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Morgan Le fay?

DoomduckDoomduck
edited November 2010 in Tales of Monkey Island
Did you guys know that there is a person named Morgan Le Fay..?
http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_le_Fay
Morgan Leflay's name is obiously based this person..

Just wondering if this is something that was not known, sorry if this is common knowledge.. Did a quick search but it said "Le" and "fay" were both to short or something so it only searched on "Morgan"

:o:confused:

EDIT: Sorry, didn't realize i linked the Norwegian wiki page xD
There is a link to the english one below..

Comments

  • Jace TaranJace Taran
    edited September 2009
    I got the connection myself, but then I've read some of the different versions of the Arthur legend (took a medieval British lit class in college). Morgan was a sorceress.

    The English wiki on Morgan has more info on her: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_le_Fay

    Incidentally, there is also a character on Stargate named Morgan La Fay (meant to be the same character; they essentially retconned Morgan into an alien ascended being).
  • ShmehShmeh
    edited September 2009
    Jace Taran wrote: »
    Incidentally, there is also a character on Stargate named Morgan La Fay (meant to be the same character; they essentially retconned Morgan into an alien ascended being).

    I had recognised the reference from the paper in Ch.1 (in fact I originally read it as Fay) but could not remember where I had heard it before. When looking at the Wikipedia link posted in an earlier thread, I knew I had heard the name from something referencing the Arthurian legend, rather than the legend itself. I'm sure Stargate is where I had heard it.
  • nikasaurnikasaur Telltale Alumni
    edited September 2009
    Le Marquis de Singe can also be considered a play off the Marquis de Sade + Singe, meaning "monkey" in French. A lot of the names come 'round full circle, they're catchy in that right.
  • NovotnusNovotnus
    edited September 2009
    De Sade wasn't even half bad as de Singe - de Sade was just a writer and self proclaimed philosopher with sick imagination and twisted view on estetics (but his books lacks realism - no man can survive such things - I know, I've read them).
  • Olaus PetrusOlaus Petrus
    edited September 2009
    Jace Taran wrote: »
    I got the connection myself, but then I've read some of the different versions of the Arthur legend (took a medieval British lit class in college). Morgan was a sorceress.

    IMO reference was quite obvious. But I just wanted to say that you don't have to study English literature to recognise the name. I would say that the legends became well known in most of the Europe during the middle ages and large number of new Arthurian stories were written also in many other European languages. Chrétien de Troyes and Wolfram von Eschenbach are probably most famous continental writers who wrote about Arthur and his knights.

    French writers certainly did contribute a lot to Morgan character, although I think that good old Geoffrey of Monmouth was first to mention her.
  • WeeblerjakeWeeblerjake
    edited September 2009
    haha, I saw the name on TV one day, and I was like... wait, what did that say?
  • Jace TaranJace Taran
    edited September 2009
    Olaus Petrus wrote: »
    IMO reference was quite obvious. But I just wanted to say that you don't have to study English literature to recognise the name. I would say that the legends became well known in most of the Europe during the middle ages and large number of new Arthurian stories were written also in many other European languages. Chrétien de Troyes and Wolfram von Eschenbach are probably most famous continental writers who wrote about Arthur and his knights.

    French writers certainly did contribute a lot to Morgan character, although I think that good old Geoffrey of Monmouth was first to mention her.

    I personally had never heard the name before my class (or perhaps it was Stargate where I heard it first). The name Morgan le Fay is nowhere near as engrained into collective culture as Merlin.
  • AsgathAsgath
    edited September 2009
    I suppose its more likely to be known by Europeans and in particular Brits of to whom it is more relevant historically. I say historically in the broadest terms possible of course.
    In anycase, I'm fairly suprised at the number of people who didn't recognise the name.
  • GBTWGBTW
    edited September 2009
    So she's Fata Morgana in italian.
    Without the L, of course.
    :)
  • SpadgeSpadge
    edited September 2009
    In my motherland they call her Morgana. I probably wouldn't have recodnised the name, but due to my deep Farscape love, I watched season 9 and 10 of Stargate (Erun & Crichton RULE!). So yeah, I made the connection pretty easy.
  • Olaus PetrusOlaus Petrus
    edited September 2009
    Asgath wrote: »
    I suppose its more likely to be known by Europeans and in particular Brits of to whom it is more relevant historically. I say historically in the broadest terms possible of course.
    In anycase, I'm fairly suprised at the number of people who didn't recognise the name.

