Yippeee!!! Because of people with a brain capacity like this, I´ll probably have to skip season 2, just because I don´t want to feel that I am not stupid enough for the game. Goddamn! If I am not entirely mistaken, S&M basically spell out that the CHEESE MUST BE IN THE OFFICE somewhere. So, how freaking hard can it be to find a fucking closet and open the door?
Now come on, are people actually that stupid nowadays?
Hey hey, I clearly said you can't take my anecdote as clear market research.
But in defense...
One thing was that the person was getting accustomed to the controls and figuring out that the little box in the corner was the inventory and that you can use the inventory, another thing was that the person didn't think to touch any of the doors, since Sam and Max said the cheese must be in the office. And then there's the whole point of making the cheese become Swiss cheese...
Clearly experienced point and click adventure gamers know right away how to operate everything, and to click on everything.
I must bring out my tired analogy again: Think of introducing a Half-Life fan to Halo, they can clearly pick up the controls and strategy in a very short time, compared to a person that has never played a FPS before. This is why the first levels of both Halo and Half-Life, and nearly every other FPS, has simple levels that introduce you to the gameplay controls, mechanics, and strategy.
I bet that even Halo 3 will have easier beginning levels. They could just assume that everybody will already know how to play it, but they don't, and they somehow sell more copies that way.
Update: And just thinking about how 30 minutes is a very long time, I feel like I must have exaggerated, so I'll just revise my time assessment to "it took the person a very very long time, about 5-10 times longer than it took me."
Well, at least those "few" offhand comments about episode 1 were absolutely true. So, these same people suddenly can´t evaluate episode 2´s difficulty correctly?
If you have problems with episode 1's difficulty expect to have the same problems with episode 2's, because they're the same difficulty level (I found). I think her point was that the game's difficulty or lack of it doesn't detract from the fact that it's very enjoyable.
Well, at least those "few" offhand comments about episode 1 were absolutely true. So, these same people suddenly can´t evaluate episode 2´s difficulty correctly?
Yippeee!!! Because of people with a brain capacity like this, I´ll probably have to skip season 2, just because I don´t want to feel that I am not stupid enough for the game. Goddamn! If I am not entirely mistaken, S&M basically spell out that the CHEESE MUST BE IN THE OFFICE somewhere. So, how freaking hard can it be to find a fucking closet and open the door?
Now come on, are people actually that stupid nowadays?
This is inappropriate on a number of levels. Let's watch the language and avoid insulting others' friends and family, okay? I've warned you about the language before, so please try to control yourself.
I don't think you and I share the same definition of "dumbed down" especially when you try to compare your issues with the games' difficulty to making movies or other art forms more mainstream. Making a Sam & Max game is about being true to the characters, getting the sense of humor right, capturing the essence of the comics, etc.
I think Udvarnoky makes a really good point here, if anything Telltale's rendition of Sam and Max is definitely less dumbed down than the TV show, which had no guns (don't remember if HtR had guns) and definitely has "smarter" humor in the form of societal commentary/parody and dialog-based humor compared to a lot of the one-off sight gags that cartoon shows rely on so much.
I don't want to get into another debate about the difficulty.. I think I've said all I can about that topic.. but Telltale has said they haven't made the sam and max episodes more difficult because they want to reach a wider audience..their philosophy is to attract "casual gamers".. It would be interesting to know what percentage of these "casual gamers" bought culture shock compared to those who had played hit the road or past lucasarts adventures..
I think Udvarnoky makes a really good point here, if anything Telltale's rendition of Sam and Max is definitely less dumbed down than the TV show, which had no guns (don't remember if HtR had guns) and definitely has "smarter" humor in the form of societal commentary/parody and dialog-based humor compared to a lot of the one-off sight gags that cartoon shows rely on so much.
Ah, now I remember why I had this idea--for those of you who bought The Age of S & M: A Sam & Max Sketchbook, near the middle of the book is a sampling of all the "dumbing down" that was required for the TV show. Seems like every page of every script had problems...
A sampling:
Page 1: Please do NOT show Max biting down on a battery while standing in water.
Page 2: Please do NOT show Max wielding an axe.
Page 18: Please delete the "Holy" from Sam's "Hanna(?) hold the phone."
Page 5: As previously noted, it will not be acceptable after Zeus' "Slayer of Uranus" line for Sam to say "I had a great response for that, but the network made us take it out."
Page 19: Please delete or substitute for Sam's reference to everything that "sucks or blows." Also, on this page, please substitute a generic cookie for "Fig Newtons." And also do not show a "soiled mattress." Please do not have Sam sniff and inspect the mattress.
So much unintentional comedy from network censors.
Update: And just thinking about how 30 minutes is a very long time, I feel like I must have exaggerated, so I'll just revise my time assessment to "it took the person a very very long time, about 5-10 times longer than it took me."
