So let's talk about our Romantic Interpretation of John and Bruce (Plot Discussion Thread)

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Comments

  • I think you're missing the point here. The option of John and Bruce having feelings for one another isn't unrealistic or far-fetched from the story? Its something that is very well likely, and even hinted at in episode 5. So comparing the option of Bruce and John having some sort of "romance", to a janitor Batman makes 0 sense.

    Kaelthas posted: »

    I was hoping for more than the typical "Educate yourself" meme. I don't think my argument is wrong, I am applying your logic of "If you d

  • edited April 2018

    "Do you know what a fallacy is? Because having to do additional writing, story path branching, concept, animation, etc. for an "optional" choice does increase the waiting time involved and increases the costs involved with development"

    Your second point is not related to your first question "do you know what a fallacy is?" and it demonstrate even further that you have no idea what you're talking about on the first place since you went from argument A, to argument C but i'll give this the benefit of the doubt and I'll start replying to your second point. Actually the cost wouldn't be more incisive than the one that already is, since the voice actor is the same(for John/Joker) and recording some more lines wouldn't hurt that much and even if, the money that they'll gain from the people who bought this game knowing of this possible choice, would repay and even add more money to the plate. We are not talking about adding more voice actors(those would be added regardless of this option being added or not since the story progresses and more villain/characters will probably be added anyway) but about the addition of a possible choice with the actors we already have.

    The same argument could have been made if they decided to go for a Harley/Bruce or an Avesta/Bruce romance option. So what are we discussing again?

    edit:
    "I don't think you respect how much time and effort goes into creating an entire "optional" sub-plot for an overly vocal minority's head-canon."

    The fact that you define one of the most iconic shipped couple a "minority's headcanon" highlights that you have no idea of what you're talking about. BatJokes fans are a huge piece of the pie and the market would benefit even more(if you think that the developers of this game or any other batman-related game don't know, then you're either naive or misinformed)

    Gudmooore posted: »

    "Optional". There's that word again. Do you know what a fallacy is? Because having to do additional writing, story path branching, concep

  • Batman doesn't kill

    I think some people would disagree with you on that lmao

    Kaelthas posted: »

    I was hoping for more than the typical "Educate yourself" meme. I don't think my argument is wrong, I am applying your logic of "If you d

  • That is your interpretation of that scene.
    I'm not saying they are the same thing, one is clearly a ship and the other one is a job. I am talking about options, why can you get whatever option you want and tell people "If you don't like it don't pick it", but others can't? You must have a lot of arguments about why John and Bruce make sense, but that doesn't relate at all to the logic "if you don't like the option, don't pick it".

    Suzy222 posted: »

    I think you're missing the point here. The option of John and Bruce having feelings for one another isn't unrealistic or far-fetched from th

  • "I don't think my argument is wrong, I am applying your logic of "If you don't like the option, don't pick it" to a situation you didn't like, who would like a janitor Batman?. "

    This is a perfect example of strawman fallacy,man!

    Kaelthas posted: »

    I was hoping for more than the typical "Educate yourself" meme. I don't think my argument is wrong, I am applying your logic of "If you d

  • Catwoman is sane and doesnt kill people though, the most she does it steal and has shown that she still has good in her. Harley does not.

    Another ship that again doesnt make much sense. Harley in the game, is not a good person at all. She also kills people and again there is no real romance with her. She just flirted with Bruce just to mess with him and John. It wouldnt make any sense in the story of Bruce had romantic feelings to Harley.

    And yes that is a valid point for why the option could be there, to be different for Batman. However, for this story being told and what was going on? It wouldnt make sense for it to be added in, it just wouldnt fit.

    Poptarts posted: »

    This isn't the ship that I actually sail, but while I understand your point Catwoman is also a villain that Batman is able to befriend. Ther

  • Why? Because I'm proving your logic has a double standard?

    What do you want me to refute about your argument then? The deal is not with John x Bruce, is with your logic.

    "I don't think my argument is wrong, I am applying your logic of "If you don't like the option, don't pick it" to a situation you didn't like, who would like a janitor Batman?. " This is a perfect example of strawman fallacy,man!

  • I feel as if this thread is going south, fast. It's such a shame. Try to keep on topic people. Though I will say this, and I hope this doesn't classify as going off topic either, because now I'm unsure what's allowed and what's not, due to the nature of where this thread has gone.