    Arthurian legends are still pretty much living culture. 19th century romanticism took a lot of influences from the medieval literature and after that fantasy authors continued the tradition, not only in Europe, but also in America.

    I haven't read much Marion Zimmer Bradley, but I have heard that she wrote some books from the perspective of Morgan Le Fay. But personally I can recommend Bernard Cornwell's "The Warlord Chronicles", which tells more "historical" version of Arthurian legend.
  • MarzhinMarzhin
    edited September 2009
    GBTW wrote: »
    So she's Fata Morgana in italian.
    Without the L, of course.
    :)

    And Fata Morgana is also the name of a mirage at sea...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fata_Morgana_%28mirage%29
  • JazzyJazzy
    edited September 2009
    Jace Taran wrote: »
    I personally had never heard the name before my class (or perhaps it was Stargate where I heard it first). The name Morgan le Fay is nowhere near as engrained into collective culture as Merlin.

    Really? Morgana (as she is also known as) and Merlin have always seemed to be synonymous with one another to me, since they seemed designed to oppose one another (Morgana was also I believe meant to have studied under Merlin, possibly even literally), and Morgan le Fay is usually the major bad guy to the Round Table. Must be a cultural thing, or maybe I know too much to be objective, though considering that many people don't even know who Churchill was these days I'm not really surprised. :(

    Fun Fact: In the very original version of the Arthurian legends, before there was even a Lancelot created and when Arthur was actually still a capable character Morgana was not a bad guy and was actually a good character who helped him. She was turned into an incestuous half-sister bad guy later with the addition of characters like Lancelot and the weakening of the Arthur character.
  • FronzelFronzel
    edited September 2009
    Jazzy wrote: »
    She was turned into an incestuous half-sister bad guy later with the addition of characters like Lancelot and the weakening of the Arthur character.

    In other words, when the French got a hold of the story.
  • JazzyJazzy
    edited September 2009
    Fronzel wrote: »
    In other words, when the French got a hold of the story.

    I was trying to avoid being specific, but yes, it would be about that time... ;)
  • Rather DashingRather Dashing
    edited September 2009
    Don't be too harsh on us Americans. We have terrible schools, after all. I had to go fairly well out of my way to learn much of Arthurian legend beyond Disney's animated film from the 1960s.
  • MolokovMolokov
    edited September 2009
    When I found out the pirate hunter's name was Morgan leFlay in episode one.... I figured it was probably a woman despite the characters using a male pronoun.

    After all, Morgan LeFay is pretty much the villian in Arthurian Legend (Mordred notwithstanding).

    So when there was all this wonderful speculation between Eps 1 and 2 as in "who is this woman who is holding Guybrush at swordpoint????" I was thinking (but didn't post) that it was probably the pirate hunter Morgan leFlay.... but everyone else seemed convinced it had to be one of the old MI chararacters returning (Kate, Carla) so it was still interesting to see the debate rage on.
  • Anne26Anne26
    edited October 2010
    does this mean that margan le flay is someones half sister? just wondering if they are hinting at something with using this name.
  • mgrantmgrant
    edited October 2010
    (incoming Celtic/Medieval nerd mode)

    Actually, Morgan Le Fay (literally meaning "the fae" or fairy) was based on an earlier Celtic figure by the name of Morrigan. Morrigan, also known as the Washer at The Ford, was a goddess of battle and often appeared in the form of a raven. In The Táin Bó Cúailnge she lands on the shoulder of Cú Chulainn to signify his death. The battle goddess association is quite fitting for a combat focused character such as Morgan Le FLay.

