ToMI review/retrospective
I'm currently attempting a 52 games in 52 weeks blog (originally started in response to my wife taking part in the 52 books in 52 weeks project).
for those of you interested, it's here.
(It's a big of a shameless plug, but at least it's relevant.)
To actually turn this into a worthwhile discussion, I found the more I've thought about ToMI the more I've enjoyed it. I loved the games, minus a couple of niggles, but I think the more I've gone back and pieced the plot back together the more I've enjoyed it's depth.
Has anyone else found this?
for those of you interested, it's here.
(It's a big of a shameless plug, but at least it's relevant.)
To actually turn this into a worthwhile discussion, I found the more I've thought about ToMI the more I've enjoyed it. I loved the games, minus a couple of niggles, but I think the more I've gone back and pieced the plot back together the more I've enjoyed it's depth.
Has anyone else found this?
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Comments
If so, quick question: where can I buy THAT much time?
Yes, I've found that too. At first my reaction to the series was 'meh' and 'I hate the controls!', and I never got the series until after the fifth episode came out. (in retrospect that is a Good Thing because I would have gone INSANE waiting for Rise of the Pirate God to come out) And I was strongly inclined not to like Morgan because she was a new character and she wasn't Carla.
Boy did my opinion do a complete 180. The story hooked me by the end of Siege of Spinner Cay, and I played through both Trial and Execution of Guybrush Threepwood and Rise of the Pirate God as fast as possible because I wanted to know what happened and how it would end. And Morgan managed to kick Carla out from the position of 'Favourite Character That Isn't Guybrush or Elaine', which Carla had been in since 1991. I can't chalk that up to the gameplay since you don't play as Morgan, that's purely down to the writing.
I've now gone back and replayed my way through the entire series in much more depth, and yeah, now I appreciate the storyline and plot a lot more. Maybe if I hadn't spent most of Launch of the Screaming Narwhal going "OMG THIS IS DIFFERENT I'M AFRAID OF CHANGE!" then I would have appreciated the writing more at the time. The other thing I've noticed a lot more in replays is how a lot of the music in Tales is based on music from the earlier games, and I really like that, it's a nice touch. But my favourite aspects of the game by far are the writing and the voice acting, more than the puzzles, more than the visuals, it's the story that really makes me love Tales.
Not quite,I reckon I played episodes 3-5 in a week though.
Leviathan came out the same month I got married, so between that and a new house and Christmas etc. I'd been waiting for a chance to pick up the series again.
Yeah at first I was worried Morgan was going to be irritating, and an excuse to get Elaine out ofand the way to give Guybrush a new love interest. Actually I thought Telltale handled it really well, and I ended up thinking Morgan was one of the best things about the series.
That's the same way I felt, including the way Telltale handled it. If they had used Morgan to supplant Elaine as Guybrush's love interest I would have wound up hating her with a capital HAET. As it was, I really liked the way it turned out, especially Morgan having obvious feelings for Guybrush and Guybrush being too clueless/worried about other things to notice. Even though I'm a fan of Guybrush/Elaine, that still made me feel for her.
I wasn't expecting him to leave Elaine and run off with Morgan, but at least acknowledging her feelings could have made the rejection less cruel. I really felt for her.
And at the same time Elaine was becoming gradually more and more evil and annoying. Although I hated her the most in chapter 2.
She's just never been a character I liked at all.
Anyway, in the end I'm glad they're still together and stuff, but I was pissed with both of them.
If he did, I also might've prevented Morgan from whacking him over the back of the head with the handle of her sword and delivering him to De Singe.
But then we wouldn't have had to turn him into a zombie, would we?
Yeah, for a second I thought, they could be ghosts together and stay there or whatever... But yeah, that wasn't going to happen :P
I guess this means they should make her look a little younger and centre the next series on her - making it a story where she earns Guybrush's and the fans' love, instead of just having it by default. That'b be a hell of a Monkey game.
