I must say, I interpreted it with Jack having a very odd sense of gratitude. He must've thought, "hey, this boy worships me and he actually trusted me so let's give him what he wants, after that I'll call back the favor". I think Jack genuniely wanted to "repay" Rhys for the trust, giving him the chance to be the leader for a couple of minutes, after that he felt like Rhys owed him and, considering his extremely egocentric personality, it doesn't surprise me that he was disappointed by Rhys' reticence in helping the man he worshipped. So yeah, not really bad writing here, it's just Jack and his bonkers attitude.
The rejection ending of Episode 4 makes much more sense with the Ep5 storyline than the rule ending
That is the thing, Jack wanting… more to kill Rhys just doesn't make sense in that scene. What was the point of making Rhys president at all? Why not just strap him in the chair and shove the endoskeleton inside him right away? And in the initial conversation Jack goes from saying stuff like this:
and giving Rhys advice on how to be a good CEO, to 'now I'll kill you and upload myself into you, fun, eh?' in the span of, like, a couple of minutes. So, um, what was he giving him tips for if he never intended to let him actually be a CEO... This was just bad writing and I'm upset that TT decided to give us such a major choice and then just scrapped it. If they always wanted to have Jack try to kill Rhys, it should have happened the moment Rhys sat down in that chair.
Betrayed? He was the one to betray me, he's not misunderstood, at least not in Tales. As Rhys said, he's just an asshole,and he probably didn't realize that, but Rhys and all Hyperion finally did. Jack wasn't done for in BL2, Helios was still there, Hyperion was still a threath and Jack was still worshipped, in Tales he had nothing left, and the big irony is that he didn't lose everything because of the so much despised Vault Hunters or any formidable enemy. He got everything he had destroyed by a lowly stooge of his own company. In BL2 he died, in Tales he lost, definitely, that's the big difference.
Of course assholes have different parts to them. We saw that in the TPS. I just believe that Jack's death in BL2 was more fitting. I just do… moren't know why Jack needed to be resurrected to be betrayed again. He obviously didn't change.
Long story short, I'm just sick of seeing how misunderstood Jack is...that's been done before. I wanted something new or nothing at all.
...no duh he betrayed Rhys. Think of it from Jack's point of view. Jack already lost in BL2. He lost his daughter, his girlfriend, his vault, and his life. And Hyperion is still a company wether or not Helios is there. Jack's story was done after BL2 because they intended it that way.
Betrayed? He was the one to betray me, he's not misunderstood, at least not in Tales. As Rhys said, he's just an asshole,and he probably did… moren't realize that, but Rhys and all Hyperion finally did. Jack wasn't done for in BL2, Helios was still there, Hyperion was still a threath and Jack was still worshipped, in Tales he had nothing left, and the big irony is that he didn't lose everything because of the so much despised Vault Hunters or any formidable enemy. He got everything he had destroyed by a lowly stooge of his own company. In BL2 he died, in Tales he lost, definitely, that's the big difference.
I did the same thing. I also initially had Rhys say that he won, but as Jack talked Rhys realized he didn't "win" at all. His former life idolizing Jack was built on a lie and he had to literally tear himself apart to escape it.
It's funny, in the end I just said goodbye. I didn't gloat, nor insult Jack. I just acknowledged his death as the final Chapter in Handsome … moreJacks story. Through all the highs, the lows, the in and outs Handsome Jack was one of the best villians we had in not just Borderlands but in gaming history.
So In the end I felt no anger to him, nor any pity, just the acknowledgement that this was goodbye. So Handsome Jack.... from all of us here who witnessed your insane reign of beautiful, funny terror.....
Goodbye
plenty of other vaults, he was more disappointed about losing the monster in it.
Hyperion without Helios is as much of a company as Atlas is, with Helios it's still a threat, and again, he was killed by Vault Hunters, the "bandits", and everyone at Hyperion still thought of him as a dying hero. Getting killed by Rhys made him not only lose everything he''s worked for, but also his godlike status, and considering a guy like Jack, that's the most important thing he could have ever lost. That's why in BL2 he didn't really lose, while in Tales did.
...no duh he betrayed Rhys. Think of it from Jack's point of view. Jack already lost in BL2. He lost his daughter, his girlfriend, his vault… more, and his life. And Hyperion is still a company wether or not Helios is there. Jack's story was done after BL2 because they intended it that way.
