Harvey or Penguin?
Title says it all. Which beginning do you think was better done? The beginning with Harvey's if you go to Wayne Tower first or the one with Penguin if you go to Wayne Manor first?
Imo I believe that Harvey's was more well-done and way more emotional. We finally got that sympathetic side of him that Episode 4 was severely lacking in. We saw him trying to fight his other personality and we see how much of an influence Bruce's friendship has on him. How much it means to him. He was the only one who could snap Harvey out of his Two Face persona. We also see that he's not fully in control of his actions and is basically sharing his body with a bloodthirsty madman. He's so broken to the point where he doesn't even know if he should kill himself without flipping a coin first. All Harvey wanted to do was save Gotham, but because of the Children of Arkham's drug, he became the very thing he wanted to purge from Gotham. It's quite a tragedy really.
Comments
Yeah...Harvey Dent by so many miles, that scenario seemed to have the most effort put into it regarding how Grogan is killed, the hostage situation, the flashback, and how that story ended.
Oswald's scenario just has shoddy writing all over it given how it makes Oswald look like a complete moron as well as the flashback feeling like an afterthought.
Very true. I even found out that you can fail to save Harvey in that scene and he permanently stays Two Face so there are consequences to our dialogue choices which I love.
I agree, with Penguin that flashback didn't hold any meaning to me since from Episode 1 Penguin was always out to get us and never showed any sympathy to Bruce even though he wasn't even responsible since he was just a kid when that happened. However with Harvey in Episode 1 he was just someone who wanted to be a good mayor to Gotham and a good friend to Bruce. And in the end he believes he failed at both. That flashback just made the scene that much more powerful.
Yeah, like J Master said, The Harvey Dent intro was much better and had a more satisfying conclusion.
Harvey's intro was a lot more emotional and interesting for me. I was kinda disappointed with how Os was handled in the later episodes. He was a really cool character, but the decisions/dialog choices really didn't impact him at all. He hates your guts, regardless of if you try to act friendly with him or not. Was hoping I'd be able to get him to realize that Bruce isn't his enemy, but oh well. Was happy that I was able to reach what's left of Harvey's good side, at least!
Harvey definitely. I felt heartbroken for Harvey but for Penguin I just wanted to take him down.
I liked Harvey's a lot more than Penguin's.
Penguin's doesn't have as much emotional impact, and there's not much variation to it. I can't help but feel like it was a bit rushed, honestly.
Harvey's, on the other hand, had a lot of variation and was arguably one of the most emotional scenes in the game.
The lives of the hostages rest on what you choose to say, as well as the winner of Harvey's mental war. It creates so much tension. Tension that Oz's scene just doesn't have, in my opinion.
I really like how many times that you can fail Harvey. With either letting half of his face being burned off, going to the manor first and burning half of his body, and not being able to reach him through dialogue choices if you don't encourage Harvey to do the right thing in the end and him permanently becoming Two Face.
It's almost like Bruce is fighting against the very fabrics of fate trying to prevent Harvey from becoming Two Face. Harvey is a tragic character who's destined to fall at every path he takes, but depending on the player, Bruce can either be there at every turn to try and guide him down the right path and show him the light, potentially saving him at the end. Or let the darkness consume him and allow Harvey to become who he is destined to be. It's quite poetic really. I've never really felt like my choices mattered more to a character than with Harvey.
I've just watched a quick video that includes dealing with Harvey, though he was Two-Face in that version. Either way, I'd put the stand-off with Harvey leagues above the one with Oz.
In the Oz sequence, I did begin to feel some emotional pull, but no question, the Harvey section far surpassed the Oz one by emotional merits alone. The flashback was okay, but it should've delved a little deeper. It was Oz beginning to spill about his father's suicide that, in combination with the flashback, gave the scene it's heart. Still, it can in no way compare to the emotional hell I just witnessed in the Harvey section.
