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:: [Spoilers] Chapter 4: Trial & Execution ::

yoshiwamyoshiwam
edited November 2009 in Tales of Monkey Island
hey everybody!

I've skimmed through some reviews, opinions and first impressions of people on this site concerning the fourth chapter of Tales. Mostly people are very content with the revelations the fourth chapter brought forth, which is an awesome job, TellTale!

With that said, I'd still like to share some issues that bother me, concerning the Trial & Execution of Guybrush Threepwood. To be quite honest and blunt, I was a little disappointed with some fundamental aspects of this chapter.

Inventory
Every piece of inventory seemed like a very random piece of rubbish ^^;; why not come up with everyday items like scissors, cutlery, bubblegum, cork, needles, mallet, chisel, cheese (most of CMI's items, except for the sudden random-spam inside the snake) and use these in a smart, clever and logical puzzle. What's with the leg-shaped lamp, the glass eyeball with superpowers, 6 different warm liquids, envelopped voodoo-summons. They seem like a very cheap way to integrate inventory in puzzle set-ups (less is more, basic items make puzzle more clever). And really, Tales really has an overkill on coupons, maps and the usage of the hook for lockpicking purposes.

Stan
Another issue is Stan. Stan is by far my all time favorite character from the Monkey Island series! I was secretly hoping he'd turn up as a lawyer in court with his awesome retorical arm-spamming and sexy voice and eyebrow movements that'd make you buy anything he'd sell! ("Welcome to the mutual of Staan ~~"). Alas, with his voice actor and goofy and chubby appearance, I experienced his character as very annoying and unlikeable. With the original Stan from MI2 and CMI, I felt bad for him when I locked him in a coffin or gave him a sad face with the death certificate just to solve a puzzle (which is superfunny and comically charming), but now he just didn't do it for me, I couldn't care less what happened to Stan.

Drama
That simply didn't add up.. It seems very inconsistent to my previous Monkey Island experiences. And I did -not- like angry guybrush. I wonder how this all will unfold in the series finale.

DeSinge
It seems like the Monkey Island series is developping a new stereotype. Just like Ozzie from EMI, DeSinge is a dislikeable ausländer that seeks control of a supernatural (superlative) superpower but gets smashed violently like a bug in the process (grinded to pulp like ozzie/shredded to bits like DeSinge). This isn't necessarily a bad thing. I don't know what to make of it actually.

I'm not trying to complain towards TellTale with this post! In fact, they've certainly provided several truely epic and memorable Monkey Island moments throughout the chapters! (voodoo lady tarot, face-off challenge, awesome characters like DeSinge, Morgan, Bugeye and Anemone). Also this chapter had some thrills in store for me :3 The interior of the courtroom and the SCUMM-feel at Club 41 were breathtaking!! I'm also very excited to see what will happen in chapter 5!

I just wanted to share my thoughts on chapter 4 with all you monkey-fans on the forum! I'm really curious to what you're opinions are to the points mentioned above! So please react ^^

Much love to TellTale and fans <3
yoshiwam ~
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Comments

  • MiaharpyMiaharpy
    edited October 2009
    *Reads Drama* What? You want Guybrush to act all happy that someone like Morgan died? You don't like realistic characteristics for Guybrush do you?

    If Guybrush made a joke out of Morgan's death, I would no longer be a fan of Guybrush. And people would surely say the same thing.
  • Rather DashingRather Dashing
    edited October 2009
    Miaharpy wrote: »
    *Reads Drama* What? You want Guybrush to act all happy that someone like Morgan died? You don't like realistic characteristics for Guybrush do you?
    I think they mean when
    Guybrush was pissed at the still-alive Morgan for mutilating and betraying him
    . I mean, geez, water under the bridge. :P
  • MatakuMataku
    edited October 2009
    I can actually relate to the drama part. some may say it was emotional, but i find it too cheesy, especially the end convo between Lechuck and Elaine and her final words with guybrush. Regardless whether it fits the MI world or not, it was just SOOO CHEESY!
  • MiaharpyMiaharpy
    edited October 2009
    Rather Dashing wrote: »
    I think they mean when
    Guybrush was pissed at the still-alive Morgan for mutilating and betraying him
    . I mean, geez, water under the bridge. :P

