Speaking of the "Good / Evil Balance"

I've just watched some EMI walkthrough video and found a comment on it which I found very interesting:

"Funny how is Escape form monkey Island, the aim is to save all the pirates from the effects of the ultimate insult and becoming too soft and submissive.
Yet in Tales of monkey Island, they need to stop the effects of the Pox of LeChuck before it turns all the pirates to hard and evil"

I've never thought of that before but it actually matches perfectly with the new found facts about the Voodoo Lady and her control of the "tides of destiny", helping / making Guybrush to do things that balance good and evil.

Also, this is the first time I realize the similarity between the giant shell and the wind machine, especially in their function as an amplifier.

Coincidence? There have been fairly few references to EMI in Tales, but there might actually be a story connection here. What do you guys think?
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Comments

  • edited April 2010
    TMI took the best parts of EMI and improved on them
  • edited April 2010
    That's a very interesting point you make, Mermaid. I love the idea of the Voodoo Lady just trying to maintain balance; being neither good nor evil. It would explain a lot of things, I am in favor of this theory.
  • edited April 2010
    I like this theory too!
    The risk Monkey Island runs is is redundancy.

    Basically LeChuck comes back more fantastically powerful than before, then there's always some great threat to the caribbean (I think this was a new dynamic that emanates from CMI) E.g. Big Whoop will turn every pirate into the undead; Ultimate Insult will stupefy every pirate, Pox makes every pirate sociopathic, culminating in anarchy and eventual dissolution.

    But to bundle say the Ultimate Insult and the Pox, given their parallel nature, is an excellent rise for the Voodoo Lady to take control of the Caribbean.

    When you think about it the Ultimate Insult and the Pox were not intentional plans set out by LeChuck, even though he attempted to command them in his favour.
    So you might say in each of the Voodoo Lady's plans, LeChuck steals her thunder, their is chaos for a while, then Guybrush brings balance back to the Force... and we're back at square one.

    Now that LeChuck is safely out of the picture, in the hands of an indomitable Voodoo Lady, this is an excellent lead for her to control the Caribbean.
    I'm sensing a very calculating Palpatine-esque manipulator of fates if this is all true.
  • edited April 2010
    I like this theory too!
    The risk Monkey Island runs is is redundancy.

    Basically LeChuck comes back more fantastically powerful than before, then there's always some great threat to the caribbean (I think this was a new dynamic that emanates from CMI) E.g. Big Whoop will turn every pirate into the undead; Ultimate Insult will stupefy every pirate, Pox makes every pirate sociopathic, culminating in anarchy and eventual dissolution.

    But to bundle say the Ultimate Insult and the Pox, given their parallel nature, is an excellent rise for the Voodoo Lady to take control of the Caribbean.

    When you think about it the Ultimate Insult and the Pox were not intentional plans set out by LeChuck, even though he attempted to command them in his favour.
    So you might say in each of the Voodoo Lady's plans, LeChuck steals her thunder, their is chaos for a while, then Guybrush brings balance back to the Force... and we're back at square one.

    Now that LeChuck is safely out of the picture, in the hands of an indomitable Voodoo Lady, this is an excellent lead for her to control the Caribbean.
    I'm sensing a very calculating Palpatine-esque manipulator of fates if this is all true.

    I think what Mermaid is trying to say though is that the voodoo lady isn't evil and doesn't want control over the Caribbean, just wants to keep things balanced. If she really wanted to conquer the Caribbean, she could've done it a long time ago. I think she believes that everyone is open to make their own decisions and so can only give people the info they want to know. I agree with this theory though that the voodoo lady simply wants everything to be balanced in the seas. Also, I think LeChuck did plan the pox because I once sent Jake an email in regards to this and he said that in his opinion, LeChuck intentionally became a human and started the pox to influence others to start on the path to La Esponje Grande. Then he would take it all as his own. The fact that he had a voodoo trust charm on him also hints he had all this planned out along with the fact he said he knew more about the cursed cutlass more than anybody else.
  • edited April 2010
    What makes a lady turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or was she just born with a heart full of neutrality?!
  • edited April 2010
    I think that this shows one of the great improvements over EMI that TMI has. While EMI's story tries to protect the cool pirateness of the pirates (shallow and immature), TMI tries to protect their humanity (more mature and deep)
  • edited April 2010
    Fealiks wrote: »
    I think that this shows one of the great improvements over EMI that TMI has. While EMI's story tries to protect the cool pirateness of the pirates (shallow and immature), TMI tries to protect their humanity (more mature and deep)
    Wait, what?
  • edited April 2010
    I don't really know
  • edited April 2010
    I think the Voodoo lady is after something... She was the one who told LeChuck about Monkey Island and he went off in an attempt to impress Elaine only to end up dead along with his crew.. later to come back as a ghost.

