send you on a revenge mission, then we kill Abby the end. It has a lot more important meaning behind it that is character driven by Joel and Ellie's relationship even though Joel is no more. Obviously its all subjective and people are going to like and dislike different things, and I can obviously get why people dont like Joel dying. But I think this review is correct where too many people look at it in the most surface level of ways.
I agree that the discourse surrounding this game is a joke. I will not argue otherwise. The people who act like this is the worst thing to ever happen in the history of the video game industry are obnoxious. But the people who act like it's totally flawless and that it's illegitimate to take issue with its storytelling decisions are just as bad.
Completely agreed. I pretty much knew Joel was going to die, it was a feeling I had when watching the original promo material, even before the leaks came out. I figured it would happen, but so long as it was tastefully done and the character was respected, I'd be fine with it. That is not what happened, because the way it goes down does feel out of character and downright insulting.
I'll use Lee as a fitting example here. Lee's death was one that respected both the character and the audience, it was handled very well and delivered on the major themes present throughout the game and final episode. It left players upset, but for the right reasons, we saw a character we cared about die right before our eyes after he performed a true act of heroism in saving Clem, and his death comes right after Clem witnessed her parents as walkers. It was emotionally driven, much in the same way TLOU1 was in regards to its plot points and characters.
What TLOU2 did feels like the equivalent of keeping Lee alive at the end of S1 (wasn't bit, but still ends up rescuing Clem and the two are able to survive together for a while), Telltale confirms S2, markets it with Lee and Clem, saying it's going to be huge for both of their characters and relationship, only to kill Lee off at the hands of Michelle at the rest stop. Then the rest of his scenes that were teased and hinted at are nothing but flashbacks and dream sequences that actually work to develop their bond. Yes, S2 did that in No Going Back, but the game was never meant to focus on Lee and Clem, but on Clem solely. And hell, we did see how something similar ended up playing out thanks to ANF with both Kenny and Jane: two characters people cared about being thrown away in a short amount of time in ways that feels disrespectful to both of them.
Right now, it seems like the extreme defenders of this game are going down the same route as the extreme defenders of The Last Jedi, in that they think it's genius, and if you don't agree, than you're too stupid to understand and use a bunch of straw man arguments to lump you into a certain crowd. Hell, it seems like Neil, Naughty Dog, and some of the voice actors are doing exactly that already. I gave a pretty detailed reason earlier why I didn't enjoy the game and why I gave it a 4/10, and I've said the same thing elsewhere, hasn't stopped people from saying I'm just a bigoted hater who wanted to see the game fail. Because THAT'S the group some people want to use to characterize anyone who criticizes the game and cover up the game's shortcomings, and it's completely unfair.
What a waste of time...
I spent so much time waiting for the moment Joel finally delivered Ellie to the Fireflies and then he goes and kills all of them and goes back to Jackson with Ellie. Why didn't they just stay there earlier and end the game there? 1 out of 10.
This is to show the game ain't all happy endings, and how broken of a man Joel is.
He's developed such a bond with Ellie, coupled with his fear of losing another prominent daughter-figure in his life (the grief, loneliness, and descent into darkness that happened after with Sarah) that he is willing to murder his way through the Fireflies to get her back and keep her safe.
Then it's all up to your interpretation of what Joel did was 'right' or not. That's the beauty of it.
Was it worth saving one person so a guy could retain his sanity, but in doing so "doom the human race"?
Ellie was unconscious after nearly drowning, and the Fireflies quickly got her to surgery. Isn't that a bit unethical as well? Especially in that she would have to die to get the mutated virus out.
Do you think Ellie would have accepted to be operated on even if it would kill her? Would Joel have accepted her consent?
Would the cure even work? It's never been done before, and yet the Fireflies all believe this is the big moment that would change the world. How would they distribute the cure? Would people want the world to go "back to normal"?
And at the very end: Did Ellie believe Joel when he said the Fireflies stopped looking for a cure, that it didn't work or that there were other people they could find instead?