The tension with each hostage was just unbelievable. I want to research the various nuances, because Harvey has just been an extremely malleable character, though tragedy seems to follow him through every choice. This scene really had that humanizing struggle that I wanted to see portrayed in Guardian of Gotham. Don't even get me started on the damn coin sequence!
I felt like I didn't receive the chance to communicate to Oz the way I wanted to through our last words, and I found it a little silly that he was still unaware of who Batman truly was, but it was an okay scene, overall. I'm really upset that I didn't see any Harvey in this episode, but I will probably replay to do so, and like I said, view my personal nuances. Him not being there was my fault, so I shouldn't have a problem, I guess. Even that short cameo I already saw in the trailer phased me. He is just such a tragic character. I'm just so overcome by everything I've witnessed. Sheesh! I just finished a few minutes ago, so please try to pardon illegibility.
EDIT: I'd like to elaborate a little more than I did yesterday. I really appreciate how Telltale handled Harvey. Even in redemption, he retained that layer of tragedy, which felt extremely fitting, albeit heart-breaking. His relationship with Bruce, and the various ways Bruce can choose to interact with him, not just in this scene, but in the entirety of the game, have proved so poignant. The way his struggling was made evident in this scene, and the way he was shown as so beaten down to the point where chance would decide his fate and the lives of others, was just something so intense to view. Harvey was the highlight of this game for me.
Yeah I agree with everyone else Harvey had the more gut-wrenching scene that they were actually building up to compared to Penguin. Too bad it's determinant tho.
I just wanted to chime in by saying that you articulated your thoughts beautifully here. Oh, how I despise these moments. My heart is aching to like this comment thirty times, but the stars will not allow it. Seriously, very, very well said.
Felt so sorry for Harvey...not so much for Oz...maybe if Oz had not been such an ass. Did feel really bad for Vicki....so I think they needed to punch up Oz's character a little...but maybe the writers felt that Oz is a total shitbird and this is why he is what he is.
yeah i know right? I was thinking about this but didnt know how to put it into words, but he did a really good job here
Definitely Harvey. Oswald didn't have the same emotional impact, although that flashback was still sad.
I regret that I didn't managed to save Harvey from Two-Face in my original playthough and I was surprised that there was two resolution to his intro. One where he is Two-Face, another where he is Harvey. The fact that you can succeed in getting Harvey back, even temporally or briefly, is as closest to redemption for this tragic character as you can get in this story.
Harvey is definitely the best villain of the Rogue Galley in this game. He has so much more depth to his character and the personal friendship that you as a player establish with him really makes you feel for his character and motivate you to save him.
i saved wayne manor in episode 4 so I was pissed I got the penguin intro
Harvey was definitely the one that has earned the most sympathy, and it's the reason why I want to redeem him. Everything about it was just so perfect, and it forces you to try and reach out to him. Bringing the old Harvey back from his Two-Face persona. Even tough his intentions are good he really doesn't know what he's doing, and that partly shows the complex nature of politics. No matter what your intentions are you are bound to make a mistake that will haunt you, and the games shows it perfectly, and the purpose the coin that played into Two-Face's character. The coin is the persona of Two-Face because justice and law are in a way a two-face side. There are positives and negatives when it comes to law and justice. You don't really know what the outcome is. Which is why the coin played a role for the existence of Two-Face. Harvey doesn't know what he's really doing, and which is why he kept that coin with him because he relies on it to make the choice for him. This is were his arc stands out more as you need to try and save the hostages with your dialogues, and the right one could determine Harvey's fate. Which is why when I put away the coin away you see Two-Face no longer in control and Harvey freed from him as he breaks down in tears. This is were Two-Face is no longer in control, but Harvey will still carry all the things that has been done.