Well, I exaggerated a little too. Of course newcomers have to get used to the gameplay first. Also, there´s alot to examine in that office too, so I understand that it´s not like he was actively seeking cheese for half an hour. Anyway, I found it quite funny that it took a long time to just open a door to find cheese.
Also, I tried to make a funny remark about me being too smart for the game, I have read a couple of comments about how gamers don´t want to feel stupid when they are playing, on the other hand I bet that a lot of old adventure fans feel that the game is actually too dumbed down for them, just to please those casual gamers who are searching for instant gratification. Sure, they may find a new favourite, but as well they may forget S&M after season 1 or maybe even in between episodes of season 1. While telltale wants to please these dudes, the moving market, they kinda forget the solid fanbase that has been waiting for the game since HtR. I feel a little disappointed. Otherwise the game was absolutely great and that´s why I even bother to bitch about it. They might have as well made it a perfect game.
But I am sure telltale shouldn´t worry too much about opinions like mine. Solid fanbase will buy the game anyway even if it´s too easy for them, many casual gamers will buy the game and enjoy the fact that they won´t get stuck. Money flows in through doors and windows and they can smoke fine cigars and drink the finest bourbon in a limo. There´s naked Playboy-bunnies everywhere and they can bathe in champagne... Hehe, or that would have been the scenario if they had developed Half Life 2 or something.
What I am trying to say that they´ll probably sell more games if the difficulty is easy. Fans will buy it anyway, as well as casual gamers. So, why should they even care? But, I can say that I won´t follow to the next season if the game is aimed for those casual gamers, like it or not. I want challenge and fancy package (all the other stuff, like humour, dialogue, funniness) is not enough for me to buy a game. Yes, if I want a game, I buy a game, not a remotely interactive story.
This is inappropriate on a number of levels. Let's watch the language and avoid insulting others' friends and family, okay? I've warned you about the language before, so please try to control yourself.
Sorry, sometimes I just get a little carried away. I might as well apologise. Even though I might express myself extremely it doesn´t mean that I actually wholly mean it, you know. Exaggeration, provocation and stuff, partly with a tongue in cheek but with always a grain of truth hidden somewhere. Sometimes I forget though that people don´t know me and might not understand, and that´s my fault. I bark, but I don´t want to bite and hurt.
but Telltale has said they haven't made the sam and max episodes more difficult because they want to reach a wider audience..their philosophy is to attract "casual gamers"...
In fact, many of you have already correctly guessed that we aim to gradually increase the difficulty over time, so be patient. As it happens, we just finished the design of Episode 5 the other day, and when I played it in my mind, I thought to myself, "Pretty challenging."
So, games will be getting harder as season progresses, as many of us assumed.
so why is episode 2 easier than episode 1 as some reviewers have stated?
It's about the same difficulty as episode 1. Some people might find it a bit easier or a bit harder, but there's no significant departure in either direction in my view. And don't forget that when episode 1 was released and the criticisms about difficulty were being voiced, episode 2 was probably well beyond fundamental changes. I'm sure that by episode 5 there will be a more noticeable shift like Brendan tells us.
All that said, it should be pretty clear by now where Telltale stands on the topic of difficulty in a general sense, and anyone who seriously expects some of Hit the Road's illogical puzzles by the season's end should stop deluding themselves.
I'm trying to stay spoiler free. Can you quote some of these reviews that state that episode 2 is easier than episode 1?
I'll try to go through these reviews for you and remain spoiler free, highlighting whatever they say about difficulty level, and I'll try to be objective for once :
This adventure game is about as traditional as they come, with a central crisis only seeing resolution once a series of smaller and somewhat related puzzles have been solved. Objects are collected, dialogue trees are traversed and your inventory is applied to the environment. Those are the mechanics of the actual game and described as such, they don't sound awfully entertaining.
A great game will hide all of that though, making it disappear in a puff of smoke while you become entranced by the plot and characters. You'll be pleased to learn then, that Sam & Max is a great game.
As was the case with Culture Shock, (we should have just reprinted that review, it seems) the puzzles in Situation: Comedy are immensely fun and completely logical ... at least within Sam & Max's twisted universe. To apply the puzzles to a real-world situation is to invite madness, so it really is a testament to the game's impeccable presentation and sense of humor that you essentially learn to think like a crazy person -- and quickly. The difficulty still errs on the side of easy, especially for veteran adventures, but it never feels like the game is holding your hand. That would be gross.
Sometimes less can be more, but in the case of Situation: Comedy less is just that; less. Specifically, there are fewer puzzles, items, and dialogs, and the puzzles themselves are easier.
Don’t expect much of a mental challenge, though. Instead, take this new series for what it is; a chance to watch and listen to Sam & Max in action, and help them out a bit along the way.
It’s as brief and easy as the previous episode, but overall it’s more palatable.
