I think he says something about how he can't understand how Elaine could sit on them for long.
Anyway, it's a game. And it's not like this is an integral part of the story or like it would have to make any sense in order for you to solve the puzzle.
The coals are a bit of the statue: you can see a broken off, glowing edge when it falls over.
Totally agree. I think sometimes people here get a bit caught up in worshipping telltale for resurrecting adventure games that, in their eyes, telltale can do no wrong.
There is no decent logic to explain the coals. It is just lazy story telling, or a temporary lack of creativity on the part of the story writters and game designers. That's all. End of story.
Having the coals randomly appear might be lazy or a lack of creativity, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's a major problem. It's one isolated incident.
Sometimes people may needlessly get caught up in the "prasing TellTale bandwagon", but some people also needlessly get caught up in the "let's tear TellTale apart over some minor flaw bandwagon." Not saying you are, but some people carry on and on about how annoying this one little thing is.
Guybrush's exact words are "Ouch, hot! How did Elaine not burn herself on these?"
Nowhere does he imply or comment on the fact that they're hers. He's commenting on the fact that she was sitting on them while trapped under the statue.
Interestingly, you can indeed see glowy bits in the broken bits of statue. Why the statue is made out of coal, I have no idea. Like I said: it's not a big deal, but it made me raise an eyebrow. Had there been some sort of wooden shack blown to smithereens, this would've been a lot smoother.
Not saying you are, but some people carry on and on about how annoying this one little thing is.
Honestly, does anyone know the exact material used by merfolk for their statues? Do you know what they put inside their statues? I thought so.
Think about it this way, did the game designers think about what the merfolk used to make the statue? You're just making up possible excuses for them.
I think the main problem was "What were the developers thinking with the magically appearing coals?". And after playing through that part again, the answer seems to be that it is indeed parts of that mer-statue's face. How it is equivalent to coal is the lazy/un-creative/rushed bit.
BUt you are all right, a bit too much emphasis on a minor problem which doesn't really make or break the game, nor is it a major part in the plot.
To me, it is just another small irritating thing, and they accumulate and together they may draw back from the game but so far they haven't.
Terrific game overall, well done TellTale. End of sory.
He cares enough to valiantly defend the issue in whatever way possible when both I and NabaDwA (and possibly others) alread said repeatedly that it's just a minor thing that we experienced as weird.
Honestly, does anyone know the exact material used by merfolk for their statues? Do you know what they put inside their statues? I thought so.
Interesting. Next time, let's just put have a monkey wrench, a length of rope and a rubber chicken with a pulley in the moddle appear. After all, who knows the exact material used by merfolk for their statues?
It amazes me how people will jump through any possible hoop in order to quell everything that isn't the highest praise for telltale and their games.
He cares enough to valiantly defend the issue in whatever way possible when both I and NabaDwA (and possibly others) alread said repeatedly that it's just a minor thing that we experienced as weird.
OK, he left out the sarcasm tags, but I think it's pretty obvious that you shouldn't take it as an explanation, but as a sarcastic comment indicating that no explanation is needed.
I demand realism in my pirate game with ghosts/zombies/demons, and merfolk!
How dare Elaine have coals in her inventory which fell out when she fell over! How dare Telltale not point a big shiny sign towards the bucket when I went up there previously so that I didn't miss it!
I demand a refund and a full apology! Worst game ever!
You know, it could be that Elaine took the coals while under the influence of the pox (which also gave her protection from the heat) and was planning on using them to cook the mer-leader alive! :O
You know, it could be that Elaine took the coals while under the influence of the pox (which also gave her protection from the heat) and was planning on using them to cook the mer-leader alive! :O
or she was stealing them because she was mad at the merleader and wanted him? her? to die which is achieved by taking them so the temperature would be too low in the tub muahahahahahaha
You know, it could be that Elaine took the coals while under the influence of the pox (which also gave her protection from the heat) and was planning on using them to cook the mer-leader alive! :O
Well, it's very obv something is up with Elaine being able to sit on burning coal. TTG obv wanted to point it out because they think through their stuff. It's not random. We will get an explanation to why she could sit at burning coal.
If there is one thing I hate about ToMi, it's the "puzzle" with the bucket and the coals. I don't like the fact that an object magically appears in a location you've been to a few times. I couldn't find anything to pick up the coals and then suddenly a theres a bucket? Why does telltale do it this way? In previous MI games all objects where there already. Doesn't matter if you only need it later on in the game. In ToMi objects appear just when you need them.
So when I get stuck, I need to visit ALL locations again just to see if an object appeared ouf of nowhere? That is ridiculous.
