Can Monkey Island pull off all this drama? [CH 4. SPOILERS]
Morgan dying, Guybrush dying, cursing each others names, Guybrush throwing a strop with LeFlay
etc etcIs Monkey Island a strong enough vehicle with developed enough characters for these kind of plotlines and emotions? Discuss
I'm still on the fence about it all myself, need another playthrough maybe
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If they had just killed off DeSinge, I would have thought he's gone for good, but since they killed Morgan and especially since they killed Guybrush, I'm thinking that in episode 5 we might see the Monkey Island version of the Afterlife. We might even get to meet Santino
I hope that De Singe is finished off for good. I mean, he's an awesome character and villain, but his demise was so satisfying. I doubt it can be topped and I think his role in the story has come to a satisfying conclusion. No need to draw out his character anymore.
Monkey Island can pull off the drama. It's too bad that Telltale can't without putting huge, glowing qualifier signs to tell us "Don't worry, the drama doesn't ACTUALLY matter!"
Yeah it looks like Guybrush Threepwood can't get rid of the Pyrite Parrot.
Unfortunately, too true. MI's TV Tropes page literally lists all the tropes used in MI. TOMI hasn't changed that list all that much. Even the 'Character immortality' trope since we just got spoilered about Chapter 5's contents in the Nintendo Power article. Plus well, like GB gets killed off, riiiiight...
Seriously I'd only be concerned if Elaine was the one killed somehow. Cos that is actually in the realm of possibility of being permanent.
Well you can't really muck about with the status quo unless you know you have another season under your belt I guess.
Hearing Dom Armato delivering genuinely serious lines just made me a bit dumb-founded, even the fantastically sincere "Thanks" he gives Stan in the courtroom for giving him the lowdown before any of the other drama goes down had me thinking "....eh"
I'm not 100% sold on it yet, i'll have to see how it all pans out with Ch 5, plus i've a month to get into the mindset of a somewhat serious episode....which knowing my luck will probably end in a pie-fight or something
In short i'm being defensive, but optimistic
That said, some sort of subtle shout out to GF would be cool.
Or Santino's son, or Santino's father......
On topic though, I think that Monkey Island can pull off the drama, but Tales is starting to go juuuust a bit too far. It depressed the hell out of me in parts, and I'm not sure if that's what I want in a MI game...
Yes, I understand that drama sometimes is the best way to move a story where you want it to go, but if you have to use it in a comedy, I really need gallows-type humor & inappropriate jokes to soften the blow (Red Dwarf was a good example of this).
I really hope I enjoy Chapter 5, but for me, Chapter 4 was ruined by the drama. I enjoyed up to the bit before the drama bomb, but after that - well the mood was killed for me.
As for the strength of the characters, my opinion is that it has nothing to do with mixing drama & comedy. Its just a question of whether it works for the story, and in my opinion, it just didn't work for me.
And where does the stenographer fit into all this?
Or simply, Telltale can't, period. I'm sad to say this about them, but here they tried something that really didn't work out. Kudos for trying, please stop!
It's epic, fantasy, it must give as laughing as emotions !! And the mix in this Episode 4 for me was absolutely perfect ! I rolled on the floor laughing, and really had great emotions !!!
THIS is the real Monkey Island spirit by Grossman & Gilbert !!!
Don't ruin this spirit, and if you want an only-humour story, play Sam & Max !!!
Monkey Island definitely isn't just comedy. It may be mainly comedy, but it always had other elements in it, like romance (even if it seemed like comedy at times), despair (e.g. when Guybrush found out that LeChuck could be brought back to "life" in MI2), horror (when I was playing MI2 at age 11, LeChuck using that Voodoo Doll on Guybrush scared the heck out of me!), mystery (e.g. all the Voodoo related stuff) and so on.
So, why shouldn't drama fit into the MI universe? I think they pulled it off very well in this Fourth Chapter.
Also, I don't think it would feel like Monkey Island if Guybrush was rendered incapable of cracking jokes after Morgan's death.
Monkey Island must have its part of drama, of epic, of fantasy not only in MY OPINION. I'm talking because this is Monkey Island IN THE MIND OF THEIR CREATORS GILBERT AND GROSSMAN. From the 1990. Just look at every interview of them.
I quote a phrase by Ron Gilbert : "in MI there is humour only because EVERY STORY MUST HAVE ITS PART OF HUMOUR". MI was born to be a serious story of voodoo, adventures and pirates, told with gags and jokes, was not born to be some sort of demential situation comedy !!!
If you want only laughing from the beginnig 'till the end, maybe Monkey Island is not the right choice for you !!! If you want as laughing as epic, adventure, and emotions, play Monkey Island !!!
I'm not against drama in MI - not against good drama, that is. What I saw in Ep4 definitely wasn't good.
If you think that these deaths are just for "artificially causing emotions", and have no sense in the history, maybe you're just having bad faith in TellTale, because the game is not still finished...
And, say to me, you that are all criticizing the way in which these deaths are telled, or the Morgan LeFlay psychology, are you all movie or videogame directors, or writers, or what ?? Would you have done a better Monkey Island ?? And how ? There are many tools with that you can program your Monkey Island fangame. Where is your wonderfully-directed Monkey Island version ??
And, last but not least, do you know a thing called "SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF" ??
It really helps to enjoy something, much more than the eternal "I can make this better" attitude...:D
I disagree completely with what you're saying here to be frank. To say such a thing is to say that only those who create can have opinions, and if that's the case then why bother creating anything at all?
It was basically MI2 again.
