Well crap. There goes my plans to found a company that makes Jigsaw puzzles and throws random pieces into every box.
They already make those. My parents have (had?) a puzzle that has no edge pieces, five pieces that don't fit into the puzzle, and has repeated images on it. Two of the extra pieces even fit together, for the extra illusion of importance.
I've just spent all night reading that (1:30am-7:30am is a bloody long read!) and I think it's only fair to compliment those I agree with then add my thought for the day:
Lorn(a?), that's most of my criticisms of the first episode in a nutshell. The professional online reviewers have supported the underdog (Telltale being a very small company compared with LucasArts) because they think it shows promise and they're very pleased to see a genuine adventure game these days. But even they tickled upon a few of the faults you did!
The music, albeit faithful to tune and use of synthesizers, was as forgettable as the secondary characters (who all were one of two models with different textures on top). I can see why they implemented the player movements the way they did but it still needs some work. The voices were great. The background graphics and sound effects were superb. The inventory puzzles were clever (albeit easy). The map puzzles got tedious. It felt like a MI game! Shame they couldn't get Earl Boen, for whatever reason.
Like has been discussed, I hope the game gets darker and more serious, as one or two designers have suggested it will. This game has the potential to become as adult in terms of horror as MI2 (although they'd have to somehow have to make a character as terrifying as LeChuck was). For all those dissing the Giant Sponge - it's funny! With some followable logic a child would understand. I just hope they continue with the adult jokes but disguise them a bit more than the mention of "pirate spunk" (btw that did cause me to chuckle a lot).
I think the cliffhanger was worth it. None of us actually know who this person out of camera-shot is in the scene (even if most of us agree it's Kate Capsize/Morgan Le Flay).
The idea of Guybrush deliberately going against the Voodoo Lady's instruction to use the sponge (to destroy it instead) or for LeChuck to find it are both very intriguing possibilities.
With reference to the difficulty of puzzles, in MI2 and CMI there were two difficulty levels. In TMI, TT have decided to used a tiered hint system - they achieve the same thing by different methods. Let's hope they do scale the difficulty - and start the incline now, sharply! :P
What do I think of the other games? MI2>CMI>SMI>EMI.
SMI's plot was a simplified version of "On Stranger Tides" on a Treasure Island/Pirates of the Caribbean backdrop. It introduced us to the main characters in the series and gave us a few laughs. It didn't complicate the series too early, which was good.
MI2 threw Guybrush in at the deep end of his own quest, which unfortunately caused him to lose Elaine and cross swords (ok voodoo dolls) with LeChuck. This was a very adult game, full of the unpredictability, frustration and despair of real life. And yet in the face of being hunted down by a pissed off zombie with a vengeance, he still managed to crack a few jokes for us *coughs* pink dress *coughs*. Ron Gilbert threw the rest of the voodoo in here from the book that he didn't put in MI1. With that, he appeared to draw the franchise to a firm (and disappointing) close, but who knows what he really intended? All the game missed was insult swordfighting.
CMI brought the franchise out of the dark dusty corner of the attic and brought it down for the kids to play with. Much more light-hearted adventure that was a superb game in its own right. It had some real pirates in the supporting cast but by this point, they're a dying breed (the Barbershop Quartet, Captain Rottingham, King André).
EMI was too touristy, which seemingly everyone has picked up on. The only real pirates were LeChuck, Ozzy (he certainly behaved like a pirate overlord, despite hating all the others) and Pegnose Pete.
The one puzzle that still gets me scratching my head even today is the gambling one on Phatt Island in MI2. Are those number aliases for those hand layouts random or is there a pattern/knack? Only got it out of the 1 in 5 chance in the past (times 3 for the first time, ofc). Also, I had to refer to a walkthrough to find the book "Great Shipwrecks of our Century". While players would consider that the co-ordinates of where the ship sank might be in a library book, how do they leap to the conclusion that it's filed under 'Disasters'? I can just see people going through all the books in turn (there're about 400, I reckon). Bearing in mind you can only take out 4 books at a time, this could easily take a week. By then, the frustrated player will have given up.
From what you've all said, I really want to ride that PotC ride now before I die! Only trouble is I live in Britain, off the mainland. '
I hope Largo LaGrande comes back. And the Barbershop Quartet.
Going back to reply 119, Lorn, you need to use the parrot on the coin at least four times before you get to Blood Island (the moments I remember offhand are eating the biscuit in Blondebeard's restaurant to find the maggots that eventually lead to Brimstone Beach & Palido's map, blowing the balloon in the quicksand pit, firing the pea shooter and chewing the gum). Also, there're some mildly amusing actions unimportant to the game, such as licking Haggis's chair handle.
If it's any consolation to those who found LeChuck scary in MI2 when they were kids, I didn't use the tunnels under Phatt Island at all because I thought LeChuck was going to jump out at me (I was only six years old). Two years later when I got to the end of the game, LeChuck ambushing Guybrush in the Big Whoop tunnels was predictable but I still wet myself and got nightmares. When I play it now, I still jump out of my skin every time he reappears. They managed that in DOS via good storytelling, a creepy sprite and a clever baddie melody on the internal speaker. Shame they can't manage it nowadays, despite LeChuck being way more powerful and looking a hell of a lot more dangerous!
Lorn, I find the replies you've written in his thread really insightful. Please keep them coming. Also, how is your username comprised? My guess is Slade is either your surname or a band you like, RLM are the initials of the college you went to, C is either college or class of, then '77
ARGH! I just spent half an hour replying to tbm1986, and the forum ate it!
*sighs* Here we go again. I apologize if I miss some of the points I made in the earlier post, tbm...I'll do my best to reconstruct from memory. (BTW - sorry it took you so long to read through the thread, but glad you enjoyed what you've seen so far!)
The music, albeit faithful to tune and use of synthesizers, was as forgettable as the secondary characters (who all were one of two models with different textures on top). I can see why they implemented the player movements the way they did but it still needs some work. The voices were great. The background graphics and sound effects were superb. The inventory puzzles were clever (albeit easy). The map puzzles got tedious. It felt like a MI game! Shame they couldn't get Earl Boen, for whatever reason.
With regards to the music, I don't really mind synthesized music...I listened to the original games on an internal speaker, and was still tapping my foot. (Of course, the addition of a sound card was a HUGE improvement). The main problem I had with the music in this first episode was that there was no standout theme (with the possible exception of DeSinge.) I can whistle themes from all of the other games from memory...but can't remember any of the themes from Narwhal - at least, not well enough to whistle. The opening theme was especially disappointing...it felt like there were fewer instruments, and truncating the theme is a crime.
Already, we've had two map puzzles in the first episode...the devs need to be careful about repeating themselves. They've already done two map jokes, robbed a joke about "off camera disasters" from the first game, and overused the "Guybrush not saying what the player selects" gag. I think this will become less of a problem as the writers get comfortable with writing in this universe again.
As for the loss of Earl Boen, I was disappointed that he's not reprising the role of LeChuck for this series, but I also didn't mind the new guy, who I thought did an excellent interpretation. I only hope that they bring LeChuck into more of the foreground of the successive episodes...I want more "Meanwhile" sequences!
For all those dissing the Giant Sponge - it's funny!
I agree, and I'm surprised to see that so many people have latched onto this as a concern. Like "El Pollo Diablo", saying "La Esponje Grande" just makes me giggle, and if they use this element of the story the way that "On Stranger Tides" made use of the Fountain of Youth (as it seems they're intending), there is some tremendous voodoo potential here! (BTW, I do have another thread discussing the influence of "On Stranger Tides" on the series somewhere in this forum...you might enjoy that one too!)
The idea of Guybrush deliberately going against the Voodoo Lady's instruction to use the sponge (to destroy it instead) or for LeChuck to find it are both very intriguing possibilities.
I really, REALLY hope that this is the tack they take. If the sponge really is a powerful voodoo artifact/location, it has the potential to change the world that these pirates inhabit...power of that type can easily tempt and corrupt...and add that "depth" on the same level that LeChucks Revenge did.
SMI's plot was a simplified version of "On Stranger Tides" on a Treasure Island/Pirates of the Caribbean backdrop. It introduced us to the main characters in the series and gave us a few laughs. It didn't complicate the series too early, which was good.
MI2 threw Guybrush in at the deep end of his own quest, which unfortunately caused him to lose Elaine and cross swords (ok voodoo dolls) with LeChuck. This was a very adult game, full of the unpredictability, frustration and despair of real life. And yet in the face of being hunted down by a pissed off zombie with a vengeance, he still managed to crack a few jokes for us *coughs* pink dress *coughs*. Ron Gilbert threw the rest of the voodoo in here from the book that he didn't put in MI1. With that, he appeared to draw the franchise to a firm (and disappointing) close, but who knows what he really intended? All the game missed was insult swordfighting.
The only thing that I disagree with here is that the ending of LeChucks Revenge was disappointing. I'm a firm believer that The Secret of Monkey Island was a good game, made GREAT by the second game. LeChucks Revenge raised the stakes, and gave the characters depth that wasn't present in the first game. This retroactively improved the first game by making it the introductory chapter in a complex tale. I'm convinced that if LeChucks Revenge had never been released, The Secret of Monkey Island would be remembered by many as a good game, but not necessarily a classic.
Also - the ending of LeChucks Revenge is brilliant in that it allows the player to decide for themselves the meaning of everything that is happening in the series. To this day, we still debate what (if anything) the series is *really* about...by leaving it open ended, we can fill in the areas around the cracks with our own imagination. I agree that on the first play through, that shocking ending felt like having a bucket of ice water thrown on you...but now I can only view it as brilliant scripting by a confident writer. He trusted the audience enough NOT to explain everything, and I respect that.
CMI brought the franchise out of the dark dusty corner of the attic and brought it down for the kids to play with. Much more light-hearted adventure that was a superb game in its own right. It had some real pirates in the supporting cast but by this point, they're a dying breed (the Barbershop Quartet, Captain Rottingham, King André).
The beauty of Curse is that it gives enough of an explanation to the ending of LeChucks Revenge to let the player move past it, but is still open-ended and self-contradictory enough to not necessarily be the truth...still allowing the player to make up their own mind about the events of the previous games.
Even though Curse wasn't written by Ron Gilbert, I view it as the perfect companion to the first two games...it's true that it's less dark than "LeChucks Revenge", but it lightened it up *just* enough while still having dark elements. (Blood and Skull Islands in particular!) It's also the game that gave me the most laughs, so I'm always surprised by those who see it as the beginning of a downward trend. For myself, I don't see any daylight between Curse and the first two entries in the series - it seems to me to be the perfect complement.
EMI was too touristy, which seemingly everyone has picked up on. The only real pirates were LeChuck, Ozzy (he certainly behaved like a pirate overlord, despite hating all the others) and Pegnose Pete.
Ugh. Can't agree here. There WERE no real pirates in Escape...not even LeChuck. And relegating LeChuck to a second banana to a new character was an outright crime. Also - what would you say LeChuck was in the fourth episode? A ghost pirate? A zombie pirate? A demon pirate? Why can he now suddenly shift forms at whim? And what the heck did he end up as at the end? I felt the developers really hadn't paid attention to what made the previous games work in this one...almost like they just wanted to take the concept and run with their own "improved" version of the story. To my mind, the less said about Escape, the better.
