Asher ending kind of is terrible by Westeros standards

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  • Sorry, fixed on my reviews. :)

    Wolfenus54 posted: »

    Roderik Rodrik... Never Roderik ;-;

  • edited November 2015

    It's definitely an aspect of northern Westerosi culture in particular. I'm reading straight out A World Of Ice and Fire where it says that guest right is the most sacred northern custom, and that southerners have some aspect of guest right but it doesn't loom in their minds as much. Definitely not present in Essos, where things are pretty barbaric in he first place.

    Abeille posted: »

    Now you got me. I don't remember any mention of guest rights in Essos. It might not be a thing outside of Westeros.

  • Also, I believe that if you give your guest a gift it signals the end of guest right. We could've offered him the most insulting gift imaginable and technically would be free from guest right obligations.

    ranger563 posted: »

    is everyone missing the whole bread and salt thing? The invitation is the first part of guest right, the second is dependent on the act of e

  • I can't remember, but did Asher, as Lord of the House, ever declare the Whitehills as guests in my home? If not, then they aren't guests.

    ranger563 posted: »

    is everyone missing the whole bread and salt thing? The invitation is the first part of guest right, the second is dependent on the act of e

  • Did Walder Frey?

    I mean, it's not like Asher was inviting Ludd and his bannermen to a wedding or something.

    :)

    I can't remember, but did Asher, as Lord of the House, ever declare the Whitehills as guests in my home? If not, then they aren't guests.

  • Yeah, Olenna is like, "Well, that was pretty messed up" in regards to the Red Wedding.

    The North is like, "Every man, woman, and child of the Freys should die and served in PIES."

    Which is funny because the Boltons are traitors and everyone is more like, "Eh, that was bad but treason isn't as bad as THIS."

    It's definitely an aspect of northern Westerosi culture in particular. I'm reading straight out A World Of Ice and Fire where it says that g

  • "We invite him inside to celebrate and drink to our union".

    Yeah, unfortunately they would be considered guests although I really don't agree with it. No regrets for ambushing Ludd and making him shit his pants while fleeing the great hall.

    I can't remember, but did Asher, as Lord of the House, ever declare the Whitehills as guests in my home? If not, then they aren't guests.

  • What wedding? They were meeting to finalize terms of surrender.

    Asher invited them to a wedding he accepted. I'm pretty sure that qualifies as being guests. It was a LIE to ambush them but that would mean Robb Stark and his men weren't guests at the wedding.

  • Well, this is a Medieval society. Guest right exists solely for the purpose a truce or flag of surrender or sacredness of a messenger does.

    It's to allow people to be able to relax and NOT be murdered.

    The fact the Whitehills are [censored] doesn't really change Asher threw away his honor.

    And you know what? I bet 90% of the fanbase here agrees with it being worth the price.

    Which makes it GOOD writing.

    "We invite him inside to celebrate and drink to our union". Yeah, unfortunately they would be considered guests although I really don't agree with it. No regrets for ambushing Ludd and making him shit his pants while fleeing the great hall.

  • Hm...Okay...

    This is a really debatable stuff...You can't say it is wrong, considering how much was at stake and how much the Forresters lost because of the Whitehills, but by Westeros' standard it is considered terrible.

    "We invite him inside to celebrate and drink to our union". Yeah, unfortunately they would be considered guests although I really don't agree with it. No regrets for ambushing Ludd and making him shit his pants while fleeing the great hall.

  • Olenna is like, "Well, that was pretty messed up" in regards to the Red Wedding.

    Kinda funny how she does the exact same thing moments later by poisoning Joffrey...

    Yeah, Olenna is like, "Well, that was pretty messed up" in regards to the Red Wedding. The North is like, "Every man, woman, and child of

  • Yeah, it's actual MORAL RELATIVISM!

    In Telltale!

    Amazing!

    :)

    Hm...Okay... This is a really debatable stuff...You can't say it is wrong, considering how much was at stake and how much the Forresters lost because of the Whitehills, but by Westeros' standard it is considered terrible.

