Speech Compression

edited March 2007 in Sam & Max
Hi everybody.

I'm Stuart, a full time composer / music producer from the UK and I love Sam n Max, I've replayed hit the road 100s of times (and I play it even more now I have a GP2X :-)

Great start to the new series - and its great to see a proper adventure game, however the one niggling annoyance was the amount / type of compression applied to the speech.

The speech is compressed to such a degree that it is very noticeable especially on s's and female voices. I don’t think most people would mind a longer download time in order to get full quality speech. Maybe offer 2 versions?


Stuart
www.goodsounds.co.uk

Comments

  • EmilyEmily Telltale Alumni
    edited November 2006
    Welcome to the forum.

    The compression Telltale uses allows us to compress the voices to very small file sizes, which is important with downloadable games. Some people hear the compression more than others, and I think it depends on the sound card to a degree, too. I don't even notice it, myself.

    I don't know what would be involved in creating two versions, but with so much going on, it's probably more trouble than it's worth devoting the resources to right now.
  • edited November 2006
    You are right, two versions would be too complicated, but I think it’s more the compression method rather than the size, the curdling upper frequencies did actually disturb me at quite a few points in the game and this can, I believe be avoided without substantial file size increase. I also think that the higher quality the speakers you use are the more you will notice heavy compression; you wouldn’t listen to a small downloaded MP3 on a pair of £4000 speakers.

    It was though the only thing I can pick on in what looks to be a great comeback for Sam n Max so thank you for that, all I ask is that you take my comments on board and at least look at ways to improve on the ‘bad mp3’ sound that is occasionally audible in the speech.

    Thanks
  • edited November 2006
    take my comments on board and at least look at ways to improve on the ‘bad mp3’ sound that is occasionally audible in the speech

    Here! Here! Sybil's and peeper's tinny voices especially.
  • edited November 2006
    The scratchiness is very easily noticeable on anything above $10 speakers.

    I agree that making two different game setup files might take too much work, but it shouldn't take that many extra resources to release a separate 'audio pack' download for people willing to use the extra bandwidth. All the vox files are in one directory, all you need to do is make a zip file with the higher bitrate audio files that unpacks in the right directory.

    That way you can keep the game in one setup file just as it is now. I think it's safe to assume that people who want higher quality audio don't mind downloading the game including the low bitrate audio and then just replacing it afterwards :)
  • EmilyEmily Telltale Alumni
    edited November 2006
    It was though the only thing I can pick on in what looks to be a great comeback for Sam n Max so thank you for that, all I ask is that you take my comments on board and at least look at ways to improve on the ‘bad mp3’ sound that is occasionally audible in the speech.

    We're definitely paying attention to the feedback, don't worry. :)
  • edited November 2006
    Not only do you bring back a game I've loved a large chunk of my life.... but you listen to me:-)

    Thanks and - - - GREAT GAME.
  • edited November 2006
    ...it shouldn't take that many extra resources to release a separate 'audio pack' download for people willing to use the extra bandwidth. All the vox files are in one directory, all you need to do is make a zip file with the higher bitrate audio files that unpacks in the right directory.

    Thats a great idea... wish I'd thought of that :-)
  • edited November 2006
    2 versions would be easy.

    The voices are packed in in a VOB or VOX pack (something like that). They're all seperate. It'd be a cinch (relatively) to create a high-bitrate and low-bitrate version.
  • edited November 2006
    but I think it’s more the compression method rather than the size,
    I might be wrong, but I thing they're using Ogg Vorbis to compress audio in the game. If so, you can't really get much better by changing the codec ass Ogg Vorbis pretty much beats everything else out there in terms of quality. Of course, if you force too much compression on a file, you will always get an audible degradation of the sound quality.

    I personally vote for better sound, even if it increases the filesize. I don't mind downloading a little longer (100MB are nothing these days where links of 1Mbit/s and higher are well available) if in turn the atmosphere of the game isn't disturbed by bad audio.
  • edited November 2006
    I adore this game, but I just joined the forum specifically to comment on the awful compression of the audio. I'm not using a super fancy stereo ($200 mini system and an onboard sound card) and the lacking high-end of the speech made the dialogue quite difficult to listen to in many cases. I'd really love to hear higher quality audio in such a conversation-heavy game series.