From what you've all said, I really want to ride that PotC ride now before I die! Only trouble is I live in Britain, off the mainland.
Yes. Do, if you EVER get the chance. It's been years since I've been to Disneyland. The last time I was there, I was still a kid. That said, Pirates definitely imprinted my imagination.
A few months ago, I found out that I'm going to be a father. Last month, I learned that I'm going to have a son. We're going to deck out the nursery in a pirate theme, and I look forward to reading Treasure Island to him when he's old enough.
Somehow, when he's old enough, I'm going to get us back down there so he can go on the ride. It seems silly that a gussied up amusement park ride can really make you feel like a kid, transported into a different reality...but that's exactly what Pirates does. It makes the pirates in your imagination REAL, for just a few minutes.
If you aren't able to ever make it here to go on the ride, the next best thing I could recommend is to buy the two-disk version of Curse of the Black Pearl. On the bonus features is an episode of "Walt Disney Presents" that was broadcast when the ride first opened. You get to see the events that took place in the park that day (1961? I dont' remember the exact date)...and a cameraman goes on the ride, giving you a video tour. It's the next best thing to being there, and fun to see just to see how much things have changed in the modern day. (Incidentally, I understand the ride has been updated a bit since the movies came out...Jack Sparrow and Davey Jones now make appearances, so I'm anxious to see that.)
hope Largo LaGrande comes back. And the Barbershop Quartet.
Meeee too. I would especially love to see Largo working with LeSinge to transform LeChuck back into his earlier incarnation.
Going back to reply 119, Lorn, you need to use the parrot on the coin at least four times before you get to Blood Island (the moments I remember offhand are eating the biscuit in Blondebeard's restaurant to find the maggots that eventually lead to Brimstone Beach & Palido's map, blowing the balloon in the quicksand pit, firing the pea shooter and chewing the gum). Also, there're some mildly amusing actions unimportant to the game, such as licking Haggis's chair handle.
Yeah...I was a little embarrassed that I actually got stuck on these puzzles. They never gave me a problem when I first played the games, so I chalk it up to being rusty. (It's been a few years since Adventure Games have been in vogue, after all). I think this argues in favor of ramping up the difficulty level slowly in the introductory episode...we need to remember how to work those mental muscles before they really start putting us through the paces. (That said, I do hope we're running in the Olympics before all is said and done!)
If it's any consolation to those who found LeChuck scary in MI2 when they were kids, I didn't use the tunnels under Phatt Island at all because I thought LeChuck was going to jump out at me (I was only six years old). Two years later when I got to the end of the game, LeChuck ambushing Guybrush in the Big Whoop tunnels was predictable but I still wet myself and got nightmares. When I play it now, I still jump out of my skin every time he reappears. They managed that in DOS via good storytelling, a creepy sprite and a clever baddie melody on the internal speaker. Shame they can't manage it nowadays, despite LeChuck being way more powerful and looking a hell of a lot more dangerous!
And isn't it interesting how many people have brought this point up? I thought I was the only one terrified by LeChucks surprise appearances at the end of the game. I was gratified to find that that sense of dread was felt by others. I think it was a combination of his sudden appearance, the thumping music, and his utter hatred of Guybrush. "...I will then take your bones, still alive and in great pain and make them into a chair. I will call it my "Screaming Chair". Every day I will sit in it and listen to you scream. Any questions?"
Guybrush should *not* be laughing at LeChuck...at least, not usually. LeChuck in THIS mode is somebody to take seriously, not a buffoon.
Lorn, I find the replies you've written in his thread really insightful. Please keep them coming.
I'm glad you've enjoyed the thread, and I hope you keep contributing too!
Also, how is your username comprised? My guess is Slade is either your surname or a band you like, RLM are the initials of the college you went to, C is either college or class of, then '77
*laughs* Close, but no cigar. I used to belong to a LAN party club, and all the members had handles. Mine was "Slader." My full name is "Lorn Michael Conner", and the year of my birth was 1977. Hence, "sladerlmc77."
If we're on the right track in thinking that Le Esponje Grande serves the same purpose as the Fountain of Youth in "On Stranger Tides", then it basically IS the Crossroads....the point where this world and the otherworld meet.
If Guybrush DOES contrive to destroy the Crossroads....does that mean there is now no boundary between this world and the spirit world?
That the dead would walk over the Greater Tri-Island Area?
I agree, and I'm surprised to see that so many people have latched onto this as a concern.
Actually, i haven't seen any complains about la esponja grande except my own
But like i said, i haven't made it a really big issue yet.. It could develop in a lot of different ways, and we know too little about it now to really have an opinion. The only thing that "scares" me is if it ends up being just a silly funny thing while still being a central part of the plot -which, as it's been said, has to be kinda serious. IMO, "silly funny things" need to be kind of in the background, not part of the main and actual story. (just like el pollo diablo).
But Lorn's thoughts about it are quite interesting, so i'll just wait until i see what they make out of it. It COULD end up lame, but i have to agree that it could end up pretty interesting as well
I've never been to any of the Disney Parks outside of Disneyland. For anybody who has been, is the ride the same at each of the parks, or do they each have their own unique flavor?
(aside from the previously noted difference at the EuroDisney park, without the upgrades?)
I agree with many of the points the reviewer made, especially regarding characters and tone. Thinking back, all of my favorite locations in the MI games were the dark and/or spooky ones. Blood Island, Melee Island, Scabb Island.
Actually, I was never very fond of Blood Island. There are things I like about it - the volcano, the gorgeous map of the island, the trip to King Andre's hideout (a character I'd love to see again in a future MI game).
But I always found the rest... wrong, somehow : the crypts and cemetery, the gravedigger, the old windmill, the Goodsoup inn, madam Xima... looked like they were taken straight from an old Dracula movie. Which I guess was kinda the point (hence the name "Blood island"), but that seemed out of place in the Caribbean nonetheless.
I didn't see anything wrong with blood island, but i also never really felt in love with it. I thought it was okay, not much more, so i don't quite get why so many people seem to love this island so much.
Great review Lorn, and I agree with pretty much everything you said.
MI2 was my favourite as well, and recently playing through the first 3 again before the launch of Tales it's the one that made me actually laugh the most, out loud and hard.
Whoever asked about the backalley gambling puzzle, the answer is just how many fingers he holds up the first time, the amount he's holding up at the end means nothing. Evil, yes, but I somehow worked it out when I was 12
I'm looking forward to seeing this season develop. They DO have Dave grossman and I loved the sam and max seasons so.. We'll see. That said, I hope they read at least your review and take some of it on board
Lorn, you have the same tendency as me, in that you write out a really long essay then either the forum eats it or the browser crashes. So what I now do periodically is copy it to the clipboard, every two paragraphs or so until the post is finished.
And I'm very pleased you respect what I have to say, despite just reiterating what has already been said.
With regards to the music, I don't really mind synthesized music...I listened to the original games on an internal speaker, and was still tapping my foot. (Of course, the addition of a sound card was a HUGE improvement). The main problem I had with the music in this first episode was that there was no standout theme (with the possible exception of DeSinge.) I can whistle themes from all of the other games from memory...but can't remember any of the themes from Narwhal - at least, not well enough to whistle. The opening theme was especially disappointing...it felt like there were fewer instruments, and truncating the theme is a crime.
Please don't get me wrong - I liked it but it did nothing for me like Woodtick, the two LeChuck themes, Plunder Island themes and the smugglers' cave (heehee the duck was a great way to puncture the tension; made me laugh a lot) did. For the opening, copying the intro of CMI would maybe have been more sensible (if they were allowed to).
overused the "Guybrush not saying what the player selects" gag.
That was nothing short of criminal! Felt like it was all the time! Say what I tell you, Guybrush! And there seemed no challenge with persuading characters to part with their stuff if they're persuadable. Any response seemed to do in those situations. But it was well acted and the humour was there.
I also didn't mind the new guy, who I thought did an excellent interpretation. I only hope that they bring LeChuck into more of the foreground of the successive episodes...I want more "Meanwhile" sequences!
I thought so too. But that "har har har!" was taking-the-piss funny the first time. Yes, TT please insert those Meanwhiles that worked so well in the other games! (unless you're deliberately keeping LeChuck's activities under wraps)
Esponja Grande = Fountain of Youth = Crossroads
Unless I'm interpretting wrong (having not yet read "On Stranger Tides" myself), I disagree in that FOY = Crossroads. Crossroads = Big Whoop (as I see it), whereas Poxed Hand/Pox of LeChuck = a bit like the personality crossover between Spock and McCoy in the 3rd Star Trek film (sorry if this is out of ppl's area of knowledge). I tend to agree that the MI version of the Fountain of Youth (Le Esponja Grande) is central to the plot and that there're a few ways they could play it. This game seems a lot darker in references so far to Curse, so I'd say Guybrush does not 100% intend to use the Sponge when he finds it (and Evil will continue to blow around like a lazy drunken whirlwind on ecstasy, causing havoc wherever it happens to go).
BTW, I do have another thread discussing the influence of "On Stranger Tides" on the series somewhere in this forum...you might enjoy that one too!
It's where I got most of my information from, having not read the book. Unfortunately I only noticed it was you who had written all that (and an excellent summary/essay it was!) once I'd finished up my long post in here, so didn't credit you like I should have done. I'm sorry.
I agree that on the first play through, that shocking ending of MI2 felt like having a bucket of ice water thrown on you
That's how I still feel about how Ron appeared to write it: they were kids, it was all a dream. No more MIs. So when LucasArts released Curse and had Voodoo Lady/LeChuck explain it all away so as to make way for yet more sequels, I was very pleased and relieved. So as a result, I tend to buy LucasArts'/LeChuck's story because the kid in me wants to believe it all to be real in the LucasArts Pirate Universe. The only other explanation I've heard that holds a candle to it is yours, which is a very adult take that allows us to do exactly what Guybrush is doing (ie. "**** you, reality! I'm enjoying myself here and that's the way it's going to stay!")
The beauty of Curse is that it gives enough of an explanation to the ending of LeChucks Revenge to let the player move past it...the perfect companion to the first two games
Couldn't agree more with this. In fact, it ties it off as a trilogy. If we ignore EMI, we could easily have Tales there after the trilogy (and I think the only mention of Escape existing is "Ultimate Insult" in the recipe for the cutlass).
Yes. Do, if you EVER get the chance. It's been years since I've been to Disneyland. The last time I was there, I was still a kid. That said, Pirates definitely imprinted my imagination.
Wow. Just like I made it my mission to see my two favourite bands before I die (I'm seeing the last one on Sunday XD), I'm making this ride a mission too, even if I have to have kids as an excuse to go to Disneyland. As a pirate adventure game fan, it's my duty to set out on a pilgramage to pay homage.
A few months ago, I found out that I'm going to be a father. Last month, I learned that I'm going to have a son. We're going to deck out the nursery in a pirate theme, and I look forward to reading Treasure Island to him when he's old enough.