    A Janitor Batman is miles off being interested in not just women. A Janitor Batman... would be boring. Where's your story there? Batman can still be Batman, no matter who he's interested in. This isn't the first time he's shown interest in Joker either if you look at other Batman media. Not every incarnation, but some. Telltale's is just one of many Batman universes. They even said that they didn't just want have another Joker, so they tweaked the guy, and it paid off big time! Harley isn't submissive, Lucius is dead, Thomas Wayne was a criminal, Penguin was younger, etc. It's safe to say that opening up a possibility of when it comes to relationships isn't as farfetched as say literally turning the Penguin younger. In another universe, if someone is a certain age, you can't alter that unless it's another universe, but you CAN delve into a person's sexuality, because that's sometimes a much harder thing to figure out. I still stand that the choice doesn't matter, because if you leave it alone, it's not part of your story. There's many opportunities to romance Selina, but I did none of them, and yet, I will still play the game, because I enjoy it.

  • Saying that your interpretation is the only correct one just comes off as arrogant. also what's the sexual meanings behind "I'm on top and Stop me"? Pretty much normal phrases.

    Bandicoot88 posted: »

    There is a thread already thick with discussion on their relationship since episode 5, but if this thread is to serve a slightly different p

  • edited April 2018

    "Why? Because I'm proving your logic has a double standard?

    What do you want me to refute about your argument then? The deal is not with John x Bruce, is with your logic."

    Man, it's over.
    Your argument is invalid and since you didn't know what to write and how to reply, you went with an exageration that has no sense(this is the strawman fallacy, in case you were too lazy too google it up).
    I'll try to reason with you and answer to your first point about Bruce being a janitor(though I find it extremely over-stretched). No one on this planet have ever considered this, and probably they don't even want this, but the thing is that we are talking about relationships, not jobs; plus while there's no one on earth that would want Bruce as a janitor, while a huge part of the population would want Bruce and John to be a thing(Batjokes community is huge and like i've already explained, the thing is already exploited for marketing purposes and fanservice is a thing)

    Edit: i'll add this, Bruce being a janitor would alter the story since Bruce is a multi-millionaire and the Batman; while him having a romance with a man instead of a woman won't since he'll keep being what he is regardless and has nothing to do with his job.
    And before you say "Bruce is not canonically gay" well, first we don't know about this(he could be bisexual like Harley or other characters), and even if, Vicky Vale is not canonically a villain(Lady Arkaham) and Joker is not canonically submissive towards Harley(while in the Telltale version the dinamic has been re-versed and I found it quite intresting and refreshing). If we talk about the canon, we can open an entire discussion about it, but now we are talking about a Telltale game, where the game is tailored according to your choices

    Kaelthas posted: »

    Why? Because I'm proving your logic has a double standard? What do you want me to refute about your argument then? The deal is not with John x Bruce, is with your logic.

  • Wait, what do you mean by "repay" did you mean replay?

    I cant think of anyone who would rebuy a game, simply because of a single choice, unless that person really doesnt like money.

    Might just be me not reading it correctly but thats what Im getting from that lmao

    "Do you know what a fallacy is? Because having to do additional writing, story path branching, concept, animation, etc. for an "optional" ch

  • You can't tell me Janitor Batman would not be a good option based solely in the fact that you don't find it interesting, besides, why don't you let me apply the logic everyone else is applying? "If you don't like that option, then don't pick it", ahhh, because you know Telltale would have to waste resources in making a janitor Batmat, and because you think it doesn't make sense.

    There actually is an episode of Batman TAS in which Batman passes as a Janitor, is mostly made as a joke though.

    And I can give you arguments, say Bruce is tired and shit like that, or that Waller after the mess of the bridge made him work as Janitor or she would reveal his identity.

    See? I can give you arguments, same as you can, but for some reason, you guys can get whatever option you want, and tell people to shove it if they don't like it, but I don't.