So yeah, Harvey was the one character I wanted to redeem. I was so desperate to prevent him from becoming Two-Face because he's really a good man that wants to do the right thing, but he is forced to do horrible things from a persona he never asked for. I've seen his origin from the comics and all the other media he's in and all of his versions still kept him as Two-Face regardless. Every version of Harvey I've seen have him fated as Two-Face no matter what, and this is precisely why it was important for me because this was the fate I want to prevent Harvey from becoming, and in a way I did succeed in redeeming him and I was very happy with it because I've finally prevented Harvey from becoming Two-Face. And he is literally the first version from DC that has him not being Two-Face, and it's not Batman that prevented his fate but Bruce Wayne. The only friend he's ever had to bring him back. So thank you Telltale for making my choice matter. What I do wonder now is what his future will be. This is something that needs to be brought up in season 2 because I want to give him a second chance in his life, but after everything that has been going on in all of these episodes this was worth it and it made me proud of the decisions I've made. We've prevented Harvey's fate and he'll have his second chance in life
Oz I do not care one bit. He's pretty much fated to be an enemy regardless, and it's the reason why he has a crappy arc. You try to be good to him, but he's just a piece of shit at the end
Vicki was perhaps the best original villain Telltale has produced. I tried to reach out to help when I reveal myself to her as Bruce Wayne, and briefly I did as she's shown to struggle while in disbelief, but she just wouldn't believe that Bruce would be a good guy because he's just another Wayne. Always comparing him to his father without actually knowing him as a person. Sucks she dies, but I have to say my heart beats in that boss battle because its two fractured people. One that wants redemption for his name and one that wants revenge because of it. That boss fight felt personal to me because as much as Vicki proved to be an enemy I don't really hate her because I understood her. She has a very harsh life with her parents dead and being raised by awful people. Her reasons are clear, but she still judges people without clearly thinking things straight. I still would like to see her come back from the dead. Maybe involve the Court of Owls into this.
Need these kinds of villains for possible redemption
Honestly, I vastly preferred Oswald's intro, since I found his flashback and backstory to be far more gut-wrenching than Harvey's, since they were childhood friends, while Harvey and Bruce weren't. I felt that Oswald's mother being committed to Arkham and his father committing suicide was far more heartbreaking than Harvey's mental breakdown.
This is so beautiful and I love the thought of Bruce fighting fate itself to save his friend Harvey. He's not even just fighting Harvey's darker half for his soul but he's fighting fate as well. Harvey still thinks Bruce should have let him die so Bruce will have to believe hard enough for the both of them. Nothing can be done until Harvey believes, too, and can fight but Bruce can carry the weight for now. Harvey begged Bruce not to leave him alone with his demons and it took awhile but Bruce isn't going to let him down again.
It's funny. The "Saving the Manor" ending feels like the more fitting and stronger ending while the "vs. Harvey" is a more involved and better beginning for episode 5.
I guess that just shows the strength of the writing for Telltale Harvey/Two-Face.
I preferred Harvey and the desperate attempt to save him. I loved how if you play it right and always choose to try and reach him Harvey never once points the gun at you until you take the coin but even then we both knew it was an empty threat. He couldn't decide to shoot himself when it was what he wanted to do without the coin but I'm supposed to think he'd shoot Bruce? I wish I could have gotten the line from Two-Face about how Harvey was a fool to have trusted Bruce when I reach out to Harvey instead because it's so heartbreaking and I feel Two-Face thinks that anyway but I guess it's a good sign I didn't. Harvey insists he can't make any choices without the coin but he chooses to let three hostages in a row go just because Bruce kept telling him that he was better than this. He couldn't try to kill Bruce personally. He burned the manor when Bruce was gone and he had his people try to take out Bruce instead of doing it personally (whatever that bizarre cowardice line was about his having not died). Two-Face kept talking about "Wayne" and Harvey was talking about Bruce. I hated that Harvey said they were once good friends and asked to be remembered as he was but that's easy and clean and kind of what the Nolan movies did. We can't remember Harvey the way he once was because that's an ideal this Harvey can't reach or at least not for a very long time. There's blood on his hands now and trying to force this sick one to be the man he was even a month ago isn't going to help anyone. We have to face what's going on now.