Though, even if she was a little annoying, I thought she'd redeemed herself completely by the time Trial ended. One thing I do find a little off-putting is that she says a lot of very grown-up British things in this game, whereas she almost sounded, I dunno, modern or American in the first two (had barely any lines in the third; don't remember her much in the fourth). There has to be a balance between her older, ironically more "modern" version and the British one in CMI/Tales. I doubt her having said "buckets" to Guybrush's "Did you miss me?" would count as such.
Huh? Where dd you see that she should be younger? That seems a weird reasoning.
I didn't find her redeemed in the end at all. She has that "I know-it-all, I'm doing my own thing without warning anyone even though it might create more trouble for everybody" thing that I really don't like. And she's manipulative and insulting to Guybrush, like she thinks he's stupid or something. It's really her condescending tone that I don't like.
In chapter two, the way she just forces her way on Guybrush made my "meh" feeling for her go towards hatred. She was so horrible, it disgusted me. It just feels like she thinks he's her "thing and that she can do whatever she wants, decide, and he'll be forced to follow.
I really didn't like that aspect of her. So no, the end where it's revealed that she had a plan all along and hid it, unless of course she's lying and just pretending she knew all along, didn't redeem her in any way to me. In both ways it made her look pretentious and caring more about being right than her husband's well-being.
It's still possible her attitude will be explained in future seasons, mind you, but for now I really dislike her.
I certainly wouldn't take anything she says to Guybrush while Poxed/a demon bride seriously, yes she says and does terrible, hurtful things but she's not in full control of her actions. If she REALLY felt that way then I don't think she'd have married him in the first place, and she certainly wouldn't stay married to him. And I'm also of the opinion that agreeing to become LeChuck's demon bride wasn't a rejection of Guybrush, it was the only way she could get the Cutlass of Kaflu, as a mortal she wouldn't even be able to hold it. Also, I don't think EVERYTHING was part of her plan, there were some things that didn't go as expected, Guybrush getting killed for a start. At the end she does act like it's all been part of a plan, but that could just be to keep up appearances. Guybrush has shown that he is prone to bouts of hubris that can turn him into a total douche (see: MI2) so I think he does need Elaine and her attitude to keep him grounded.
Re: her Britishness, one of the few things I liked about Escape at the time was her American voice actress. But if you think Tales Elaine is mean to Guybrush, she's a lot worse in Escape. However, thanks to Tales the English voice has really grown on me. Possibly a reason for her being British to begin with in Curse would be because a lot of governmental officials in the Carribean at the time would have been British. Then again, insisting on historical accuracy in MI games is a bit like insisting that classic Sierra games shouldn't randomly kill you for no reason, sooooo... *shrug* Also I did wonder if they brought Alexandra Boyd back so that people might subconsiously link Elaine with Elizabeth Swann in PotC. Except Elaine is SO much better.
Going back to Morgan, in Guybrush's defence she's not really that overt with 'OMG I LOVE YOU', she's quite subtle about it, which I like. And Guybrush isn't good with subtlety, plus IMO he's so in love with Elaine that he wouldn't consider the possibility of being with another woman. (but that is just my opinion) Also, she does go through that period of "omg you are so lame" in Lair of the Leviathan too, so it's not like she hasn't been mean to him either. If Morgan had constantly been chasing after him trying to get him to leave Elaine for him, I wouldn't have liked her anywhere near as much as I do.
I think Morgan realised that Elaine was the only woman for Guybrush pretty early on, which is why she betrayed him at the end of Lair of the Leviathan, something she really regretted after she thought about it for a while. And after Guybrush gets zapped with root beer by Demon Elaine, she pretty much orders him to find a way to go back and save her (Elaine) anyway, it was that bit that really made me love her as a character. She has feelings for Guybrush, yes, but she accepts that he's in love with Elaine and rather than exploit his feelings of rejection to get him for herself, she encourages him not to give up on his wife and to go back and save her. D'awwwwwww.
Finally, does Morgan really need to be with Guybrush? She's awesome all by herself without being a love interest, so I'd like things to stay that way if/when she comes back.