    Bandicoot88 posted: »

    I feel as if this thread is going south, fast. It's such a shame. Try to keep on topic people. Though I will say this, and I hope this doesn

  • My interpretation is different from yours, so as the game stands as a whole, if you saw differently to me, I'm not gonna argue with that. It's more of that one choice in ep5, which I think is just too clear to have any other interpretation (I explained why in much depth). As for the sexual meanings... well, the phrases have double meanings to them, a bit like innuendos. It's obvious not everyone is going to pick up on them, but they are there. Villain Joker wasn't shy about being flirtatious about things. "I'm on top", I don't think I even need to explain this one. "Stop me" was partially just in how he said it, but also it's a challenge that he wants Bruce to accept, in that he wants this dance, to be important, whether it be enemies, or as friends.

    Dan10 posted: »

    Saying that your interpretation is the only correct one just comes off as arrogant. also what's the sexual meanings behind "I'm on top and Stop me"? Pretty much normal phrases.

  • Oh, you should have said it from the beginning. Your logic of the whole "I can get whatever option I want, even if it doesn't fit in the game, because if you don't like it you don't have to pick it" only applies to you, because "my group of fans is big".

    What if I get you a crowd about Janitor Batman too? Please don't tell me you would suddenly change your opinion just because there are many people supporting Janitor Batman.

    "Why? Because I'm proving your logic has a double standard? What do you want me to refute about your argument then? The deal is not with

  • edited April 2018

    "Oh, you should have said it from the beginning. Your logic of the whole "I can get whatever option I want, even if it doesn't fit in the game, because if you don't like it you don't have to pick it" only applies to you, because "my group of fans is big".

    What if I get you a crowd about Janitor Batman too? Please don't tell me you would suddenly change your opinion just because there are many people supporting Janitor Batman."

    How many times have I to repeat that NO ONE IS TRYING TO IMPOSE ANYTHING?!. I'll drop the argument because you would only take what I say out-of context and stretch my words. It's impossible to deal with an illogical person.
    I had already made my points regarding jobs vs relationships, but you don't even read what I write.

    Kaelthas posted: »

    Oh, you should have said it from the beginning. Your logic of the whole "I can get whatever option I want, even if it doesn't fit in the gam

  • I really appreciate your rational points, and non-circular additions Poogers. :)

    I actually thought Catwoman seemed shoehorned into this story for the purposes of having her romance Bruce or further her romance with Bruce. For me, it didn't feel like she had a purpose or made sense in it because the reasons the writers had in place were never fleshed out. Just as I believe more time should have been spent on a few other characters, I believe to avoid that impression ( beyond the camp of ' we just want to romance Catwoman ), more time should have been given to the background between Catwoman and Riddler. By that I don't mean a throw away line, but a lot more than a tacked on assault on Tiffany in the villain portion. I would've loved to have seen more anger towards Waller for what the Agency did, and perhaps a breakup with Batman if he decided to mentor Tiffany.

    I'd argue that Harley would have made sense for the story, but not as a 'real' romantic path. I think the story would've supported her showing just how manipulative she could be in gaining Bruce's sympathy, maybe affections, then trying to use it for her own means as she does with John. Both Bruce Wayne and John Doe are damaged, fragile men behind different masks. A path like that would've certainly hardened Batman up to a familiar stoic persona regarding flirting femme fatales. The end of the romantic path could've been the bridge just as easily.

    For the story being told, could John x Bruce have fit? Easily, but only in tragedy. In either path, John Doe could've been exposed to the formula to dash any further development of that and leave Joker as formidable as Riddler, ensure the asylum was the only solution or death which this Bruce would not condone, and square up any continence into Season 3 as regardless of whether someone went with the villain path, vigilante path, or romanced either path -- it'd only alter a couple lines of dialogue and leave absolutely no hope of progression.

    Poogers555 posted: »

    Catwoman is sane and doesnt kill people though, the most she does it steal and has shown that she still has good in her. Harley does not.

  • Thats like opinionated though.

    To you a Batman being a janitor is exaggerated and unwanted, and maybe to him a Batman and Joker relationship is something he finds exaggerated and unwanted. Also Strawman Fallacy doesnt really apply to what you are claiming he is doing. Its more of a comparison. To kinda re-say what he said without it going "overly exaggerated" thus seeming "straw man."

