Big Whoop contradicts the crossroads? (spoilers from chapter 5)

mightypirate

I absolutely loved the whole crossroads concept. But am I the only one who think that there is a little continuity problem with the Big Whoop story?

I'm referring to the final dialogue with Lechuck in CMI. In that HUGE dialogue (that I absolutely love) he tells finally to Guybrush what the treasure of BW is: a portal into Hell itself that gave him his voodoo powers and transformed himself into the living dead.

So if Big Whoop is the reason of why he became the GHOST PIRATE Lechuck how can the whole concept of TOMI chapter 5 of Lechuck being a regular dead that came back to the living world with a spell be correct? Does the spell come from Big Whoop itself?

Does anybody know how to fix this little continuity problem?:)

unicornfoal

I always guessed he went to the crossroads after being killed as a zombie... or possibly after he was blown up as a giant statue. That seemed to be the most logical solution to me.

coolsome

http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14119

Friar

Well, the way i see it, Big Whoop was a portal to hell, and given how firey everything looked in chapter five in the real world just under the portal to the crossroads, i think Big whoop is a portal to the crossroads, which is in turn, a portal to the afterlife. Still with me? That means that part of TMI was actually in/under monkey Island.

GuruGuru214

mightypirate wrote: »

Does anybody know how to fix this little continuity problem?:)

Oh, I fixed the hell out of it a few days ago.

GuruGuru214 wrote: »

Okay, I've created my share of conspiracy theories in the five or so weeks I've been on here. Here's the mother of them all. Note that I don't necessarily believe everything I'm about to say.

The Voodoo Lady's endgame plan for the entire series has been obtaining the ultimate voodoo ingredient, essence of pirate god. In order for any of this to be possible, she needed to build up a pirate god and a hero to strike him down.

Enter ambitious and strapping pirate lad LeChuck. Now, LeChuck is smitten with Elaine and would do just about anything to impress her. So the Voodoo Lady tells him of the Secret of Monkey Island. LeChuck sets sail in search of the Secret and, as intended, perishes. However, it's been arranged that he would have access to a voodoo spell to open a rift in the crossroads. Unfortunately for the Voodoo Lady, the sponge is as of yet unobtainable, so when LeChuck escapes and retakes his body, he uses someone else's shred of life to close the Crossroads behind him (ignorant to the fact that he's going to want them open again years later). Lacking the power of love, LeChuck is a powerless animated corpse, and knowing of the true nature of Big Whoop (likely courtesy of the Voodoo Lady), realizes that the treasure is his key to a more powerful form. He and his first mate, Largo LaGrande, begin searching for information on the treasure.

Enter Horatio Torquemada Marley. He and his crew have had the (mis)fortune to acquire the map to Dinky Island and Big Whoop. LeChuck hears rumors of this and finally catches up to them at Blood Island. He cleans up the best he can (lots of deodorant) and presses Rum Rogers for information, and gets exactly what he needs. He then woos Minnie Goodsoup and steals her diamond to trade for a fast ship so he can overtake Marley's crew and take the power of the treasure for himself.

The power of Big Whoop allows his spirit to pass through to hell and gain terrible voodoo power, but in doing so it separates him from his body, which Largo takes away to safety. LeChuck returns to the land of the living as a voodoo enhanced ghost and begins his reign of terror.

Now, to turn LeChuck into the pirate god, the Voodoo Lady needed La Esponja Grande, for that she needed motivation for the hero to retrieve it in the form of the Pox, for that she needed the Cutlass of Kaflu, and for that she needed the Ultimate Insult.

Enter Ozzie Mandrill. H.T. Marley was one of the few remaining pirates who knew the secrets of the Ultimate Insult but would never assemble it. And the Insult appealed to Ozzie Mandrill's ambitions, but he had no knowledge of voodoo. So the Voodoo Lady organized a boat race off the coast of Australia and positioned one of her agents (similar to Morgan) as Marley's first mate, Rum Rogers having retired to Phatt Island. The first mate arranged for Marley's drunken encounter with Mandrill, possibly even steered the conversation as to ensure that the subject of the Ultimate Insult was brought up. LeChuck, intent on disposing of Marley's Dinky Island crew, approaches Mandrill and persuades him to dispose of Marley. Ozzie drives Marley into the whirlpool and sets off to build power in Australia and master the insult in order to prepare to tear the Caribbean apart in order to discover the Ultimate Insult recipe.