People dying have been in Monkey Island games all the time, but this is the first time that deaths were shown of major characters other than just the villains. Morgan's death can be considered cliche, but honestly what isn't nowadays. Tales has been so original that I don't think it hurts to have a cliche here and there for 1) The cliche has not been in any Monkey Island game before, so while it may be cliche in media in general, it is not for Monkey Island. 2) The media has tackled so many situations and circumstances, it is virtually impossible to come up with with a story free of cliches. Tales is doing the best with what they have an have come up with a complex story that has many original aspects to it.
As for the drama in general, I believe it is meant to be slightly corny. Dominic said himself that the emotional scenes should not get Oscars since it's Monkey Island, but they show that the characters have grown. I also disagree that their was no build up, Morgan's character along with the voodoo lady's trance set up a foreshadowing of doom for her. I was expecting her to die. Knowing Guybrush will come back doesn't necessarily take the depth away because the characters thought he was dead and reacted that he truly was and would never come back-making his death technically irreversible for everyone else's mind set in the game. The depth is still there and knowing he will come back is good for the players because him just dying is not suitable for Monkey Island, Guybrush dying and coming back should be as close to eternal death as he should be.
Everybody can have opinions, but if I criticize something in a public place, I should argue it, or everybody should think that I criticize only because I want to do it. "THIS IS BAD" it's not an argue, I can think that you're saying it just because when you were playing it, you slept badly the last night, or you're trolling, or something other like that
And if I don't like the particular direction of a scene, or the psychology of a character, I should at least imagine explain why, and how it could be better, or...why should it have to be better ??
Totally agree with this !!!
Without going back and checking the scene where
But all that's irrelevant, if someone doesn't like something then they don't like it, no matter what their reasons. I could sit and ask why you like the drama and ask for particular points, the fact is you liked it and that's your opinion.
I'm very hopeful for it all, and i'm more than aware i'm probably just being overly weary at the minute, so i'm looking towards Ch.5 with optimism
Sure, but if I like something, and I keep my reason for myself, and you like something and you keep your reason for yourself...why there are the forums ?
To be an eternal repartee of "I like it", "I don't", "I do", etc. ???
No, the people sometime argue what do they say, so that in the forums they can discuss about it
And this should happen, expecially when someone writes, attention, not an opinion, but a TECHNICAL JUDGEMENT ABOUT something.
I read things like "Morgan's Psychology is lame". Ok, but why ? How should be better ? Why it's worse than so many characters from old-highly-revered-games like Wally or Otis ??
Or, "Deaths are corny". Ok, but why ? Why they dont fit in the story ? How they should be better ? Why something is a "cliche" if we've never seen something like this in a Monkey Island before ??
Or, there is another way. Stop judjing something, and talk about your feeling, use the magic "IMO" word, and express your feeling in the form of opinion, not of technical judgement. Because for the technical judgement it's legitimate for some one else answering "ok, but what are your skill for writing this ??". Opinions obviously are instead legitimate, allways !
And...if you want to ask me why I do think that drama is the best thing for MI I can answer you. When you want
The first reason is that I play Monkey Island from 1990, and from 1990 is made to be not a situation comedy, but a mix of drama, adventure, and laughing, because so was born in the mind for their creators (read and listen the interviews).
The second is that after two "lighter" chapters (CMI, and EMI), a more dramatic chapter, with much more "adult" characters and stories, would be much more original and unexpected, at least FOR A MONKEY ISLAND, and the TellTale must bet on originality. Originality FOR THE BRAND.
The third is that only an unexpected and original drama, that vaguely remembers some childhood-playing-feeling can make a story unforgettable. More than no-stop laughing. IMO.
I know, maybe not all of you can agree with these reasons, but if you ask me why I have this opinion, I answer to you why, and not "this is my opinion, no matter why"
My point exactly, people should debate their points amongst each other. Which goes back to my original point of being able to do so without somone asking us why don't we present our own better game, or script if we don't agree with them.
Capital.
I don't, and I do. I do believe that Mike and Mark had consciously chosen whom to kill and when (and I can even stretch it to say that Morgan's fall in one way or another was inevitable based on her character), but going from almost all funny to all dark just isn't good dramatization.
This is a non-argument, you see. I was stating my opinion, and I did support it with arguments - but you can't expect me to pull out a game out of my sleeve that needs the work of like 20 people for several months. However, just to give you an idea, the courthouse could have been a very good place to start turning the story into more serious - instead, it had 4 hilarious accusers, and a wife-husband scene that looked more like a divorce than a character witnessing. I'd have started by throwing in a serious crime or two.
And, I'm a pretty serious movie buff. And, I love Dreamfall - if you played the game, then you surely understand that I'm not looking for humour everywhere.
I do know SoD, and it also needs circumstances to work.
And, I do love a lot of things about this episode, but this thread is about the drama. Allow me to not like it, please
I didn't quote most of the post, but you made good points here. I agree about Morgan (see above), and I also agree that we cannot expect Monkey Island to go for dominating the drama category (although I wouldn't rule out the Academy Awards, see
I think the fact it was uncharacteristic for Elaine to cry, meant it had to be done. If she hadn't it would have not redeemed Elaine from her EMI character, especially after her witness stand performance.
The seeking comfort after freed of the pox and her utter hurt after Guybrush's death probably sold a lot of people who only know of her EMI behaviour.
Since EMI was my first MI game I didn't understand what GB saw in her until SoMI:SE. That's how bad EMI damaged her character.
Agree. I've breath a lot of the "LeChuck's revenge" old, dark, and mystic air, too
I think this was a first time for Monkey Island and saying "this is what Monkey Island was always about" its incorrect.
Just go and point me a scene (in Revenge or anywhere you like) like this with Morgan.
Remember, new things aren't always so bad. When a person doesn't like it, it's really that person who didn't grow up... No offense in anyway