I kinda agree with you here, I do think Jack thought he was doing Rhys a favor, but I still think the writing in this scene sucks because this AI Jack was never shown to be that bonkers... In fact, if you've sided with him, for the previous 4 episodes AI Jack has been very reasonable. If there was some foreshadowing that he was going to go off the deep end this whole bit would be in character, but there wasn't. And the final slap in the face is not being able to respond to Jack in any way other than 'I was so wrong about you, you suck' which is not what I imagine a pro-Jack Rhys would feel... A pro-Jack Rhys should feel hurt and betrayed, in a deliciously painful reprise of how Jack felt in TPS.
Just imagine how much more emotional those scenes would be for pro-Jack players if you could have Rhys plead with Jack to let him stay himself and work for him, only to have Jack respond with his TPS attitude towards the scientists, i.e. 'I'm sorry, can't risk you becoming a liability'. It would have been in character, it would have felt like your choices (trusting Jack) mattered a bit more, and it would have been a nice call-back to TPS.
I'm just so bitter over those missed opportunities...
I must say, I interpreted it with Jack having a very odd sense of gratitude. He must've thought, "hey, this boy worships me and he actually … moretrusted me so let's give him what he wants, after that I'll call back the favor". I think Jack genuniely wanted to "repay" Rhys for the trust, giving him the chance to be the leader for a couple of minutes, after that he felt like Rhys owed him and, considering his extremely egocentric personality, it doesn't surprise me that he was disappointed by Rhys' reticence in helping the man he worshipped. So yeah, not really bad writing here, it's just Jack and his bonkers attitude.
he betrayed Rhys
Yeah, that's what I meant.
he lost his daughter
He had already lost her the day he locked her up
… more his girlfriend
Did he really care?
His vault
plenty of other vaults, he was more disappointed about losing the monster in it.
Hyperion without Helios is as much of a company as Atlas is, with Helios it's still a threat, and again, he was killed by Vault Hunters, the "bandits", and everyone at Hyperion still thought of him as a dying hero. Getting killed by Rhys made him not only lose everything he''s worked for, but also his godlike status, and considering a guy like Jack, that's the most important thing he could have ever lost. That's why in BL2 he didn't really lose, while in Tales did.
Actualy you are seeing the things by Your way and handsome rhys here is beeing objective.. You just don't like this story and try to justify things your way xD
I agree with you that a wider range of reactions to Jack's betrayal should have been included, one minute you're all friends with him an the other you say things like "kiss my ass" "you died a loser" "you're an asshole", but, I dunno, maybe Rhys' disappointment enraged him at this point. As for Jack being reasonable in the past 4 episodes, it could have been all just an act, there was no way for him to get to Helios without Rhys, he had to appear sane to gain, or at least try to gain,his trust. ultimately he played his cards very well until the time he got back to his old Handsome Jack persona.
I kinda agree with you here, I do think Jack thought he was doing Rhys a favor, but I still think the writing in this scene sucks because th… moreis AI Jack was never shown to be that bonkers... In fact, if you've sided with him, for the previous 4 episodes AI Jack has been very reasonable. If there was some foreshadowing that he was going to go off the deep end this whole bit would be in character, but there wasn't. And the final slap in the face is not being able to respond to Jack in any way other than 'I was so wrong about you, you suck' which is not what I imagine a pro-Jack Rhys would feel... A pro-Jack Rhys should feel hurt and betrayed, in a deliciously painful reprise of how Jack felt in TPS.
Just imagine how much more emotional those scenes would be for pro-Jack players if you could have Rhys plead with Jack to let him stay himself and work for him, only to have Jack respond with his TPS attitude towards the scientists, i.e. 'I'm sorry… [view original content]
You know upon reflection on his final scene, I think that scene hurt me for reasons I never realised. In the end Jack was his own hero, his own idol. He became the man he needed to be to come out on top, to be the saviour that nobody wanted.
He said it as clear as he could "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
He knew he was the bad guy in the end, he knew the road he took even with the good he wanted was leading him to his doom. We're all monster in our own way, Jack just helped us see it. I don't think I've ever seen a more developed character like this, ignore the fact he's a villian, this guy is just so well written, his story, his drives, his emoitions. You hated him for everything he did, but to see him go. It just hurt even more.
Like I said too, in the end I had no intention of gloating or hurting him any more, I just made it simple. I said goodbye. Goodbye to a nobody who went far beyond his place to become somebody. And have another nobody take him down.