Somehow, when he's old enough, I'm going to get us back down there so he can go on the ride. It seems silly that a gussied up amusement park ride can really make you feel like a kid, transported into a different reality...but that's exactly what Pirates does. It makes the pirates in your imagination REAL, for just a few minutes.
That's excellent news! I hope he takes to the pirate stuff. Most young boys do. I also hope that you manage to find time to finish TMI (and whatever gets produced afterwards). Considering how tied up Dominic always seems to be with his family life, this will probably be difficult.
If you aren't able to ever make it here to go on the ride, the next best thing I could recommend is to buy the two-disk version of Curse of the Black Pearl. On the bonus features is an episode of "Walt Disney Presents" that was broadcast when the ride first opened. You get to see the events that took place in the park that day (1961? I dont' remember the exact date)...and a cameraman goes on the ride, giving you a video tour. It's the next best thing to being there, and fun to see just to see how much things have changed in the modern day. (Incidentally, I understand the ride has been updated a bit since the movies came out...Jack Sparrow and Davey Jones now make appearances, so I'm anxious to see that.)
I've only got the trilogy box set but I think my stepsister has the 2-disc Curse of the Black Pearl. I'll ask her to dig it out.
I would especially love to see Largo working with LeSinge to transform LeChuck back into his earlier incarnation.
I hadn't thought of that possibility. Largo and de Singe could shake hands on the "scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" philosophy. That would mean Largo helps de Singe out in capturing Guybrush (while still being worried over the possibility Guybrush still has his voodoo doll), while the surgeon has to help Largo get his old master evil again (probably in demon form, like he was in Curse).
"...I will then take your bones, still alive and in great pain and make them into a chair. I will call it my "Screaming Chair". Every day I will sit in it and listen to you scream. Any questions?"
I'd forgotten about that. As a kid, that was very vivid in my head, despite how adult the level of hatred was. Did anyone else get that too? And it was great that once LeChuck left the scene so his trap could run its deadly course, the way out was spitting (and often hitting Wally, which I admit to laughing very hard to). Curse had this type of thing too with the duck rock at the top of Skull Island. I don't recall anything like that in SMI or EMI.
*laughs* Close, but no cigar.
I had the right idea (sort of). Mine's a lot simpler: initials + year of birth (I'm Tom, btw)
I thought Flotsam felt like a cross between Lucre and Dinky. Neither of those are piratey islands (but Dinky did have a treasure on it and Lucre had an elusive pirate thief). You get your instructions for being led to Deep Gut immediately and they felt like the 3 trials in SMI (only less legendary). And as in CMI, (almost) all is explained when you visit the Voodoo Lady. This seems to be a fairly standard way of starting an MI game, along with a short tutorial section before the first main island. Good way in for new adventure gamers but I hope the game gets progressively meatier.
We don't know whether this is going on or not yet, but all the same I thing it should be plugged: force Guybrush to pick things up he'll use later (and also reusing items). Sierra made the mistake of not letting you know you need something until it's too late to do anything besides restore your game. I'm pleased in MI2, you needed to clean up spit with paper that would later get used for recording instructions to navigate LeChuck's fortress. Again in MI2, Stan gives you a hanky, which you then give to LeChuck (eww). CMI did it with wooden nickels, which were in front of the diamond ring. Again in CMI, you needed the scissors and Murray's arm on Blood Island. Don't know what benefit I can use to back this suggestion up but I'm sure someone will find one.
Bring back Insult Swordfighting, please! It worked really well in SMI, was missing in MI2, made a good reprise in Curse and Escape screwed it up by "assigning the paradigm to a whole host of other pirate pastimes". There're some surprisingly good ones in a dedicated thread, so I hope TT take advantage of this with a last-minute ad hoc change.
Of all the user interfaces we've had with the games, I think CMI's worked best. But then if you're going to introduce Escape-like 3D movements, use of a mouse (a 2D device) is always going to be tricky. But please keep your gorgeous 3D environments and clever moving camera on stairs and bridges.
The music needs to be more memorable, like in CMI. Also, make more effort with your secondary characters! We all notice the re-use of the thin and fat models with different textures and find the contents of their characters very bland indeed. I can't even remember their surnames! I know they're not important to the plot but look at how memorable the barbers are from Curse! You need characters like that. But on new baddies/primary characters, I can't compliment you enough on Marquis de Singe. Better than Ozzy Mandrill anyday! In fact, better than Largo LaGrande! I can't give higher praise than that.
Oh and please make the levels harder. Recipe puzzles are good (seen with the trip to MI in SMI, the voodoo dolls in MI2, the head-clearing remedy in CMI {that was weaker} and the Eau de Pegnose in EMI). The escape from de Singe's lab was brilliant. I also enjoyed the idol puzzle. Maybe bring in a puzzle like acquiring the Phatt Island map piece in MI2. Also good from way back was escaping the quicksand pit on Plunder. And what Murray was used for on Blood.
Characters I feel you must resurrect: the Barbershop Quartet, Largo LaGrande, Captain Smirk, Murray, Wally and/or King Andre (preferably in his smuggler's cove, where Guybrush must haggle to get something he needs). Comebacks, not cameos. Murray's reappearance in Escape was pathetic.
Other than that, keep up the good work! It means a lot to us.
Great review Lorn, and I agree with pretty much everything you said.
Whoever asked about the backalley gambling puzzle, the answer is just how many fingers he holds up the first time, the amount he's holding up at the end means nothing. Evil, yes, but I somehow worked it out when I was 12
Many thanks for that. I'm playing through MI2 again now, as it happens.
I agree with background characters; but disagree on music, dialogue, environments, and interface.
For me both options on the interface worked extremely well, were very relaxing, and I found myself using both off and on. Sorry, but some of your points are way off and up to personal preference.
The music was fine; you just have to know how to set the game up properly to balance it all out; the dialogue was hilarious and not much different than Lechuck's Revenge to me. I didn't laugh much in Lechuck's Revenge even when I first played it; smiled maybe, but didn't laugh much at it. I laughed at this game though. That's right you heard me; most of Lechuck's Revenge didn't have LAUGH OUT LOUD moments. A couple were there, like sawing off the leg, but most of the game was just filled with a fun atmosphere that brings a smile to my face. This game was the same; I laughed as much in this first chapter as I did in the first chapter of Lechuck's Revenge.
And the environments were beautiful and lively! Telltale did a great job on them; the plastic look adds to the style; it doesn't DETRACT. Give me a break. Next thing you'll be remarking how the physics on the objects in CMI were so unrealistic the game was ruined.
I'm sorry; but no. While I agree that very few of the characters in the background really shone, the rest of your complaints don't jive.
"Ugh. Can't agree here. There WERE no real pirates in Escape...not even LeChuck. And relegating LeChuck to a second banana to a new character was an outright crime. Also - what would you say LeChuck was in the fourth episode? A ghost pirate? A zombie pirate? A demon pirate? Why can he now suddenly shift forms at whim? And what the heck did he end up as at the end? I felt the developers really hadn't paid attention to what made the previous games work in this one...almost like they just wanted to take the concept and run with their own "improved" version of the story. To my mind, the less said about Escape, the better."
Okay, sladerlmc77, tell me how the others were different. MI has NEVER had real pirates. Just a buncha pirate wannabes, like Guybrush. Sure, some are more piratey than others, but I have yet to see any real ones. Besides, the whole point of EMI was the touristy atmosphere. It was part of the story! The main villain was making it touristy on purpose. I think that EMI should be cut more slack. It was, after all, the last monkey island game for nine years. I thought the game was great. The only problems it had were poor polishing and Monkey Combat.
Actually, I was never very fond of Blood Island. There are things I like about it - the volcano, the gorgeous map of the island, the trip to King Andre's hideout (a character I'd love to see again in a future MI game).
But I always found the rest... wrong, somehow : the crypts and cemetery, the gravedigger, the old windmill, the Goodsoup inn, madam Xima... looked like they were taken straight from an old Dracula movie. Which I guess was kinda the point (hence the name "Blood island"), but that seemed out of place in the Caribbean nonetheless.
Part of what I like about Blood Island is the return of the cannibals, particularly centered around the concept of a lactose intolerant volcano god. (Being lactose-intolerant myself, and fond of volcanos, it's hard for me not to like the location)
I felt the location worked primarily because, while not exactly piratey, it certainly fit the period. (Bodies were often sold to "mad" doctors of the time for research...handling of bodies could be quite shady). Besides, the Flying Welshman is hilarious in his own right.
vague_hit:
Whoever asked about the backalley gambling puzzle, the answer is just how many fingers he holds up the first time, the amount he's holding up at the end means nothing. Evil, yes, but I somehow worked it out when I was 12
THANK YOU. I've never actually figured out how that worked either...I always had to resort to a "save and restore" to decipher that puzzle. I feel like a dunce now!
tbm1986:
Unless I'm interpretting wrong (having not yet read "On Stranger Tides" myself), I disagree in that FOY = Crossroads. Crossroads = Big Whoop (as I see it), whereas Poxed Hand/Pox of LeChuck = a bit like the personality crossover between Spock and McCoy in the 3rd Star Trek film (sorry if this is out of ppl's area of knowledge).
I suppose you could say that I interpret "Big Whoop" as a red herring planted by LeChuck - a snare designed to draw Guybrush into his clutches, while the "real" Crossroads/Ultimate Power MacGuffin waits in the background. Of course, this would sort of foul up the idea of Big Whoop/The Monkey Head being the Gateway to Hell.
I tend to agree that the MI version of the Fountain of Youth (Le Esponja Grande) is central to the plot and that there're a few ways they could play it. This game seems a lot darker in references so far to Curse, so I'd say Guybrush does not 100% intend to use the Sponge when he finds it (and Evil will continue to blow around like a lazy drunken whirlwind on ecstasy, causing havoc wherever it happens to go).
The two interesting possibilities that I see for the sponge involve Guybrush either being corrupted by its power and becoming an uber-pirate, or destroying it - thereby unleashing the dead all throughout the world.
That's how I still feel about how Ron appeared to write it: they were kids, it was all a dream. No more MIs.
Hmmm...I never really got that vibe, but I guess it was just because I felt the ending set up so many possibilities that I didn't conceive of the idea that they would go unexplored.
So when LucasArts released Curse and had Voodoo Lady/LeChuck explain it all away so as to make way for yet more sequels, I was very pleased and relieved. So as a result, I tend to buy LucasArts'/LeChuck's story because the kid in me wants to believe it all to be real in the LucasArts Pirate Universe.
I guess in my imagination, the truth is a hybrid...since you've read my theory of Guybrushes reality, you know that I think it's a modern mind reliving fantasies through the lens of his childhood...LeChucks explanation is a way for his damaged psyche to explain the delusions he's experiencing to himself - lucidity became confusing as consciousness almost was regained.
The only other explanation I've heard that holds a candle to it is yours, which is a very adult take that allows us to do exactly what Guybrush is doing (ie. "**** you, reality! I'm enjoying myself here and that's the way it's going to stay!")
I guess my theory was just my own way of resolving the fact that at the end of MI2, Guybrush and Chuckie are shown as children, but Elaine is still standing there speculating to herself that Guybrush is under the influence of a spell. While that could of course be the case, it still leaves the pesky problem of the voodoo doll working on LeChuck. This theory encompasses mutliple versions of reality that are all true...from a certain point of view.