The gameplay aspect of Situation Comedy is a nice refresher on adventure games with plenty to click on, but without the detailed pixel hunting that can be the source of much frustration. I don't mind having to search a bit, but when I'm trying to locate a point that's between one blade of grass and the next it's too much, which isn't a problem here.
Over all the difficulty of some of the puzzles could be increased, but the variety of gameplay is there and the game was enjoyable and definitely worth the price of download.
Like the first episode, this episode lacks lengthy gameplay and mind-bending puzzles. Storytelling remains the focus, and Sam & Max deliver great one-liners.
Simple trial-and-error by players solves most of the puzzles. There might be the occasional difficult puzzle, but answers are found in plain sight.
Of course the puzzles are also suitably silly. Nothing is spared the silly treatment. A lot of the time you couldn't possibly not laugh, especially when you can see what's coming. The puzzles are never too difficult and, you guessed it, involve I]information that is spoiling[/I, and there is again a mixture of inventory and conversational puzzles. Culture Shock gave us an amusing end puzzle relying on picking the right conversational response and in Situation: Comedy there's a couple more little gems, a kind of a signature evolving in this latest Sam & Max Series.
So listen carefully to pick up the cues, hints abound in the numerous comments and conversations. Some of them really hit you over the head and are worth a laugh in their own right.
It's a bit shorter than Episode 1 (mostly due to slightly easier puzzles), but the script is much sharper and funnier this time around, which makes it a more than adequate trade-off. Telltale Games is finally hitting its stride with this series and we couldn't be happier.
Also, the puzzles are generally pretty easy to figure out if you have some experience with this style of point and click graphic adventures. There may be a few sections that trip you up (such as the trial and error-style game play required for [a puzzle]), but most players will be able to figure out the puzzles in short order.
I must note that most of the time, these are very short parts of these reviews, and most of the time they are spending time talking about the plot and humor.
Personally I found it DID detract from the enjoyment, mostly because I found the puzzles patronising.
As an old school point and click veteran I am used to off the wall and skewed logic, hell I completed all of the ones I played before I even knew what a walkthrough WAS. And that list included Discworld I and II, Maniac Mansion, Dune, All the MI games, HTR, Full Throttle and DoTT. I guess I just kinda expected more challenge from these Episodes as the Original HTR was definately more on the Hard end of the difficulty scale, along with the Discworld ones, though those were easier if you had read the books.
Hmmm where could there possibly be cheese....
In the rather glaring obvious closet perchance?
Egads there it is! My word what a smart chappie I must be to have outfoxed this so cunning of quandaries.
But forsooth, the rat wants swiss cheese. Whatever shall I do.
Hmmm well swiss cheese has holes. What do I have that makes holes...
BOWLING BALL! No wait too big. What else do I have. Hmm this is so hard the number of items I have that could possibly make holes borders on the mindboggling, I may have to get out my calculator to boggle such figures.
Oh wait... there the first thing in my Inventory! A gun! That sure does make holes.
Huzzah! Puzzle completed, I R GEENEUS!
I am a compulsive gamefaqs user, if an adventure game lets me alt+tab, I find it hard to avoid finding a walkthrough when I get seriously stuck. I'm a veteran of the genre, but sometimes a puzzle or pixel-hunt will catch me offguard and completely stymie my progress. In the case of Sam n' Max, that puzzle was the "take out the soda poppers" one. It just never occured to me that I could pull someone over for money. So, after trying a million different things, I gamefaqs-ed it and went back to finish the game from there. Doesn't make me stupid, just means I let a game feature pass my notice.
Could have been the same with the Cheese-Hunting 18-Year Old. He might have tried to click open the door once and the game registered it as "walk here" (which I've seen happen countless times), and so he thought the door wasn't meant to open.
Or maybe he was entranced by all the shiny colors. mmmm.... shiny....
Hehe. I wanted to see how my brother would do palying Sam & Max ep.1. Well, I had to basically translate the game for him because he doesn´t understand English, I tried to avoid giving puzzles away for him, though in some places it was unavoidable. Hey, no one can expect an 8 year old to understand psychiatric terminology and psychoanalysis! So, this test isn´t totally trustworthy. But I paid special attention to not tell him what to do and it´s not like I told him what answers to choose or something, just outlined what he was supposed to do in that psychoanalysis puzzle.
Anyway, the game is definitely too easy if an 8 year old boy from Finland, who doesn´t understand English, can complete the game in one evening.
Hmmm where could there possibly be cheese....
In the rather glaring obvious closet perchance?
Egads there it is! My word what a smart chappie I must be to have outfoxed this so cunning of quandaries.
But forsooth, the rat wants swiss cheese. Whatever shall I do.
Hmmm well swiss cheese has holes. What do I have that makes holes...