The parts that got to me were:
A) In chapter 2, when no matter how many times you say "no", she looks at you with weird eyes and a pouty face and uses a weird voice to keep insisting. That's manipulative, demeaning and forceful. I don't understand why because it's a female doing it people think it's "cute" while if a man did it to a woman it would be considered abuse. I seriously wanted to smash her through the screen at that time.
That's the two things that really annoyed me, and she isn't poxed for either. She's her normal self.
In contrast Morgan, even though she ends up betraying Guybrush, has been more honest and straighforward. She tells her from the start that she was sent after him, and that she's his fan. She does honour her contract but considering the position she was in, either way she would have been betraying someone.
I wouldn't say I'm a huge fan of Morgan, although I do like her, but I think she did make Elaine look very bad in comparison. It seems to me that was the point. Morgan was what Elaine never seemed to be (looking up to Guybrush, etc) and human LeChuck had traits Guybrush doesn't have either (strength for instance).
I guess the story's point is "even when they were away from each other and with people we were/appeared better, their couple survived" or something like that.
I don't see how she's condescending. You essentially hate that she's a little independent...
RE:younger - I guess part of the negative aspect was that she looked and sounded older in the new games; specifically, a bit older than Guybrush. It doesn't work as well, I think.
However, I have doubts about her personality. While Elaine seems generally open-minded and straightforward in her demeanor, Morgan feels kinda tricky, kinda like her real goal is not at all the one she intends. Maybe she pushed Guybrush back in hopes for him to get rejected even more and eventually forget completely about Elaine. And LeChuck... well, that was pure revenge, not really help. Which furthermore proves that Morgan knows how to plan things.
I'd really like to see some more of Morgan's rivalry to win Guybrush's love. Not necessarily meaning that she would succeed, but kinda always trying to win him back, like part of some cliche.
I always thought the Bristish accent made sense, as if Elaine's family were land owners (i.e govenors) then their wealth would have to come from elsewhere. Briain makes a pretty obvious choice (somehow a dutch or French Elaine just doesn't seem right.) Plus her being one step ahead is a pretty standard part of the game (well apart from when she's a gold statue).
I think the Elaine from EMI is my least favorite, but then Lucasarts when for this whole day-time sitcom relationship for the two of the them. This ment that if generally felt like Elaine treated Guybrush more like a child than a spouse. On the other hand MI2 has the most mature (or messy) take on Guybrush and Elaine's relationship. I'm glad Tales made some headway on getting that back to a more human and capable Elaine.
(Having said all of that, I did get fairly frustrated with her in Spinner Cay - She's a pirate governess, not a middle-class greenpeace supporter. It doesn't quite wash that she didn't trust LeChuck that far back in the story, but then it'll be an interesting one to watch for another play through.)
Actually, that bit reminded me of the bit in MI2 where Guybrush gets Elaine to talk to him by going "Sugarboots!" "Plunder bunny!" etc, it's not really that much different. (Until Guybrush royally screws up by implying that he's only interested in the map anyway)
Isn't that pretty much exactly what Guybrush and Elaine did in the first game? I think you're right about Morgan's tricky nature and motivations though, as well as attacking LeChuck out of revenge it was most likely part of her deal with the Voodoo Lady too, so it was in her own best interests. Though to be fair to Morgan, she did sacrifice her reputation/independence/whatever that shred was to help Guybrush complete the spell to open the Crossroads. (then again, since she seemed to think she'd be able to travel through as well, it might not have been entirely altruistic)
The other thing about Morgan is that I'd be surprised if she doesn't have a few relationship issues, what with her killing her first love and all. I got the impression that she'd killed him to avenge the death (or murder) of her uncle Jugbender but still, there's gotta be a few issues stemming from that.
- Mrs. Marley...
- Mr. Threepwood...
- Elaine!
- Guybrush!
- SUGARBOOTS!!!
- PLUNDER BUNNY!!!
You know, it was increasing. Because she felt Guybrush feel the same thing. Now imagine how awkward would Morgan sound if she goes the same on Guybrush. I think he'll just finish with "OH SHUT UP ALREADY!!!"