I hadn't thought of that possibility. Largo and de Singe could shake hands on the "scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" philosophy. That would mean Largo helps de Singe out in capturing Guybrush (while still being worried over the possibility Guybrush still has his voodoo doll), while the surgeon has to help Largo get his old master evil again (probably in demon form, like he was in Curse).
That would be *my* fanboy way of taking the story, but I have a feeling that Telltale is trying really hard to minimize the cameos. I can't fault them..I know they want to tell their own stories. I just always felt that Largo was underused, and would love to see him again.
I'd forgotten about that. As a kid, that was very vivid in my head, despite how adult the level of hatred was. Did anyone else get that too?
That line is one of my favorites....mainly because it shows that LeChuck himself was in great pain after being disincorporated by the root beer, and he bore a SERIOUS grudge. He fully intended to repay Guybrush in kind, and knowing how serious his intentions were lent weight to the entire story...it's why the ending works so well. LeChuck is outright scary. Could the same be said now?
Bring back Insult Swordfighting, please! It worked really well in SMI, was missing in MI2, made a good reprise in Curse and Escape screwed it up by "assigning the paradigm to a whole host of other pirate pastimes". There're some surprisingly good ones in a dedicated thread, so I hope TT take advantage of this with a last-minute ad hoc change.
This is one area that I have to disagree with...I know a lot of fans want insult sword-fighting back, but it's been done in two games, in two different varieties. I think at this point it's best not to steal from previous installments anymore than necessary...there's already plenty of complaints about the first episode re-using gags. I'm interested to see what else they come up with. (Limerick Cannon-Firing?)
Characters I feel you must resurrect: the Barbershop Quartet, Largo LaGrande, Captain Smirk, Murray, Wally and/or King Andre (preferably in his smuggler's cove, where Guybrush must haggle to get something he needs). Comebacks, not cameos. Murray's reappearance in Escape was pathetic.
Strike Captain Smirk and Waly, and I'd agree with you whole-heartedly...but as said before, I expect they're going to keep additional reappearances of old characters to a minimum.
thatdude98:
Okay, sladerlmc77, tell me how the others were different.
I've actually done so multiple times throughout the thread, but it's getting a little long, so I don't mind repeating myself. To your points, below:
MI has NEVER had real pirates.
Actually, it's had several. Some of this is certainly up to interpretation, but the best examples I can give you are Mancomb Seepgood, Esteban, Captain Rottingham, and the Barbershop Quartet.
You may make the case that Mancomb and Esteban never were seen on a ship, doing piratey things, but I would counter that they had every reason to fear LeChuck. Can you honestly tell me that you wouldn't expect them to be back on the sea, plundering and pillaging after LeChuck was defeated?
As for Captain Rottingham and the Barbershop Quartet - Rottingham DID plunder and terrorize other pirates on the sea, going so far as stealing your map and trying to steal a treasure out from under your nose.
And while the Pirates of the Barbery Coast may have temporarily given up the seafaring life, once you proved your worth they happily joined your crew...and then just as happily mutinied and stole your ship at the first opportunity after the shipwreck. Certainly sounds piratey to me.
Could you say the same about any of the "pirates" in Escape from Monkey Island?
ust a buncha pirate wannabes, like Guybrush.
Here's an interesting mental excercise (and I think part of where the subconscious appeal of the series comes from) - if the MAJORITY of the group that you're trying to join says you're not up to snuff, even if you follow the rules they set forth - who's right?
In other words...let's say 98% of the population calls themselves a pirate, and says that to be a pirate you must swordfight, find treasure, and steal.
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you become the best swordsman in the world, that you dig up the worlds richest treasures, and you steal from the most heavily guarded vault in the world.
When you show up to report your progress to the pirates, they laugh at you and say you're doing it all wrong.
The thing is...there's 98% of them, and 2% of you. Who's the real pirate? Logic says the majority rules.
I think the joke is honestly, of COURSE Guybrush is doing all the things that they say a pirate should be doing, and probably doing it better than any one of them - but he's still not a pirate. Why? Because his attutide is all wrong. He's TRYING to hard...to be a pirate, it turns out you really have to be a grog-swilling foul-smelling pig - and it helps if you're lazy and foul-tempered. Despite the fact that he's doing everything they say he should be doing, Guybrush will never be a grog-swilling foul-smelling pig, or lazy and foul-tempered. He's just too innocent, and that's why we love him.
Besides, the whole point of EMI was the touristy atmosphere.
I guess that depends on your take. Mine is that the whole point of EMI was to cash in on the Monkey Island Brand name.
The main villain was making it touristy on purpose.
Ahhh, but who was this "main" villain? A brand new character, who relegated LeChuck to a second banana? This undermines every other game in the series, and frankly disrespects the series by trying to make a "better" villain.
I think that EMI should be cut more slack.
Strangely enough, I do agree here. I don't think Escape deserves the outright hatred it gets, but I do think it's an excellent case study to see what NOT to do in a Monkey Island Game.
Every writer is of course going to want to put their own imprint on the series, and that's fine...but Escape crossed the line and disrespected previous continuity. Sometimes you can play around with continuity, and it all works out...LeChucks Revenge and Curse are the best examples how how to do it right. Escape actively BROKE continuity on purpose, and left no easy way to repair it. The damage done there necessitated the fiction of an "unseen" Monkey Island 5 that would clear up all of the confusion without actually having to...um...clear up the confusion. I think it was a brilliant idea on Telltales part to do so.
I thought the game was great.
I'm glad you enjoyed it. There are parts of the game that work, and there were even a few flashes of tarnished genius....unfortunately, I feel that the whole was less than the sum of its parts.
The only problems it had were poor polishing and Monkey Combat.
I would argue that there were quite a few more problems than that (primarily story based), but I've already mentioned those above.
Okay, sladerlmc77, tell me how the others were different. MI has NEVER had real pirates. Just a buncha pirate wannabes, like Guybrush. Sure, some are more piratey than others, but I have yet to see any real ones. Besides, the whole point of EMI was the touristy atmosphere. It was part of the story! The main villain was making it touristy on purpose. I think that EMI should be cut more slack. It was, after all, the last monkey island game for nine years. I thought the game was great. The only problems it had were poor polishing and Monkey Combat.
Funny to see how different people see the games differently
When i first played the game at maybe 12 or 13 i also saw them as being bascially not much more than a bunch of silly jokes, and didn't pay so much attention to the plot, which seemed to be there mostly to tie the jokes together.
But replaying them later i really think it's the other way around.
There's nothing funny in the basic plot of the first games - NOTHING. The stories are actually quite classic, maybe even a bit cliché, but also dead serious. The basic formula seems to be : "build a solid backbone (the story), and then throw in as many jokes and funny situations as you can to flesh it all out".
Now obviously different people will respond differently and at different things, but if you think about it it really seems to be the way they're done. And this is what gives the game that constantly ambiguous feel : "It's silly, but at the same time, something serious is actually going on" (Would you actually actually even WANT to complete the game if there weren't ? This isn't Sam and Max - Pure whackyness works great for them, but i don't think it would in MI. Not the right setting or characters for that).
And this all applies to the characters as well. They ARE pirates, just twisted in some way in order to get something funny. They're NOT JUST silly characters trying to be pirates parody.
Now EMI wasn't a bad game as such, but this is where it misses the point. You're right, the touristy base wasn't uninsteresting, and i guess it's the way the writers thought of handling the whole anachronism thing. But it just didn't feel "right", because it seems the joke was now the plot itself. It's all a question of balance, which i think they got wrong for this one.
People have pointed out a lot of others flaws for this game (interface, continuity, monkey combat, blablabla), but i really think the main problem lies in the plot. If this had been "right" i'm sure a LOT more people wouldn't mind so much about the other flaws.
I´m really glad with the TT work. Just in the intro they do a racconto of the previous MI and they add a change to the plot: LeChuck is now... a different kind of monster? no... a human. That was brilliant in his simplicity. I think that the interactions beetween a human Lechuck and Guybrush have the potential to make this series the best MI. And MI2 is in the first position of my list of favorite games...
While Escape angered people for being too touristy, not piratey at all, abandoning point-and-click, creating a new baddie to steal the show as much as he did and wtf with the arcade-style insult/kombat stuff, let's not forget that there were a few decent puzzles there.
Personally, I enjoyed Eau de Pegnose, deframing, Mystes of Time, the puppet puzzle and the rock puzzle on Monkey Island.
I think there was ONE real pirate in Escape : Jumbeaux LaFeet. OK, he looks like a cheerful fellow, but he did put together a crew of cutthroats to raid Jambalaya Island and steal the bronze hat. It's even because of this raid Ozzie ordered Admiral Casaba to patrol the sea between Jambalaya and Knuttin Atoll. It's probably the only genuine act of piracy mentionned/performed in the game.
So, it's been almost a week since The Siege of Spinner Cay came out and i thought it could be interesting to get this thread back from the grave now that we've seen some evolution in the season.
Personally, i'm quite pleased with how it seems to be going, even if some things still felt "off" to me.
I won't say much about the introduction scene, cause i just think it was a masterpiece and that's all i can say about it :eek:
As far as the plot's developpement is concerned, i was quite pleased. Seems like it could get waay more complex than your good ole 'ooh, i've gotta stop evil LeChuck AGAIN", especially with the addition MacGuillicutty poxed pirates, but also of LeFlay and the confirmation than DeSinge is up to something bigger than we thought. So many characters with so many goals can lead to some really interesting plot. Also, i'm more and more convinced that the monkeys will get a part in all this.
And overall, i liked how they handled LeChuck and Elaine : You can really tell something is going on but don't get any proof, and all in all, you're left not knowing what to expect and the suspicion feels works great and deserve to be developped even further later on. But on the other hand, it had two weird moments : Elaine giving you her wedding ring for no apparent reason, and Guybrush accepting to leave her alone with LeChuck. It might all make sense when we finally know what's actually happening, but it did feel off or forced in this episode, especially the final lack of reaction by Guybrush, which contrasted with the whole jealousy thing they played on until then.
Concerning the background characters it's defintely getting better, maybe not quite "there" yet but still an improvement. I didn't think much of the merfolks, but they were still better than nipperkin or the glass blower. Winslow got some personality, and i LOVED the poxed pirates, especially the "icompetent baddies duo". It's an old trick, but it worked very well, at least for me. And Leflay just rules.
Now my biggest complain is probably the introduction of the Merfolks... No, this not another "WTF?? MERFOLKS DONT FIT IN MI!!" comment. I think they definitely CAN fit and wasn't bothered at all by the fact that they were there, but just at how it was done. They felt... well, "natural", or "casual", as if they were just part of everyday life and no one was surprised about them, which is what felt wrong...
The first episode did a great job at introducing this mysterious, anciant vaycaylian civilisation, making you wonder what the hell they were and overall surrounding them with mystery... Which just vanished as soon as you entered their port and started cracking jokes with them. I don't mind encountering them, and i thought their actual charcaters weren't bad, but i guess it lacked.. well, i don't quite know how to say it, a fantastic feel, a sense of wonder ? The city could have been abandonned but scattered with clues about them, a bit a-la atlantis, and you could have met them later on, at the very end or in a later episode...