    Meanwhile LeChuck out of the picture the Voodoo lady needed someone else to do her leg work... and recruits Guybrush in LeChucks place...
  • edited April 2010
    Irishmile wrote: »
    I think the Voodoo lady is after something... She was the one who told LeChuck about Monkey Island and he went off in an attempt to impress Elaine only to end up dead along with his crew.. later to come back as a ghost.

    Meanwhile LeChuck out of the picture the Voodoo lady needed someone else to do her leg work... and recruits Guybrush in LeChucks place...

    I don't think it was ever explicitly stated that she told LeChuck about Monkey Island though. I just think the voodoo lady tells people the info they want to know, even though she knows what will happen, because she knows it's not her place to tell someone what will happen to them to the extent that they know too much. She knew what would become of LeChuck, but he would always be out there in some shape or form killing people.
  • edited April 2010
    Now that I really think about it, if the voodoo lady really did tell LeChuck about Monkey Island, it may have been an effort by her to kill him. Whenever people mention LeChuck's backstory they mention a "mysterious storm" that sank his ship. Perhaps this storm was the work of the voodoo lady who tried to kill LeChuck before his reign of terror went too far, little did she know she would make things ten times worse. Either that or she did it as all part of an overall goal.
  • edited April 2010
    I think its pretty obvious that LeChuck would have talked to the Voodoo lady at some point before trying to get to Monkey Island.... Everyone on Melee Island seem to have thought she was the one to talk to about info... So it is reasonable to believe that LeChuck would have gone to her.... plus he would have just been a man at the time... one whom Elaine felt comfortable to invite to her house (where he actually died)
  • edited April 2010
    I don't think it was ever explicitly stated that she told LeChuck about Monkey Island though. I just think the voodoo lady tells people the info they want to know, even though she knows what will happen, because she knows it's not her place to tell someone what will happen to them to the extent that they know too much.

    You sound as though you believe her to be benign. I disagree. I believe her to be not only controlling circumstances for her own benefit, but also quite deceptive about it.


    ...

    Okay, everyone. Think about this... While playing Secret, when you talk to the Voodoo Lady she often would interrupt Guybrush before he spoke, and gave him the answer to a question he hadn't asked yet. I posit that perhaps one of the ways she controls the flow of information to the people she meets with is by controlling both the question asked and the answer given. By answering questions before they're asked, she's able to trick people into believing that the question she "sees" is the same as the one they were going to ask. In this way, she can control circumstances by giving people information that she makes them think they, themselves wanted.

    Also, consider how LeChuck was jailed in a cell right next to the Voodoo Lady in ToMI Chapter 4, and then he was later able to not only trick the guard into setting him free (albeit that's not really hard) but he also knows exactly how to reverse the flow of voodoo from the sponge back into himself. What did the Voodoo Lady "let slip" to him when they were jailed together? I'm almost convinced that there was a conversation between the two of them in jail, where she was able to manipulate circumstances further to her benefit by playing to LeChuck's desires.
  • edited April 2010
    Chyron8472 wrote: »
    You sound as though you believe her to be benign. I disagree. I believe her to be not only controlling circumstances for her own benefit, but also quite deceptive about it.


    ...