    I understand that download size is key for episodic content, but I've played other such games that are over ten times the size (Half Life 2: Episode One, S.I.N. Episodes). I didn't really mind having to wait a bit longer to play a game with high quality media assets as it was well worth the "effort" during the first and subsequent plays.

    I'd love it if the sound were improved for future downloadable episodes, but worst case scenario, how about high quality 44khz sound for the full season CD/DVD?
  • edited November 2006
    Steltek wrote: »
    I might be wrong, but I thing they're using Ogg Vorbis to compress audio in the game. If so, you can't really get much better by changing the codec ass Ogg Vorbis pretty much beats everything else out there in terms of quality. Of course, if you force too much compression on a file, you will always get an audible degradation of the sound quality.
    If they realy are using Ogg Vorbis, it's highly likely that they could improve the audio quality withouth raising the filesize much. If they are using default Vorbis encoding tools, switching to newer more experimental tools would help a lot. There's a Vorbis encoder named as "aoTuV" which includes amazing quality tweaks for Vorbis encoder. It's 100% compatible with Xiph.Org Vorbis decoder. It's based on libvorbis of Xiph.Org and includes heavy tweaking of psychoacoustic model.
  • edited November 2006
    Ogg vorbis is used for the music, and Speex is used for voices/fx.
    Personally, I've found the speech quality to be fine :)
  • edited January 2007
    Just wanted to drop a line here. I sought out and registered for this forum for the sole purpose of finding out if Telltale had been informed of the very bad audio quality in the Sam and Max games. I often find it distracting and sometimes find it cringe-inducing. An upgrade to the audio quality in the future (especially on the CD version, where size shouldn't be as big of an issue), would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks,
    Unno

    P.S. Other than the audio, keep up the good work. I'm really enjoying the games.
  • edited January 2007
    I think it's fine. I usually notice these kind of things, but I haven't noticed the low quality too much here... If I think about it it's obvious, but I can usually get past it.
  • edited January 2007
    Doesn't bother me much.. but I can easily hear it on S's. I can enjoy the game no matter what they decide to do with the speech tho, so it's not a huge concern of mine.

    Would I accept better? Sure. Can I live without better? Sure.
  • edited January 2007
    I was wondering why I kept hearing problems with Ses, I thought my headphones were going out.
  • edited January 2007
    I just wanted to say, that I'd love some better compression sound wise... There's no reason having a semi-great surround system if the sound's all messy. I reacted to the S's being all screechy like and would love a separate "High Quality Speech Pack" or something. I would easily download an extra 20mb's to get rid of the schreechiness...
  • edited March 2007
    The sound quality really needs improvements. The game is great but the bad sound quality really takes away alot of the feeling of the game.

    It's 2007 guys! Every downloadable gamedemo is around 1-4gig and patches for big games like World of Warcraft are around 0.5-1gigabyte. Belieave me, if you would make a game like S&M 100megs larger for improved soundquality not one person in the world would complain about it. In the time we now live in people either don't have a connection or download big things fast.
  • edited March 2007
    My thoughts exactly. Love the series, but I'm really hoping that a higher-quality audio pack will be released later. Music is fine, but the voices sound like I'm listening to a walkie-talkie (though the acting is great).
  • edited March 2007
    Me Not Bothered By Compressed Sound!!!
    Me Like To Compress Things!!!
    Compress With Sledgehammer!!!
    Makes For Tasty Soundbites!!!!

    Me Hungry!!!

    *SMASH!!! SMASH!!! nibble nibble*

    HMMMMM!!!! LOVE THOSE DELICIOUS ESSES!
  • edited March 2007
    spett wrote: »
    It's 2007 guys! Every downloadable gamedemo is around 1-4gig and patches for big games like World of Warcraft are around 0.5-1gigabyte. Belieave me, if you would make a game like S&M 100megs larger for improved soundquality not one person in the world would complain about it. In the time we now live in people either don't have a connection or download big things fast.

    I call bull***t.

    Excluding S&M and a few 5MB or under exceptions, I haven't downloaded a single game or demo for the last several years precisely because they're so huge. I'm still stuck on dialup, and NO it's not a case of being too lazy, cheap or anything else. I am physically incapable of getting a broadband connection where I live, thanks to the utter incompetence of Telstra.