    Also, as already stated, it's not until the French Vulgate cycle and Chetrien de Troyes Arthurian legends (coming much later than the original tales) that Morgan Le Fay becomes a villainous character. Initially, she's an ambiguous figure who, like the Lady of the Lake, sometimes aided Arthur's court. She was altered by the later French myths to provide a foil for Launcelot. The same thing happened to Gawain, who had previously been Arthur's favorite in the court.
  • Anne26Anne26
    edited October 2010
    mgrant wrote: »
    Actually (incoming celtic/Medieval nerd mode) Morgan Le Fay (literaly meaning "the fae" or fairy in french) was based on an earlier celtic figure by the name of Morrigan. Morrigan, also known as the Washer at The Ford, was a goddess of battle, often appearing as a raven. In The Táin Bó Cúailnge she lands on the shoulder of Cuchullain to signify his death. The battle goddess association is quite fitting for a combat focused character such as Morgan.

    Also, as already stated, it's not until the later Vulgate cycle and Chetrien de Troyes Arthurian legends (coming much later than the original tales) that Morgan Le Fay becomes a villainous character. Initially, she's an ambiguous figure who, like the Lady of the Lake, sometimes aided Arthur's court. She was altered by the later French myths to provide a foil for Launcelot.

    this still doesnt mean they wouldnt have been hinting at something.
  • mgrantmgrant
    edited October 2010
    Perhaps, perhaps not. The Vulgate Morgan Le Fay is the most well known variant of the figure, I'll readily admit that, but I don't know if the half-sister bit is really the most memorable bit of the character. Morgan's been the mystical Arthurian antagonist for most of her modern culture appearances.

    Morgan's sister, Morgause (Arthur's other half sister) is the incestuous one. She's the one that slept with Arthur and begat Mordred.
  • Anne26Anne26
    edited October 2010
    mgrant wrote: »
    Perhaps, perhaps not. The Vulgate Morgan Le Fay is the most well known variant of the figure, I'll readily admit that, but I don't know if the half-sister bit is really the most memorable bit of the character. Morgan's been the mystical Arthurian antagonist for most of her modern culture appearances.

    Morgan's sister, Morgause (Arthur's other half sister) is the incestuous one. She's the one that slept with Arthur and begat Mordred.

    It could be just what you said, but could just as easily be more to it as well. I guess only time will tell (hopefully they will make another game soon;)). I didn't even realise morgana from Camelot was called Morgan Le fay, until today. When i heard the name I recognized it instantly, and it just made me wonder why they used that name. Plus they left it open for her character to have big role in the next one i think, so maybe there is more for us to learn about her character. Hmm...maybe the vodo lady is called Morgause LOL!!
  • caeskacaeska
    edited October 2010
    I got the reference from Arthurian legend the second I saw the flyer in chapter one. And being a big fan of Stargate I immediately recognized it of course. Morgan Le Fay plays a big part in season 10, assisting the main characters in finding Merlin which enables them to complete the weapon capable of destroying ascended beings.
    She also makes an appearance in the first movie "The Ark of Truth".
  • FitzoliverJFitzoliverJ
    edited October 2010
    Anne26 wrote: »
    Hmm...maybe the vodo lady is called Morgause LOL!!

    OK, so that makes Morgan, Elaine, *and* the Voodoo Lady all sisters... That Captain Marley sure got around.
  • Anne26Anne26
    edited October 2010
    FitzoliverJ wrote: »
    OK, so that makes Morgan, Elaine, *and* the Voodoo Lady all sisters... That Captain Marley sure got around.

    yeah looks that way;) LOL
  • mgrantmgrant
    edited October 2010
    FitzoliverJ wrote: »
    OK, so that makes Morgan, Elaine, *and* the Voodoo Lady all sisters... That Captain Marley sure got around.

    So did Uther Pendragon. Hey-o!


    But in all seriousness that would get a little weird, particularly if Guybrush is the "Arthur" figure in all this.
  • dumpling321dumpling321
    edited October 2010
    Molokov wrote: »
    When I found out the pirate hunter's name was Morgan leFlay in episode one.... I figured it was probably a woman despite the characters using a male pronoun.