    Okay, everyone. Think about this... While playing Secret, when you talk to the Voodoo Lady she often would interrupt Guybrush before he spoke, and gave him the answer to a question he hadn't asked yet. I posit that perhaps one of the ways she controls the flow of information to the people she meets with is by controlling both the question asked and the answer given. By answering questions before they're asked, she's able to trick people into believing that the question she "sees" is the same as the one they were going to ask. In this way, she can control circumstances by giving people information that she makes them think they, themselves wanted.

    Also, consider how LeChuck was jailed in a cell right next to the Voodoo Lady in ToMI Chapter 4, and then he was later able to not only trick the guard into setting him free (albeit that's not really hard) but he also knows exactly how to reverse the flow of voodoo from the sponge back into himself. What did the Voodoo Lady "let slip" to him when they were jailed together? I'm almost convinced that there was a conversation between the two of them in jail, where she was able to manipulate circumstances further to her benefit by playing to LeChuck's desires.

    I like this idea. :)
  • edited April 2010
    I still think ozzie mandrill should be revealed as the controling force behind everything


    ozzie.jpg
  • edited April 2010
    Irishmile wrote: »
    I think its pretty obvious that LeChuck would have talked to the Voodoo lady at some point before trying to get to Monkey Island.... Everyone on Melee Island seem to have thought she was the one to talk to about info... So it is reasonable to believe that LeChuck would have gone to her.... plus he would have just been a man at the time... one whom Elaine felt comfortable to invite to her house (where he actually died)

    Did he? I assume you're referring to Estevan's story of LeChuck and Elaine where she tells him "to drop dead". Estevan says "So he did!" but thinking about it I guess this was referring to his fatal journey to Monkey Island, which happened shortly after his meeting with Elaine.

    But giving it a second thought..what IF Elaine told him to drop dead and he DID so that very moment - wouldn't that mean she's in possession of some mysterious power too that she's been hiding? Maybe some power that's in opposition to classic Voodoo? ("Your wife's ways are her own, Guybrush.")
  • edited April 2010
    You mean she has latent psychic abilities?
  • edited April 2010
    This totally makes sense, congrats Mermaid!
  • edited April 2010
    Maybe LeChuck tried to seduce her, she told him to drop dead, and he's so stupid that he figured she was into dead people or something, so he became an undead to get her to say yes.
  • edited April 2010
    Avistew wrote: »
    Maybe LeChuck tried to seduce her, she told him to drop dead, and he's so stupid that he figured she was into dead people or something, so he became an undead to get her to say yes.
    Isn't that how it's always portayed? LeChuck is a pathetic guy who doesn't understand the word "No", who always moves on with obsessive hope that this girl will love him. And so, his obsession leads him to think that if he drops dead, like she wants, then maybe she'd love him.
  • edited April 2010
    I still also think that Elaine is somehow deeply tied to the Secret... she may not even know that she is... Its also possible that is the only reason Lechuck is interested in her.
  • edited April 2010
    Maybe LeChuck tried to seduce her, she told him to drop dead, and he's so stupid that he figured she was into dead people or something, so he became an undead to get her to say yes.

    Ha! I love that idea.
    Irishmile wrote: »
    I still also think that Elaine is somehow deeply tied to the Secret... she may not even know that she is... Its also possible that is the only reason Lechuck is interested in her.

    Exactly what I started to think after I finishing Tales, Irishmile. Especially after seeing LeChuck smacking her around basically the same way as he did to Guybrush. To have her out of his way while trying to kill Guybrush, he could as well have paralyzed her as he did with Winslow and the merpeople, yet he's just as cruel to her as to him. That doesn't really show that he cares for her as an adorer would. Maybe he needs her (secret powers) to lay that bloody siege to the very heart of voodoo itself. Maybe Elaine swallowed the secret of Monkey Island. :D
  • edited April 2010
    Mermaid wrote: »
    Ha! I love that idea.