Seems like the story IS getting darker, but here, the surnatural/voodoo/whatever element just failed to be spooky.
Won't say much about the puzzles (as it's being said everywhere already), but yeah, they were disapointing on the whole, more than in the previous episode.
The writing definitely got better, tho, especially in the dialogs. I wasn't quite satisfied yet with Guybrush in the first episode, still felt a bit off to me, but now he's definitely there. And the new LeChuck was great as well, great way to develop his character : it's unexpected but at the same time not really surprising, and his lines really help convey this whole "can i trust him or not ?" feel.
This is all i can think of right now... Overall i've got a bit mixed feelings about this one. The handling of the Merfolk did threw me off but overall, i still enjoyed the game a lot more than the first one on floatsam. I think the series is definitely improving, but is still not quite perfect yet... I'm not sure where it's gonna get, but at least i can't wait to know, so in the end i guess the goal is reached
I like what you say about the supernatural and voodoo elements being "not spooky"
Not only are they not spooky, they aren't even half serious. We collect random gold animal idols and say a completely unfunny ridiculous dog call to summon an annoying hybrid animal?
None of this is spooky or fits thematically with the Monkey Island mythos. The Merfolk were all "la de da" and not enough "watch yourself or I'll kill you with my flipper"
None of this is spooky or fits thematically with the Monkey Island mythos. The Merfolk were all "la de da" and not enough "watch yourself or I'll kill you with my flipper"
Well i don't think they SHOULD have been menacing (they could have, but them being friendly really isn't what bothered me). Just, well... Mysterious (and therefore a bit scary, but not necesseraly in a "beware or i'll feast on your entrails" way).
It could have turned pretty funny to have them just as silly/friendly as they were in this episode, BUT after some time spent wondering if you're ever gonna see them, what they are, what they want, and feeling they could be dangerous. Just build up more and then release the tension in a silly way.
That's the wrong thing about them, really, the lack of this build up.
And that kind of build up, on the other hand, is being done REALLY well with the other characters ( DeSinge on to something with guybrush being somehow special, the whole LeChuck/Elaine thing...).
Maybe they just don't want to focus too much on the merfolks and have them as not much more than an explanation for the ancient devices, prophecies and what not... But since they were basically part of the setting, it didn't help for the immersion (which is a shame, cause spinner cay truly looked splendid. I just can't help wondering how it would have felt to explore the very same place, but deserted and ripe with various clues about the people who once lived there).
Well i don't think they SHOULD have been menacing (they could have, but them being friendly really isn't what bothered me). Just, well... Mysterious (and therefore a bit scary, but not necesseraly in a "beware or i'll feast on your entrails" way).
It could have turned pretty funny to have them just as silly/friendly as they were in this episode, BUT after some time spent wondering if you're ever gonna see them, what they are, what they want, and feeling they could be dangerous. Just build up more and then release the tension in a silly way.
That's the wrong thing about them, really, the lack of this build up.
And that kind of build up, on the other hand, is being done REALLY well with the other characters ( DeSinge on to something with guybrush being somehow special, the whole LeChuck/Elaine thing...).
Maybe they just don't want to focus too much on the merfolks and have them as not much more than an explanation for the ancient devices, prophecies and what not... But since they were basically part of the setting, it didn't help for the immersion (which is a shame, cause spinner cay truly looked splendid. I just can't help wondering how it would have felt to explore the very same place, but deserted and ripe with various clues about the people who once lived there).
But Telltale are trying to break the tension. It's all getting pretty dark really and they need the merfolk to stay in the background. If they'd made the city deserted with clues and stuff like the glowing bait hidden in cavities that could only be opened with ancient codes, it would have felt too much like Indiana Jones and not Monkey Island.
Here's an interesting mental excercise (and I think part of where the subconscious appeal of the series comes from) - if the MAJORITY of the group that you're trying to join says you're not up to snuff, even if you follow the rules they set forth - who's right?
In other words...let's say 98% of the population calls themselves a pirate, and says that to be a pirate you must swordfight, find treasure, and steal.
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you become the best swordsman in the world, that you dig up the worlds richest treasures, and you steal from the most heavily guarded vault in the world.
When you show up to report your progress to the pirates, they laugh at you and say you're doing it all wrong.
The thing is...there's 98% of them, and 2% of you. Who's the real pirate? Logic says the majority rules.
I think the joke is honestly, of COURSE Guybrush is doing all the things that they say a pirate should be doing, and probably doing it better than any one of them - but he's still not a pirate. Why? Because his attutide is all wrong. He's TRYING to hard...to be a pirate, it turns out you really have to be a grog-swilling foul-smelling pig - and it helps if you're lazy and foul-tempered. Despite the fact that he's doing everything they say he should be doing, Guybrush will never be a grog-swilling foul-smelling pig, or lazy and foul-tempered. He's just too innocent, and that's why we love him.
Lorn
That isGuybrush - few people realise he is a mighty pirate though his exagerrations do not help.
SPOILERS BELOW
This is probably why Morgan le Flay works. As a subtype of privateer (A pirate who works under letter of Marque from an authority no matter how spurious), she is able to both see Guybrush as a pirate and to be a fan. She's outside the general pirate community.
If they'd made the city deserted with clues and stuff like the glowing bait hidden in cavities that could only be opened with ancient codes, it would have felt too much like Indiana Jones and not Monkey Island.
I admit that i pretty much had the fate to atlantis in mind when writing that , but the important point really was the presence of those mere people.
When i said deserted, i really meant deserted BY those mer people, i would't have minded at all if the city actually had been repopulated by other people later, or whatever (i guess you SHOULD have someone in there anyway, otherwise people would keep complaining that the game feels too empty ).
But that's rather irrelevant, my real point was about keeping the mystery around the fishfolks, not really about what "should" or "shouldn't have been there instead.
As the author of the thread, I've actually been meaning to post up another one of these about the Siege of Spinner Cay. Unfortunately, I've been moving, so I haven't had a lot of time to jump on here and write.
My question is...would your rather that I start another thread for each new episode (i.e. "The Tone of Monkey Island - The Siege of Spinner Cay")? Or should I keep all of my entries in THIS thread?
I admit that i pretty much had the fate to atlantis in mind when writing that , but the important point really was the presence of those mere people.
When i said deserted, i really meant deserted BY those mer people, i would't have minded at all if the city actually had been repopulated by other people later, or whatever (i guess you SHOULD have someone in there anyway, otherwise people would keep complaining that the game feels too empty ).
But that's rather irrelevant, my real point was about keeping the mystery around the fishfolks, not really about what "should" or "shouldn't have been there instead.
Don't get me wrong - I loved Indy2 to bits (found it the other day and played it all the way through). Nearest I have to a perfect game of the age. But turning a chapter of MI into Indy ruins the feel (aka the tone), despite working. They had this for the (really good!) idol puzzle but I don't think they should repeat it too much.
As the author of the thread, I've actually been meaning to post up another one of these about the Siege of Spinner Cay. Unfortunately, I've been moving, so I haven't had a lot of time to jump on here and write.
My question is...would your rather that I start another thread for each new episode (i.e. "The Tone of Monkey Island - The Siege of Spinner Cay")? Or should I keep all of my entries in THIS thread?
Lorn
I guess it wouldn't hurt to start a new thread, while keeping a link to this one.
Don't get me wrong - I loved Indy2 to bits (found it the other day and played it all the way through). Nearest I have to a perfect game of the age. But turning a chapter of MI into Indy ruins the feel (aka the tone), despite working. They had this for the (really good!) idol puzzle but I don't think they should repeat it too much.
Well actually i think the same... I didn't think you hated this game or whatever, and agree that my initial "suggestion" sounded like i basically wanted a remake of indy set somewhere in the carribean - which, as you said, probabaly wouldn't work so well AND wasn't actually what i was trying to say, so that's why i replied to try to clarify it and just explain that what actually happened there wasn't sooo important : it just had to had, well, the right "tone"
My question is...would your rather that I start another thread for each new episode (i.e. "The Tone of Monkey Island - The Siege of Spinner Cay")? Or should I keep all of my entries in THIS thread?
I assumed it would be simpler to just keep going on this one, since a lot of interesting discussion has already been done in there... But oh well, keeping going here or start another thread, i really don't care, so, "as author of this great thread", i guess it's up to you to decide
Astro's comments about the sudden lack of mystery with respect to the Vaycaylians are exactly how I feel about it (although I really did love them once revealed). I also would have liked more information about them for background (maybe more optional dialogue trees with bits and pieces with Tetra or Beluga or something).
Slader - new thread or not is your call, but I look forward to reading your thoughts on Spinner Cay, as I really enjoyed this thread.
Alright guys, thanks for the input. Because this thread is SO long and I want to attract newcomers, I believe I will create a new thread per each episode. I'm not going to do that tonight, I have to get some sleep...look for my thoughts on Episode 2 sometime around Friday or Saturday, though!
Comments
They already make those. My parents have (had?) a puzzle that has no edge pieces, five pieces that don't fit into the puzzle, and has repeated images on it. Two of the extra pieces even fit together, for the extra illusion of importance.
Lorn(a?), that's most of my criticisms of the first episode in a nutshell. The professional online reviewers have supported the underdog (Telltale being a very small company compared with LucasArts) because they think it shows promise and they're very pleased to see a genuine adventure game these days. But even they tickled upon a few of the faults you did!
The music, albeit faithful to tune and use of synthesizers, was as forgettable as the secondary characters (who all were one of two models with different textures on top). I can see why they implemented the player movements the way they did but it still needs some work. The voices were great. The background graphics and sound effects were superb. The inventory puzzles were clever (albeit easy). The map puzzles got tedious. It felt like a MI game! Shame they couldn't get Earl Boen, for whatever reason.
Like has been discussed, I hope the game gets darker and more serious, as one or two designers have suggested it will. This game has the potential to become as adult in terms of horror as MI2 (although they'd have to somehow have to make a character as terrifying as LeChuck was). For all those dissing the Giant Sponge - it's funny! With some followable logic a child would understand. I just hope they continue with the adult jokes but disguise them a bit more than the mention of "pirate spunk" (btw that did cause me to chuckle a lot).
I think the cliffhanger was worth it. None of us actually know who this person out of camera-shot is in the scene (even if most of us agree it's Kate Capsize/Morgan Le Flay).
The idea of Guybrush deliberately going against the Voodoo Lady's instruction to use the sponge (to destroy it instead) or for LeChuck to find it are both very intriguing possibilities.
With reference to the difficulty of puzzles, in MI2 and CMI there were two difficulty levels. In TMI, TT have decided to used a tiered hint system - they achieve the same thing by different methods. Let's hope they do scale the difficulty - and start the incline now, sharply! :P
What do I think of the other games? MI2>CMI>SMI>EMI.
SMI's plot was a simplified version of "On Stranger Tides" on a Treasure Island/Pirates of the Caribbean backdrop. It introduced us to the main characters in the series and gave us a few laughs. It didn't complicate the series too early, which was good.