    After all, Morgan LeFay is pretty much the villian in Arthurian Legend (Mordred notwithstanding).

    So when there was all this wonderful speculation between Eps 1 and 2 as in "who is this woman who is holding Guybrush at swordpoint????" I was thinking (but didn't post) that it was probably the pirate hunter Morgan leFlay.... but everyone else seemed convinced it had to be one of the old MI chararacters returning (Kate, Carla) so it was still interesting to see the debate rage on.

    personally i knew it was morgan leflay at the end... but i seriously thought it was kate capsize with a change in name...
  • Olaus PetrusOlaus Petrus
    edited October 2010
    mgrant wrote: »
    (incoming Celtic/Medieval nerd mode)

    Actually, Morgan Le Fay (literally meaning "the fae" or fairy) was based on an earlier Celtic figure by the name of Morrigan. Morrigan, also known as the Washer at The Ford, was a goddess of battle and often appeared in the form of a raven. In The Táin Bó Cúailnge she lands on the shoulder of Cú Chulainn to signify his death. The battle goddess association is quite fitting for a combat focused character such as Morgan Le FLay.

    I thought that Morgan is more often associated with Welsh Modron than Irish Morrigan. While Morgan and Morrigan share some similarities there are many scholars who think that they are different characters.
  • mgrantmgrant
    edited October 2010
    Olaus Petrus wrote: »
    I thought that Morgan is more often associated with Welsh Modron than Irish Morrigan. While Morgan and Morrigan share some similarities there are many scholars who think that they are different characters.

    That's still debatable actually. While you're right, there is a speculated association with Modron, there's a question if Morgan Le Fay draws on both the traditions of Modron and Morrigan or simply bears similarities by chance. Given there are very early Arthurian myths coming out of both Wales and Ireland, it's a little hard to be sure what take on the Morgan Le Fay figure of the later myths is accurate

    It's actually quite an interesting dialog, similar to the discussion of The Celtic aspects of Gawain, Merlin and Guinevere (or, as Geoffrey of Monmouth calls here, Gwehyvar).

    Why, yes I am a huge fan of the Arthurian myths, why do you ask?
  • Olaus PetrusOlaus Petrus
    edited October 2010
    mgrant wrote: »
    That's still debatable actually. While you're right, there is a speculated association with Modron, there's a question if Morgan Le Fay draws on both the traditions of Modron and Morrigan or simply bears similarities by chance. Given there are very early Arthurian myths coming out of both Wales and Ireland, it's a little hard to be sure what take on the Morgan Le Fay figure of the later myths is accurate

    It's actually quite an interesting dialog, similar to the discussion of The Celtic aspects of Gawain, Merlin and Guinevere (or, as Geoffrey of Monmouth calls here, Gwehyvar).

    Why, yes I am a huge fan of the Arthurian myths, why do you ask?

    True the question remains open. It's hard to say anything certain about the connections, because much of the Irish and Welsh mythology has been written down in rather late date and despite the fact that language of the stories is usually older than writing date some of the material might have changed during the centuries. Modron's connection to Urien and Ywain comes from the Welsh Triads and it's hard to say when the connection was first invented.
  • mgrantmgrant
    edited November 2010
    Olaus Petrus wrote: »
    True the question remains open. It's hard to say anything certain about the connections, because much of the Irish and Welsh mythology has been written down in rather late date and despite the fact that language of the stories is usually older than writing date some of the material might have changed during the centuries. Modron's connection to Urien and Ywain comes from the Welsh Triads and it's hard to say when the connection was first invented.

    That's one of the problems of working with Celtic and Norse literature, I'm afraid. Much of the mythology and folklore has been lost so any argument made about their connections or influences on later works functions partially on assumptions.

    Even when there are strongly implied links (like Gwehyvar having been derived from the name of Mæve's daughter) are based on later works which, given both the tendency for the codex writers to edit what they were transcribing and the lateness of finished texts, it's never definite.
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