    Exactly what I started to think after I finishing Tales, Irishmile. Especially after seeing LeChuck smacking her around basically the same way as he did to Guybrush. To have her out of his way while trying to kill Guybrush, he could as well have paralyzed her as he did with Winslow and the merpeople, yet he's just as cruel to her as to him. That doesn't really show that he cares for her as an adorer would. Maybe he needs her (secret powers) to lay that bloody siege to the very heart of voodoo itself. Maybe Elaine swallowed the secret of Monkey Island. :D

    he might just be mad at being stabed by her XD
  • edited April 2010
    he might just be mad at being stabed by her XD

    Aah, that would be SO obvious...too easy.
  • edited April 2010
    Nah. He's just obsessive, jealous, and desperate. It's a "If I can't have you, NOBODY can!" deal.
  • edited April 2010
    Nah. He's just obsessive, jealous, and desperate. It's a "If I can't have you, NOBODY can!" deal.

    But, see, he COULD have her, even without that marriage that is. Why is that marriage so important to him??
  • edited April 2010
    Isn't that how it's always portayed? LeChuck is a pathetic guy who doesn't understand the word "No", who always moves on with obsessive hope that this girl will love him. And so, his obsession leads him to think that if he drops dead, like she wants, then maybe she'd love him.

    That's never how I saw it. The guy in the scumm bar says something like "she told him to drop dead, so he did." I don't think that he means he dropped dead on purpose because she told him too... in fact, it's unlikely that the guy in the scumm bar would even know exactly what she said to him (so she might never have actually said "drop dead" exactly, just rejected him somehow. it's unlikely that anyone knew exactly what other people were saying in those days because the internet speeds were, like, hella slow). I always thought it just meant LeChuck died while he was trying to win over elaine.
  • edited April 2010
    estn.jpg
    Hey Estaban Fealiks thinks you are a liar.
    est2t.jpg
  • edited April 2010
    Mermaid wrote: »
    But, see, he COULD have her, even without that marriage that is. Why is that marriage so important to him??

    maybe hes very religious he built his own church
  • edited April 2010
    Mermaid wrote: »
    But, see, he COULD have her, even without that marriage that is. Why is that marriage so important to him??

    Because Guybrush got it.

    The way I see it, he's not obsessed by Elaine because he's in love with her, not anymore. At this point it's because he was rejected, than this kid wasn't, and to make this worse that kid sprayed him with root beer and so on. In MI2 he seemed more concerned with hurting GB than getting Elaine.
    Maybe he's just figured that getting Elaine is the best way to hurt GB.
  • edited April 2010
    I'd chalk it up to LeChuck being a hyper-obsessive psychopath. He knows what he wants and he's determined to get it. It's not about love, it's about control.

    It only makes things worse that LeChuck can't be permanently eradicated (as far as we know.)
  • edited April 2010
    Mermaid wrote: »
    Ha! I love that idea.
    Maybe he needs her (secret powers) to lay that bloody siege to the very heart of voodoo itself. Maybe Elaine swallowed the secret of Monkey Island. :D

    Actually thats not that very far fetched, if you have read On Stranger Tides pretty much similar thing happens as
    Blackbeard tries to kidnap the main character's love interest so that he can marry her and regain access to the female aspects of Voodoo, since she is the only woman to have shed blood at the fountain of youth and therefore the only one to 'equal' him.
    If you have read On Stranger Tides you will know what I'm talking about. :D
  • edited April 2010
    Jazzy wrote: »
    Actually thats not that very far fetched, if you have read On Stranger Tides pretty much similar thing happens as
    Blackbeard tries to kidnap the main character's love interest so that he can marry her and regain access to the female aspects of Voodoo, since she is the only woman to have shed blood at the fountain of youth and therefore the only one to 'equal' him.
    If you have read On Stranger Tides you will know what I'm talking about. :D

    I haven't, Jazzy, but it sounds like I should. :)
  • edited April 2010
    It would make a lot of sense if Elaine had some incredible voodoo power hidden within her due to her connections with her family. As much as many people hated EfMI, this secret could fit in there, such as how Elaine's family were governors of Melee Island for many years and the symbol of that power unleashed voodoo power into the Ultimate Insult. LeChuck also stated he had "plans" for Elaine in the first game, obviously referring to marring her. However, now that I look back at what he said, it seems that he was hinting at there being much more planned than simply marrying her. This may have been hinting at LeChuck wanting to marry her other than having a beautiful woman at his side.