MI2 threw Guybrush in at the deep end of his own quest, which unfortunately caused him to lose Elaine and cross swords (ok voodoo dolls) with LeChuck. This was a very adult game, full of the unpredictability, frustration and despair of real life. And yet in the face of being hunted down by a pissed off zombie with a vengeance, he still managed to crack a few jokes for us *coughs* pink dress *coughs*. Ron Gilbert threw the rest of the voodoo in here from the book that he didn't put in MI1. With that, he appeared to draw the franchise to a firm (and disappointing) close, but who knows what he really intended? All the game missed was insult swordfighting.
CMI brought the franchise out of the dark dusty corner of the attic and brought it down for the kids to play with. Much more light-hearted adventure that was a superb game in its own right. It had some real pirates in the supporting cast but by this point, they're a dying breed (the Barbershop Quartet, Captain Rottingham, King André).
EMI was too touristy, which seemingly everyone has picked up on. The only real pirates were LeChuck, Ozzy (he certainly behaved like a pirate overlord, despite hating all the others) and Pegnose Pete.
The one puzzle that still gets me scratching my head even today is the gambling one on Phatt Island in MI2. Are those number aliases for those hand layouts random or is there a pattern/knack? Only got it out of the 1 in 5 chance in the past (times 3 for the first time, ofc). Also, I had to refer to a walkthrough to find the book "Great Shipwrecks of our Century". While players would consider that the co-ordinates of where the ship sank might be in a library book, how do they leap to the conclusion that it's filed under 'Disasters'? I can just see people going through all the books in turn (there're about 400, I reckon). Bearing in mind you can only take out 4 books at a time, this could easily take a week. By then, the frustrated player will have given up.
From what you've all said, I really want to ride that PotC ride now before I die! Only trouble is I live in Britain, off the mainland.
I hope Largo LaGrande comes back. And the Barbershop Quartet.
Going back to reply 119, Lorn, you need to use the parrot on the coin at least four times before you get to Blood Island (the moments I remember offhand are eating the biscuit in Blondebeard's restaurant to find the maggots that eventually lead to Brimstone Beach & Palido's map, blowing the balloon in the quicksand pit, firing the pea shooter and chewing the gum). Also, there're some mildly amusing actions unimportant to the game, such as licking Haggis's chair handle.
If it's any consolation to those who found LeChuck scary in MI2 when they were kids, I didn't use the tunnels under Phatt Island at all because I thought LeChuck was going to jump out at me (I was only six years old). Two years later when I got to the end of the game, LeChuck ambushing Guybrush in the Big Whoop tunnels was predictable but I still wet myself and got nightmares. When I play it now, I still jump out of my skin every time he reappears. They managed that in DOS via good storytelling, a creepy sprite and a clever baddie melody on the internal speaker. Shame they can't manage it nowadays, despite LeChuck being way more powerful and looking a hell of a lot more dangerous!
Lorn, I find the replies you've written in his thread really insightful. Please keep them coming.
*sighs* Here we go again. I apologize if I miss some of the points I made in the earlier post, tbm...I'll do my best to reconstruct from memory. (BTW - sorry it took you so long to read through the thread, but glad you enjoyed what you've seen so far!)
With regards to the music, I don't really mind synthesized music...I listened to the original games on an internal speaker, and was still tapping my foot. (Of course, the addition of a sound card was a HUGE improvement). The main problem I had with the music in this first episode was that there was no standout theme (with the possible exception of DeSinge.) I can whistle themes from all of the other games from memory...but can't remember any of the themes from Narwhal - at least, not well enough to whistle. The opening theme was especially disappointing...it felt like there were fewer instruments, and truncating the theme is a crime.
Already, we've had two map puzzles in the first episode...the devs need to be careful about repeating themselves. They've already done two map jokes, robbed a joke about "off camera disasters" from the first game, and overused the "Guybrush not saying what the player selects" gag. I think this will become less of a problem as the writers get comfortable with writing in this universe again.
As for the loss of Earl Boen, I was disappointed that he's not reprising the role of LeChuck for this series, but I also didn't mind the new guy, who I thought did an excellent interpretation. I only hope that they bring LeChuck into more of the foreground of the successive episodes...I want more "Meanwhile" sequences!
I agree, and I'm surprised to see that so many people have latched onto this as a concern. Like "El Pollo Diablo", saying "La Esponje Grande" just makes me giggle, and if they use this element of the story the way that "On Stranger Tides" made use of the Fountain of Youth (as it seems they're intending), there is some tremendous voodoo potential here! (BTW, I do have another thread discussing the influence of "On Stranger Tides" on the series somewhere in this forum...you might enjoy that one too!)
I really, REALLY hope that this is the tack they take. If the sponge really is a powerful voodoo artifact/location, it has the potential to change the world that these pirates inhabit...power of that type can easily tempt and corrupt...and add that "depth" on the same level that LeChucks Revenge did.
The only thing that I disagree with here is that the ending of LeChucks Revenge was disappointing. I'm a firm believer that The Secret of Monkey Island was a good game, made GREAT by the second game. LeChucks Revenge raised the stakes, and gave the characters depth that wasn't present in the first game. This retroactively improved the first game by making it the introductory chapter in a complex tale. I'm convinced that if LeChucks Revenge had never been released, The Secret of Monkey Island would be remembered by many as a good game, but not necessarily a classic.
Also - the ending of LeChucks Revenge is brilliant in that it allows the player to decide for themselves the meaning of everything that is happening in the series. To this day, we still debate what (if anything) the series is *really* about...by leaving it open ended, we can fill in the areas around the cracks with our own imagination. I agree that on the first play through, that shocking ending felt like having a bucket of ice water thrown on you...but now I can only view it as brilliant scripting by a confident writer. He trusted the audience enough NOT to explain everything, and I respect that.
The beauty of Curse is that it gives enough of an explanation to the ending of LeChucks Revenge to let the player move past it, but is still open-ended and self-contradictory enough to not necessarily be the truth...still allowing the player to make up their own mind about the events of the previous games.
Even though Curse wasn't written by Ron Gilbert, I view it as the perfect companion to the first two games...it's true that it's less dark than "LeChucks Revenge", but it lightened it up *just* enough while still having dark elements. (Blood and Skull Islands in particular!) It's also the game that gave me the most laughs, so I'm always surprised by those who see it as the beginning of a downward trend. For myself, I don't see any daylight between Curse and the first two entries in the series - it seems to me to be the perfect complement.
Ugh. Can't agree here. There WERE no real pirates in Escape...not even LeChuck. And relegating LeChuck to a second banana to a new character was an outright crime. Also - what would you say LeChuck was in the fourth episode? A ghost pirate? A zombie pirate? A demon pirate? Why can he now suddenly shift forms at whim? And what the heck did he end up as at the end? I felt the developers really hadn't paid attention to what made the previous games work in this one...almost like they just wanted to take the concept and run with their own "improved" version of the story. To my mind, the less said about Escape, the better.
Yes. Do, if you EVER get the chance. It's been years since I've been to Disneyland. The last time I was there, I was still a kid. That said, Pirates definitely imprinted my imagination.
A few months ago, I found out that I'm going to be a father. Last month, I learned that I'm going to have a son. We're going to deck out the nursery in a pirate theme, and I look forward to reading Treasure Island to him when he's old enough.
Somehow, when he's old enough, I'm going to get us back down there so he can go on the ride. It seems silly that a gussied up amusement park ride can really make you feel like a kid, transported into a different reality...but that's exactly what Pirates does. It makes the pirates in your imagination REAL, for just a few minutes.
If you aren't able to ever make it here to go on the ride, the next best thing I could recommend is to buy the two-disk version of Curse of the Black Pearl. On the bonus features is an episode of "Walt Disney Presents" that was broadcast when the ride first opened. You get to see the events that took place in the park that day (1961? I dont' remember the exact date)...and a cameraman goes on the ride, giving you a video tour. It's the next best thing to being there, and fun to see just to see how much things have changed in the modern day. (Incidentally, I understand the ride has been updated a bit since the movies came out...Jack Sparrow and Davey Jones now make appearances, so I'm anxious to see that.)
Meeee too. I would especially love to see Largo working with LeSinge to transform LeChuck back into his earlier incarnation.
Yeah...I was a little embarrassed that I actually got stuck on these puzzles. They never gave me a problem when I first played the games, so I chalk it up to being rusty. (It's been a few years since Adventure Games have been in vogue, after all). I think this argues in favor of ramping up the difficulty level slowly in the introductory episode...we need to remember how to work those mental muscles before they really start putting us through the paces. (That said, I do hope we're running in the Olympics before all is said and done!)
And isn't it interesting how many people have brought this point up? I thought I was the only one terrified by LeChucks surprise appearances at the end of the game. I was gratified to find that that sense of dread was felt by others. I think it was a combination of his sudden appearance, the thumping music, and his utter hatred of Guybrush. "...I will then take your bones, still alive and in great pain and make them into a chair. I will call it my "Screaming Chair". Every day I will sit in it and listen to you scream. Any questions?"
Guybrush should *not* be laughing at LeChuck...at least, not usually. LeChuck in THIS mode is somebody to take seriously, not a buffoon.
I'm glad you've enjoyed the thread, and I hope you keep contributing too!
*laughs* Close, but no cigar. I used to belong to a LAN party club, and all the members had handles. Mine was "Slader." My full name is "Lorn Michael Conner", and the year of my birth was 1977. Hence, "sladerlmc77."
Lorn
If we're on the right track in thinking that Le Esponje Grande serves the same purpose as the Fountain of Youth in "On Stranger Tides", then it basically IS the Crossroads....the point where this world and the otherworld meet.
If Guybrush DOES contrive to destroy the Crossroads....does that mean there is now no boundary between this world and the spirit world?
That the dead would walk over the Greater Tri-Island Area?
Dogs and Cats living together? Mass Hysteria?
Just some food for thought.
Lorn
Actually, i haven't seen any complains about la esponja grande except my own
But like i said, i haven't made it a really big issue yet.. It could develop in a lot of different ways, and we know too little about it now to really have an opinion. The only thing that "scares" me is if it ends up being just a silly funny thing while still being a central part of the plot -which, as it's been said, has to be kinda serious. IMO, "silly funny things" need to be kind of in the background, not part of the main and actual story. (just like el pollo diablo).
But Lorn's thoughts about it are quite interesting, so i'll just wait until i see what they make out of it. It COULD end up lame, but i have to agree that it could end up pretty interesting as well
do they have it at eurodisney?
Yep, although it is the good old version without any cameos from Barbossa, Jack Sparrow or Davey Jones.
Do you meant this thread
(aside from the previously noted difference at the EuroDisney park, without the upgrades?)
Lorn
But I always found the rest... wrong, somehow : the crypts and cemetery, the gravedigger, the old windmill, the Goodsoup inn, madam Xima... looked like they were taken straight from an old Dracula movie. Which I guess was kinda the point (hence the name "Blood island"), but that seemed out of place in the Caribbean nonetheless.
MI2 was my favourite as well, and recently playing through the first 3 again before the launch of Tales it's the one that made me actually laugh the most, out loud and hard.
