If you chose Vigilante, please read
I am curious to hear from the individuals who played season two and
A. sympathized and/or empathized with Joker
B. Tried to steer him towards good.
C. went down the Vigilante path in E5
I am curious as to what your reasons are for developing a likeness towards the character and why you thought he could be saved/redeemed etc.
I'm asking this in all sincerity and honest well-thought-out answers are appreciated. I am not seeking validation on my own choices in the game, just simply the rationale and/or logic behind your decisions.
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Vigilante is my cannon playthrough and I gotta say I really hesitate to trust John..
Well, several reasons here.
1°)He looked unstable. I didn't believe him at 100% but I was sure it was better to keep him close. You know what they say? Keep your friends close and your ennemies closer.
2°)Lack of confidence. If he's that way it's because no one believes in him. He probably wanted to be friend with Bruce because he is everything he isn't: rich, popular, well-liked, confident.. Just let's give him that little push, uh?
3°)Having him around is fun.
4°)From all the members of the Pact, he was the less psychotic and not a killer. He was more of a follower than a leader.
5°) He's the Joker. I pretty much felt that if I let him down he would go full crazy. Would have I done the same if he was a nobody? I can't tell, really.
As the season went on it became apparent how much John cared about Bruce. He defended Bruce to the bartender, set off the emp, tried to keep Bruce from being blamed for being the mole, tried to convince Harley not to kill him, and saved him from Bane/Freeze.
I didn't make the episode 4 decision to trust him because I thought I could save him or something. Once he revealed that he knew our identity I simply thought it would be better to have him on our side as opposed to being enemies. And I continued to trust him on the bridge because throughout the season he showed how much he wanted to impress Bruce and came through for us on several occasions.
It paid off in the end because the vigilante route was absolutely incredible.
I invested alot into John Doe, his presence really grew on me and I found myself doing everything in my power to please him. Loved Vigilante though I hated the fight at the end and well the heart to heart moment had me in tears and affected me all day! It left me emotionally comprised but then I was a little uplifted that our friendship was still there when I visited him at Arkham.
Yes he was a murderer.. yes he was a psychopath... but he was my friend and I wanted to save him
I was unsure about John at first. When he gave me the get well soon card at the funeral I didn't like it and he freaked out. It was kind of off putting because I didn't realize he was being genuine. And that's kind of what started me down the path of trying to redeem him. He literally didn't know any better. He didn't understand what he was doing is wrong, and I thought if I could steer him down a better path he could see the light or at least be productive. And then when I saw he was being manipulated and abused by Harley I just doubled down on it. I trusted John at the end of What Ails You because I could totally see those agents trying to kill him on the spot. Sure it was fishy, but at the same time it wasn't that far-fetched of a story. He always came through for me previously so it was easy trusting him on the bridge. A part of me knew he could never fit the role of hero, but I wanted him to be something better than he is in the Villain path. When he killed the agents in Ace Chemicals and snapped I knew that the charade was over. That's when I knew he was out of control and would never be what I thought he could be. John really only wanted a friend and to belong to something, but he could never overcome his demons. I don't think I can blame him for being the way he is but he can't be the hero he wanted to be.
He feels so genuine. I wanted to kill him because we know of his future as the Clown Prince of Crime, but as I got to know him I do feel for him. He is trying to be good, but he's been let down by a number of fool. Even Waller tried to shoot him after he handed over Harley
I felt it was my opportunity to change him because I do feel like I owe him. He was good to Bruce and genuinely views him as a friend. So I wanted to be his friend too. I would even allow him to be an anti-hero if it meant keeping him a good guy. He could fill the Red Hood role in this universe. While I was quite saddened he turned evil after killing the three agents it was only for a brief moment and he did turn back sane when we talk. I still told him I'm his friend and we bonded at that moment
Then the visit to Arkham were John sees Bruce. You can just see a gimps of happiness in his eyes and you could tell there is still a chance for him to be good. He just needs his moment
Will not give up on him
Why did I care about him and want to help him? Because I can relate to the character. I don't murder people nor have I ever been in a asylum. But I know what it's like to have mental issues. Low self esteem, mood swings, etc.