  • In my playthrough you see bread and salt on the table also as the hound says "guest right don't mean shit no more" so although some people still hold it in high regard there are many who don't

  • Yeah, it's just sad Asher is one of these.

    Because, as Bran says, the Old Gods are going to punish anyone who violates it in a way which defies all logic.

  • But what if it's violated in the South? Where the Old Gods have no power?

    Yeah, it's just sad Asher is one of these. Because, as Bran says, the Old Gods are going to punish anyone who violates it in a way which defies all logic.

  • Not trying to add flames to a possible conflict, but at least it gives points to doing Rodrik's version. At least, Rodrik and the rest of the Forresters fought with all they got and they kept their honor.

  • Well, then the Tyrells will get off Scott Free.

    :)

    Oh wait.

    But what if it's violated in the South? Where the Old Gods have no power?

  • House Frey violated it in the South, they worship the Seven. They'll still get their due. Eventually.

    But what if it's violated in the South? Where the Old Gods have no power?

  • edited November 2015

    It's interesting how the game set up things so it looked like they were identical to the Starks but the game REALLY encourages you to throw honor out the window. Poor Gared Tuttle is just one example since he has to break his Nightwatch oaths no matter what but there's a lot of stuff you can do which is positively odious by medieval standards. However, we always get a good justification for it too.

    • Pretend obedience while plotting betrayal
    • Blackmail a woman into marriage
    • Betray your allies
    • Betray your friends
    • Break your oath to Talia to kill the traitor
    • Break your oath to the Night's Watch
    • Use Gwyn as bait to ambush her father
    • Kill your father-in-law with poison

    Oh Game of Thrones!

    Not trying to add flames to a possible conflict, but at least it gives points to doing Rodrik's version. At least, Rodrik and the rest of the Forresters fought with all they got and they kept their honor.

  • edited November 2015

    I had known the ending before I played, so I knew that whatever decisions I made, only few would affect the main characters' life. So I:

    • Had Mira did nothing for her family, her family would be safe until Episode 6 anyway. I asked Tom to do nothing, and he killed the Lannister so he deserved to die. I treated the future husband Morgryn nicely from the start and didn't demand anything, so they were a fine couple.

    • Had Asher protected Beskha at all cost, let het beated him without avoiding, who cares about Malcom, he would stay with Danearys anyway.

    • Had Gared became the baddass, spoilt the North Grove to anyone, told Jon Snow that Gared would do bad stuffs, didn't let Finn join him because Finn would die along the way.

    • Chose Duncan as the settinel but did everything according to Royland's suggestions: bold, unbowed, stood up against the Whitehill and Ramsay anytime... Imprision Ser Royland sothat Duncan would get kill in the end of Episode 6.

    • Agreed the poison plan just to canceled it and married Gwyn, but Lady Elissa disobeyed Asher's order and ruined everything.

    So, hornorable till the very end, but I got the Cunning title :)

    It's interesting how the game set up things so it looked like they were identical to the Starks but the game REALLY encourages you to throw

  • Southron double standards....

    Olenna is like, "Well, that was pretty messed up" in regards to the Red Wedding. Kinda funny how she does the exact same thing moments later by poisoning Joffrey...

  • Omniscience helps with decisions, I suppose.

    Asher-Gwyn posted: »

    I had known the ending before I played, so I knew that whatever decisions I made, only few would affect the main characters' life. So I:

  • Asher doesn't seem to care that much about honor. He's a fighter, and has spent a lot of time in Essos now. I think he cares more about base survival then anything else. It seems to be in his character that he'd do this, because honor means little to him. Which Gwyn knows. I doubt he'd of slept with her to begin with if honor was his biggest worry.

    Well, this is a Medieval society. Guest right exists solely for the purpose a truce or flag of surrender or sacredness of a messenger does.