Whoever asked about the backalley gambling puzzle, the answer is just how many fingers he holds up the first time, the amount he's holding up at the end means nothing. Evil, yes, but I somehow worked it out when I was 12
I'm looking forward to seeing this season develop. They DO have Dave grossman and I loved the sam and max seasons so.. We'll see. That said, I hope they read at least your review and take some of it on board
What I loved about Blood Island was the look/feel, and the amazing music. The map was absolutely gorgeous as well.
And I'm very pleased you respect what I have to say, despite just reiterating what has already been said.
Please don't get me wrong - I liked it but it did nothing for me like Woodtick, the two LeChuck themes, Plunder Island themes and the smugglers' cave (heehee the duck was a great way to puncture the tension; made me laugh a lot) did. For the opening, copying the intro of CMI would maybe have been more sensible (if they were allowed to).
That was nothing short of criminal! Felt like it was all the time! Say what I tell you, Guybrush! And there seemed no challenge with persuading characters to part with their stuff if they're persuadable. Any response seemed to do in those situations. But it was well acted and the humour was there.
I thought so too. But that "har har har!" was taking-the-piss funny the first time. Yes, TT please insert those Meanwhiles that worked so well in the other games! (unless you're deliberately keeping LeChuck's activities under wraps)
Unless I'm interpretting wrong (having not yet read "On Stranger Tides" myself), I disagree in that FOY = Crossroads. Crossroads = Big Whoop (as I see it), whereas Poxed Hand/Pox of LeChuck = a bit like the personality crossover between Spock and McCoy in the 3rd Star Trek film (sorry if this is out of ppl's area of knowledge). I tend to agree that the MI version of the Fountain of Youth (Le Esponja Grande) is central to the plot and that there're a few ways they could play it. This game seems a lot darker in references so far to Curse, so I'd say Guybrush does not 100% intend to use the Sponge when he finds it (and Evil will continue to blow around like a lazy drunken whirlwind on ecstasy, causing havoc wherever it happens to go).
It's where I got most of my information from, having not read the book. Unfortunately I only noticed it was you who had written all that (and an excellent summary/essay it was!) once I'd finished up my long post in here, so didn't credit you like I should have done. I'm sorry.
That's how I still feel about how Ron appeared to write it: they were kids, it was all a dream. No more MIs. So when LucasArts released Curse and had Voodoo Lady/LeChuck explain it all away so as to make way for yet more sequels, I was very pleased and relieved. So as a result, I tend to buy LucasArts'/LeChuck's story because the kid in me wants to believe it all to be real in the LucasArts Pirate Universe. The only other explanation I've heard that holds a candle to it is yours, which is a very adult take that allows us to do exactly what Guybrush is doing (ie. "**** you, reality! I'm enjoying myself here and that's the way it's going to stay!")
Couldn't agree more with this. In fact, it ties it off as a trilogy. If we ignore EMI, we could easily have Tales there after the trilogy (and I think the only mention of Escape existing is "Ultimate Insult" in the recipe for the cutlass).
Wow. Just like I made it my mission to see my two favourite bands before I die (I'm seeing the last one on Sunday XD), I'm making this ride a mission too, even if I have to have kids as an excuse to go to Disneyland. As a pirate adventure game fan, it's my duty to set out on a pilgramage to pay homage.
That's excellent news! I hope he takes to the pirate stuff. Most young boys do. I also hope that you manage to find time to finish TMI (and whatever gets produced afterwards). Considering how tied up Dominic always seems to be with his family life, this will probably be difficult.
I've only got the trilogy box set but I think my stepsister has the 2-disc Curse of the Black Pearl. I'll ask her to dig it out.
I hadn't thought of that possibility. Largo and de Singe could shake hands on the "scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" philosophy. That would mean Largo helps de Singe out in capturing Guybrush (while still being worried over the possibility Guybrush still has his voodoo doll), while the surgeon has to help Largo get his old master evil again (probably in demon form, like he was in Curse).
I'd forgotten about that. As a kid, that was very vivid in my head, despite how adult the level of hatred was. Did anyone else get that too? And it was great that once LeChuck left the scene so his trap could run its deadly course, the way out was spitting (and often hitting Wally, which I admit to laughing very hard to). Curse had this type of thing too with the duck rock at the top of Skull Island. I don't recall anything like that in SMI or EMI.
I had the right idea (sort of). Mine's a lot simpler: initials + year of birth (I'm Tom, btw)
I thought Flotsam felt like a cross between Lucre and Dinky. Neither of those are piratey islands (but Dinky did have a treasure on it and Lucre had an elusive pirate thief). You get your instructions for being led to Deep Gut immediately and they felt like the 3 trials in SMI (only less legendary). And as in CMI, (almost) all is explained when you visit the Voodoo Lady. This seems to be a fairly standard way of starting an MI game, along with a short tutorial section before the first main island. Good way in for new adventure gamers but I hope the game gets progressively meatier.
We don't know whether this is going on or not yet, but all the same I thing it should be plugged: force Guybrush to pick things up he'll use later (and also reusing items). Sierra made the mistake of not letting you know you need something until it's too late to do anything besides restore your game. I'm pleased in MI2, you needed to clean up spit with paper that would later get used for recording instructions to navigate LeChuck's fortress. Again in MI2, Stan gives you a hanky, which you then give to LeChuck (eww). CMI did it with wooden nickels, which were in front of the diamond ring. Again in CMI, you needed the scissors and Murray's arm on Blood Island. Don't know what benefit I can use to back this suggestion up but I'm sure someone will find one.
Bring back Insult Swordfighting, please! It worked really well in SMI, was missing in MI2, made a good reprise in Curse and Escape screwed it up by "assigning the paradigm to a whole host of other pirate pastimes". There're some surprisingly good ones in a dedicated thread, so I hope TT take advantage of this with a last-minute ad hoc change.
Of all the user interfaces we've had with the games, I think CMI's worked best. But then if you're going to introduce Escape-like 3D movements, use of a mouse (a 2D device) is always going to be tricky. But please keep your gorgeous 3D environments and clever moving camera on stairs and bridges.
The music needs to be more memorable, like in CMI. Also, make more effort with your secondary characters! We all notice the re-use of the thin and fat models with different textures and find the contents of their characters very bland indeed. I can't even remember their surnames! I know they're not important to the plot but look at how memorable the barbers are from Curse! You need characters like that. But on new baddies/primary characters, I can't compliment you enough on Marquis de Singe. Better than Ozzy Mandrill anyday! In fact, better than Largo LaGrande! I can't give higher praise than that.
Oh and please make the levels harder. Recipe puzzles are good (seen with the trip to MI in SMI, the voodoo dolls in MI2, the head-clearing remedy in CMI {that was weaker} and the Eau de Pegnose in EMI). The escape from de Singe's lab was brilliant. I also enjoyed the idol puzzle. Maybe bring in a puzzle like acquiring the Phatt Island map piece in MI2. Also good from way back was escaping the quicksand pit on Plunder. And what Murray was used for on Blood.
Characters I feel you must resurrect: the Barbershop Quartet, Largo LaGrande, Captain Smirk, Murray, Wally and/or King Andre (preferably in his smuggler's cove, where Guybrush must haggle to get something he needs). Comebacks, not cameos. Murray's reappearance in Escape was pathetic.
Other than that, keep up the good work! It means a lot to us.
Many thanks for that. I'm playing through MI2 again now, as it happens.
I agree with this.
Okay, sladerlmc77, tell me how the others were different. MI has NEVER had real pirates. Just a buncha pirate wannabes, like Guybrush. Sure, some are more piratey than others, but I have yet to see any real ones. Besides, the whole point of EMI was the touristy atmosphere. It was part of the story! The main villain was making it touristy on purpose. I think that EMI should be cut more slack. It was, after all, the last monkey island game for nine years. I thought the game was great. The only problems it had were poor polishing and Monkey Combat.
Part of what I like about Blood Island is the return of the cannibals, particularly centered around the concept of a lactose intolerant volcano god. (Being lactose-intolerant myself, and fond of volcanos, it's hard for me not to like the location)
I felt the location worked primarily because, while not exactly piratey, it certainly fit the period. (Bodies were often sold to "mad" doctors of the time for research...handling of bodies could be quite shady). Besides, the Flying Welshman is hilarious in his own right.
vague_hit:
THANK YOU. I've never actually figured out how that worked either...I always had to resort to a "save and restore" to decipher that puzzle. I feel like a dunce now!
tbm1986:
I suppose you could say that I interpret "Big Whoop" as a red herring planted by LeChuck - a snare designed to draw Guybrush into his clutches, while the "real" Crossroads/Ultimate Power MacGuffin waits in the background. Of course, this would sort of foul up the idea of Big Whoop/The Monkey Head being the Gateway to Hell.
The two interesting possibilities that I see for the sponge involve Guybrush either being corrupted by its power and becoming an uber-pirate, or destroying it - thereby unleashing the dead all throughout the world.
Hmmm...I never really got that vibe, but I guess it was just because I felt the ending set up so many possibilities that I didn't conceive of the idea that they would go unexplored.
I guess in my imagination, the truth is a hybrid...since you've read my theory of Guybrushes reality, you know that I think it's a modern mind reliving fantasies through the lens of his childhood...LeChucks explanation is a way for his damaged psyche to explain the delusions he's experiencing to himself - lucidity became confusing as consciousness almost was regained.
I guess my theory was just my own way of resolving the fact that at the end of MI2, Guybrush and Chuckie are shown as children, but Elaine is still standing there speculating to herself that Guybrush is under the influence of a spell. While that could of course be the case, it still leaves the pesky problem of the voodoo doll working on LeChuck. This theory encompasses mutliple versions of reality that are all true...from a certain point of view.
That would be *my* fanboy way of taking the story, but I have a feeling that Telltale is trying really hard to minimize the cameos. I can't fault them..I know they want to tell their own stories. I just always felt that Largo was underused, and would love to see him again.
That line is one of my favorites....mainly because it shows that LeChuck himself was in great pain after being disincorporated by the root beer, and he bore a SERIOUS grudge. He fully intended to repay Guybrush in kind, and knowing how serious his intentions were lent weight to the entire story...it's why the ending works so well. LeChuck is outright scary. Could the same be said now?
This is one area that I have to disagree with...I know a lot of fans want insult sword-fighting back, but it's been done in two games, in two different varieties. I think at this point it's best not to steal from previous installments anymore than necessary...there's already plenty of complaints about the first episode re-using gags. I'm interested to see what else they come up with. (Limerick Cannon-Firing?)
Strike Captain Smirk and Waly, and I'd agree with you whole-heartedly...but as said before, I expect they're going to keep additional reappearances of old characters to a minimum.
thatdude98:
I've actually done so multiple times throughout the thread, but it's getting a little long, so I don't mind repeating myself. To your points, below:
Actually, it's had several. Some of this is certainly up to interpretation, but the best examples I can give you are Mancomb Seepgood, Esteban, Captain Rottingham, and the Barbershop Quartet.
You may make the case that Mancomb and Esteban never were seen on a ship, doing piratey things, but I would counter that they had every reason to fear LeChuck. Can you honestly tell me that you wouldn't expect them to be back on the sea, plundering and pillaging after LeChuck was defeated?
