A thought to the Bolton and Forrester alliance
If the Forresters became good allies of the Boltons maybe they could have a shot of taking the 7 kingdoms. Roose and Ramsay are way more intelligent and better tacticians than Robb ever was and now that Tywin Lannister is dead there's no one who could take on the North except for Cersei who isn't on Ramsay or Roose's level intelligence wise.and The Forresters would be a great vanguard. I see a northern rebellion in Season 6 which would mean it would probably happen in S3 of TT GOT. But with Asher and Rodrik dead at this point (most likely) who would be strong enough to make the decisions?
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Lord Ryon Forrester since he is the final remaining male that has the alive status, if telltale do not decide to make him determinant in ep 6. If that happens idk Gared comes back marries Talia then becomes lord,well all I know there in a akemward position if he's killed
I'm not sure why you think Roose or Ramsay are better tacticians than Robb ever was. Or at all. Robb won every battle he fought, he fooled Tywin on the battlefield by letting his scout report back that 20,000 men were on the move when he only sent 2,000 Tywin's way, and the remaining 18,000 to Jamie's army and captured Jamie himself.
Roose was Robb's bannerman and betrayed him by selling him out to Tywin in return for being named Warden of the North. Robb and most of his army were slaughtered at a wedding, at which they had guest right, betrayed by people they thought were allies. They didn't die on a battlefield, they were sabotaged. Which is why "the north will never forget" got thrown around a lot, because while the Boltons hold Winterfell and Roose is the Warden, he got that and held that because of his alliance with Tywin and now Tywin is dead. He has no allies left save maybe the Freys, who do not have a formidable army and Walder Frey is notoriously loathe to send his troops into battle. Everyone for hundreds of miles hates the Boltons. They are in hostile territory with no powerful allies left to back them up.
Did Ramsay defeat Stannis's army? Yes - what little was left of it. The army Stannis brought north was almost entirely comprised of sellswords. He lost most of his bannermen at Blackwater Bay. That's why he and Davos had to go to Braavos, to get a loan from the iron bank to hire soldiers.
They got stuck in a snowstorm and Ramsay took twenty good men and set the tents housing his supplies on fire, so he had no choice but to press forward. Was that a good trick? Yes. Clever? Yes. But then [SPOILERS FOR THE SHOW AHEAD] he burnt his daughter alive at the stake. And most of his army took their remaining horses and bounced. They weren't his bannermen. They weren't loyal to him, they were hired swords, fighting for gold, not honor. They didn't believe in the Lord of Light. They saw an increasingly desperate man digging in his heels and burning his daughter alive while they were cold and starving and decided this shit wasn't worth it. So the army Ramsay defeated at the gates of Winterfell was no true army, just the few remaining hungry, tired stragglers still following Stannis. Hardly a battle for the ages.
So what do you have? Roose, who got what he wanted by being a cold blooded turncloak willing to stoop to sabotage. Ramsay, who pulled off one clever trick by setting things on fire and then slaughtered what remained when Stannis kept coming anyway, an easy victory. Neither of them have commanded armies against formidable enemies, neither of them have strategized battles and troop movements, so I wouldn't call them great tacticians and I certainly wouldn't say they did it better than Robb, who did all those things and did them well.
Anyway, why on earth would the Forresters want to ally themselves with the Boltons? Ramsay put a dagger through Ethan's neck. I doubt they will forget that ever, let alone a couple Telltale seasons from now.
I would rather be massacred than side with the Boltons. Long live Stannis!
Alllll of this, and let's not forget that the Glenmores are ultimately sworn to the Boltons and that made a hill of beans of difference for poor Arthur. I'm not sure why we'd want to ally ourselves with the sort of people who would flay their own basically ally, even if he wasn't exactly in practice since he and Elaena did go some hella sort of rogue. I think the Forresters are better off alone if the Boltons are their choice of allies.
If Gared comes back to Ironrath he'll be killed for breaking his vows
And made all the wrong decisions...
Who wouldn't at that point? Robb had already lost so many men for beheading Karstark and pissing off Walder Frey. He was losing the war and he knew it
Well most of the northern houses are sworn to them. Most northern houses hate the Lannisters as well as the Tyrells and the Martells. Plus the Lannisters are in a weaker state as they've ever been. If they allied themselves with the Tyrells they could starve the capital out.