    Say instead of the whole janitor Bruce, lets say the player wants a romantic relationship with Waller. I mean hey, Ive been loyal to her the whole game! I really like her character! I really hope they add a Waller romance! So now that question is, should they? What Kae was saying is that sure, they can do it if they want to, a John and Bruce romance, but it is going to add more time and effort. Like it or not, just because they are using the same actors, doesnt mean itll be cheaper to make. They still need to animate, as well as write it into the story. Like they already have Waller as a character, but they would still need to write and animate my Waller romance if I wanted one. And this was the point he was saying, adding in a Bruce X John relationship would take more time, effort, and resources to implement, just like a Bruce X Waller relationship would. And in the long run, it would probably be a very small percent who do go after it. I know you keep saying JokerXBatman is a "popular" ship, but I would need to see some numbers on that. I mean 1,000 people is a large number, but thats only 1% of 100k Batman readers. (not exact numbers, but it is just an example I am giving, Im sure there are more than 1k people who ship Batman and Joker)

    "Why? Because I'm proving your logic has a double standard? What do you want me to refute about your argument then? The deal is not with

  • KaelthasKaelthas Banned
    edited April 2018

    Then quit with the whole "If you don't like the option, don't pick it", you're literally telling people they can't have an opinion about certain topic because they can just "ignore it", you're claiming it wouldn't affect them but I explained why YOU'RE WRONG in that.

    Nobody here might be trying to impose John and Bruce (Though I would call imposing the fact that there were 10 posts about John x Bruce, a guy creating 3 accounts to spam in the Meme thread things about John and Bruce, and then people claiming as a fact that Bruce loves John based on a single dialogue option in which he talks about how he's hurt by John actions, but whatever), but you're sure as hell telling people they can't even have an opinion against John x Bruce because they won't pick that option, and that is not a very nice thing to do.

    "Oh, you should have said it from the beginning. Your logic of the whole "I can get whatever option I want, even if it doesn't fit in the ga

  • edited April 2018

    I may come across as harsh, but Everyone, please keep to the rules.
    **3. If you don't like the romantic interpretations of John and Bruce relationship, then please don't bash/troll others who do in this thread. Try to keep things civil between all, or avoid this thread entirely, thank you. **

    And also to keep the discussion civil.

    I notice some who came into the thread bashing others are sort of ignoring it, and possibly trying to derail the thread. It is our interpretations but in no way are we trying to force telltale into adding the option. Nor do you see any of us bashing any other ships. If this thread isn't to your liking then please don't continue to argue with others about it, this thread was specifically made for fans that DO like the intrepetation of the relationship and wish to have a place to discuss it. I don't know why seeing the thread suddenly warranted such ruckus from others and by particularly this thread, after all this is just a thread, its not us trying to force Telltale Into anything.

    Thank you.

  • Alright then, let's put it this way. Since you seemingly want this Janitor Bruce (or not, I don't really care), if Telltale did put that in the game as an option, I would still buy it, but I probably wouldn't choose to go down that path, because yes, it's too AU for me, like I wouldn't choose a Batman that was a fairy, or an alien, or a dinosaur. There's just no desire for me to be interested in that as of right now, but who knows? Look at Hong Kong Phooey, he was a janitor, but he was also hero... of sorts.

    Besides the live movies and the 60s TV show, this has been my first actual Batman experience, and I liked it. The way the story was written, as the player, I found John endearing, because he wasn't just another Joker, he was a pre-Joker who was trying to find himself. I knew what he could become, so I took responsibility to steer him away from that, to take him under my wing so to speak, to give him that friend he wanted. I'm not a typical BatJokes shipper, because I wasn't into Batman that much, but Telltale did something totally different, and I liked it, and now I want to delve into other Batman media.

    Kaelthas posted: »

    You can't tell me Janitor Batman would not be a good option based solely in the fact that you don't find it interesting, besides, why don't

  • I see you're very persistent here, and things are never going to reach an agreement, so for the sake of the intended discussion of this thread, can you take your anti-batjokes elsewhere? Hell, create an "Anti-Batjokes" thread for all we care lol. Just leave us with a space where we can discuss the romance-like undertones of there relationship in a positive way without getting attacked ~ PLEASE AND THANK YOU.

    Kaelthas posted: »

    Then quit with the whole "If you don't like the option, don't pick it", you're literally telling people they can't have an opinion about cer

  • edited April 2018

    I'm not sure why we're at the topic of if there should be a choice to romance John or not again. Idk if you guys noticed but the game ended lol. As far as I understand the topic here is to discuss our interpretation of what DID happen. So why are we even arguing about if there should be a choice for romance?