Even though the bucket was there at the beginning, I found the fact that it was there and you could just walk right up and take it in front of the mermaid really lame and lazy. You just talk to her a bit and she lets you have it. That alone might not be bad (after all the same thing pretty much happens in MI2. oh wait that deserves criticism for repeating!), but it just underscored how bad the puzzle design and story telling was. Why was that bucket there? Why could you just take it? Why did it have holes?
The game doesn't set out very interesting problems for you to solve, but the way previous MI games would have you solve them would be MUCH more clever and satisfying.
I had high hopes for this episode being a major improvement, and it was even worse.
Look guys, it's obvious where the coals came from.
If you click the ocean by the docks eleventy million times, a secret cutscene plays showing the founding of Spinning Cay a hundred years ago by the ancestor of the Vaycaylians - Kermatzefrog. As his first act of government, he declares war on the United States of America, and President Max decides to launch a missile on Spinner Cay, which destroys their container of rubber-chickens-with-pulleys-in-the-middle that was just delivered by the starfish that now lives on Isle of Ewe beach. The container explodes and the ashes scatter. But the power of a nuclear missile+rubber chickens collapses the universe and caused a time-space vortex that randomly spits out coals every so often.
Look guys, it's obvious where the coals came from.
If you click the ocean by the docks eleventy million times, a secret cutscene plays showing the founding of Spinning Cay a hundred years ago by the ancestor of the Vaycaylians - Kermatzefrog. As his first act of government, he declares war on the United States of America, and President Max decides to launch a missile on Spinner Cay, which destroys their container of rubber-chickens-with-pulleys-in-the-middle that was just delivered by the starfish that now lives on Isle of Ewe beach. The container explodes and the ashes scatter. But the power of a nuclear missile+rubber chickens collapses the universe and caused a time-space vortex that randomly spits out coals every so often.
Guybrush carried arround a bit of ember in MI3 so why shouldn't Elaine be able to carry burning coal? Of course the coal would be a lot hotter but still. Or maybe she had a bucket too and they fell out of it. You've always been able to carry the most bizarre objects in your pockets in MI. Dogs, monkeys, banana pickers... Giant blocks of tofu.:D I don't see a problem with it. As for the fish, it made pretty good sense to me that I'd get it from the ancient fishing well.
Man, this is just as bad as the sound quality issue. What is going on a Telltale? Are they just meth addicts sitting around a bunch of computers pushing random buttons? How about a little quality control guys? This makes me so mad I'm literally smashing the keys as I'm typing this, AAAAAHHHHH!!! I think the community needs to start another petition to fix this puzzle. IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE! It worked the last time guys we can do it again. I hope and pray whoever just lazily put the coals there dies a horrible painful death for what they did, hopefully involving coals, like a house fire or something. This time they have gone too far.
I hope and pray whoever just lazily put the coals there dies a horrible painful death for what they did, hopefully involving coals, like a house fire or something. This time they have gone too far.
I hope you're being sarcastic or something because there's no call for that kind of comment.
Oh, yes. Remove 2 items from the game and part of the puzzle. That what we need.
/sarcasm
Come on, guys. It's just a bucket and some coals. Get over it.
I like you. I also like the fact that your name is a word for Vagina where I'm from. Well done, Spadge.
Even though the bucket was there at the beginning, I found the fact that it was there and you could just walk right up and take it in front of the mermaid really lame and lazy. You just talk to her a bit and she lets you have it. That alone might not be bad (after all the same thing pretty much happens in MI2. oh wait that deserves criticism for repeating!), but it just underscored how bad the puzzle design and story telling was. Why was that bucket there? Why could you just take it? Why did it have holes?
The game doesn't set out very interesting problems for you to solve, but the way previous MI games would have you solve them would be MUCH more clever and satisfying.
I had high hopes for this episode being a major improvement, and it was even worse.
The bucket had the holes to let you know it will not be used to get water.
The bucket didn't actually have holes. Guybrush just starts singing the song, "There's a hole in the bucket" for the heck of it when you look at it. After he starts singing that song, he says, "Nah, not really."
The bucket didn't actually have holes. Guybrush just starts singing the song, "There's a hole in the bucket" for the heck of it when you look at it. After he starts singing that song, he says, "Nah, not really."
Yes it does. Try to scoop water from the ocean with it and Guybrush will comment that the bucket won't hold a liquid.
Aren't people focusing a bit too much on the word 'coals'? Sure, they are described as hot coals as that's a familiar way to describe small glowing hot objects, but it's fairly obvious they're just hot statue bits created by the cannon blast. Who cares if they're actually made of coal or not?
