You think John is able to stay 'good' in episode 5?

Or is he going to change to Joker anyway?


  • I think you can either try to "help" John in episode 5, or you can go after him, in which case he'll view you as hindrance to his quest to bring people to "justice" and view you as a foe, but I don't think he'll go Full Villain if you picked the Vigilante route.

  • Vigilante Joker reminds me of Venom during the Lethal Protector series. His sense of right and wrong are so warped that even when he does something he considers good bad things happen.

  • I think that, in the end, Joker will become bad anyways, but the degree to how evil John becomes will depend on how Bruce/Batman treated John through past choices, including whether he became a vigilante or a villain.

    Even if John becomes a vigilante in your story (like he did in mine), I definitely don't see it working out in the long run (if at all) considering that they are already building up to John's instability this episode with his episode on the bridge (regardless if you trusted him or not) as well as his murder of the Agency agents back at the funhouse. As I said in another thread, that is not a normal degree of retaliation, even in self-defense.

  • Judging by the image of the episode it seems as if John will lose control and attack Batman. I feel like Telltale will give us the option to hurt John or try to get through to him and stop him from harming the citizens of Gotham. I think that we will be presented with a choice to put John away in Arkham Asylum or to have him put away in a prison cell that is highly guarded. Or they can surprise us all by giving us an option to kill him...... However I could be very wrong..

  • I think he'll end up as Joker no matter what. However in one version he's thinking he's doing the right thing. I just think, as the vigilante, Bruce will be forced to fight him and John will start to see Batman as the enemy. Maybe even be all 'You don't see it Bruce! Your wrong, you need help!' So like a vice versa thing. lol.

  • I think that it'll come back to Batman's code, and that's likely why it was revisited in Ep4 in that scene with Alfred and Tiffany. I think both John will maintain that he's doing Justice, and he will be serving justice -- but he'll go further than Bruce does. The dilemma I think that we'll be facing in Ep5 will be the same argument some have made with Batman before :: for some, he doesn't go far enough.

    What I am wondering is what TellTale will allow for us to have happen with vigilante John. Will we be allowed to agree with him, that it just isn't enough, and there are circumstances where death is the answer? I'm not sure that they will, but that would be one poll I'd be curious to see the results of.

  • edited January 2018

    But it also depends on who he kills. Not all the agency people are aware that their working for the bad guy. John won't care about that. Or, I don't think he would.

    Poptarts posted: »

    I think that it'll come back to Batman's code, and that's likely why it was revisited in Ep4 in that scene with Alfred and Tiffany. I think

  • Well, the ending choice does say he's a vigilante. Also, in the villain ending he says that we could've prevented this. So maybe they're are going to keep him good? Although, Telltale don't have a good history with having branching paths. But they did do a great job with Conrad.

    If Telltale do keep him good it would be cool if they had Bruce help him with his illness, maybe Avesta can help him in that regard? Having him being good but completely unstable would just feel weird. I mean it wouldn't even be a anti-hero type because antiheroes don't kill innocents.

  • Isn't Deadpool considered an anti hero, and has killed innocents?

    Well, the ending choice does say he's a vigilante. Also, in the villain ending he says that we could've prevented this. So maybe they're are

  • edited January 2018

    Villains become heroes... all the time in comics. Taking the vigilante route with John and him ending up killing all those agency people (and maybe even innocent bystanders), doesn't mean he no longer has a shot at being a "good guy".

    Even when it seems he's gone off the deep end, he talks about wanting justice. His goals are admirable, but his methods are extreme and unnecessary.

    Bruce had to explain -- even to Tiffany -- that Batman doesn't kill people... I kept thinking about that part of the episode in relation to John, especially during the bridge scene.

  • I expect him to be the villain no matter what. What I think will happen is that he will be in a situation where Batman has to take him down and that will solidify it. While completely alternate scenes and timelines would be amazing, it's not what I'm expecting. I believe he will be in said situation but his mindset will be determined by our previous choices. He will either be in this same situation maliciously or by believing he is doing the right thing. The outcome would still be Batman taking him down and creating a nemesis.

    I hope it will be grander, but this is what I'm expecting(not negatively, either!).

  • I'm not big on deadpool lore, but from what I've seen he's completely unpredictable and not like any other character in comics, so he's not a good judge of character. I was thinking more along the lines of The Punisher, who only kills those who deserve it.

    I guess I was overstating that antiheroes don't kill innocents, because I'm sure there's some that do, but my definition of one is that they wouldn't.

    Poptarts posted: »

    Isn't Deadpool considered an anti hero, and has killed innocents?

  • I certainly hope "VIgilante" and "Villain" jokers will end up different.

  • Honestly there comes a time in most versions of Batman where the whole "Catch Joker (or insert another villain), throw Joker in Arkham, Joker escapes and kills more and more people, catch Joker, repeat the whole process..." just gets old and pointless. I hope they do something different with John in TT.