  • edited November 2015

    Fun fact: Jaime's horse is called Honor :D

    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Honor

  • Guest right begins working only after a formal acceptance of bread and salt. We've never seen that scene happen.

    Asher invited them to a wedding he accepted. I'm pretty sure that qualifies as being guests. It was a LIE to ambush them but that would mean Robb Stark and his men weren't guests at the wedding.

  • Pretty sure that the guest right's breach is blamed on the host (i. e. Asher, in this case). Don't take my word for it, though, I may not be 100% correct.

    Flog61 posted: »

    Well my Asher didn't break guestright, his mother did, so no he doesn't break it no matter what.

  • What happened at the Twins was 10 times worse than what happened at Ironrath

    Why?

    the Freys are sworn to the Tullys , and the Boltons are sworn to Starks , which means what happened there was a betrayal

    The whitehills were an enemy , the were involved at the Red Wedding, and they're the ones who started this whole murdering people at weddings and meetings

    Also , I personally didn't want to ambush them , I was OK with the peace terms Ludd delivered , but Telltale were lazy and forced the House into that path

  • I didn't think it was forced since there's no way in hell your mother was letting Ludd walk out of their alive and you to marry into that foul bloodline. It was very in character that if she didn't care about guest right, she wasn't going to care about peace.

    HelloMyLord posted: »

    What happened at the Twins was 10 times worse than what happened at Ironrath Why? the Freys are sworn to the Tullys , and the Boltons

  • While I pursued Asher's ending (trying to seek peace) because I wanted to see Asher and Gwyn together, I was kinda dumbfounded at some of the stupid suggestions Gwyn made to Asher - i.e. She would exile Gryff in order to resolve conflict between the two houses.

    Did she really think that would solve the two houses' problems considering how much bad blood was spilt between them (but then again, this was the same stupid Gwyn who agreed with her father's idea to make House Forrester kneel and serve Whitehills as their bannerman in disgrace, so why am I not surprised.....)? In fact, I was quite relieved when Lady Forrester started the whole chaos and gave my Asher the justification to ram his sword against Gryff and Harys (Gryff's no. 2 thug).

    My only regret would be not being able to kill Ludd as well, but unfortunately Telltale never made that an option.

    Since my Asher has Gwyn and Talia accompanying him, it would be interesting to see where the story leads them, because only "peace" I can see between Forresters and Whitehills would be Ludd and all of Gwyn's antagonizing brothers be either killed, or be stripped of their power (army) and exiled (though even this is a dangerous path, since they may just hire sellswords like Asher did, and attack the Forresters again. Sure thing would be to just have them killed).

  • Pretty much.

    The only way peace could have possibly been achieved was for Gryff, Harys and Ludd to die. Ebbert and Torrhen as well if they gave the Forresters any issues.

  • edited November 2015

    I definitely think Torrhen will be trouble, since he's a ward of Roose Bolton (may or may not be huge trouble, but definitely create some sort of issues for the Forresters).

    With Ebbert, I'm not so sure, because he's a maester trainee at the Citadel (not sure how much power/influence a maester can hold, probably not much).

    I really hope they have Gwyn lose her totally annoying and foolish "This bloodshed must be stopped" mentality sometime next season. If she goes on and on again like that in the next season, and expects my Asher to bend the knee to Ludd or any of the Whitehills, I might as well get Asher to ram a sword through her in the next chance before killing the Whitehalls who cause trouble.

    RKOLegend1 posted: »

    Pretty much. The only way peace could have possibly been achieved was for Gryff, Harys and Ludd to die. Ebbert and Torrhen as well if they gave the Forresters any issues.

  • Re is what Morgryn did to Mira different than what Mira did to Andros the answer is yes

    Mira does not have control over whether the ironwood contract goes to her. Whether she tries to make a deal with Tyrion or demures and says that such a deal could be dangerous for her family, it is Tyrion who grants the Forresters the ironwood contract and who insists that they meet. Then she finds out that Andros is working to buy an army on behalf of her families' biggest enemies. Mira needs to remove the threat to her family and prevent Andros' ability to gather up that army. Andros (and Lyman) may not have had any personal animosity towards Mira, but they know that their actions will have potentially ruinous effect on Mira's life and yet they still do it out of self interest. Andros was willing to work for a man that was attempting to kill a whole family to control a resource.