    If this is true, this could also explain why he is also so hell bent on making her evil and corrupt. If he can gain control of Elaine and, by extension, the secret, he would want to make sure it is influenced by demonic power to insure it is used for his plans. The secret could be that Elaine is not real, just a personification of ultimate power in a female form. The metaphor being power is attractive, always difficult to obtain or understand, and almost always escapes your reach.
  • edited April 2010
    Next thing you're going to tell us is that Elaine turns into a cake if you say her true name.
  • edited April 2010
    Chyron8472 wrote: »
    Next thing you're going to tell us is that Elaine turns into a cake if you say her true name.

    Um....no, actually I'm not.
  • edited April 2010
    It would make a lot of sense if Elaine had some incredible voodoo power hidden within her due to her connections with her family. As much as many people hated EfMI, this secret could fit in there, such as how Elaine's family were governors of Melee Island for many years and the symbol of that power unleashed voodoo power into the Ultimate Insult. LeChuck also stated he had "plans" for Elaine in the first game, obviously referring to marring her. However, now that I look back at what he said, it seems that he was hinting at there being much more planned than simply marrying her. This may have been hinting at LeChuck wanting to marry her other than having a beautiful woman at his side.

    If this is true, this could also explain why he is also so hell bent on making her evil and corrupt. If he can gain control of Elaine and, by extension, the secret, he would want to make sure it is influenced by demonic power to insure it is used for his plans.

    That's an interesting point! What makes it a little unlikely to me is the fact that LeChuck has never talked about those (possible) plans. Why wouldn't he? I mean, he loves to reveal his evil plots like he did at the end of TOMI. He told Guybrush about the intentions he had with the Big Whoop carnival and the roller coaster of the death, the Ultimate Insult, La Esponja Grande. Why would he never have revealed plans he has with Elaine other than just making her as a beautiful woman his bride?

    On the other hand, since MI 3 -5 were not made by Ron Gilbert, the storyline might have gotten off course. So you may be right: maybe those plans would have been revealed in the "other" MI3.
  • edited April 2010
    Mermaid wrote: »
    That's an interesting point! What makes it a little unlikely to me is the fact that LeChuck has never talked about those (possible) plans. Why wouldn't he? I mean, he loves to reveal his evil plots like he did at the end of TOMI. He told Guybrush about the intentions he had with the Big Whoop carnival and the roller coaster of the death, the Ultimate Insult, La Esponja Grande. Why would he never have revealed plans he has with Elaine other than just making her as a beautiful woman his bride?

    On the other hand, since MI 3 -5 were not made by Ron Gilbert, the storyline might have gotten off course. So you may be right: maybe those plans would have been revealed in the "other" MI3.

    Very true, but LeChuck has known that Guybrush is also in love with her. After they got married, I think it would be in LeChuck's best interest not to tell either of them the power that sleeps in Elaine for fear that in might be used against him. Guybrush is married to her afterall, so if he knew about her power, he would most likley use it to stop LeChuck once and for all. Perhaps he has truly known the Secret of Monkey Island all along and just refuse to answer it or say he doesn't know to keep it safe.
  • edited April 2010
    Avistew wrote: »
    Maybe LeChuck tried to seduce her, she told him to drop dead, and he's so stupid that he figured she was into dead people or something, so he became an undead to get her to say yes.

    this discussion reminds me of when i was playing SOMI for the first time when i was a little kid and the shopkeeper told guybrush that the swordmaster said he could jump in the lake or something like that.

    i was trying for days/weeks to get guybrush into any body of water i could find on melee island and got myself quite frustrated.

    taking the dialogue literally in this case was proven to be a mistake. i always suspected it was the same for lechuck dropping dead.
  • edited April 2010
    The first time I ever played SMI, I thought asking the shopkeeper to talk to Carla was just to get him out of the store.

    After I bought the treasure map, the game let me wander freely through the forest, and I found her house quite by accident. It's just as well, though. Wandering like that let me find the stump joke, which I thought was hilarious.
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