Now, the Voodoo Lady knows that Marley will be instrumental in her plans later on, so rather than kill him to cover her tracks on the Ultimate Insult issue, she chooses to hide him on Monkey Island. Her agent waits until the ship is in the whirlpool and then activates the spell to take the Sea Monkey to Monkey Island. The spell draws the ship out of the whirlpool and to the island. The first mate forges a journal suggesting that finding Monkey Island was their original goal and that the first mate's name was Herman Toothrot. He then takes Marley to the beach and whacks him with an accordion, creating the hermit Herman Toothrot. Then, under compulsion of the Voodoo Lady, he hangs himself in order to cover her tracks further.

Enter Guybrush Threepwood, the would-be pirate chosen by fate to play the role of the hero in the Voodoo Lady's plans. His timing for arriving at Melee Island is in perfect timing with LeChuck's attempt to force Elaine's marriage. She needs LeChuck in a physical form, so she assists him in reaching Monkey Island and learning of root beer's effect on ghosts so he can destroy LeChuck and set in motion the events leading to Largo's re-emergence and obtaining of LeChuck's beard. She stations herself near Woodtick in order to provide Guybrush with the voodoo doll , knowing that Guybrush loves to brag and would bring up having killed Lechuck, leading to Largo taking the beard. LeChuck is reunited with his body.

Needing Guybrush out of the way so LeChuck can create the voodoo cannonball and turn himself into a demon, the Voodoo Lady instructs him to search for Big Whoop, knowing that LeChuck would be guarding it and would imprison Guybrush. With perfect timing, Guybrush escapes the carnival, causing LeChuck to drop his cannon ball and become a demon. Then Guybrush screws everything up and turns Elaine into a statue. This doesn't work with the Voodoo Lady's plans because she needs Elaine alive to bring Guybrush back from death and to strike the killing blow to LeChuck from the living side. So she assists Guybrush in uncursing Elaine. Unfortunately, LeChuck got involved and ended up buried under ice.

Reenter Ozzie Mandrill. Ready to search for the secrets of the Ultimate Insult, he frees LeChuck and begins taking over the Caribbean in order to aid his search. Guybrush becomes involved and unwittingly does the Voodoo Lady's bidding by finding Marley's copy of the Ultimate Insult recipe and constructing one. He's taken to Monkey Island and restores Marley's memory, learning how to complete the Ultimate Insult and defeat Ozzie. LeChuck survives the ordeal and begins looking to open the Crossroads by means of the monkeys of Montevideo.

The Voodoo Lady sees her chance to create a pirate god in the reopening of the Crossroads and instructs Guybrush, now in possession of the Ultimate Insult recipe, to create the Cursed Cutlass of Kaflu. He does as instructed and the Cutlass does exactly what the Voodoo Lady intended by releasing the Pox and giving Guybrush reason to seek out the last ingredient for the pirate god, La Esponja Grande. Guybrush performs marvelously, retrieving the sponge and bringing it to full size.

Then LeChuck kills him and the Voodoo Lady loses her hero pawn. With LeChuck's power on the rise and no hero to strike him down, the Voodoo Lady sees her plans falling apart and goes into hiding, lest it all come back on her. However, when Guybrush finds LeChuck's old spell and opens the Crossroads at the exact moment of LeChuck's failure, she sees her opportunity come back and contacts the hero. He returns to his body and shrinks the sponge, allowing for LeChuck to be defeated, and the Voodoo Lady's plan comes to fruition when her new agent, Morgan LeFlay, captures his essence in a jar and delivers it to her.

There you go, the entire series wrapped around the thread of the Voodoo Lady's agenda and two of the biggest plot holes in the series closed up.

Too bad I don't believe a word of it.

Bagge

Friar wrote: »

Well, the way i see it, Big Whoop was a portal to hell, and given how firey everything looked in chapter five in the real world just under the portal to the crossroads, i think Big whoop is a portal to the crossroads, which is in turn, a portal to the afterlife. Still with me? That means that part of TMI was actually in/under monkey Island.

Considering how it takes a voodoo spell and days of sailing for Guybrush to reach Monkey Island in MI1, it makes little sense that Winslow and the merpeople were able to simply sail or swim there. Besides the sea beneath Monkey Island is molten lava, not water.

I think Sailorcuteness' theory in the other thread is pretty plausible.

sharper

GuruGuru214 wrote: »

Oh, I fixed the hell out of it a few days ago.

@_@ that is quite the explanation. I think I just felt my brain explode so it is difficult for me to comment on it.