Any time 20 men defeat an army of thousands you know something is wrong. I wouldn't undermine Ramsay's victory so easily. See Renly's army would have taken the North and the 7 kingdoms . Anyway Ramsay and his 20 good men still had an easier time curbstomping Stannis' army with no casualties opposed to the thousands who lost their lives at the Blackwater
It would be for power and what's best for the house. That way they can dig themselves out of the sticks and become a greater house
I don't think you really understand the Forresters.... And even if they (HIGHLY UNLIKELY) allied with the Boltons, there is no why in hell they could take the 7 kingdoms. Or did you forget the 70,000 strong Lannister/Tyrell army? And the potential vale army coming to Winterfell? Or better yet, the 8,000 Manderlys who are the most powerful, rich and loyal house to the Starks in the North. Oh, and winter is coming....
I thought the Manderlys bent the knee. Anyway the Tyrell and Lannister forces are at eachother's heads at this point even Tyrion said it. Plus most people loathe the Lannisters. The Boltons would have High Garden, A lot of the North and Dorne backing them if they played their cards right. Plus the Forresters are already suffering and can't afford to wait on Dany so why not pick the winning team?
First of all, Robb did not make "all the wrong decisions," he made two questionable ones.
Karstark went behind Robb's back and slaughtered two prisoners of war, who happened to be children, without his knowledge or consent, because he knew Robb would never let him. Karstark was so angry at the death of his son and Cat letting Jamie escape that his mind was clouded with vengeance and he took it out on the only two Lannisters he could get his hands on, who happened to be frightened teenage boys. Again, defying the man he had declared as his King. Such an act is treason, and the punishment for treason is death. Robb had already let one act of treason slide, because he wasn't about to behead his mother. Should he let Lord Karstark go unpunished, his men would start questioning his leadership, wondering if he really did have what it took to be King, or if they or anyone else could just do as they pleased and not be held accountable. Yet, Robb knew it would cost him the loyalty of the Karstark bannermen. It was a tough call, but ultimately Karstark brought that upon himself when he decided child murder and treason was acceptable and underestimated Robb's willingness to dole out justice. Had he not done it, there would have been consequences for that too.
Secondly: breaking his oath to Walder Frey and marrying Talisa. Let's remember something here: Robb is 17, maybe 18 years old in this show. I dont know how old you are, and if you haven't experienced it yet or don't remember it, but your first love, your first real, true love when you're a teenager, feels like the biggest, most consuming, most important thing in the universe. It's all consuming and love is never as dramatic as it is at that age, when it first happens. I can forgive him for that. I am not so old that I have completely forgotten how it felt. Was it a dumb move and should he have kept his oath? Of course. Then again, I don't know any 17 year old who would have this thrust upon him, lead an army and go to war, have your people declare you king, fall in love, and not make a mistake or two.
But let's remember a few things here - this is a 17 year old boy in love, but this is also a 17 year old boy who has been trained for Lordship, who has excellent tactical skills (if he didn't, the Lannister army would have just defeated him in combat instead of resorting to betrayal and subterfuge - Tywin is a seasoned war commander yet didn't manage to win a single battle on the field against Robb). He is a 17 year old who has inspired fierce loyalty and devotion among his troops, and the respect of men old enough to be his father. That's remarkable and respectable.
Did he know breaking his oath would have repercussions? Of course he did. Would he ever have imagined in a million years that Walder Frey would retaliate by slaughtering him, his wife, his mother, his unborn grandchild, his wolf, and much of his army at a wedding in which he had been given the guest right protection of bread and salt? Of course not. That is a wildly disproportionate response for breaking a promise you made to cross a goddamn bridge. He had no reason to think the reparations he made with Walder of the betrothal of Arya to one of his sons and Edmure to one of his daughters was anything more than what it appeared - a way to pay Walder back for breaking his vow.
You talk like Robb was some idiot who never did anything right and no one respected him and he walked right into a trap of his own making that he should have seen coming, and I'm sorry, that's just not true.
Next point: Who wouldn't sell Robb out to Tywin at that point? Um, anyone with honor (which maybe you haven't noticed but is kind of a big deal in this world they are in) and every single other man from the north who could have but didn't.
You say he was losing the war as if it was a foregone conclusion, but it was anything but. Yes the Karstarks left but had Frey been reasonable and allied with them instead of filling them with crossbows, they could have taken Casterly Rock. The war was not already lost.