He is a sad broken man who doesnt know his place in the world, he reminded my batman of a young bruce before he decided on his mission and didnt want ANOTHER Harvey Dent. He was a man who needed my help and my batman doesnt just give up on people. He needs to be put in a mental hospital after all that happened but not arkham, so im happy that in my ending i visit him and help him through his treatment. I will say his quirks (the non violent ones ) did make me grow to enjoy his company, he was almost always so chipper and thats something batman lacks for the most part. I really hope there is a season 3 to see how all these arcs finish (ecspecially selina and stuff from s1) and hopefully see john at least partly reformed. Id like him to have a larger role but ill settle for a few visits every other episodes to talk since i no longer have alfred.
Everything @Coyote99 said is exactly how I felt. Season 1 John felt untrustworthy and manipulative, but very quickly into Season 2, his actions with the card portray him as very genuinely being crazy, yet still trying his best to please. It was also that moment for me, that my outlook on him changed to: "Wow, he really just doesn't know better."
There's so many scenes that go to such lengths showing how devoted John is to you, and how he's so willing to help you, and so obsessed with pleasing you. He's unstable, and crazy, and inexperienced with this world, and doesn't know who he is, but you are his guiding light. He's our responsibility. Even if his unwavering puppy-ish devotion or fun-loving childish quirks didn't endear you to him and actually totally creeped you out, I felt at very least we owed him some trust after all he'd done. He never once seemed intentionally malicious, and I believed that if he had the right guidance he could learn right and wrong and be able to control himself. I still believe so, honestly, but that the situations the game put us in didn't allow for him the treatment that he needed.
Additionally, the view that "He's The Joker and will always become The Joker" was a reason for treating John a certain way really didn't please me, because of how utterly unique John was. I felt it was an unfair way to write off his characterization, and that he really should be treated as Telltale's unique character "John Doe" with no assumptions or strings attached. So I had hopes that he could go somewhere entirely different, if Telltale so desired.
And, I guess, in closing, I want to say: I really felt no attachment to the Villain route. Villain Ep 5 was excellently tense, and interesting, and well-written, and in comparison the Vigilante route felt mostly empty and short and like the best and strongest moments were only in the end, but; the Villain route was all because of Bruce's own screw up, to me. It felt irresponsible to turn against John in your one hour to do something good for him, to become an enemy when he needed guidance, and so it felt impersonal. So I do like the Vigilante ending much more!
I supported John because it's made clear in S1 how f-ed up Arkham is/was, and that's the Wayne family's fault.
TBH, I think Joker made a better hero than Batman-- he may have been wrong about Waller killing Riddler, but he's not afraid to go after those in power.
I also liked working with the Pact this season-- I sympathized with each one of them, and seriously disliked how I was forced to do Waller's bidding so often and ultimately betray them.
My biggest take-away from this Telltale game was that Batman really isn't such a great hero-- he's a rich guy with cool toys who beats up thugs, and occasionally super-thugs who are super-sick of his holier-than-thou bullshit. John/Joker calls him out on this during the Vigilante fight, and there's no good response except "Oh uh but murder is bad." Mmm, sure Bats, you keep thinking that while people like Waller do whatever they like with impunity.
Alfred makes a compelling case against Batman in the end, though it isn't entirely coherent (what, at 70 years old or whatever you JUST realized that things in the world are "grey" rather than black & white? that's always been the case). But the option to give up the cowl made for a very cool ending, imo, because it shows that our Bruce is capable of growing beyond Batman, perhaps into something better.
In earlier episodes it was because he genuinely seemed like a lost soul and frankly he was endearing trailing after me. But the real reason is because he trusted me (an example is giving me the virus in ep 5, actually telling me "I trust you on this," it touched me tbh). I tried to steer him right but ultimately it didn't work. The scene after the credits was sweet, gave me hope
I generally sympathize with troubled, lost and traumatized people in stories. John seemed like a naive unstable child thrown away into the world. He quickly charmed me with his sincerity and my caring instincts kicked in. I saw that TTG gave me an opportunity to shape him into a different person. Perhaps I was naive too but I hoped that I could guide John, maybe prevent him from breaking down. His admiration of Batman and genuine attempts to become a hero really touched me. Yeah, I gotta agree, in some situations I protected him blindly but I don’t regret it. He is my friend and will always be. My ending gave me hope.