Is leaving either brother behind understandable?
If not, which one do you think is understandable? IMO, they are. I'm just asking because I'm sick of the "Rodrik is a stupid fucking cripple, Asher is bae." BS. I mean, I saved Asher but...saving Rodrik is reasonable too, isn't it? ISN'T IT?!
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Well, leaving one of them is understandable, I guess, since otherwise they both die?
But I've always subscribed to the unpopular notion that Rodrik should survive. He is, after all, the lord of the house; while Asher is just another sword who already completed what he set out to do -- bring soldiers. The knight protects the king, the younger brother kneels before the elder, and Asher knows by leaving Rodrik he becomes the lord--something he has no interest in. It just doesn't add up, for me personally. And it seemed a bit weird, Asher starting his quest to save House Forrester by leaving its leader to die.
I saved Asher, but...that was very well said, Dillon. Bravo. claps (I swear to god, I'm not being sarcastic.)
I didn't think you were :P
Anyway, it's hardly a choice you can go wrong with when both characters are so good. The roguish, dragon-fighting badass whose met Daenerys Targaryen; and a survivor of the Twins, who takes no shit from anybody, be it the Whitehills or the Boltons. Asher had finally returned home; Rodrik had finally recovered from his injuries. Asher had Gwyn; Rodrik had Elaena. I can see both sides of it, but as I said, for me personally, there can only be one.
I think Asher's the right one to live.
Rodrik and Asher both protect their family. We hear how Asher knocked out half of Ethan's bully's teeth, and that I believe was the only mention of him protecting his family. However, we see Rodrik defend Talia, either letting Gryff beat him and force him into the mud or by standing up to defend Talia's honour. At Highpoint, Rodrik is more than willing to give Gryff, a full grown, decent warrior for his younger brother, a small boy. Rodrik protects his family, and there is even a path where he says a Forrester is still a Forrester. He was willing to protect his younger siblings, and he'd be willing to protect Asher too. After Ethan's death, I don't think Rodrik would have been willing to let another Forrester die when he could protect them.
Well said
Well, I saved Rodrik because he had unfinished business with the Whitehills. And I love his relationship with Talia.
And I couldn't have his road to recovery end at the hands of Gryff.
And since I ended up killing Ludd, doesn't that mean I technically won the war!?
Anyway, RIP Asher
Technically, but it doesn't matter since the gate gets smashed and crap hits the fan.
I do love Rodrik's line- "You may be right, about all of it!
But I'm still the last lord standing."
Still, that has to factor into Season 2 somehow.
And that's actually the line I used before beheading Ludd.
I feel the same way, I'm tired of people calling others idiots because they didn't choose Asher. Take this from someone who has a VERY hard time deciding between the two.
In the end I chose Rodrik to live. It was somewhat contrary to the characterization I had been playing (man that would do anything for family), but it felt more right, because of one simple reason:
Logically, Asher's storyline was over, and Rodrik's was not.
And I'm not denying there are a ton of reasons to still save Asher. But the entire game until this point had set up two things for their characters to do: Rodrik to prepare for war against the Whitehills, and Asher to find an army. Well, Asher found an army, and therefore his death completes his goals, with the only loose end of his story being no resolution with Gwyn. I also felt it was right as the exiled son for him to redeem himself in the eyes of his house by protecting his brother.
When Rodrik dies there are many loose ends. Elaena just drops out of the story. The war could be lost because the Lord died, but none if that is really settled. There are so many promises and lines Rodrik can say ("I'm going to kill that man", "they couldn't kill me and you won't be the one to finish the job") that serve as foreshadowing to events that could only be resolved if he lives (killing Ludd or Gryff). And he's had to deal with then for so much of the story it feels off to me when he's not there to see them in the end.
So yeah, I mostly chose Rodrik for narrative purposes. I think telltale still did a great job creating a narrative for Asher if he lives, but it just didn't feel right our complete to me without Rodrik. Also I think the cripple excuse is awful, we see Rodrik handle himself just fine without his crutch and most of the game is strategy anyways. He's strong willed too.
Omg marry me?
Okay, maybe not, but still... well said!
I'm so tired of this debate. There are good reasons for both choices, and to this day there are still people who don't know who they want to stick with.
I think we should be more grateful. If GRRM had been writing this episode himself, he probably would have killed both brothers. (And put in an extra scene with Gryff raping Talia just to be a troll.)
Have you got some issue with GRRM? I don't mean to come across as antagonistic but it's a little frustrating that almost every comment/discussion you post is criticising him in some way.
Yeah, you could say that. I think he's a nihilistic little twerp in dire need of prozac (or a diet). I gave the game a chance because I trusted Telltale to filter the nastiest aspects of George's "style," and for the most part, they did.