The northern houses are sworn to the Boltons because they are sworn to the Warden of the North by default. That don't mean shit, sorry. The Starks held that seat for thousands of years. They were beloved and respected and inspired loyalty. The Boltons were directly responsible for the slaughter of fighting men in pretty much every northern house at the Red Wedding. What do you think that inspires? If you don't see a northern rebellion coming to oust the Boltons at some point, you're not paying attention.
I'm not sure who you're talking about when you say "if they could ally with the Tyrells they could starve the capital out?" Who is they? The Boltons? The Forresters? First of all, why would the Tyrells ally with the Boltons to starve the capital out, since Margaery Tyrell is now queen of the Seven Kingdoms? What are you even talking about here?
Back to Ramsay - he didn't curbstomp Stannis's army with no casualties. He didn't defeat then with 20 men. He snuck in with 20 men and set some shit on fire, making a bad situation for Stannis worse, which I acknowledged already was a clever trick. But Stannis defeated himself when he set his adorable nine year old daughter on fire in front of a bunch of soldiers who weren't there out of loyalty and weren't there because they believed in the god she was sacrificed to. That's why Stannis lost his army and his cavalry. Had he not done that, he would have had a much more formidable force going forward to Winterfell and Ramsay would not have had such an easy victory. He'd have had a real battle on his hands. As it is, even with that meager, starving, tired, cold, band of foot soldiers Stannis took with him, I guarantee you Ramsay's army suffered casualties too.
Lastly: you think the Forresters would forgive Ramsay killing Ethan for a chance to grab more power? Do you think power is the only thing anyone in Westeros cares about? Do you think every house wants to sit on the Iron Throne? I'm genuinely asking here because all you seem to recognize or be interested in is who can gain the most power and be more ambitious. Again, in this world, honor means an awful lot. And honorable houses don't forsake honor for gold, or land, or a bigger castle. I cannot imagine a world in which the Forresters decide teaming up with the very same people who killed their teenage lord in cold blood was a perfectly acceptable thing to do for "power." And they don't need the Boltons to dig themselves out of the hole, they just need the Whitehills out of the way and their ironwood groves back. They've been doing just fine for millennia and they'll be just fine again. What they have is a valuable commodity, a noble house, good and loyal subjects, and peace. Like Ned Stark in the beginning, I don't think the Forresters have great ambitions beyond the considerable amount of comfort, wealth, and local power they already have. I don't think they want to go to King's Landing and even if they did, they certainly would team up with the Boltons to get there.
Again, I don't really think you understand the Forresters if you legit believe that they would willingly bent the knee to the Boltons out of greed. The North remembers, the Manderlys are conspiring with other northern houses to bring Rickon back to place him in Winterfell. And how in Rhollor's name would the Boltons take Highgarden? The Tyrells have over 50,000 knights and the most bountiful lands in the 7 kingdoms. The Boltons have less then 10,000 men in mail.
To be fair, he should have listened to his mother and there is no way he was going to win the war after beheading Karstark.
I acknowledge that it made it much harder, and I'm not arguing that it was the right thing to do, just that letting Karstark off after also letting his mother's treason slide would also have repercussions.
I also don't think it was impossible to win after he did that, though. Do you remember the scene in which he's talking to Cat about it, and comes up with the idea of taking Casterly Rock? They make the point that they need more men and the only army left not fighting for one side of the war or another were the Freys. "If Walder Frey cooperates..." And ultimately, Cat is all for this plan, when Robb finally decides to listen to his mother after acknowledging at the beginning of the conversation that he hadn't been, and it had cost him.
I'm not saying he didn't make mistakes. I'm just tired of hearing, oh, Robb was an idiot and a terrible leader and did everything wrong, when I think for a 17 year old boy who had all this thrust upon him unexpectedly, he did remarkably well and should be given a lot of credit for all the things he did right. My father spent 30 years in the Army, he is a retired Colonel who fought in Vietnam, earned a bronze star, taught at the US Army War College... I am by no means an expert on military strategy, but I grew up in a military culture and I recognize the type of person who is able to inspire devotion and loyalty in the men following him, and Robb had that. Being 17 and having the respect of men as old as or older than your father willing and wanting to follow you is not a small thing and I feel like people overlook that a lot. I also know that in war you have to make a lot of tough choices, and had Robb not delivered the prescribed justice to Karstark, he might have lost the respect of his troops or his bannermen might have started making decisions on their own and then people would be arguing that Robb was an idiot because he was too soft to lead and step up when he had to and make the hard decisions.