Actually, it WAS her Shred of Life. She lied about it to him. But she knew what she was doing, once again, as she got her body back.
(Btw, wouldn't that make her a zombie now?
She's definitely a bit unsocial. It's always with people like that - if you follow only your personal goals and valor only your own well-being, you won't have friends because what are they for then? So either she learns how NOT to betray others, or she'll always end up drinking her misery away in a pub. I think that's Morgan's main dilemma.
Has Telltale actually confirmed that it was her Shred of Life?
I did wonder if she'd come back as a zombie, and if she did would she then have to strike a deal with the Voodoo Lady for the supply of various concoctions to stop her zombie body from decaying? Because zombies aren't really known for feats of acrobatics.
No, they didn't. They didn't confirm the opposite either. It's just my personal thought. Hearing Morgan say: "Oh, don't worry, it's just my reputation" is like knowing you're being lied to right in the face, and accepting it.
I don't think Elaine knew that Guybrush would have to give up his Shred of Life in order to trap LeChuck between worlds. When Guybrush tells her they can defeat him by injuring him in both words at once he doesn't say 'also I'll be trapped there forever', so I think it's unfair to say that she was abandoning him.
If you don't use the Shred of Life on the rip in time, and LeChuck throws you back through to the ship, you see Elaine hauling herself up onto the crow's nest just as Lechuck comes back through the rip, she doesn't have enough time to get up there and stab him unless he's stuck there, but she was trying.
Maybe she didn't intent any of that at all. I'm not saying she intended it. But she just looked like manipulating Guybrush completely, and I agree with this p.o.v.
I always liked Elaine from the previous games, I just think that, compared to Morgan, she didn't get nearly as much character development in Tales. Morgan got a lot of screentime, a lot of time for us to connect to her and that made her more popular, especially with Elaine being poxed. Although I actually really enjoyed that. Poxed Elaine was hilarious.
I really enjoy Morgan and Guybrush's relationship (and I would be lying if I said I didn't ship them a little) and I'd like more development on that part. Not necessarily into full-on love triangle mode, but... I want them interact some more. And Morgan is just so... conflicted. With her love for Guybrush, but her understanding that he really, truly loves Elaine (as evidenced by her willingness to help him save her in the last Episode), as well as the events in her past (falling in love with someone enough to tattoo his name on her arm, but then killing him. Now there's a story I'd like to hear)... she has a lot of depth. Especially once she realized (in chapter 3) that Guybrush wasn't exactly who she thought he was, and then decided she still liked him, anyway. It's probably pretty obvious now that I'm a bit of a fangirl for her...
And finally, to comment on the original topic, I concur. Although I liked Tales from the start, I think the quality developed positively from the beginning to the end and replaying it, I just enjoy it even more. I really hope TT will be able to add another story to the series, because there really is a lot more to be told. Especially for Elaine.
Plotbunnies... eating... brain... *flails* On the one hand I'd really like to write that backstory, on the other I'd really like to see Telltale's version. Argh.
But as that has no bearing on the thread, back to the topic! I do like Morgan and Guybrush's relationship even if I don't ship them, as I already said, one of my favourite things about Morgan is that she was prepared to ignore her own feelings for Guybrush in order to talk him into going back to save Elaine.
One of the things I noticed when replaying Lair of the Leviathan was in the dialogue between Guybrush and Morgan at the very end of the episode, Guybrush asks Morgan where she thinks the manatees are going, she replies wherever nature tells them to, and shortly afterwards knocks Guybrush out. To me, at that point it looks like Morgan is considering what her nature is telling her to do, which is to doublecross Guybrush. I might be reading entirely too much into it, but it's things like that which make me go back and play through the games again.
So Morgan did lie, but it was about the Shred representing her reputation.
Also, just to clarify: Morgan doesn't get her body back. Just the ability to escape the Crossroads and roam the living world as a ghost pirate hunter.