I'm curious why Harvey called Bruce (well, indirectly. He had a hostage report to the police to put the call in to Bruce I guess. Would Gordon have told him if Batman hadn't been there?) What did he think was going to happen? He's threatening everyone and just arguing with Bruce. It's clearly still personal and Bruce doesn't even have to try that hard at this point to break through to Harvey when nothing else will. They have this powerful history and connection and Bruce just has to stand there hitting him over the head with belief and it's like Harvey's waking up from a dream. What was his intended outcome? Why did he bring Bruce there under the penalty of killing the hostages? Part of me thinks it was a subconscious cry for help. Right then Bruce is the only one who can help him even if Harvey can't quite believe it. He says he's glad Bruce is there right before trying to end it all.
It's just so beautiful and so painful and Bruce isn't even mad, really. He'll insist to Gordon, standing next to his boss' body in the ruins of the police station, that it's just that Harvey is sick. Alfred thinks he's lost hope in people and not everyone is like Oz and Thomas but this wasn't Harvey's fault. Bruce will give him the best doctors and Harvey believes him but he doesn't see that there's a way out. And, frankly, even beyond the mental issues with what Harvey's done...legally I don't see how he can be held accountable but rebuilding his life will be hell and he cant' escape the consequences. He doesn't believe that anyone can defeat Two-Face and he doesn't see that together he and Bruce just did. But he will. Bruce will be persistent.
Compared to all of that of course Oz is going to be a bit of a let-down but I managed to find some real empathy for him. I keep thinking back to the scene at the park. What was his game? Why'd he warn him? He wasn't even trying by episode three (though he might have been setting up for the drug) and he really seemed pleased or disappointed by Bruce's character. Something must have changed, maybe the video. Maybe Vicki didn't tell him who the number one target was until she was ready to turn him against the Waynes given their childhood friendship and residual affection. Bruce beating up the bullies and trying to comfort and protect Oz after what happened and then you know just who orchestrated this tragedy in the first place.
And Oz is clearly doing some bad things and he is in his right mind and making his own choices but he still can't see clearly. It defies belief at this point he's been to Lucius' lab and hacked into at least some files and still doesn't understand about Batman. I saw someone say that Bruce could unmask like he did in front of Vicki and Oz would just think it's a nice cosplay. I think he'd think it was a crappy cosplay because of his Bruce thing but headcanon accepted. He can't face it. Vicki thinks it's suspicious how much Batman cares about Alfred and the fact they talk as though they know each other even if she doesn't realize it's Bruce. Oz doesn't understand where Batman is and wonders if they're working together. He just can't get that far.
He accuses you of looking down from on high at the poor beggar even if you did nothing but commiserate and apologize for his misfortune that time in the park. He could see it then but not now and that kind of breaks my heart. This is his worldview and nothing is going to shake it. He just can't see what's right in front of him. Had he come to Bruce and told him the truth Bruce would have tries to make reparations and to help him. He might've even gotten him that damn island. But he went a different way. I don't know how genuinely Bruce telling Oswald he was right about everything being his and his family's fault (because Bruce does have a habit of blaming himself for everything but another option at that point is saying Oz's mom deserved Arkham and Bruce knows that isn't true). Oz was so surprised and almost pleased but he still couldn't turn away. He still had to take that vengeance. Then after everything Oz has ever done to Bruce, Bruce simply distracts him and Oz breaks his leg and he's acting like he's been the victim of, well, everything everyone all game has been doing to Bruce.
I'd like to think Bruce goes to see him in prison and they mostly just yell at each other and revert to being rather juvenile but eventually they can come to some sort of peace. Might not stop Oz from hating the Waynes and being a criminal but there's just too much rawness between them now and it's hard to let a thing like that sit and fester.
Thats a wall of text if ive ever seen one.
Wall of texts don't have paragraph breaks and that's why they're annoying and hard to read. I just had a lot to say. With multiple paragraphs.
Im not saying thats a bad thing. Its good you have alot to say about the topic