    Remember, she had a choice of taking off Guybrush's hand from the very moment she made that deal with De Singe. It's no wonder why Guybrush would have a hard time forgiving her.
  • yoshiwamyoshiwam
    edited October 2009
    Miaharpy wrote:
    You want Guybrush to act all happy that someone like Morgan died?
    I think the story shouldn't have gone this emotionally complicated to begin with.
  • MatakuMataku
    edited October 2009
    yoshiwam wrote: »
    I think the story shouldn't have gone this emotionally complicated to begin with.

    x2



    ▲▲
  • gingeralegingerale
    edited October 2009
    But the drama was the wonderful part about this episode. It had really good writing in my opinion. I loved it. It's not like Monkey Island world is only made out of fluffy clouds and funny jokes.
  • yoshiwamyoshiwam
    edited October 2009
    gingerale wrote:
    But the drama was the wonderful part about this episode. It had really good writing in my opinion. I loved it. It's not like Monkey Island world is only made out of fluffy clouds and funny jokes.
    Monkey Island without the dramatic depth and complication as described above is the Monkey Island I'm familiar with and grew attached to (SMI, MI2, CMI), which is more then fluffy clouds and funny jokes, I bet you know that too :)
  • MiaharpyMiaharpy
    edited October 2009
    yoshiwam wrote: »
    Monkey Island without the dramatic depth and complication as described above is the Monkey Island I'm familiar with and grew attached to (SMI, MI2, CMI), which is more then fluffy clouds and funny jokes, I bet you know that too :)

    Not really with Revenge, Yoshiwam.... I did laugh at the jokes, but at the ending.. Telling the truth, I was freaking out. That's what I enjoyed the most.
  • Secret FawfulSecret Fawful
    edited October 2009
    yoshiwam wrote: »
    Monkey Island without the dramatic depth and complication as described above is the Monkey Island I'm familiar with and grew attached to (SMI, MI2, CMI), which is more then fluffy clouds and funny jokes, I bet you know that too :)

    Uh, those games had a ton of emotional depth. Yu're saying it's too overcomplicated and others are saying the emotional parts were too simple and cliche. Geez, I'm starting to hate MI fans. You're such a prissy selfish needy lot! And heck I throw myself right into the lump.
  • VickyLVickyL
    edited October 2009
    yoshiwam wrote: »
    I think the story shouldn't have gone this emotionally complicated to begin with.

    Morgan's general existence seems a bit out-of-place, as far as I'm concerned. As much as I love her character, for a while she seemed too much like competition for Elaine, which makes little sense considering Guybrush's repeated efforts to win Elane over.

    That and all this "darker" stuff is really screwing with my previous experience of monkey island (except for course for the total mindfuck at the end of Revenge, when Guybrush starts removing LeChuck's limbs with the voodoo doll).
  • FuryFury
    edited October 2009
    Think of all the complaints of the atmosphere for the first 3 eps, it's not dark enough, MI2 was better blah blah blah.

    Now 4 has shown up, killed off two main characters and everyone complaining has shut up.

    I reckon 5 will do the same for everyone complaining about it not freaking them out, or there being too much drame.

    You're judging an unfinished product. Wait til the end before you condemn it, as you'll probably be proved wrong like all those "not dark enough" people.
  • MiaharpyMiaharpy
    edited October 2009
    Fury wrote: »
    Think of all the complaints of the atmosphere for the first 3 eps, it's not dark enough, MI2 was better blah blah blah.

    Now 4 has shown up, killed off two main characters and everyone complaining has shut up.

    I reckon 5 will do the same for everyone complaining about it not freaking them out, or there being too much drame.

    You're judging an unfinished product. Wait til the end before you condemn it, as you'll probably be proved wrong like all those "not dark enough" people.

    ..... I love you :D
  • VickyLVickyL
    edited October 2009
    Actually I didn't really have many complaints for the first three episodes (okay, one so-pointless-its-not-really-a-puzzle, one what-are-the-chances-of-a-bait-AND-repair-shop and one why-are-all-these-little-islands-useful-for-only-one-thing).
    And it doesn't matter what it's like when it's finished. It can never erase the cheapness of the character deaths, or the cheesy way in which they were pulled off.
  • Secret FawfulSecret Fawful
    edited October 2009
    VickyL wrote: »
    Actually I didn't really have many complaints for the first three episodes (okay, one so-pointless-its-not-really-a-puzzle, one what-are-the-chances-of-a-bait-AND-repair-shop and one why-are-all-these-little-islands-useful-for-only-one-thing).
    And it doesn't matter what it's like when it's finished. It can never erase the cheapness of the character deaths, or the cheesy way in which they were pulled off.