  • It's Telltale, so John is probs gonna be Joker either way.

  • OzzyUKOzzyUK Moderator

    I get the feeling John will always become the joker but how it happens will depend on how episode 4 ended.

    John is smart and manipulative and i wouldn’t be surprised if he has been using us from the very start by pretending to be vulnerable, in the funhouse scene i didn’t beleive his story about the ambush but i said i did as i felt bad for him which is how i feel Telltale (and John) want us to feel.

    Joker is one of the main enemies in the Batman universe so i don’t see why he wouldn’t be one in Telltale’s adaptation, it’s just the run up to his role of villain which is unique and interesting.

  • I feel like some people have some misconceptions about John. He becomes the Joker in both endings, it's not something you're supposed to prevent. The difference is his behavior, his motivations, his overall views on the world and his methods. He's still destined to become the Joker and he does. The name stays the same, the character is what changes.

  • I wouldn’t count on Joker staying “good” as he becomes the Joker in both endings with the only difference being that he’s either angry at Bruce or not, both endings end with John solidifying himself as an unstoppable force who’s going to dish out his own brand of “justice.” Honestly, I don’t think John has ever really been “good” considering it seems he has somewhat of a dark history that he’s not telling us or maybe he doesn’t even realize it and is just letting it all happen.

  • edited January 2018

    Pretty much this. Notice the description said "vigilante," not hero. A vigilante can be just as dangerous in his own right as a flat-out villain.

    I've said it before, but there's an element of Greek tragedy in the Telltale continuity of Batman, at least in the sense of particular characters becoming heroes or villains regardless of what we do. But the game isn't completely fatalistic. Much like Harvey Dent, our friendship with John Doe could be downright airtight, even while everything else goes to hell.

    In most versions of Batman's universe, the Joker tortures and kills people out of sheer nihilistic mischief. But "Vigilante Joker" could torture and kill people because he genuinely believes he's making the world a better place to live. He operates out of a deranged sense of optimism instead of nihilism. That's what's great about a character like the Joker; he's crazy enough for either motivation to be believable. I really hope Telltale will carry our choices with John/Joker into season 3, assuming there is one.

    HexIgon posted: »

    I feel like some people have some misconceptions about John. He becomes the Joker in both endings, it's not something you're supposed to pre

  • Yeah, that's something I think a lot of people misinterpret. (Or maybe they don't. Opinions and all, you can believe whatever you want people!)
    But in my opinion, John isn't exactly "good" in any case. In both instances, he blows up the bombs on the bridge, endangering all the lives of the agents, (and in vigilante ending) Harley, and his buddy Bruce. He believes he'll clean up Gotham with Batman, but we all know that won't happen. John's methods can be quite cruel (as we've seen with the agents in the funhouse), and they definitely don't line up with Batman's code.

    So, no. I don't think we'll be able to keep John as "good", because he really isn't all that "good" right now anyway. His views are just twisted and delusional because he doesn't seem to understand the severity of his actions.
    I'll believe him about the agents at the carnival, because he may not have intended to cause such a severe action. While him feeling guilty about his actions is debatable, he truly knows what he did is wrong, and doesn't want to get caught in a situation like that with someone he knows. John is a genuine guy with a couple problems in his mental state. He's agressive and has frequent outbursts when he gets stressed, makes a mistake, or "is betrayed", but that's just who he is. He can be a nice guy.. we've seen that already.

    While he may not stay good, I really hope we can still lead him to get the help he needs. I have faith that we can at least keep him on the lighter side of psychopathy instead of letting him fall into the void. I don't want to have to hurt John if we don't need to.

    HexIgon posted: »

    I feel like some people have some misconceptions about John. He becomes the Joker in both endings, it's not something you're supposed to pre

  • I don't understand why everyone assumes the vigilante John is the "good" ending or the good John. He seemed even more vicious to me. Villain John blew up a lot of stuff but Vigilante John flat out stabbed Waller.

  • I think Vigilante and Villain will just determine his relationship with Harley Quinn, Bruce's relationship with the Agency and John's interactions with Bruce and reasoning for his actions, which would be a good way to go about it in my opinion.

  • Seen as this is a telltale game he will end up following a liner path.

    Even if he does by some crazy chance become good he will either not return in s3 or have a very small scene.

    How do these topics still keep coming up. Do you not play other telltale games lol

  • edited January 2018

    What if Joker injects himself with the serum, the one that heals their body but fries their brain. And then he will shift from his current self into the Joker that we all know and love.
    After all, he doesn't want to give it to waller, or anyone for that matter. So he may as well steal their opportunity by injecting it to himself.

  • Well this will depends whether we will be given the choice to have a heroic Joker or he becomes a villain. Personally I would want this idea to happen. An anti-hero Joker would be something completely new and fresh if you ask me

    Just found this video now and it does have ideas of a heroic Joker:

    The Jokester of Earth 3 would partly serve as a good inspiration for an anti-hero Joker

    Make it happen Telltale!