Actualy you are seeing the things by Your way and handsome rhys here is beeing objective.. You just don't like this story and try to justify things your way xD
I was expecting that (because, like you said...it's Jack), but for it to make more sense. For example, the whole idea of stuffing a huge exoskeleton inside someone's body has serious logistical issues, and you're unable to say anything about it. Even if it didn't, we've seen that Jack is able to control Rhys's body already without any enhancement, why would he need the exoskeleton. Also, if Rhys had been pro-Jack the whole time, none of the dialog options make any sense when Jack betrays you.
Jack was always going to backstab Rhys, even if Rhys was Pro-Jack.
Why?
Because Jack is a dick.
The game even talks about how he abused his loyal underlings for no reason.
Jack: It wasn't for no reason! It was for FUN!
I'm just glad you're not bashing the game, but rather explaining intelligently the reasons why you don't like it. A lot of people equate their opinion with fact some times. There are bad points to this game, as well as good ones. It all depends on the person whether you enjoy it or not
Idk, this is the one TT game that I've tried out... and while it was a great experience overall, the conclusion to TFTB left me wanting. Don… more't get me wrong, it was an amusing game. But what I like above everything else is being in control. Gearbox makes that... sketchy. Bethesda usually delivers on that front, so I'm waiting until 11/10 for fallout 4.
Beyond that, I don't care about BL 3/4/78 whatever. The gameplay wasn't all that fun, the characters were... and since Jack is gone... so am I. I get that's the way they wanted to go with the franchise, but there's where they've lost me, sorry.
explaining intelligently the reasons why you don't like it
It's kinda funny you should say that cause I wrote the above posts piss drunk, and reading them now I kinda cringe :P But I guess I did manage to get my point somewhat across in a... drunken... rambling... way.
To sum them up, TFTB is still an absolutely amazing game to me, up to episode 4. I was just personally very disappointed in how a choice-based game pretty much disregarded my choices in the end, where I expected them to really matter. And I was hoping the Jack AI deal was created to bring Jack back into the BL franchise, so it getting a determinant final 'death' was another big disappointment. But yeah, these are just my personal issues with the game.
I'm just glad you're not bashing the game, but rather explaining intelligently the reasons why you don't like it. A lot of people equate the… moreir opinion with fact some times. There are bad points to this game, as well as good ones. It all depends on the person whether you enjoy it or not
To be completely fair: hyperion had most of its employees die, while those that lived are now refugees that praise Rhys (using jacks statue btw), and if that isnt enough, Atlas is now more of a threat as a company than hyperion seeing as it now has a functional lab and a leader (where as hyperion has a pile of debris and Vaughn). If Jack lost in BL2, then why was he able to just take back over in tftb? Why was his office adored by VIPs? Why was the next president of hyperion not even allowed in to it? Jack didn't lose until he died. And even now he isnt dead, Rhys (as far as BL3 is concerned) could have kept his eye. That was an option. To say that Jack is dead is to say that Rhys and Fiona will never see the others (and they might not). From what I've read, handsom rhys is using logic and you are using opinion. Most of what handsome rhys has said can be proved with quotes in BL2. I have yet to see the same logic from you DDDude.
Rhys did have the option to keep the eye. I would like to see the game if you dont pick to run hyperion though. Hopefully the most picked choices make the final cut for BL3 and I would love if scooter did survive somehow. Everyone cried for scooter.
it's funny how I got so many likes and comments on a post that was literally just saying how I cried about Jack's death lol.
But to be ho… morenest, good on you, Telltale.
You made me cry over an AI that isn't even the real Jack, and I commend you for that.
Ok here is my problem with all of what you are saying (and I do understand it and actually agree with most of it but) Hyperion is not Helios. I don't know where you got the "Why was the next president of Hyperion not even allowed into Jack's office?" thing either. Was there a time in the game where they said this or showed it? I don't think the president was even on Helios during any of this (unless I completely missed that part). If you are referring to Vasquez as the president his desk plate says "senior vice president of securities propaganda" which I don't think that means CEO or president of Hyperion. I think Blake is the current CEO of Hyperion as stated in EP 5.
My biggest problem with all of this, is I think people need to go play (or replay) all the Borderlands games (including TPS) and then Tales to fully understand all of this. Pandora is not like Earth...there are many other planets and other Hyperion bases. Just because Helios is gone does not mean Hyperion is...Jack built Helios so it made sense he stayed there and that the people on Helios worshiped him (not the whole Hyperion company). Regarding Jack's death; I hope he isn't dead...I don't like how it left off.