But let's stop talking about GRRM for a moment, and start talking about you. It's obvious you have some kind of personal issue with me, otherwise you wouldn't be stalking me on this forum the way you've been doing lately. If you have something you need to settle with me, please take it up in a private discussion. I'm not interested in engaging in a flame war.
I have no personal issue with you. I admit I've disagreed with you multiple times but it's nothing personal.
I love how lined up the "A Forrester is a Forrester" line with Asher. I have a new headcanon now.
Which one? The "which brother should I save?" debate or the "Rodrik is a cripple, save Asher instead" debate?
Asher has good reasoning for becoming lord of you choose the right dialogue. He says that if he doesn't become lord, Rodrik's sacrifice and everything they went through in Essos would be for nothing. So it actually adds more depth and characterization to Asher, it's not like this crazy out of character thing like you are making it seem.
Also, it's not a "Asher left Rodrik" thing. If anything Rodrik should feel guilty about leaving his brother who traveled half the known world just to help out. That's selfish. As I've said in other threads I accidentally chose to save Rodrik at first, but was literally yelling that he was a coward while he was leaving Asher behind
Say what you will but Asher becoming lord felt 110% spot on in terms of what I was expecting from the finale. It has a final scene in the greathall, it has Ludd finally being frightened of the Forresters, and it just makes so much sense from a narrative perspective. Rodrik's story is equally captivating but more of the same. Rodrik had fulfilled his purpose of giving Ironrath a lord until Asher returned, and it is sort of fitting thatbthe true heir dies and the house is destroyed shortly thereafter. Plus, its a little bit silly if Rodrik keeps getting mortally wounded and surviving. I truly think that Rodrik is built up to be a broken leader and that passing the torch to Asher is the Canon choice buy everyone has their own interpretation of the story.
I wasn't going to reply to this, as I thought it was best to let this discussion die. However, there's barely any threads at the moment, and I can't resist, so...
Yes, he can accept the fact he is to become the lord, if you choose that one, specific option. However, Asher, canonically, does not want the position, nor has he ever.
"Crazy out of character" is a bit extreme, but I definitely find issue with the fact a person who doesn't want to be in power, would allow himself to take on huge amounts of power when it could be avoided. (E.g. by choosing to stay behind). But I agree it adds depth and characterisation--his entire role in The Ice Dragon.
Hardly. Rodrik never asked for Asher to come back -- it was Lady Forrester, with or without the consent of Ethan. He had nothing to do with it. He was far too busy dealing with the iron-fisted oppression of living beneath the Whitehills, while, you know, grievously crippled, and dealing with the Boltons and a traitor. Asher's one job was to bring back an army--and all he brought was a handful of Pit Fighters. Which is admirable, however were they worth the Lord's life? Because, let's face it, for 62% of people, or whatever it now is, that was their price.
Personally, I think that's mental. One of them has to flee--so calling either of them a coward for it is rather absurd. I would never call Asher a "coward" for leaving Rodrik, for example.
Well, good for you. And I mean that honestly. I disagree 110% with it, but I see your point. Although, I would deign to add, while Ludd is frightened of Asher, Gryff is not. Just like how Gryff is frightened of Rodrik, but Ludd is not. So that sense can be disputed.
I guess it all depends on your interpretation of Rodrik's role in the story. I never saw his role as being a delaying-action for Asher; you know, just keeping the chair warm until he arrived. I find the notion quite despairing, if anything. And it completely desolates all the foreshadowing--Rodrik telling Ludd he was going to kill him, Rodrik's dark glare into the pyre during Talia's song, Rodrik's words when he stands up to Gryff, Rodrik's non-determinant response when Gryff tells him: "You're dead, Rodrik! and Rodrik smiles. "I doubt that."
Even Ramsay's own appraisal of him further cements this perception: "A man who cannot be broken."
Perhaps, but I don't see it as being any sillier than Malcolm teleporting from Ironrath to the Yunkai tavern in which Asher was in, or Mira getting executed without a trial, even when she didn't kill a guard--or even take his knife. At least this circumstance has a certain poetry to it. Rodrik is constantly portrayed and referenced to be an unbreakable, unkillable force of nature. If anything, his survival just lends more weight to the foreshadowing that's made throughout the entire series.
Exactly. And I don't mean to fault you for yours, as I'm sure you don't mean to fault me for mine. I could keep going on here, but I think this argument has been done to death; so I won't.
Yep, the argument has been discussed to death and then resurrected and discussed to death again, lol. I think it ultimately just boils down to how the player personally played each brother, each one is more than capable so it is up to your own perception of the games events. Anyways thanks for replying lol that was a very thought out response but it's fun to be able to disagree contructively.
I know :P and I'm sure we haven't even seen the last of it yet!
But I do agree. I think when it comes down that choice--everyone has a slightly different version of Asher and Rodrik Forrester. And they use those versions to determine their decision, which I guess both of us will have to make our uneasy peace with. The only reason I get so butthurt and defensive over it all -- is the countless times I watch someone play Rodrik as kissing the ring, submitting to Gryff, refusing to stab Ramsay, and then leaving him because he was "weak."