And re: the topic at hand -- much of what Reaper Lyn said, as well as this from birky:
I think that last quote might the crux of it all when it comes to Elaine and how different fans can perceive her so, well, differently. (FWIW, it was ToMI that got me the most on board with Guybrush and Elaine's relationship, but I friendship Guybrush+Morgan harder than I ship Guybrush/Elaine. Then again, I tend to be more a friendshipper than a shipper shipper, so yeah.)
See, we don't ultimately know whether she did or she didn't. However, this is quoth from her dialogue with the Voodoo Lady after the credits roll (I presume everyone got there, right?) :
M: Here you go. I kept my end of the bargain. Now you keep yours.
VL: Alright, fine. You will get your body back.
*snaps fingers* That's exactly the term I'd use to describe my sentiments towards Guybrush and Morgan's relationship. I've never heard of 'friendshipping' as a type of ship before, but that pretty much sums it up.
Look closely at who's quoting flying sheep. It's Mike Stemmle.
Erm, actually, the Voodoo Lady replied thusly (source, starting about 2:57):
"Yes, your actions have influenced your fate. I will allow your ghostly form to return to the physical realm to carry on as a fearsome pirate hunter."
*grin* I love friendshipping. Love love love it. There's a handful of OTPs I gush over, but for me, friendshipping's where it's usually at. It's so underrated, it's criminal.
Nah, I'm not good at memorizing dialogues. But I must've been fed up the first time I saw this not to actually see how ambigous the end was.
I liked the ending, but magic/voodoo will always be a bit of a paper of the cracks affair.
Plus it wasn't quite at good as 6 days a sacrifice for a final, I'm stuck here, puzzle though.
Well, idk what you all are on Elaine's case about that for.
Speaking as a married man myself, I didn't find it condescending at all. She just wants her husband to do something for her, so she's playing it up all cute and pouty. It's just an act, and sure she's only doing it to get her way, but he knows that. Married people act like that. I act like that with my wife, and she acts like that with me. Not all the time, mind you, but once in a great while and sometimes either of us will kind of laugh about how silly the other one looks while doing that. It's just something married people do sometimes, and I'll bet you someone over at Telltale is married and understands this. She's not condescending. They're married. They can get away with playing these silly games that married couples play with each other. It doesn't mean anything at all. Maybe it would be condescending if they were only dating, but they're not. Besides, you notice that Guybrush doesn't complain about it or seem to think she's condescending. If my wife played it up with me to get me to do something for her, I wouldn't think it she was being condescending either... after all, as a married man, I have to admit that look often says "I'll make it up to you later."
I really do think you all are making too big a deal out of it. It's just something married people do.
About Elaine knowing everything that's going on and having a master plan.... There is an interview of Mike Stemmle I read in which this is said:
...and...
Someone explain to me when she has had such an ability that Mike and company seems to think she's always had.
In Secret, she did have friends on LeChuck's ship as well as a minor plan to get LeChuck sprayed with root beer at the wedding, but Guybrush messed that up temporarily, which she didn't plan for. She even had to make herself known when he ran in because she didn't expect him to show up when he did.
In Revenge, she didn't even play that big of a part. She only appears long enough to throw the map piece out the window and to later get Guybrush to tell her a story and then wonder if LeChuck has him under a curse but she doesn't do anything about it.
In Curse, she doesn't plan to get turned into a statue, nor does she help Guybrush more than to get the roller coaster stuck in a loop (but I thought that was to prevent LeChuck from killing people rather than to help Guybrush.)
In Escape, she spends the entire game on Melee Island dealing with trying to win back her Governorship from LeChuck, which she fails at until the statue he possesses is destroyed, after which she and Guybrush get Herman Toothrot to be Governor.
...someone tell me where Elaine has a history of thinking several moves ahead of everyone else around her.
It seems to me that the role of Voodoo lady was to prepare us for a big change in the MI universe. I'd love to ask Ron if he offerered up some elements from his MI3 story in ToMI, or some hints to how the story would continue if he had done MI3.
The interviews over here give a couple of insights into Ron's involvement, and they seem to suggets that it's more to do with character than plot.