Considering your stance on this issue... you actually might enjoy the sequel. The brutality is a bit much, but it certainly addresses your concerns with the ending of the first game.
...I should have made it clear it was joke based on some things I've seen people say XD
Yeah, the discussion surrounding this game is very reminiscent of The Last Jedi or Game of Thrones Season 8. I guess every year or two, there's always gonna be that one piece of media that just really pisses people off and sparks a cavalcade of arguments between two extremes.
He's still compelling and three-dimensional. The way they did it, there's little wrong with that. I only take issue with it because everyone else is taking issue with it, when there's literally no problem. People think that it wasn't clear that Joel was a changed man, even with everything we got. He wasn't 'reduced to a cheap plot device' either, before the game released I was worried that it was just going to turn into a cheap revenge story but now that it's out I think it was a good idea. Because this game is really the Part II of TLOU. What happens to Joel and Ellie's relationship afterward? How do Joel and Ellie grow past the ending of the first game? It is an unreasonable criticism to make.
But it's not like that because they're different series with different tones. Not saying you can't kill off characters any other way in the world of TLOU, but this fits for Joel. And ANF did nothing for the story, Jane and Kenny only died because they had no place in the story of S3, they didn't push characters or plot forward in any meaningful way. TLOU 2 respects Joel and Ellie and their relationship, while Clem is a pitiful poster-child of the cash cow that is TWD. She only remembers Lee, doesn't mention Christa. Characters dying doesn't do anything for her, off the top of my head the only deaths that did that were Lee and Omid. I'm sorry that people called you a bigot, that's not right.
Also I can respect some of your detailed reasoning for why you thought the game was 4/10 but some stuff seemed a little off, like saying Abby doesn't become apologetic or regret what she did to Joel, or that she got off "practically scot-free", that she "goes through no growth" or that the theater ambush fight was "immensely stupid". Also saying things like "Ellie was in no way the villain" when that wasn't how the game portayed it.
Yeah, killing Joel with a golf club is the most fitting death for a beloved character like him. That's like killing the main character with a fucking monitor. It reminded me of Final Destination 2. Not to mention, Joel was completely out-of-character to go with a girl he just met to a shelter full of strangers outside Jackson. Joel never trusted anybody in the first game, he knew when a stranger would pretend to be a victim. Yet he fell for an obvious trap. It's also Tommy's fault for being such an idiot to spell out their names and Joel doesn't even call him out for doing it.
Oh yeah? Then why was I playing as Abby against Ellie at the theater? That would be like playing as Micah in a shootout against Arthur Morgan and John Marston in Red Dead Redemption 2. That moment always makes me wonder: who is the fucking protagonist of this game? TLOU2 feels more like a full game and an expansion crammed into one.
So what should he die to? Just because a character is beloved doesn't mean they deserve special treatment, at least for this series. It fit very well. If Maria or Jesse or Lee died like that? It wouldn't make sense. Joel and Tommy were trapped in a blizzard and that was the best choice. In the final flashback he even mentions trading stuff for coffee, that's how Jackson operates. The girl didn't raise any alarm bells to him. He thought his choice to slaughter all the fireflies was self-contained and wouldn't come back to bite him, and he did survive for 4 years after that. Joel isn't some infamous gangster with a bounty on his head. Also, I know games don't do this often, but saying that Ellie was portrayed as the villain because you fight her.. idk about that argument. It's not like the example you gave either. Ellie is the protagonist and Abby is the secondary protagonist.
Cute. I didn't know you could climb the dinosaur.
Lol ok ya got me. I thought I vaguely remembered that you mentioned you were playing the game for the first time a few weeks ago, but I was wrong on that too.
Okay, so I finished the first 3 Seattle Days.
And then this game jumps back and throws me into a journey with Abby. Goddamn. This really is two games in one, isn't it?
I've got a lot of conflicting feelings about this, and maybe that's the point, but I think I'm finding myself somewhat open to the idea of experiencing Abby's side of the story.