The thing that is also bothering me is that I 100% agree with what Handsome Rhys has said...of course Jack is an asshole who betrayed us, killed many people, and enslaved his own daughter. But to Jack he never thought he did anything wrong. That is all I said and that is also backed up in all the games.
Comments
I must say, I interpreted it with Jack having a very odd sense of gratitude. He must've thought, "hey, this boy worships me and he actually trusted me so let's give him what he wants, after that I'll call back the favor". I think Jack genuniely wanted to "repay" Rhys for the trust, giving him the chance to be the leader for a couple of minutes, after that he felt like Rhys owed him and, considering his extremely egocentric personality, it doesn't surprise me that he was disappointed by Rhys' reticence in helping the man he worshipped. So yeah, not really bad writing here, it's just Jack and his bonkers attitude.
See you, space badass.
Betrayed? He was the one to betray me, he's not misunderstood, at least not in Tales. As Rhys said, he's just an asshole,and he probably didn't realize that, but Rhys and all Hyperion finally did. Jack wasn't done for in BL2, Helios was still there, Hyperion was still a threath and Jack was still worshipped, in Tales he had nothing left, and the big irony is that he didn't lose everything because of the so much despised Vault Hunters or any formidable enemy. He got everything he had destroyed by a lowly stooge of his own company. In BL2 he died, in Tales he lost, definitely, that's the big difference.
Yeah, that amde me cry and feel so freakin' sorry for him. He's one of my favorite characters and my favorite villain of all time
...no duh he betrayed Rhys. Think of it from Jack's point of view. Jack already lost in BL2. He lost his daughter, his girlfriend, his vault, and his life. And Hyperion is still a company wether or not Helios is there. Jack's story was done after BL2 because they intended it that way.
I did the same thing. I also initially had Rhys say that he won, but as Jack talked Rhys realized he didn't "win" at all. His former life idolizing Jack was built on a lie and he had to literally tear himself apart to escape it.
Out of all the beautifully written scenes in this game, Jacks ending was easily one of the best.
An amazing ending to a truly amazing character.
Yeah, that's what I meant.
He had already lost her the day he locked her up
Did he really care?
plenty of other vaults, he was more disappointed about losing the monster in it.
Hyperion without Helios is as much of a company as Atlas is, with Helios it's still a threat, and again, he was killed by Vault Hunters, the "bandits", and everyone at Hyperion still thought of him as a dying hero. Getting killed by Rhys made him not only lose everything he''s worked for, but also his godlike status, and considering a guy like Jack, that's the most important thing he could have ever lost. That's why in BL2 he didn't really lose, while in Tales did.
I kinda agree with you here, I do think Jack thought he was doing Rhys a favor, but I still think the writing in this scene sucks because this AI Jack was never shown to be that bonkers... In fact, if you've sided with him, for the previous 4 episodes AI Jack has been very reasonable. If there was some foreshadowing that he was going to go off the deep end this whole bit would be in character, but there wasn't. And the final slap in the face is not being able to respond to Jack in any way other than 'I was so wrong about you, you suck' which is not what I imagine a pro-Jack Rhys would feel... A pro-Jack Rhys should feel hurt and betrayed, in a deliciously painful reprise of how Jack felt in TPS.
Just imagine how much more emotional those scenes would be for pro-Jack players if you could have Rhys plead with Jack to let him stay himself and work for him, only to have Jack respond with his TPS attitude towards the scientists, i.e. 'I'm sorry, can't risk you becoming a liability'. It would have been in character, it would have felt like your choices (trusting Jack) mattered a bit more, and it would have been a nice call-back to TPS.
I'm just so bitter over those missed opportunities...
Well it's seems that we disagree. I'm thinking it from Jack's point and you're seeing it from yours. We'll agree to disagree.
That's capital.
Actualy you are seeing the things by Your way and handsome rhys here is beeing objective.. You just don't like this story and try to justify things your way xD
I agree with you that a wider range of reactions to Jack's betrayal should have been included, one minute you're all friends with him an the other you say things like "kiss my ass" "you died a loser" "you're an asshole", but, I dunno, maybe Rhys' disappointment enraged him at this point. As for Jack being reasonable in the past 4 episodes, it could have been all just an act, there was no way for him to get to Helios without Rhys, he had to appear sane to gain, or at least try to gain,his trust. ultimately he played his cards very well until the time he got back to his old Handsome Jack persona.