    You mentioned World of Warcraft; every time a WoW patch comes out, it takes me offline for at least several days. If a demo comes out for a game I really want to play, I usually have to pass up because I don't want to tie up my internet connection for a week and a half to play 15 minutes worth of gameplay (incidentally, does anyone remember the days of demos like Descent anymore?).

    Don't even get me started on people who go around embedding videos into their website because "everyone has broadband!" There is still a large number of people on dialup, some of whom cannot upgrade.

    Now, to disprove your above assertion: I would complain. Frankly, if the S&M episodes suddenly grew 100MB larger, I wouldn't continue to buy them (although, since I've purchased the whole season, this is something of an empty threat). The fact that I only have to spend two or so days downloading them is a big thing for me, and one of the core reasons I decided to get them.

    To give you an actual example, I purchased Half Life: Episode 1 when I was on holidays up at my parents (who have high-speed broadband). When I went back to Uni, I wanted to try Ep1 on my (somewhat faster at the time) machine to see how it looked. But since I left in a hurry, I didn't have a copy on CD: I would need to re-download it. I haven't played it since, because it was just taking too long to download. I own the game, and I can't play it because it's infeasible for me to actually get a copy!

    Would I like better sound quality? You bet! But when a new episode is released, I want it now, not a week from now.

    You have broadband and that's wonderful; I'm real happy for you. Just don't ruin things for those of us who aren't so lucky.
  • edited March 2007
    I'd love to download an expanded higher quality sound pack. Come on make it a freakin patch we can down load. I can download 12 gigs over a couple days, and I utilize High quality sound equipment. It's painful to sit and listen to ultra compressed audio with all the hissing.

    It would take VERY LITTLE work for Telltale to make a sound patch file for optional download that patches over the old sound files. It's 2007, I like my Sam & Max game to at least sound better than the version I played back in 1993 from LucisArts.

    It honestly ruins dialog to hear Sam's voice missing a lot of the frequencies in his low deadpan voice. But I suppose listenting to the game as though I were on a cell phone will have to do.
  • edited March 2007
    spett wrote: »
    Belieave me, if you would make a game like S&M 100megs larger for improved soundquality not one person in the world would complain about it. In the time we now live in people either don't have a connection or download big things fast.

    [RANT]

    I'm one person ;)

    I love people that say 'everyone in the world...'. I do so admire how they have the wisdom and courage to speak for everybody.

    The sad truth is, many people live in places where downloading big things is not an option. I know this, because I live in such a place. Oh yes, we DO have so-called 'broadband' here, but its still at best 5 times slower than the rest of the world (even some 3rd world countries!) and it's really only affordable to the rich and/or corrupt.

    The other sad truth is that people in our situation outnumber the fortunate ones by far. There are far more third-world countries in the world than first world, and the population in these countries are usually much higher. [/RANT]

    *breahtes normally*

    Ok, the truth is, I won't mind a bigger download for better sound quality, but talking of 1gig downloads is scaring me :eek:
  • edited March 2007
    As usual, the better option is choice. As I don't like the crappy compression of audio files in Season 1, I don't want either a bigger (compulsory) file for everyone. The matter is choice. But if actually everyone can play, those who have a small connection are happy to play it the day it's out, the others get the game rotten by ugly glitches.
    We have already talked about that, Telltale guys know this, but they have to do a three hours game very month and they are a very small compagny. I understand they don't have time. But they also said the big problem in this is they can't bring support to patch and modifications. Okay, I understand. But I'm sure it's not that difficult to put a zip and replace files through the right directory, with a big "no support warning, save your directory before doing any changes" and hose who wants to try the adventure just try, and if it doesn't work, they can reinstall the game, and even redownload it, as they have a broadband.

    People who claims they want this improvement sure have time to sneak on forums, search the zip file, and replace files manually. I'm sur they don't really care about a beautifull, easy and sexy patch with a "thanks" popup window at the end who make this so beautifull "tund" sound.
    In fact, I don't mind in doing that, it takes five to ten minutes for me to download, and three to replace.

    And everyone will be happy and get colorful.
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