Would it fix the problem for you if they were described as 'Hot debris'? If so, then you're quibbling over a word.
Aren't people focusing a bit too much on the word 'coals'? Sure, they are described as hot coals as that's a familiar way to describe small glowing hot objects, but it's fairly obvious they're just hot statue bits created by the cannon blast. Who cares if they're actually made of coal or not?
Would it fix the problem for you if they were described as 'Hot debris'? If so, then you're quibbling over a word.
Hot statue debris WOULD NOT flame in such a manner as would be needed in a BBQ.
The issue is that it makes no sense. If the object was "Red-Hot piece of Totem" and it was eventually incinerated in the oven, it would make sense. Nobody would be complaining.
The fact that it is red hot coals, and three of them on the ground directly under Elaine with no explanation whatsoever, and the absolute LAMENESS of the puzzle it is associated with, makes people complain. And so they SHOULD. Stop accepting mediocrity.
Apologies, but there's going to be a lot of philosophising about puzzle design in this post. You may consider this meta-spoilery - if I'm right about the approach Telltale have to designing puzzles, this could enable you to spot hints in their design to make things easier to solve.
There's two distinct issues being discussed here:
1. Whether the puzzle is fair, in pure puzzle design terms (noticing the objects involved)
2. Whether the hot coals make sense in the environment of the game.
As regards point 1, that seems entirely reasonable. It's been established that the bucket (which is the object the OP was specifically stating they had difficulty tracking down) is present from the beginning of the game; it's reasonable for a graphic adventure designer to expect the player to collect everything in sight in each location from the very beginning, so it's reasonable to expect the player to already have the item at that point.
As an aside, 'everything in sight' is important; hard-to-see items or obscurely hidden items can cause problems - that's one reason I find many Room Escape-style Flash games to be unreasonable. The bucket, however, is entirely visible.
Some people suggested that there was a similar such problem with the Hot Coals. This time, there's a key difference; the location changes to make the hot coals appear. This can be dangerous to design, because it can make it easy for a player to miss the changes and not be aware that they need to poke around that area. Telltale solve this by *forcing* you to go over there to move on; they make you go over there and have the scene with Elaine.
In short: From a game design standpoint, you freeing Elaine was nothing to do with you freeing Elaine - you'll notice it's not actually a puzzle, just go there and do it - and everything to do with making you go over there, look at the wrecked scene and encourage you to notice the hot coals.
Of course, all this is making a big assumption that I'm right. Telltale may have a whole different philosophy and it just happens to coincidentally match mine in this instance.
Point 2 is a whole different thing - and let me stress, it has *nothing* to do with the puzzle design, and is solely an issue with the nature of the game world. There's an extremely good essay which - in part - covers this subject. It was written about text adventures but it applies very well to this setup as well; it's entitled "Crimes Against Mimesis" - Google should help you out if you want further information.
Just for the record, my memory of this puzzle - which may well be incorrect - is that there was an incense burner or lantern or something in the area which was destroyed by the attack. If that's the case, then that's definitely a valid reason for the coals existing. If not, though, we must assume that they're either debris from the statue (which aren't logically 'coals', but it's not necessarily unreasonable to just treat them as 'hot rocks', their ultimate usage pretty much bears that out) or were carried by Elaine. If that latter interpretation is the intentional one, then I'd suggest that that probably needs some explanation at some point. But then, no-one asks just why LeChuck is carrying around some Breath Mints. He's a character in an adventure game. It's what they do.
Hot statue debris WOULD NOT flame in such a manner as would be needed in a BBQ.
The issue is that it makes no sense. If the object was "Red-Hot piece of Totem" and it was eventually incinerated in the oven, it would make sense. Nobody would be complaining.
The fact that it is red hot coals, and three of them on the ground directly under Elaine with no explanation whatsoever, and the absolute LAMENESS of the puzzle it is associated with, makes people complain. And so they SHOULD. Stop accepting mediocrity.
Exactly. And then the fact that there just so happens to be a big BBQ in the middle of the jungle, exactly where you need it, that might as well have a big red arrow with
"PUT HOT COALS IN HERE. THEN PUT THE HOT TUB CONTROL HERE"
. Just a weak ass puzzle, absolutely no thought is require, and it has no integration with the story or environment.
Ah good, so you think there may or may not have possibly been a lantern or something around.
Clearly TellTale has done their job.