  • edited February 2018

    Idk, it would be a little strange if “vigilante” ending is just a fake. Like: “hey, guys, congrats, thanks to your actions Joker is now a vigilante, but, oops, he’s a villain anyway, haha, isn’t it wonderful to feel how all your support and trust worked out in the end, lol?”
    What’s the point? The morale? The doomed are doomed? You can’t beat what’s in your DNA? Mental illness can’t be defeated, just give up already? Destiny is destiny, don’t struggle? The whole John’s story arc seemed to me like a struggle between mental illness, his violent nature and need to fit in, find himself and connect with a few people he cared about. So him losing NOW despite everything seems veeeeeeeeery strange to me. Like tragedy for the sake of the tragedy. I don’t mind tragedy, but each tragedy have an idea, and the idea of this tragedy, if it happens, seems pretty hollow. “Joker is destined to become Joker because he is Joker!” – I don’t know… In real life, it often happens ( DNA and etc), but for the written story seems like a bad idea to promote. Batman saves people, he inspires people, gives them hope. He inspired a lot of men and women to step on vigilante path – look at his Batfamily.

    Also, I do believe it’s very tempting for TT to actually MAKE John a vigilante. A real vigilante, not a fake one for 1 episode. All others versions weren’t popular at all, and, im my opinion, they were poorly done. I didn’t like Jokester for one bit. He felt like a fake – a guy who looked like Joker, had similar name, history, but wasn’t actually him.
    TT have a chance to actually make REAL vigilante Joker, a good one. Because so far he was just John – just a man with mental issues, and he still was the Joker in every way. He felt like the Joker. They can do the same with vigilante (or fail horribly, but I do have faith in them).
    If they’re actually going to keep this vigilante version, they planned it from the start of the season, and most likely they already have an idea how to handle season 3. I, myself, can’t imagine how, but maybe they can.

    And I can’t see how vigilante villain” would work with Joker, he can’t become like this guy:

    The first time John opened his mouth and began to talk about “justice” he reminded me of
    Lock-Up aka Lyle Bolton. That was unpleasant, not only because Bolton (hear the irony?) was a sadistic son of a bitch and a control freak, hiding behind “justice” to satisfy his needs, but also because I just can’t see John fitting in this role. He is just different. His brain doesn’t work in such simplistic ways. He just wouldn’t be himself. And, honestly, vigilante obsessed with justice Jokers seems so boring?.. Because Joker never limited himself to terms like “justice”, he always observed things from different angles and have seen a bigger picture. Black and white views or fanatical views won’t fit the character, he’ll become boooooooring.

    I can see something like The_Bat_Among_Us suggested happening: with John ending up injected with serum. I can’t see him injecting it himself in vigilante, but the vial could be broken or whatever. 1000 and 1 ways for John to get infected. Still, would be a little strange as the end of the struggle, but a little better than him just turning against Batman.

    Also, I don’t believe he’ll just turn against Bruce because they would disagree on the methods. And I don’t believe he doesn’t know Bruce’s disgust by violence and killing in general, he’s not an idiot. Otherwise he wouldn’t be so ashamed of himself in front of Bruce for murdering those agents brutally. So, him just killing ppl left and right, when coming to Bruce and asking for help, expecting aid?... I don’t know, I don’t know… Unless he’s drunk again and suffering very hard episode of memory and brain loss.

    But hey, Waller wasn’t exactly smart in the 4 episode too, wasn’t she? So, maybe he will turn out stupid, and maybe the morale of this story is tragedy for tragedy sake, but I have my doubts about that.

    Long post. Oops. ¯_( =/)_/¯
    Edit: also, I think the question is not "can he stay good", because he wasn't good. The question is can he be REFORMED to good?

  • I think that even as a Vigilante John is not "good" by any conventional sense of the word. His sense of Justice and good is seriously skewed and anything that he perceives as "rudeness" he feels is punishable by death, without remorse (as demonstrated by the dead agents - he was not remorseful, just worried of disappointing Bruce/Batman and that he may turn him in - and the explosion on the bridge).

    So I guess that Batman will have to take him down either way, sooner or later, because Vigilante Joker, as previously said here, may end up even more violent, dangerous and volatile that "Villain Joker", only believing that he is doing it for the right reasons and serving justice. I can already imagine his disappointment in a confrontation with Bruce/Batman for Bruce not getting how "good" he has been and for turning on him when he is just helping his buddy Bruce in serving "justice" (this is how he will see it).

    Having said that, even if the final outcome might be the same, I hope that telltale keeps the distinction in motivations clear between the two Jokers. And a part of me would actually like to see Vigilante Joker continue as a thing without him being captured. Some sort of Joker's version of Jason Todd's Red Hood (ah, the irony of that, considering what Joker did to Jason Todd and that Joker was actually the original Red Hood, although Red Hood was a different type of character back then).

Sign in to comment in this discussion.