Too bad I don't believe a word of it.

I'm confused o.o you wrote up that long explaination to say you don't believe a word of it?

GuruGuru214

Because creating theories is fun. Sometimes my brain just comes up with far-out explanations for things, and it's a fun challenge to use those ideas and tie them together with all the facts we have to try and create a working theory. I admit that what I came up with is possible within the Monkey Island canon, but I don't think it's an explanation they would ever actually use. I just had fun stringing the facts together into a crazy-yet-plausible story.

PhantomDrummer

GuruGuru214 wrote: »

Oh, I fixed the hell out of it a few days ago.

Hmmm, well there may be some stretching, but it works for me, in terms of encompassing the entire story. Hats off to you, Guru!

mightypirate

That's just perfect Guru! Thanks! Great explanation!

DeLuca

When he says portal to hell, I think it just means portal to the crossroads

Giovanni

I think that when LeChuck passed through the gates of Big Whoop, his body was actually killed, but not his spirit, which was allowed to remain in the land of the living with infinite voodoo power. When Guybrush zapped him with the voodoo root beer, his spirit was sent into the Crossroads, which is exactly what happened for Guybrush's spirit in chapter five. Then Largo and LeChuck's sorcerer sent LeChuck the voodoo spell to let him escape from the Croassroads. Once back in the land of the living, his spirit was reunited with his dead body with, I suppose, some kind of voodoo spell. I also believe that LeChuck's beard, which was essential to bring LeChuck back to life, as Largo and the Voodoo lady said in LCR, worked as sort of "Sacrifice" to open the Crossroads or "Last shred of life" to close them.

Yorkshiretyke

I thought the same a week ago about the Big Whoop thing, the theories offered are pretty sound in practice. I just wish Telltale had put that much effort into it to to make it more official. Its not fun when people outside the game have to explain plot inconsistencies

PariahKing

Couldn't LeChuck have gone to the crossroads after he died as a ghost? That's what Guybrush did.

Hell, LeChuck's been dead multiple times.

GuruGuru214

While that does make sense, the problem with it is the whole beard thing. Guybrush had no problem getting back from the Crossroads without anyone's help on the land of the living side, using the same spell that LeChuck reportedly used to get back, but after LeChuck's ghost was zapped with root beer, he couldn't be brought back without a living piece of him. What this likely means is that he had been to the Crossroads before and escaped using the spell, but when he was returned via root beer, he was missing one or more of the spell components and had to wait for someone on the living side to bring him back by some other means that required a living piece of him.

So I guess I'm not arguing that he's been to the Crossroads, I'm just saying that he had to have been there at least twice (or more if you count the last fight with Guybrush).

Ignatius

Besides he needs a sacrifice. He could have got that from someone the first time with some smart talk, but after being known as LeChuck (and filling the Crossroads with people he murderer) getting someone to do a sacrifice for him seems unlikely.

Griswald Goodsoup

I think attempting to make a mere abstract term like "Hell" and the crossroads seem quite separate is futile, and illogical. "Hell" as LeChuck put it in CMI could be interpreted as hyperbole for the crossroads, besides why would you want to remain there, it's so bleak even for LeChuck.

Secondly by linking MI locations like the chasm beneath Monkey Island to "Hell" is a matter of interpretation. It's very easy to assume that as LeChuck's "relative" HELL, but I don't think Hell has to be all fire and brimstone. And why should this HELL be something out of the BIBLE (which does not feature as the overriding religious belief in the games like Voodoo does). It's really relative to MI lore, not what most people assume HELL to be.

So when LeChuck says in SOMI: "there's nothing like the hot winds of hell blowing in your face" (or something to that effect, it's really a gimmick, rather than the actual locale.

GuruGuru214

I don't recall the caverns under Monkey Island ever being referred to by a name until Herman Toothrot called them the "Caverns of Meat" in Escape. Calling them hell is just speculation, and Monkey Island does have an active volcano, so lava-filled caverns beneath it aren't much of a stretch.

Ignatius wrote: »

Besides he needs a sacrifice. He could have got that from someone the first time with some smart talk, but after being known as LeChuck (and filling the Crossroads with people he murderer) getting someone to do a sacrifice for him seems unlikely.

Right, that's what I meant. It's also possible that he was unable to improvise one or more of the other three components, but it's the least likely that any of his deceased minions were loyal enough to him to make a sacrifice or that anybody else could be convinced to do so.