For one thing, I've been taking my sweet time with this game, playing 2-3 hours per day, and after every night and coming back to the game, I've felt less enthused with the idea of MURDERMURDERMURDER and blind revenge for the sake of Joel. And I'm really just feeling sorry for Ellie at this point. She's still just a 19-year old girl, and going on this massive murder quest, killing so many WLF and then even Abby's friends, and with how deep she's thrown herself into Seattle, I'm just thinking: Ellie's probably had enough of all this killing and torture, and especially with how she seems even afraid of herself after torturing Nora, I think part of Ellie would want to go back to Jackson, but is convincing herself that because she's made it so far, she can't go back. She's already killed 5 of Abby's friends by the time she gets to the Marina, then has to go through drown-able waters to make it to the Aquarium, and... it's just really depressing, thinking back on it.
So by the time we jump back to Seattle Day 1, I'm feeling very confused and hurt and annoyed that we're playing as Abby -- the murderer of Jesse, cool guy who was starting to grow on me and Joel, awesome beloved character (who they also re-establish just a few seconds before with another flashback to Joel's death) -- and I'll be playing as her for the next 10 hours?? Holy shit, that's one BIG ASK of your fanbase, Naughty Dog.
At the moment, I'm sort of enjoying this section (just met Isaac, boy there's a lot of narrative in this chapter) but there's also the fact that we know all of Abby's friends are going to die, we know that she tracks Ellie to the Theater, and we know that Ellie is being held at gunpoint in a cliffhanger that won't be resolved for the next 10 hours. So there's definitely a sense of apathy and boredom that's creeping up on me, but I'm interested in seeing what Abby's quest is compared to Ellie's obvious Revenge plot, since she already completed hers back in Jackson. We know she gets thrown in a cell by Day 2. We know she goes to some island by Day 3 (and is nowhere near the Aquarium oops) but then manages to track Ellie back to the theater (or maybe by coincidence?) By god, this is going to be one weird segment.
I hope I enjoy it, or at least come to terms with it. Because from what I've read online, this section is the most divisive.
"It's an unreasonable criticism because it personally doesn't bother me" is not a good argument, but alright.
I haven't watched the video so I'm not sure what argument you're refuting, but, unless I misunderstood and you're just completely opposed to the idea of killing him in the first place (which is a valid position to take mind you), what do you mean he is reduced to a plot device after his death? I mean, what is a character supposed to be after their deaths if not a plot device? They literally can't be a character anymore outside flashbacks, and any character development can't happen because, well, they're dead!
And, at least in my opinion, they kept Joel very true to his very three-dimensional Part 1 self during the flashbacks. He kept on protecting and caring for Ellie while at the same time lying to her face over and over, and, even when she finally discovered the truth, he still made no apologies for any of it, as the Joel we knew would.
Die by doing what he couldn't do when Sarah died. Sacrificing himself to save Ellie. Now Joel and his daughter are both killed by merciless humans.
No, they fucking weren't. The infected were blocked when Abby told them to come with her. Tommy and Joel have been patrolling in Jackson for years, how could they not know their direction to the camp? Plus, Joel and Tommy came out of nowhere, they just conveniently happen to be in the same place with Abby.
That doesn't prove anything. We don't even know how the trading worked.
What do you mean by that?
Then why is Ellie not playable for the second half of the game? Playing as Abby made me feel like I was playing a different game. The fact that Ellie killing Abby is game over instead of canon is the shittiest writing Naughty Dog has ever written. Why would anyone enjoy beating the shit out of Ellie? It's like playing as David to kill Ellie at the diner. Just because it doesn't bother you, doesn't mean the same goes to a lot of players.
Compare this scene to the one from TLOU2. Is it the same Joel we know?
I mean, in one situation there's a person who's clearly not injured slowly approaching them.
On the other there's a person who's about to get killed, who Joel had completely at his mercy, and a person that he ultimately chose to save. Then, considering there were a million infected surrounding them, they jump at the first opportunity to get shelter and numbers on their side.
They're two widely different situation with distinct nuances to them. It can't all be dumbed down to "joel no trust people". This game has problems, I just don't think how Joel dies is near the biggest of them.