It's a scene I saw once, briefly, a couple of weeks ago. I could well be wrong. Either way, that's only relevant to point 2, not point 1, and point 1 is the specific *gameplay* issue. Point 2 is an aesthetic one, not irrelevant, but not an issue with the *puzzle*.
Many complain about the BBQ puzzle (and i agree) but i think i haven't seen any post regarding the clamshell and the pearl one. I mean, the BBQ puzzle was like god puzzle compared to that one.
i think the coal thingie was pretty badly written, but i think the main problem with this episode was that overall the puzzels were not very good...
like how 3 of the puzzels were solved by claiming cuopns and a 4th was used to strongly suggest what one of them were used for... also that the cuopons were placed right were you needed them,.. straight at the fishing well and the other one right next to lechuc when he was missing a pearl...
i feel that the whole coal issue is compleately shading over all the other bad puzzels... as i said earlier, if episode one was like episode two, you wouldnt make the dark ninja dave, you would just pick up a coupon and claim your ninja dave somewhere....
all in all, im hoping for better puzzels in episode 3...
Many complain about the BBQ puzzle (and i agree) but i think i haven't seen any post regarding the clamshell and the pearl one. I mean, the BBQ puzzle was like god puzzle compared to that one.
yeah i'm just thinking of it as an example of the problems that were with most of the puzzles
Iron Monkey and Santino make good points. I hadn't really thought of just how many bad puzzles were in this chapter. The coals thing just burned me I guess.
Comments
Anyway, it's a game. And it's not like this is an integral part of the story or like it would have to make any sense in order for you to solve the puzzle.
The coals are a bit of the statue: you can see a broken off, glowing edge when it falls over.
Having the coals randomly appear might be lazy or a lack of creativity, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's a major problem. It's one isolated incident.
Sometimes people may needlessly get caught up in the "prasing TellTale bandwagon", but some people also needlessly get caught up in the "let's tear TellTale apart over some minor flaw bandwagon." Not saying you are, but some people carry on and on about how annoying this one little thing is.
Nowhere does he imply or comment on the fact that they're hers. He's commenting on the fact that she was sitting on them while trapped under the statue.
Interestingly, you can indeed see glowy bits in the broken bits of statue. Why the statue is made out of coal, I have no idea. Like I said: it's not a big deal, but it made me raise an eyebrow. Had there been some sort of wooden shack blown to smithereens, this would've been a lot smoother.
Who?
Think about it this way, did the game designers think about what the merfolk used to make the statue? You're just making up possible excuses for them.
I think the main problem was "What were the developers thinking with the magically appearing coals?". And after playing through that part again, the answer seems to be that it is indeed parts of that mer-statue's face. How it is equivalent to coal is the lazy/un-creative/rushed bit.
BUt you are all right, a bit too much emphasis on a minor problem which doesn't really make or break the game, nor is it a major part in the plot.
To me, it is just another small irritating thing, and they accumulate and together they may draw back from the game but so far they haven't.
Terrific game overall, well done TellTale. End of sory.
Interesting. Next time, let's just put have a monkey wrench, a length of rope and a rubber chicken with a pulley in the moddle appear. After all, who knows the exact material used by merfolk for their statues?
It amazes me how people will jump through any possible hoop in order to quell everything that isn't the highest praise for telltale and their games.
OK, he left out the sarcasm tags, but I think it's pretty obvious that you shouldn't take it as an explanation, but as a sarcastic comment indicating that no explanation is needed.
How dare Elaine have coals in her inventory which fell out when she fell over! How dare Telltale not point a big shiny sign towards the bucket when I went up there previously so that I didn't miss it!
I demand a refund and a full apology! Worst game ever!
Yup, same here. OP, I think you have a hole in your bucket if you catch my drift.
or she was stealing them because she was mad at the merleader and wanted him? her? to die which is achieved by taking them so the temperature would be too low in the tub muahahahahahaha
Well, it's very obv something is up with Elaine being able to sit on burning coal. TTG obv wanted to point it out because they think through their stuff. It's not random. We will get an explanation to why she could sit at burning coal.
You.
Really? Where did I say that it was annoying?
I definetley did not like this puzzle. Agree 100%
The game doesn't set out very interesting problems for you to solve, but the way previous MI games would have you solve them would be MUCH more clever and satisfying.
I had high hopes for this episode being a major improvement, and it was even worse.
Tadaa!