    Except neither of those things are as terrible as you make them sound. I'm sincerely sorry that there was any serious character development in your Monkey Island.
  • MiaharpyMiaharpy
    edited October 2009
    VickyL wrote: »
    Actually I didn't really have many complaints for the first three episodes (okay, one so-pointless-its-not-really-a-puzzle, one what-are-the-chances-of-a-bait-AND-repair-shop and one why-are-all-these-little-islands-useful-for-only-one-thing).
    And it doesn't matter what it's like when it's finished. It can never erase the cheapness of the character deaths, or the cheesy way in which they were pulled off.

    .... I don't like you... Are you really a Monkey Island fan?

    And Secret Fawful.... I love you too. :D

    But yeah... They try to make the characters seem realistic. If they don't act like it then there is no point for a good monkey island game.
  • yoshiwamyoshiwam
    edited October 2009
    Fury wrote:
    Think of all the complaints of the atmosphere for the first 3 eps, it's not dark enough, MI2 was better blah blah blah.

    Now 4 has shown up, killed off two main characters and everyone complaining has shut up.

    I reckon 5 will do the same for everyone complaining about it not freaking them out, or there being too much drame.

    You're judging an unfinished product. Wait til the end before you condemn it, as you'll probably be proved wrong like all those "not dark enough" people.

    The 'darkness'/moonlit scenes is a constant in every MI game, (Mêléé Island, Scabb, Blood, Knuttn), it was bound to pop up eventually for a chapter-or-two, as well as the fact that there are non-dark sceneries (Monkey Island, Booty/Phatt, Puerto Pollo). I was merely saying that the "drama" is something that - in my opinion - is inconsistent with my experience of the monkey island concept. This is not the only chapter with drama ofcourse, it was built up from the end of chapter 1, and it was bound to climax. It doesn't feel like Monkey Island I know
  • VickyLVickyL
    edited October 2009
    Secret Fawful wrote: »
    Except neither of those things are as terrible as you make them sound. I'm sincerely sorry that there was any serious character development in your Monkey Island.

    Oh, come on! "fun fun fun fun OMG THREE PEOPLE DIE"

    Don't get me wrong, I love Morgan's character, and how her attitude changes over the series. Especially her hints in Ch.3 that she just needs someone to be brave enough to see her for what she really is, and how her advice for the manatee is just a thinly-veiled display of her own needs. And of course, her genuine regret for her betrayal.

    It did irk me a bit when Guybrush got all pissy about it and refused to see her side of the story, but then when she told him she was trying to get his hand back, I really did feel for them both. It was everything AFTER that that got to me.
  • Secret FawfulSecret Fawful
    edited October 2009
    VickyL wrote: »
    Oh, come on! "fun fun fun fun OMG THREE PEOPLE DIE"

    Don't get me wrong, I love Morgan's character, and how her attitude changes over the series. Especially her hints in Ch.3 that she just needs someone to be brave enough to see her for what she really is, and how her advice for the manatee is just a thinly-veiled display of her own needs. And of course, her genuine regret for her betrayal.

    It did irk me a bit when Guybrush got all pissy about it and refused to see her side of the story, but then when she told him she was trying to get his hand back, I really did feel for them both. It was everything AFTER that that got to me.

    Fair enough, but treating it as a monstrous tragedy is complete nonsense. t's hardly the worst in a game ever.
  • MiaharpyMiaharpy
    edited October 2009
    yoshiwam wrote: »
    The 'darkness'/moonlit scenes is a constant in every MI game, (Mêléé Island, Scabb, Blood, Knuttn), it was bound to pop up eventually for a chapter-or-two, as well as the fact that there are non-dark sceneries (Monkey Island, Booty/Phatt, Puerto Pollo). I was merely saying that the "drama" is something that - in my opinion - is inconsistent with my experience of the monkey island concept. This is not the only chapter with drama ofcourse, it was built up from the end of chapter 1, and it was bound to climax. It doesn't feel like Monkey Island I know

    Okay, 1st game: Guybrush wants to be a pirate, next thing you know, he goes to rescue Elaine

    2nd game: Guybrush goes after treasure, not long before finding out Lechuck is after him.