You know upon reflection on his final scene, I think that scene hurt me for reasons I never realised. In the end Jack was his own hero, his own idol. He became the man he needed to be to come out on top, to be the saviour that nobody wanted.
He said it as clear as he could "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
He knew he was the bad guy in the end, he knew the road he took even with the good he wanted was leading him to his doom. We're all monster in our own way, Jack just helped us see it. I don't think I've ever seen a more developed character like this, ignore the fact he's a villian, this guy is just so well written, his story, his drives, his emoitions. You hated him for everything he did, but to see him go. It just hurt even more.
Like I said too, in the end I had no intention of gloating or hurting him any more, I just made it simple. I said goodbye. Goodbye to a nobody who went far beyond his place to become somebody. And have another nobody take him down.
To be fair. I think we are both being opinionated and besides it doesn't matter anyways. The story is done for now so I'll let it be
it's funny how I got so many likes and comments on a post that was literally just saying how I cried about Jack's death lol.
But to be honest, good on you, Telltale.
You made me cry over an AI that isn't even the real Jack, and I commend you for that.
I was expecting that (because, like you said...it's Jack), but for it to make more sense. For example, the whole idea of stuffing a huge exoskeleton inside someone's body has serious logistical issues, and you're unable to say anything about it. Even if it didn't, we've seen that Jack is able to control Rhys's body already without any enhancement, why would he need the exoskeleton. Also, if Rhys had been pro-Jack the whole time, none of the dialog options make any sense when Jack betrays you.
I'm just glad you're not bashing the game, but rather explaining intelligently the reasons why you don't like it. A lot of people equate their opinion with fact some times. There are bad points to this game, as well as good ones. It all depends on the person whether you enjoy it or not
It's kinda funny you should say that cause I wrote the above posts piss drunk, and reading them now I kinda cringe :P But I guess I did manage to get my point somewhat across in a... drunken... rambling... way.
To sum them up, TFTB is still an absolutely amazing game to me, up to episode 4. I was just personally very disappointed in how a choice-based game pretty much disregarded my choices in the end, where I expected them to really matter. And I was hoping the Jack AI deal was created to bring Jack back into the BL franchise, so it getting a determinant final 'death' was another big disappointment. But yeah, these are just my personal issues with the game.
To be completely fair: hyperion had most of its employees die, while those that lived are now refugees that praise Rhys (using jacks statue btw), and if that isnt enough, Atlas is now more of a threat as a company than hyperion seeing as it now has a functional lab and a leader (where as hyperion has a pile of debris and Vaughn). If Jack lost in BL2, then why was he able to just take back over in tftb? Why was his office adored by VIPs? Why was the next president of hyperion not even allowed in to it? Jack didn't lose until he died. And even now he isnt dead, Rhys (as far as BL3 is concerned) could have kept his eye. That was an option. To say that Jack is dead is to say that Rhys and Fiona will never see the others (and they might not). From what I've read, handsom rhys is using logic and you are using opinion. Most of what handsome rhys has said can be proved with quotes in BL2. I have yet to see the same logic from you DDDude.
Rhys did have the option to keep the eye. I would like to see the game if you dont pick to run hyperion though. Hopefully the most picked choices make the final cut for BL3 and I would love if scooter did survive somehow. Everyone cried for scooter.
Telltale makes us cry at a lot of things.
Ok here is my problem with all of what you are saying (and I do understand it and actually agree with most of it but) Hyperion is not Helios. I don't know where you got the "Why was the next president of Hyperion not even allowed into Jack's office?" thing either. Was there a time in the game where they said this or showed it? I don't think the president was even on Helios during any of this (unless I completely missed that part). If you are referring to Vasquez as the president his desk plate says "senior vice president of securities propaganda" which I don't think that means CEO or president of Hyperion. I think Blake is the current CEO of Hyperion as stated in EP 5.
My biggest problem with all of this, is I think people need to go play (or replay) all the Borderlands games (including TPS) and then Tales to fully understand all of this. Pandora is not like Earth...there are many other planets and other Hyperion bases. Just because Helios is gone does not mean Hyperion is...Jack built Helios so it made sense he stayed there and that the people on Helios worshiped him (not the whole Hyperion company). Regarding Jack's death; I hope he isn't dead...I don't like how it left off.
The thing that is also bothering me is that I 100% agree with what Handsome Rhys has said...of course Jack is an asshole who betrayed us, killed many people, and enslaved his own daughter. But to Jack he never thought he did anything wrong. That is all I said and that is also backed up in all the games.