If you click the ocean by the docks eleventy million times, a secret cutscene plays showing the founding of Spinning Cay a hundred years ago by the ancestor of the Vaycaylians - Kermatzefrog. As his first act of government, he declares war on the United States of America, and President Max decides to launch a missile on Spinner Cay, which destroys their container of rubber-chickens-with-pulleys-in-the-middle that was just delivered by the starfish that now lives on Isle of Ewe beach. The container explodes and the ashes scatter. But the power of a nuclear missile+rubber chickens collapses the universe and caused a time-space vortex that randomly spits out coals every so often.
I can't believe you all missed that part!
Wow. That was very Maxish, meander.
I hope you're being sarcastic or something because there's no call for that kind of comment.
The bucket had the holes to let you know it will not be used to get water.
Would it fix the problem for you if they were described as 'Hot debris'? If so, then you're quibbling over a word.
Hot statue debris WOULD NOT flame in such a manner as would be needed in a BBQ.
The issue is that it makes no sense. If the object was "Red-Hot piece of Totem" and it was eventually incinerated in the oven, it would make sense. Nobody would be complaining.
The fact that it is red hot coals, and three of them on the ground directly under Elaine with no explanation whatsoever, and the absolute LAMENESS of the puzzle it is associated with, makes people complain. And so they SHOULD. Stop accepting mediocrity.
There's two distinct issues being discussed here:
1. Whether the puzzle is fair, in pure puzzle design terms (noticing the objects involved)
2. Whether the hot coals make sense in the environment of the game.
As regards point 1, that seems entirely reasonable. It's been established that the bucket (which is the object the OP was specifically stating they had difficulty tracking down) is present from the beginning of the game; it's reasonable for a graphic adventure designer to expect the player to collect everything in sight in each location from the very beginning, so it's reasonable to expect the player to already have the item at that point.
As an aside, 'everything in sight' is important; hard-to-see items or obscurely hidden items can cause problems - that's one reason I find many Room Escape-style Flash games to be unreasonable. The bucket, however, is entirely visible.
Some people suggested that there was a similar such problem with the Hot Coals. This time, there's a key difference; the location changes to make the hot coals appear. This can be dangerous to design, because it can make it easy for a player to miss the changes and not be aware that they need to poke around that area. Telltale solve this by *forcing* you to go over there to move on; they make you go over there and have the scene with Elaine.
In short: From a game design standpoint, you freeing Elaine was nothing to do with you freeing Elaine - you'll notice it's not actually a puzzle, just go there and do it - and everything to do with making you go over there, look at the wrecked scene and encourage you to notice the hot coals.
Of course, all this is making a big assumption that I'm right. Telltale may have a whole different philosophy and it just happens to coincidentally match mine in this instance.
Point 2 is a whole different thing - and let me stress, it has *nothing* to do with the puzzle design, and is solely an issue with the nature of the game world. There's an extremely good essay which - in part - covers this subject. It was written about text adventures but it applies very well to this setup as well; it's entitled "Crimes Against Mimesis" - Google should help you out if you want further information.
Just for the record, my memory of this puzzle - which may well be incorrect - is that there was an incense burner or lantern or something in the area which was destroyed by the attack. If that's the case, then that's definitely a valid reason for the coals existing. If not, though, we must assume that they're either debris from the statue (which aren't logically 'coals', but it's not necessarily unreasonable to just treat them as 'hot rocks', their ultimate usage pretty much bears that out) or were carried by Elaine. If that latter interpretation is the intentional one, then I'd suggest that that probably needs some explanation at some point. But then, no-one asks just why LeChuck is carrying around some Breath Mints. He's a character in an adventure game. It's what they do.
Clearly TellTale has done their job.
Exactly. And then the fact that there just so happens to be a big BBQ in the middle of the jungle, exactly where you need it, that might as well have a big red arrow with
It's a scene I saw once, briefly, a couple of weeks ago. I could well be wrong. Either way, that's only relevant to point 2, not point 1, and point 1 is the specific *gameplay* issue. Point 2 is an aesthetic one, not irrelevant, but not an issue with the *puzzle*.
i think the coal thingie was pretty badly written, but i think the main problem with this episode was that overall the puzzels were not very good...
like how 3 of the puzzels were solved by claiming cuopns and a 4th was used to strongly suggest what one of them were used for... also that the cuopons were placed right were you needed them,.. straight at the fishing well and the other one right next to lechuc when he was missing a pearl...
i feel that the whole coal issue is compleately shading over all the other bad puzzels... as i said earlier, if episode one was like episode two, you wouldnt make the dark ninja dave, you would just pick up a coupon and claim your ninja dave somewhere....
all in all, im hoping for better puzzels in episode 3...
yeah i'm just thinking of it as an example of the problems that were with most of the puzzles
'xactly. I _know_
Haha!