In fact I think Ron was the one who suggetsed Elaine whould be several steps ahead. If you look at MI1 she certainly is. Also she's by far the most mature character in MI2 and tries to rise above Guybrush. She's also the only character which show any sense of responsibilty - i.e chasing after the explosion on Dinky. (Actually the fact that she can find the place suggests she's been keeping a eye on the situation) I guess it also taken some intelligence (or maybe wit) to govern 3 islands of pirates and not have them rebel and looy your mansion.
Beyond that they're no longer Ron's games, but she's certainly pretty capable in the seige at the start of MI3.
There is no reason why you can't do both, you know.
First of all, I'm married too, and I think the way you explain it is a bit... I'm not sure how to explain that, but I would have preferred if you had used "committed relationship" or something. Some people spend their lives together and choose never to marry, that doesn't mean they're any less in a relationship, in a non-casual way. And some people marry and they've never met, and there is no complicity. So being married doesn't mean that much one way or the other I feel. It's not necessary to be married to have a trusting relationship, and being married doesn't mean you do, either.
Anyways, that part of the game awakened very strong feelings in me, and that's usually great in a game but I doubt that was the goal in this instance.
See, if she had pouted and he had been "oh, all right" right away, I would have found it funny.
But being Guybrush, playing him and saying "no", "no", "no" many times, in many different ways, and she just doesn't care, doesn't try to convince him with arguments or anything, wants him to do something that he really, really doesn't want to do...
It made me extremely uncomfortable, and it made me dislike her a lot. You can say no to her like ten times, but she doesn't care, she'll have it her way, you'll do what she said.
It didn't feel nice at all.
And in the end, she just acts like she knew everything all along. I doubt she did (if she did, I think she's even worse, barring a future explanation) but it still makes her sound pretentious and like she wants Guybrush to think she is something she isn't.
I might be overanalising all this, but likes and dislikes are gut feelings, that's how I felt. So I don't think I can convince anyone, since, you know, if you feel differently you just do.
On the other hand, I liked Elaine more when she was poxed. She somehow acted more like she cared for Guybrush (in my opinion/perception), even if there were notes of "you're my thing" in that.
EDIT:
I can't wrap my mind around an Elain that wouldn't be older than Guybrush. She's already Governor in the first game, probably a major, which would be 21 at the time. I always picture him at 17 or so. I see her about 5 years older than he is, give or take.
I don't hate that she's independent, by the way. Although, when you're in a committed relationship, you do have to keep your spouse in the loop, I feel, so she can't be /too/ independent, either.
But she's not saying "I'll do this thing, okay?" and Guybrush tell her "no". No, she says "okay, you go and do this thing." That's not independence at all.
I've always felt that Elaine... That might sound terrible, but oh well. You know how some people write these fanfics and then there is the main character who is just like them, and there is that ideal female stereotype and she's madly in love with him for no good reason because he's the hero? I always felt that Elaine started that way, as the "girl who falls heads over heels for the hero even though she's always rejected everyone else, because he's that great".
And because of that, I feel their relationship always seems forced to me. It's like it fluctuates between some kind of friendship, with jokes here and there to really drop hints that yes, they're a couple, please don't forget that they're a couple.
I think there is also the problem that so far, Elain has always been away. You play the game on your own, so she's conveniently elsewhere. As a result you don't get to see them interact quite as much.
I can't see a reason why Elaine couldn't be around more. In episode 3 you ally with Morgan, in Sam and Max you're Sam but Max helps, in other words there is no reason for Elaine to be kept away, it's possible to do it differently, and I think it would reconcile me with her to see them interact more in an everyday way.
...that's pretty much the conclusion I came to as well. Moo hoo ha ha.
I'd like to see that in a future game as well, I really liked all the parts in Tales where they got to interact.
Idk, I'm pretty sure that's just a parody of the bucket "puzzle" from the second game, except now you're the one just saying no over and over again. At least, that's what I thought and I found it hilarious being on the other side of it all.
In other thoughts, this game must have some pretty powerful emotional grips on folk if we're all still arguing about this issue.
Of course it does. Although as I said earlier, I doubt this specific emotional response was the intended one.