As for Captain Rottingham and the Barbershop Quartet - Rottingham DID plunder and terrorize other pirates on the sea, going so far as stealing your map and trying to steal a treasure out from under your nose.
And while the Pirates of the Barbery Coast may have temporarily given up the seafaring life, once you proved your worth they happily joined your crew...and then just as happily mutinied and stole your ship at the first opportunity after the shipwreck. Certainly sounds piratey to me.
Could you say the same about any of the "pirates" in Escape from Monkey Island?
Here's an interesting mental excercise (and I think part of where the subconscious appeal of the series comes from) - if the MAJORITY of the group that you're trying to join says you're not up to snuff, even if you follow the rules they set forth - who's right?
In other words...let's say 98% of the population calls themselves a pirate, and says that to be a pirate you must swordfight, find treasure, and steal.
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you become the best swordsman in the world, that you dig up the worlds richest treasures, and you steal from the most heavily guarded vault in the world.
When you show up to report your progress to the pirates, they laugh at you and say you're doing it all wrong.
The thing is...there's 98% of them, and 2% of you. Who's the real pirate? Logic says the majority rules.
I think the joke is honestly, of COURSE Guybrush is doing all the things that they say a pirate should be doing, and probably doing it better than any one of them - but he's still not a pirate. Why? Because his attutide is all wrong. He's TRYING to hard...to be a pirate, it turns out you really have to be a grog-swilling foul-smelling pig - and it helps if you're lazy and foul-tempered. Despite the fact that he's doing everything they say he should be doing, Guybrush will never be a grog-swilling foul-smelling pig, or lazy and foul-tempered. He's just too innocent, and that's why we love him.
I guess that depends on your take. Mine is that the whole point of EMI was to cash in on the Monkey Island Brand name.
Ahhh, but who was this "main" villain? A brand new character, who relegated LeChuck to a second banana? This undermines every other game in the series, and frankly disrespects the series by trying to make a "better" villain.
Strangely enough, I do agree here. I don't think Escape deserves the outright hatred it gets, but I do think it's an excellent case study to see what NOT to do in a Monkey Island Game.
Every writer is of course going to want to put their own imprint on the series, and that's fine...but Escape crossed the line and disrespected previous continuity. Sometimes you can play around with continuity, and it all works out...LeChucks Revenge and Curse are the best examples how how to do it right. Escape actively BROKE continuity on purpose, and left no easy way to repair it. The damage done there necessitated the fiction of an "unseen" Monkey Island 5 that would clear up all of the confusion without actually having to...um...clear up the confusion. I think it was a brilliant idea on Telltales part to do so.
I'm glad you enjoyed it. There are parts of the game that work, and there were even a few flashes of tarnished genius....unfortunately, I feel that the whole was less than the sum of its parts.
I would argue that there were quite a few more problems than that (primarily story based), but I've already mentioned those above.
Lorn
Funny to see how different people see the games differently
When i first played the game at maybe 12 or 13 i also saw them as being bascially not much more than a bunch of silly jokes, and didn't pay so much attention to the plot, which seemed to be there mostly to tie the jokes together.
But replaying them later i really think it's the other way around.
There's nothing funny in the basic plot of the first games - NOTHING. The stories are actually quite classic, maybe even a bit cliché, but also dead serious. The basic formula seems to be : "build a solid backbone (the story), and then throw in as many jokes and funny situations as you can to flesh it all out".
Now obviously different people will respond differently and at different things, but if you think about it it really seems to be the way they're done. And this is what gives the game that constantly ambiguous feel : "It's silly, but at the same time, something serious is actually going on" (Would you actually actually even WANT to complete the game if there weren't ? This isn't Sam and Max - Pure whackyness works great for them, but i don't think it would in MI. Not the right setting or characters for that).
And this all applies to the characters as well. They ARE pirates, just twisted in some way in order to get something funny. They're NOT JUST silly characters trying to be pirates parody.
Now EMI wasn't a bad game as such, but this is where it misses the point. You're right, the touristy base wasn't uninsteresting, and i guess it's the way the writers thought of handling the whole anachronism thing. But it just didn't feel "right", because it seems the joke was now the plot itself. It's all a question of balance, which i think they got wrong for this one.
People have pointed out a lot of others flaws for this game (interface, continuity, monkey combat, blablabla), but i really think the main problem lies in the plot. If this had been "right" i'm sure a LOT more people wouldn't mind so much about the other flaws.
Personally, I enjoyed Eau de Pegnose, deframing, Mystes of Time, the puppet puzzle and the rock puzzle on Monkey Island.
Sorry fot the off-topic, it had to be said
Personally, i'm quite pleased with how it seems to be going, even if some things still felt "off" to me.
I won't say much about the introduction scene, cause i just think it was a masterpiece and that's all i can say about it :eek:
As far as the plot's developpement is concerned, i was quite pleased. Seems like it could get waay more complex than your good ole 'ooh, i've gotta stop evil LeChuck AGAIN", especially with the addition MacGuillicutty poxed pirates, but also of LeFlay and the confirmation than DeSinge is up to something bigger than we thought. So many characters with so many goals can lead to some really interesting plot. Also, i'm more and more convinced that the monkeys will get a part in all this.
And overall, i liked how they handled LeChuck and Elaine : You can really tell something is going on but don't get any proof, and all in all, you're left not knowing what to expect and the suspicion feels works great and deserve to be developped even further later on. But on the other hand, it had two weird moments : Elaine giving you her wedding ring for no apparent reason, and Guybrush accepting to leave her alone with LeChuck. It might all make sense when we finally know what's actually happening, but it did feel off or forced in this episode, especially the final lack of reaction by Guybrush, which contrasted with the whole jealousy thing they played on until then.
Concerning the background characters it's defintely getting better, maybe not quite "there" yet but still an improvement. I didn't think much of the merfolks, but they were still better than nipperkin or the glass blower. Winslow got some personality, and i LOVED the poxed pirates, especially the "icompetent baddies duo". It's an old trick, but it worked very well, at least for me. And Leflay just rules.
Now my biggest complain is probably the introduction of the Merfolks... No, this not another "WTF?? MERFOLKS DONT FIT IN MI!!" comment. I think they definitely CAN fit and wasn't bothered at all by the fact that they were there, but just at how it was done. They felt... well, "natural", or "casual", as if they were just part of everyday life and no one was surprised about them, which is what felt wrong...
The first episode did a great job at introducing this mysterious, anciant vaycaylian civilisation, making you wonder what the hell they were and overall surrounding them with mystery... Which just vanished as soon as you entered their port and started cracking jokes with them. I don't mind encountering them, and i thought their actual charcaters weren't bad, but i guess it lacked.. well, i don't quite know how to say it, a fantastic feel, a sense of wonder ? The city could have been abandonned but scattered with clues about them, a bit a-la atlantis, and you could have met them later on, at the very end or in a later episode...
Seems like the story IS getting darker, but here, the surnatural/voodoo/whatever element just failed to be spooky.
Won't say much about the puzzles (as it's being said everywhere already), but yeah, they were disapointing on the whole, more than in the previous episode.
The writing definitely got better, tho, especially in the dialogs. I wasn't quite satisfied yet with Guybrush in the first episode, still felt a bit off to me, but now he's definitely there. And the new LeChuck was great as well, great way to develop his character : it's unexpected but at the same time not really surprising, and his lines really help convey this whole "can i trust him or not ?" feel.
This is all i can think of right now... Overall i've got a bit mixed feelings about this one. The handling of the Merfolk did threw me off but overall, i still enjoyed the game a lot more than the first one on floatsam. I think the series is definitely improving, but is still not quite perfect yet... I'm not sure where it's gonna get, but at least i can't wait to know, so in the end i guess the goal is reached
Not only are they not spooky, they aren't even half serious. We collect random gold animal idols and say a completely unfunny ridiculous dog call to summon an annoying hybrid animal?
None of this is spooky or fits thematically with the Monkey Island mythos. The Merfolk were all "la de da" and not enough "watch yourself or I'll kill you with my flipper"
Well i don't think they SHOULD have been menacing (they could have, but them being friendly really isn't what bothered me). Just, well... Mysterious (and therefore a bit scary, but not necesseraly in a "beware or i'll feast on your entrails" way).
It could have turned pretty funny to have them just as silly/friendly as they were in this episode, BUT after some time spent wondering if you're ever gonna see them, what they are, what they want, and feeling they could be dangerous. Just build up more and then release the tension in a silly way.
That's the wrong thing about them, really, the lack of this build up.
And that kind of build up, on the other hand, is being done REALLY well with the other characters ( DeSinge on to something with guybrush being somehow special, the whole LeChuck/Elaine thing...).
Maybe they just don't want to focus too much on the merfolks and have them as not much more than an explanation for the ancient devices, prophecies and what not... But since they were basically part of the setting, it didn't help for the immersion (which is a shame, cause spinner cay truly looked splendid. I just can't help wondering how it would have felt to explore the very same place, but deserted and ripe with various clues about the people who once lived there).
But Telltale are trying to break the tension. It's all getting pretty dark really and they need the merfolk to stay in the background. If they'd made the city deserted with clues and stuff like the glowing bait hidden in cavities that could only be opened with ancient codes, it would have felt too much like Indiana Jones and not Monkey Island.
That isGuybrush - few people realise he is a mighty pirate though his exagerrations do not help.
SPOILERS BELOW
I admit that i pretty much had the fate to atlantis in mind when writing that
When i said deserted, i really meant deserted BY those mer people, i would't have minded at all if the city actually had been repopulated by other people later, or whatever (i guess you SHOULD have someone in there anyway, otherwise people would keep complaining that the game feels too empty
But that's rather irrelevant, my real point was about keeping the mystery around the fishfolks, not really about what "should" or "shouldn't have been there instead.
When we say "real pirate", we really mean "Errol Flynn" pirate, right?
As the author of the thread, I've actually been meaning to post up another one of these about the Siege of Spinner Cay. Unfortunately, I've been moving, so I haven't had a lot of time to jump on here and write.
My question is...would your rather that I start another thread for each new episode (i.e. "The Tone of Monkey Island - The Siege of Spinner Cay")? Or should I keep all of my entries in THIS thread?
Lorn
Don't get me wrong - I loved Indy2 to bits (found it the other day and played it all the way through). Nearest I have to a perfect game of the age. But turning a chapter of MI into Indy ruins the feel (aka the tone), despite working. They had this for the (really good!) idol puzzle but I don't think they should repeat it too much.
I guess it wouldn't hurt to start a new thread, while keeping a link to this one.
Well actually i think the same... I didn't think you hated this game or whatever, and agree that my initial "suggestion" sounded like i basically wanted a remake of indy set somewhere in the carribean - which, as you said, probabaly wouldn't work so well AND wasn't actually what i was trying to say, so that's why i replied to try to clarify it and just explain that what actually happened there wasn't sooo important : it just had to had, well, the right "tone"
I assumed it would be simpler to just keep going on this one, since a lot of interesting discussion has already been done in there... But oh well, keeping going here or start another thread, i really don't care, so, "as author of this great thread", i guess it's up to you to decide
Slader - new thread or not is your call, but I look forward to reading your thoughts on Spinner Cay, as I really enjoyed this thread.
Lorn