Or Rest in Peace if the producers are to be believed.
WHY can I not give this comment a thumbs up
I am blaming it on my phone's recent iOS9 upgrade which seems to have borked a lot of things
So, uh, thumbs up to this, man
Roose lost the only battle in which he commanded, all of the North except the Dustins and Barbreys hate the Boltons and are conspiring against them, and the Barbreys and Dustins aren't that fond of the Boltons anyway, and would probably desert if the rest of the North was united against Roose. That leaves him with just the Freys, since Tywin is dead and the Lannisters are tied up in the Riverlands and won't be able to get north of the Neck before winter. Even if Roose managed to hold the North, which he cannot do, the North is the least populous of the Seven Kingdoms, save possibly for Dorne, and I don't know how you think they can convince the Tyrells to form an alliance when Margaery is already married to King Tommen, if she isn't killed by the Faith. Roose has no one to offer the Tyrells for a marriage pact, since he needs to keep up Ramsay's marriage to a Stark to lend himself legitimacy, and he has no other children. The Tyrells would gain nothing from such an alliance. Roose will not even be able to hold the North, because as soon as Davos finds Rickon, the Manderlys are gone, and all the other Northern lords too. If the Forresters manage to survive the season, they won't ally with the Boltons, they will probably be one of the houses fighting against them, if they still have the strength.
I thought the North was the third least populous, followed by the Iron Islands than Dorne?
Yeah you're right. I forgot about the Iron Islands. Although after the North lost a war, they might be down quite a bit, but yeah the Iron Islands are still probably smaller in population.
So what? Tommen is a figurehead and everyone knows it. It's always been Tywin or Cersei pulling the strings. The Tyrells did poison her son and she imprisoned Loras and Margaery. Even Tyrion said the Tyrells would most likely back Dany against the Lannisters so why not the Boltons? The Boltons hold the largest kingdom out of all other kingdoms combined and it surely has it's uses. The Dornish and the Lannisters seem to be headed to war anyway with the loss of Elia, Oberyn and the poisoning of Myrcella. So why not coexist and take King's Landing?
Yeah... as much as Rodrik/Asher/Ryon (gods forbid) may want to pardon Gared, I'm not sure they can.
Technically nobody would force their hands, but the other northern people would look down on them if they spared Gared. They take breaking the Night's Watch vows pretty seriously, and the last thing the Forresters need is more people hating them.
Okay first Cersei is not married to Tommen, I know she's into incest but you might want to edit that.
Tommen is a figurehead but the whole point of Margaery's aspirations to become queen is for the power that comes with that and for HER to be able to pull the strings. The Tyrell-Lannister alliance is what is holding the kingdom together so WHY would the Tyrells want to put the Boltons in power? The TYRELLS ALREADY HAVE THE POWER.
Cersei doesn't know Oleanna poisoned Joffrey, she thinks it was Tyrion. She's also no longer queen but queen regent and losing power every day.
So she armed the faith militant in order to hit back at Margaery by imprisoning Loras, because Margaery has a lot more control over Tommen now and Cersei didn't like it.
Unfortunately, that was incredibly short sighted because when you tell a bunch of religious fanatics to dole out justice and not even royalty is above their grasp, and you've been scheming and plotting and sleeping with your cousin who you KNOW is one of those very same religious fanatics now, you can't be surprised when those same religious fanatics who you told was okay to arrest nobility throw your incestuous ass in jail and then parade you naked through the streets in the longest walk of shame there ever was. Cersei should have seen that coming, because I sure did the moment she told the High Sparrow that nobility are equal to commoners in the eyes of God. But as much as she likes to think she's a brilliant strategist like her father, she's not, she's short sighted and impulsive and vindictive. And now she has very little, and her Uncle Kevan commands the Lannister army and made it very clear he's not interested in being one of her pawns.
Margaery's fate remains to be seen, but she is still queen and it is still the Tyrells that are keeping the city from starving and rioting.
What do you think the Boltons have, exactly? A whole lot of land, about to enter winter, not a big army, and no allies. Yet you seem to think they have all this power and all these houses would be clamoring to ally with them, but what do any of those houses get out of it?
Look I don't mean to be condescending here but you seem to have a seriously poor grasp on how politics work in Westeros and why alliances are made.
^^ this
Nope.
In the words of my Gared from Episode 1.
"FUCK THE BOLTONS!"
True
Ramsey isn't that smart tbh. It's just Roose who's a genius.