    When you think about it, Tales pulled off the same thing. Guybrush goes to look for Elaine, near the end of chapter 1 Guybrush learns about the Pox.

    Not that much change in anything. The only 2 games that didn't follow the 1st two games was Curse and Escape. On Curse, Elaine turned into a gold statue in the beginning of the game. Escape, you basically just doing a chore for almost the whole game.
  • VickyLVickyL
    edited October 2009
    Secret Fawful wrote: »
    Fair enough, but treating it as a monstrous tragedy is complete nonsense. t's hardly the worst in a game ever.
    I never said it was. I still think its a sterling series, but the overwhelming praise for the latest chapter seems a little... misplaced.


    And going back to yoshiwam's original point, the stuff we're starting to pick up in the inventory DOES seem to be getting a little ridiculous. Much more challenging when you're carting around the everyday items like breath mints, or cheese.
  • yoshiwamyoshiwam
    edited October 2009
    Miaharpy wrote:
    When you think about it, Tales pulled off the same thing. Guybrush goes to look for Elaine, near the end of chapter 1 Guybrush learns about the Pox.

    Not that much change in anything. The only 2 games that didn't follow the 1st two games was Curse and Escape. On Curse, Elaine turned into a gold statue in the beginning of the game. Escape, you basically just doing a chore for almost the whole game.

    I was referring to the scene where LeChuck gave a flower to Elaine at the end of the first chapter, which was the start of the dramatic (literary ->) romantic storyline.
  • MiaharpyMiaharpy
    edited October 2009
    When you think about it... Tales probably has the best storyline.... If you look at all the other games as if they are a book or movie... It probably wouldn't be as good. With plot lines, adding character development will create mood to the story.

    I think they did pretty good with it even with the drama. Sure there is drama ever since the 1st chapter. But if you take a english class... You would realize that chapter 4 is the top of the peak of the story and chapter 5 should make the whole story fall into place. I think we should actually wait till chapter 5 comes out.
  • VickyLVickyL
    edited October 2009
    Miaharpy wrote: »
    When you think about it... Tales probably has the best storyline....

    I agree, up until the point where everyone starts dying :p
  • kevintrimkevintrim
    edited October 2009
    i do agree with OPs comment about inventory, i mean a leg shaped lamp is clever, but cmon, how many times do we pick locks with hooks?


    damn brilliant episode if i may add.
  • yoshiwamyoshiwam
    edited October 2009
    Miaharpy wrote:
    But if you take a english class...
    what's that supposed to mean?
    Miaharpy wrote:
    chapter 4 is the top of the peak of the story and chapter 5 should make the whole story fall into place. I think we should actually wait till chapter 5 comes out.

    I am well aware that chapter four is the climax of the build up tension and I know that everything will be clear at the end of the game (even though there might be some questions). I'll say it again: that, which I think does not fit the monkey island concept, has nested in the story of Tales, no matter what the story boils down to.
  • MiaharpyMiaharpy
    edited October 2009
    VickyL wrote: »
    I agree, up until the point where everyone starts dying :p

    So.... Are you saying right when the people die you start thinking it has to much drama? Well, it does add a new twist, but just remember it's still only the 4th chapter and they will have to 'revive' Guybrush and mostly Morgan will return too because Telltale would probably gain 'hate mails' from Morgan's fans. LOL
  • VickyLVickyL
    edited October 2009
    Only, as I've said before, when you kill off more than one within half a chapter.
  • MiaharpyMiaharpy
    edited October 2009
    VickyL wrote: »
    Only, as I've said before, when you kill off more than one within half a chapter.

    Do I have to point down to the number 1 rule about the Monkey Island series in my signature? XD
  • gingeralegingerale
    edited October 2009
    I guess the writing was really effective if the drama in it caused this much discussion. It's how it should be. ^^
  • VickyLVickyL
    edited October 2009
    Miaharpy wrote: »
    Do I have to point down to the number 1 rule about the Monkey Island series in my signature? XD

    Except gratuitous death scenes, surely?

