Did Batman cause more mayhem than what Alfred really thinks to believe?

At the end of season 2, we learn that Alfred no longer has the stomach to continue Bruce's war on crime. In addition, he believes that Batman creates the evil he wants to destroy. Like, if anyone comes into contact with the Wayne's or Alfred himself, their lives will be touched by emotional anguish. Is this true? Or if not, what else would you say otherwise?


  • edited May 2018

    It's quite true, but it is complicated. Batman does a lot of good but there is no denying that people who get close to him get hurt. Take Lucius and Tiffany for example. Lucius was killed because he worked closely with Batman which then lead to the previously innocent Tiffany to have blood on her hands. Then there's John. Not only did Batman help create the Joker but John does suffer. I love that one line from the villain version when Bruce says he's not a killer, then John replies "I wasn't a killer either, Bruce... until I met you"

  • I agree its complicated. Its true that Batman creates the more evil, the biggest were Two-Face and Joker, but he is the only one who can stop them. When it comes to his allies, its true they get hurt which lead to further harm. I understand where Alfred was coming from. I hope with season 3, Bruce might be able to prove Alfred that it isn't true.

  • It's true to a point. Batman didn't create Riddler, but neither did he attempt to 'save' him in the same way that he did John Doe. He didn't create Penguin, but he also utterly fails to help him. Harvey had a mental issue that Bruce was unaware of until much later, but Batman knew he was walking into a trap.

    The Batman persona does in a way leave Bruce Wayne disconnected from his world. He no longer knows how to navigate it as a person. He doesn't attempt to contact Penguin after their first meeting although it's apparent that his friend is deeply troubled, and they have a ton to catch up on. If he'd made that effort, if they'd discovered the truth together rather than separately would it have been more of a bonding moment where they both felt deeply betrayed by Thomas Wayne? We don't know.

    The same could be said of John Doe. If we'd been honest with him, and spent more time concerned about him then who knows. The most betrayed I heard John sound was when we went back to their hideout and asked about Harley's whereabouts and he thought for a moment we'd came to check on him. While I did as a player, Bruce didn't as a character. It didn't even occur to him although John had a black eye and the place had been raided by Waller's men.

    So is Batman the creator of more evil? No, but that persona does prevent a more human approach to many situations. I'm really hoping for a chance to dive into Bruce's mental status in the next game, but we'll have to wait and see who the characters are.

  • Not for nothing, but if Batman didn't exist, Harvey would be dead, rather than his becoming Two-Face... So, I am not sure if "allowing to be crazy and (possibly) horribly scarred" as opposed to "murdered" should be laid entirely at his feet...

    Batman is responsible for the creation of Joker, and his destruction. As well as the counteractions by those he thwarts... But is it worse that Alfred got kidnapped, Lucius dies, Gordon is disillusioned, and Tiffany becomes a murderer, if the only other outcome is that they are all dead and Lady Arkham and Riddler(and the Pact) are fighting each other for control of the Gotham?

  • With great power comes great responsibility,and consequences

  • I think If there is one thing this game/series shows you arguably more than any of the others in the telltale franchise it is this.

    All actions have consequences
    All decisions have repercussions.

    End of Episode 1 season 1 you chose the kind of Batman you want to be with your actions towards Falcone.

    Do you arrest him and show that you respect the law and are able to show restraint?
    Do you brutalise him showing that you don't give a damn for the law and are a vicious vigilante?

    End of Episode 2 season 1 you chose between personal feelings and professional obligation

    Do you save Catwoman instead of Harvey because you have feelings for her (granted there are other options you can chose from when she asks you at the start of episode 3 why you saved her but I personally think the only real option that is 'legit' is you did it because you had feelings for her otherwise why else would you do it?)
    Do you put your personal feelings aside and save Harvey because he is the best hope Gotham has of becoming a better city.

    I could go through the whole two seasons pointing out all of the choices you have to make and what they represent but these are just examples and the way in which I personally view them.

    An no matter what choice/decision you make there is a consequence there is a repercussion.

    For example.

    You arrest Falcone Gotham starts to see you in a positive light
    You brutalise Falcone Gotham fears you

    You save Catwoman - You and her get closer (arguably depending on the reason you give her as to why you did it) while Harvey considers you no better than the Children Of Arkham a clear demonstration of this is given if you decide to go after Harvey at the start of episode 3 instead of Montoya doesn't matter what response you give he has a go at you.

    You save Harvey - He supports you even more than he did before the debate while Catwoman i think loses a little bit of trust in you.

    So as far as trying to answer the question does Batman create the evil he wants to destroy?

    I would have to say the answer is both yes and no.

    Yes there are times when Batman's actions/decisions lead to things becoming worse.

    A prime example of this is if you don't trust John in the next episode he destroys half of Gotham.

    However as far as my (Good Batman) is concerned the reason why he doesn't/can't trust John isn't because he doesn't want to it is because John has broken the Batman code his one rule 'no killing' and he told John when he met him in the ally to get the laptop

    "I serve the greater good John. I can't let my feelings get in the way of that. If someone i care about is on the wrong side. That makes them my enemy."

    Roughly translated what he means is somebody break the law they are a criminal and he must take them in especially if they break his one rule like Harvey and Tiffany and John did.

    He is a man of principle he is dedicated to the job as such he can't let his personal feelings get in the way of him doing his job and he doesn't.

    Harvey was his friend but he still took him down after he destroyed that city block

    Tiffany was practically family but he still tried to arrest her when he discovered she killed Riddler

    John was a friend but he still had to take him in when he found him surrounded by all of those dead agents.

    (personally while you can have reasons for trusting John I don't see how anybody can think he killed all of those agents in self defence)

    An because Bruce didn't trust him John felt betrayed and was hurt and he wanted to hurt Bruce for hurting him and what is one of the best ways of hurting Bruce by hurting the people and things he loves/cares about like Gotham.

    As for the answer being no.

    The reason why I say this is because even doing good things making the 'right' choices can still have bad repercussions/consequences.

    For example.

    if you save Harvey instead of Catwoman. Harvey still becomes 'two face' because of the drugs he is injected with and he turns against Bruce/Batman in the end and Bruce/Batman has no choice but to stop Harvey either at the end of episode 4 or the start of episode 5.

    An even in stopping him you have choices to make which have repercussions.

    Because depending on what you say as Bruce or Batman you either help Harvey or help Two-Face to be the dominant side of Harvey's split personality.

    So sometimes bad things happen no matter what you do.

    Like the old saying goes "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."

    An as we will see in season 3 even the decision to give up Batman or not give up Batman is going to have consequences and repercussions whether those repercussions/consequences are good or bad we will have to wait and see.

    However if you refused to give up Batman at the end of season 2 you will have already seen one of the consequences of that decision and that being that Alfred leaves (and if you refused to hear his reasons for leaving and simply told him to go another consequence of this action is that he won't be back in season 3)

    So that is an immediate consequence/repercussion of a decision you have made but what are the longer lasting consequences/repercussions of Batman/Bruce giving up Alfred going to be?

    It could be argued that Alfred was Batman/Bruce Wayne's moral compass the rudder that steered the ship.

    Now that Bruce Wayne doesn't have his moral compass is he going to change the way he does things?

    Where as before he wouldn't brutalise a criminal is he going to start doing that?

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