  • I know you wanted this thread to be a safe space for you John fans, I respect that, you can have it, I personally don't care who you guys ship, in fact I like that you're at least enthusiastic about it.

    What you can't have is a guy insulting everyone who disagrees with John x Bruce and more people saying we are not allowed to have an opinion if we are against John x Bruce.
    This might be your safe place to love John x Bruce, but not your safe place to bash everyone who doesn't.

    Saiyamon posted: »

    I may come across as harsh, but Everyone, please keep to the rules. **3. If you don't like the romantic interpretations of John and Bruce

  • Exactly. We are here to discuss the interpretation of what already happened. The people here starting arguments and steering things off topic are just trying to get this thread closed down.

    Avelyn posted: »

    I'm not sure why we're at the topic of if there should be a choice to romance John or not again. Idk if you guys noticed but the game ended

  • Just to add on to that more. It actually very much would effect people who dont want a John x Bruce romance. Its just how Telltale works. I really did not want a Rhys x Sasha romance in Tales from the Borderlands but the game basically forces you. Yes you can "not pick it" but even if you dont pick that option almost nothing changes and the game pretty much still depicts that you are after a relationship with Sasha, even if you said no to it earlier.

    Kaelthas posted: »

    Then quit with the whole "If you don't like the option, don't pick it", you're literally telling people they can't have an opinion about cer

  • I'm sorry if you felt like some of us were bashing you for not agreeing with the John x Bruce ship. Everyone is allowed to have there own opinion, and there own interpretations on a relationship between two characters in a choice-based game.

    If you dislike the interpretation that John and Bruce have deeper feelings for one another than that's completely fine. You're allowed to think that way. As are the people who think there is something there. And I'm glad you respect that we just want a place to talk about this side of things.

    Now I hope we can drop everything and continue on with our lives lol.

    Kaelthas posted: »

    I know you wanted this thread to be a safe space for you John fans, I respect that, you can have it, I personally don't care who you guys sh

  • edited April 2018

    Thank you, I respect your opinion. Apologises if I come across as harsh, but in no way have I seen anyone in the beginning, bash anyone as of yet in this thread. Nor are we arguing against your opinion. The most I seen were others staying on topic until one that came in that was strongly against it.

    (This is in general) If you or anyone wish to stay here and discuss it, then please do so in a civil manner instead of arguing with others, try to keep on topic or avoid the thread entirely, because at the end of the day; the game has already ended and this is just a discussion between fans. Not a demand towards TellTale.

    ::EDIT::
    But thank you for being nice when explaining your reason, I respect your opinion for not liking this pairing. I'm sorry if we have cause you any distress.

    Lets all please try to stay on topic, thank you.

    Kaelthas posted: »

    I know you wanted this thread to be a safe space for you John fans, I respect that, you can have it, I personally don't care who you guys sh

  • ANYWAY if we get back onto the actual topic, which version did you guys find more romantic? The Vigilante or Villain? I personally loved the Villain fight.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=9F2WOtMqqRU&t=2596s

    (starts at 46:23)

    I mean yeah the obvious "you broke my heart" and "if you ever loved me" but I also loved the line "I'm the villain of your dreams", it sounded almost like "I'm the man of your dreams". The voice acting is so emotional and good, Anthony really does a fantastic job. And while they were fighting John's "Why so shy Brucie? Pucker up!" line was great.

  • The vigilante path had a lot of really good moments between the two, but I have to say the Villian path was just so intriguing. It really creates more depth to there relationship and highlights some of what the comics are about. The fact that if Joker can't have Bruce as a friend, he wants to be his greatest enemy because he can never get enough of him. He can't live in a world where he's not involved with Batman/Bruce in some way. Very bitter sweet. And Telltale did such a great job with there interactions. Voice acting was just perfect.

  • The Villain ending was definitely more dynamic in terms of actually addressing their relationship, as the saying goes, "you don't know you've lost it until it's gone", and I do love the Villain ending, but I also hate it because of what John had become. It's why I trusted John in episode 4, because I wanted him to be a better person. And he did... to a point, which made the Vigilante ending just as sad, because it felt like I'd failed him. The Vigilante ending doesn't delve that much into their relationship, because John was content with being at Bruce's side, and so as of then, he felt no need to potentially push it further, until he actually confesses as he's looking at the photographs. I like the potential there to be at least friends when Bruce visits him, and heck... I've read some fics about Bruce's visits, and some of them are hella cute.