    Come to think of it, there have been a fair number of deaths over the series, but they tend to be played down a LOT so you barely notice them.
  • MiaharpyMiaharpy
    edited October 2009
    Well, let's see.... Rootbeer kills ghosts...... Lechuck's limbs being ripped off.... being able to put even a dog in Guybrush's pants.... and even putting oil on someone's back to make a map?..... I have to say.... Yes.
  • VickyLVickyL
    edited October 2009
    xD The oil/skin/map thing was just weeeeeiiiird.

    And its not really the things that Guybrush carries around so much as the sheer volume of things in his pants by the end of most games. Obviously there's some sort of trans-dimensional portal in there where he keeps all his things.
  • MiaharpyMiaharpy
    edited October 2009
    XD but yeah, you shouldn't get too uncomfortable because of deaths... Remember in the first game where you can kill Guybrush? Some people did it on purpose just to see what happens. And on Curse you can actually see Guybrush dead as well. So... death shouldn't be a problem if you want to see both of those things. LOL.
  • VickyLVickyL
    edited October 2009
    Oh it's not the death. I expected Guybrush, from the title, of course. Morgan's was fine from a story-telling point of view. And there was little else that could be done about Desinge, seeing as he's a villain. But an attempt to make it darker by killing off a bunch of characters cheapens the whole experience. Any one would have been fine by itself.
  • MiaharpyMiaharpy
    edited October 2009
    VickyL wrote: »
    Oh it's not the death. I expected Guybrush, from the title, of course. Morgan's was fine from a story-telling point of view. And there was little else that could be done about Desinge, seeing as he's a villain. But an attempt to make it darker by killing off a bunch of characters cheapens the whole experience. Any one would have been fine by itself.

    Lets see.... Morgan's death causes character development for Guybrush.... Guybrush's death causes everyone to wonder what will happen in the next chapter..... De Singe's death..... Probably because he is in the way of the plot for the future :D LOL

    If the parrot counts too..... We had no idea he will appear again in the 2nd game and thought we got rid of it until end of chapter, 3rd chapter we thought we lost it, 4th chapter it appears only to be gone again... Huh.. That's kinda funny when you think about it.
  • VickyLVickyL
    edited October 2009
    I missed the parrot in this chapter. Darn.
    Best non-sentient character by far.
  • yoshiwamyoshiwam
    edited October 2009
    I've got the feeling things are moving slightly off topic...
    The darkness of killing people has been well known throughout the monkey island adventures, like the two pirates that fish LeChuck's boots out of the water and get slaughtered to (un)death, the main issue about the drama is Guybrush feelings being hurt (not as in a little pout-on-the-face, but genuinely hurt) and Elaine getting all emotional at the end. I don't think the writers did a lowsy job, en contraire! (I think the way LeChuck returned the "unholy -this-" was brütal!!) I just think Monkey Island isn't the right setting for those dramatic themes. I prefer solving puzzles whilst laughing off my fundament.
  • MiaharpyMiaharpy
    edited October 2009
    yoshiwam wrote: »
    I've got the feeling things are moving slightly off topic...
    The darkness of killing people has been well known throughout the monkey island adventures, like the two pirates that fish LeChuck's boots out of the water and get slaughtered to (un)death, the main issue about the drama is Guybrush feelings being hurt (not as in a little pout-on-the-face, but genuinely hurt) and Elaine getting all emotional at the end. I don't think the writers did a lowsy job, en contraire! (I think the way LeChuck returned is "unholy -this-" was brütal!!) I just think Monkey Island isn't the right setting for those dramatic themes. I prefer solving puzzles whilst laughing off my fundament.

    true... But when you think it, there was this one part in Revenge that wasn't funny when Guybrush was talking to Lechuck (after Lechuck's limbs been ripped off). I think Telltale was just adding more of an actual story. Still keeping humor in it, but making it emotional too. You shouldn't get upset at the game just because of what you just played in the latest chapter.
  • yoshiwamyoshiwam
    edited October 2009
    Miaharpy wrote:
    true... But when you think it, there was this one part in Revenge that wasn't funny when Guybrush was talking to Lechuck (after Lechuck's limbs been ripped off).

    The end of Revenge wasn't funny or cool in any way indeed, loads of people agree to that, CMI totally made amends for that too and resumed the trusted monkey island atmosphere. But you know that the end of MI2 is off, so you caught my drift.
    Miaharpy wrote:
    I think Telltale was just adding more of an actual story. Still keeping humor in it, but making it emotional too.
    that's what the discussion is all about ^^;;
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