    I think of it this way. The assassin hired to kill an innocent person is still considered guilty of murder, even if they are conducting it on behalf of someone else since they carried out the act. Andros was hired to hire people to murder the Forresters. Being the middle man does not absolve Andros.

    Mira's impact on Morgryn would not have been life and death. Mira trying to protect her family from being attacked by an army is morally superior to Morgryn lashing out at someone for costing them a job. Going back to what Mira did or did not do. It was Tyrion who made the decision to grant the Forresters' the ironwood contract. Andros pushed Morgryn out of the ironwood business. How was Mira ultimately responsible for anything that happened to Morgryn? Plus after Mira gets rid of Andros Morgryn could have gotten back into the business and represented, at least, the Whitehills. Instead he wants to eliminate her, because she hurt his pride?, and have a monopoly.

    Mira was not guilty of killing the guard. The guard was trying to kill her. Killing someone who is trying to kill you is self-defense and justified. It is also justifiable to kill someone in order to stop them from killing another person. In both instances it is a matter of self-defense, which is legal.

    Abeille posted: »

    Yeah, it wasn't much different from the Red Wedding. Honestly, if we make a cold, unbiased evaluation, the Forresters are not much better th

  • edited November 2015

    I still get the feeling that Torrhen is nothing like Gryff or Ludd (or at least nowhere near their personality). Heck, his first name is Torrhen for crying out loud..lol\

    I get the feeling Torrhen is like Gwyn. Also, after Gryff and Ludd, not sure if Telltale would make a 3rd Whitehill character like those two, but who knows. Won't find out till next season in all likelihood.

    CoolGuyJ posted: »

    I definitely think Torrhen will be trouble, since he's a ward of Roose Bolton (may or may not be huge trouble, but definitely create some so

  • You've got to wonder what the hell Torrhen's doing while his family's going to war.

    RKOLegend1 posted: »

    I still get the feeling that Torrhen is nothing like Gryff or Ludd (or at least nowhere near their personality). Heck, his first name is Tor

  • Ok

    Lady Forrester forced the House into that path

    I didn't think it was forced since there's no way in hell your mother was letting Ludd walk out of their alive and you to marry into that fo

  • Can someone explain me what happened? Because I have a Rodrik ending in my game.

  • edited November 2015

    Because Roderik is dead, Ludd walks up with his army and says, "We've won by Ramsay Snow's rules" (which is BS because you can kill Ludd and they continue to fight in the Roderik ending) so Ludd proposes the Forresters swear allegiance to House Whitehill and become their bannermen. Also, that Asher will marry Gwyn and this will bring the fighting to an end.

    Asher decides to use this to either poison Ludd or ambush the Whitehills and murder them all, Red Wedding style.

    Gwyn, however, implores Asher to make sincere peace.

    Elisa, if you decide for peace, goes, "The hell with that" as she wants Whitehill blood.

    Can someone explain me what happened? Because I have a Rodrik ending in my game.

  • Well, someone has to watch the castle.

    AgentZ46 posted: »

    You've got to wonder what the hell Torrhen's doing while his family's going to war.

  • edited November 2015

    Well, Gwyn wants to save both House Forrester and House Whitehill with the least number of dead possible. Peace has to start somewhere but assuming you do kill Ludd and Gryff, that's just going to mean their sons/brothers will want to avenge them. Annihilating a whole family is pretty damn hard in Westeros, since they tend to have a lot of relatives ready to avenge them.

  • Another Roderik... -_-

    Because Roderik is dead, Ludd walks up with his army and says, "We've won by Ramsay Snow's rules" (which is BS because you can kill Ludd and

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