  • That reminds me! Man, that good ending in Vigilante was so sweet. I love how he has a picture of him and Bruce, and they seem to be closer on that final picture than when it was taken. And when Bruce comes to visit and John smiles it's really one of the most heartwarming things ever. I wonder if they pinky swore through the opening in the door.

    As for Villain, I'm loving how much pink the design has. Especially the eyeshadow, it's very gorgeous and I don't think I remember any other Joker wearing pink eyeshadow before. Usually it's black, purple or blue. Also one of Joker's henchmen has a rainbow gun.

  • edited April 2018

    Actually, looking back, I noticed that at least 3 of them had rainbow guns. I didn't pay attention too much to the others, which are purely just heavily coloured themed, like that typical clown/carnival look. But yes, the pink eyeshadow looks gorgeous on him. His whole look is villain material, whereas Vigilante Joker looks like the lovable trash son (I read someone called him a raccoon, and I understand why).

  • I personally found the Villain one to be a little more romantic, LOL, and yea especially the Pucker up line, that killed me

    Avelyn posted: »

    ANYWAY if we get back onto the actual topic, which version did you guys find more romantic? The Vigilante or Villain? I personally loved the

  • I do actually have a question. Does anyone know where the "With me?" option comes into play, as in, when does it find its place when 'John will remember that'? I don't recall ever seeing a difference in picking that option, or another option, apart from the conversation obviously going differently there. It was never brought up to my knowledge. Unless you have to stack choices in order for something to happen? For example, I picked the "With me?" option, but I didn't pick the "We're good friends" that triggers the man-crush conversation, nor did I pick the "Be yourself" in the cafe scene. I feel that these are what pushes the relationship more, as opposed to not saying them.

    Speaking of the cafe scene, while I didn't pick the "Be yourself" option in my original playthrough, I do love that scene, all the way down to Bruce's body language and expressions:

  • "You broke my heart" does not sound brotherly, or friendly, or... whatever. That's 100% love. And I'm not blind to looking at both sides when I looked at things, but with that... there isn't another side.

    I'll chime in. I had actually pressed that option ironically, as a sort of brotherly "no homo" joke.
    Clearly that wasn't how Bruce's tone made it out to be but I'm perfectly fine with that.

    Love your post though, good work :smile:

    Bandicoot88 posted: »

    There is a thread already thick with discussion on their relationship since episode 5, but if this thread is to serve a slightly different p

  • This is refreshing to read, that you didn't intend/see it that way, but didn't see the problem either. Telltale options sometimes are a bit vague, saying things differently to how we thought. I thought it was pretty clear, but I can't hate if you genuinely just didn't see it like that. And thanks! :smile:

    Cocoa2736 posted: »

    "You broke my heart" does not sound brotherly, or friendly, or... whatever. That's 100% love. And I'm not blind to looking at both sides whe

  • I understood it was basically the shipping option but I always interpreted the relationship between John and Bruce as being more close friends who casually flirt with each other as a joke, or at least that's how my Bruce took John's affection. If the dialogue comes off more romantic than I anticipated I don't mind it's just that's not exactly how I'm roleplaying as Bruce.

    I do still support the ship though in a way :smile:

    Bandicoot88 posted: »

    This is refreshing to read, that you didn't intend/see it that way, but didn't see the problem either. Telltale options sometimes are a bit

  • Anything can be an innuendo then. Not everything has a sexual or flirtatious meaning.
    The only "Sexual" meaning is "pucker up"
    "I'm on top and Stop me" didn't give off any sort of innuendos.

    Bandicoot88 posted: »

    My interpretation is different from yours, so as the game stands as a whole, if you saw differently to me, I'm not gonna argue with that. It

  • Whoa this thread escalated! 70 new posts!

  • Amazing dialogue in their final scene for sure!

    Avelyn posted: »

    ANYWAY if we get back onto the actual topic, which version did you guys find more romantic? The Vigilante or Villain? I personally loved the

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