Those people are the devil.
Anyway, I agree, if nothing else, these discussions are always interesting; from both sides. So I thank you for your response in the first place.
I'm tired of people saying stuff like what you just said and stuff similar stuff about Asher from Rodrik fans. Plus the which brother is better argument. There are good reasons for both choices.
Can you honestly tell me if this has ever happened to you? Unless you're talking about steam, because in this forums I've never seen such thing. On the other hand, I'm tired of people who chose Rodrik demonizing people who chose Asher.
Haha yeah, I'm sort of one of those people. I made Rodrik act with decision when it came to.major choices like standing up to Gryff and maiming him but MY Rodrik often faltered when it came to minor choices. Again though, it was my own perception that made thisnchoice and not a strict rule that the game made me adhere to.
I really appreciate the discussion though, I prefer not to try to prove people wrong but instead just offer my own interpretation of events. It becomes childish when one party just wants to prove the other wrong, especially when the dilemma at hand is largely an opinion and determined by the previous 4 episodes.
Long story short, I love this community and the people within it! We all need to be civil and empathetic. I COULD counter every point you made but it is unnecessary, since we are all friends here with their own perspective. It's just nice having a forum to provide alternative viewpoints, and the likes you've received show how many people truly believe what you had to say about Roddy. Anyways I'm done gushing, you guys are awesome and I love this community.
I don't know why you're being so antagonistic, I never demonized people who chose Asher. I even said I had a hard time choosing between the two?
It's not that it's happened to me (which I never said it did) it's that that's the general feeling I get from the forums and I would be surprised if you honestly never saw that happening. I know I saw plenty of threads getting created that detailed why choosing Rodrik is a stupid choice and that Rodrik is a cripple and therefore useless to the story. My problem is with those particular people, not people who chose Asher in general.
To me it sounded like it. You said that people have been calling others idiots because they didn't chose Asher and even if you are referring to some particular cases you surely know that those 'cases' exist in both side, yet you only mentioned Asher. But ok, I obviously misinterpreted what you said.
Well, I honestly never saw such thing, and I come to this forums pretty regularly. Although I remember a thread saying that 'people who chose Asher for reason X are stupid' (or something alike that) and in that thread one of the reasons why I chose Asher was being demonized (not wanting to separate him from Beskha).
I'm sorry, I just never saw anyone insulting anyone over this topic and the fact that you mentioned that people who chose Asher do it made me feel a bit insulted.
Maybe it's a case of selective listening for both of us, but I'm sure there have been many more threads that are against Rodrik than Asher. I'm not denying there isn't hostility on both sides but I've seen it much more on the Asher side on the forum, especially soon after the episode released. I've browsed the forums a while too. This is just what I've observed from fans, it doesn't have to do with the actual reasons to choose Asher over Rodrik.
This shouldn't be an insult to anyone except for those who call those who save Rodrik idiots or are overall hostile.
As someone who is an Asher fan, I 100% agree with you. Especially the part where you mentioned the cripple excuse.
In my first play through (on PS4) I saved Asher because I wanted to see a character actually have a story line where the reach Westeros in a ASOI/GOT world.But in my 2nd playt hrough (pC) just to see the other side and how Besaka would reaction
I'm sick of everyone conisdering saving Asher is the right thing.
I'm sick of people saying saving Asher is the wrong thing.
When did I say saving Asher is wrong? I'm saying that there IS NO RIGHT CHOICE. This is what Telltale Games are. You make your story. Am I an asshole because I let Asher to die? It's just annoying that Asher's fanbase forces people to let Rodrik die. I like Rodrik more than Asher because he is the strongest.
I still dont get this argument that the books is just constant death and misery for the "good" characters. Its a book about war, its not going to be a fun time for anyone. The "bad" characters get just as much crap.
I guess I misinterpreted. I thought you were saying saving Asher was wrong. But there are plently of Rodrik fans that say saving Asher is wrolng as well.
Am I blind or am I the only one who hasn't seen this?
Apart from one or two special cases on both sides no one has been saying that saving each brother is wrong...
Jesus Christ, all I did was ask if saving either brother is reasonable, and everyone's pitching a fit.
People have done it. I imagine out of frustration towards fans who prefer Asher. It's not as common sure but it's really frustrating and annoying for me.
Have you noticed that you rant when you make a discussion and people don't say exactly what you want them to say?
Yeah, that's true. But the reason I closed that other thread was because there were too many troll edits (Assoldier and Ashmo), and I wasn't being reasonable. So I closed the thread so there wouldn't be any more arguing. But now I see there's more. Can we be neutral now?
I just don't want people starting another civil war on these forums, that's all. There's already one right now.