BOWLING BALL! No wait too big. What else do I have. Hmm this is so hard the number of items I have that could possibly make holes borders on the mindboggling, I may have to get out my calculator to boggle such figures.
Oh wait... there the first thing in my Inventory! A gun! That sure does make holes.
Huzzah! Puzzle completed, I R GEENEUS!
That was the first puzzle of the game, and also the demo puzzle. The game designers intentionally made it easy.
You don't like to feel like the designers are patronizing you? Fine, then don't patronize them by assuming they aren't capable of deciding when to put in an easy puzzle and when to put in a hard one.
People who want crazy, obscure, mindbending puzzles have plenty of other options. Go play Rhem.
And what if i want to play logical, entertaining and challenging puzzles? Which game should i play then?
If you got a wife, you already have it at home.
And if i want something that, with a simple button, peel instantly a clementine for 5 bucks? What ? I want everything right now for a low price ? Nonsense.
People who want crazy, obscure, mindbending puzzles have plenty of other options. Go play Rhem.
And if I want to play a game that even an 8 year old can complete in a couple of hours, I should play S&M? You know, even my brother said that it was an easy game. I didn´t even have to ask him, neither did I give a hint of my thoughts in any way, he just expressed himself without asking. "Hey, this is a pretty easy game." I liked especially how he completed the antenna "puzzle".
"You need some sort of an antenna."
"Antenna... hmmm"
(literally five seconds later)
"Oooh, antenna! It´s in the office! This is a pretty easy game."
Now, let me ask a question. Why is that "puzzle" even in the game since it´s so obvious? Does it serve a purpose? Is there reason why that helmet is missing a piece since the player just has to go get it?
I am feeling that I will really skip season two. Not because I didn´t enjoy episode one or S&M in general but because I really don´t like dumbing down. If you want to please the masses and only the masses with remotely interactive interactive storys then fine, but that just shows what really matters: money. Not an all around enjoyable game, just money.
I'll try to go through these reviews for you and remain spoiler free, highlighting whatever they say about difficulty level, and I'll try to be objective for once
(snip)
I must note that most of the time, these are very short parts of these reviews, and most of the time they are spending time talking about the plot and humor.
Thank you! I really appreciate the effort. It seems the difficulty is about the same as Culture Shock, and as Udvarnoky says, ep 2 was already well on the way when the ep1 feedback started rolling in, and if Brendan says the difficulty starts to ramp up as the season progresses that's good enough for me not to be moaning and threatening to abandon the series / season / company.
People who want crazy, obscure, mindbending puzzles have plenty of other options.
Everytime People say they want the episodes to be more challenging, someone says who wants crazy obscure puzzles..thats not what people are asking for and its not a fair argument..
To tell another story my 7 year old nephew wanted to play sam & max..and I said no its too hard..you will need someone to play with you and I'm too busy..but he was persistent so I loaded it up for him and went away.. I came back half an hour later expecting him to be still in the office.. he'd solved the office puzzle..done the driving one and the soda popper puzzle @ bosco's :eek: :eek:
What else could I do? They might actually take the threats seriously...
Look I'm sure they are taking the feedback seriously.. The real problem here was their 6 episode schedule.. They should have released the pilot maybe 4 months before episode 2..so they got the feedback before beginning on the remaining episodes.. episode 5 is supposed to be more challenging.. the problem is we have to go through the 4 easier episodes that theyve already done to get to it..
Actually, I am well aware of that. Luckily the game is otherwise so good that maybe I can handle three easier episodes...
On the other hand, I wouldn´t want to see Telltale lose those casual gamers if they think the game gets too hard for them. So, probably a possibility to choose a difficulty level is the only solution to please both types of gamers and not lose customers for difficulty reasons.
If you want to please the masses and only the masses with remotely interactive interactive storys then fine, but that just shows what really matters: money. Not an all around enjoyable game, just money.
Damndest thing, I used to think something being mainstream and all about money had to do with evidence supporting either, but now I know that the label applies simply to anything Kunkku-Antti dislikes. You learn something new every day!
(Also, had Sam & Max had the "correct" puzzles, then Telltale would of course not be a company trying to stay in business but rather the selfless savior of the adventure genre whose employees are willing to put their kids in the orphanage and offer themselves as human sacrifices to prevent being "mainstream," yadda yadda. Also remember that no one is a genuine Sam & Max fan unless they routinely switch between these two wildly different opinions of the company based on every whim they get while playing a new game.)
Of course money matters. It´s not like a company can totally ignore the market aspect of gaming and totally concentrate on the artistic side. But dumbing down games just to make it appeal more people is pretty much being all (or mostly) about the money in my book. "Let´s maximize the profits, those who complain and are already fans are going to buy it anyway so who are we going to lose?"
I don´t hate anything just because it´s mainstream, it´s all about the contents of the game/music/movie/any other product that really matters. But I hate it when products are made to please wider audiences by dumbing them down. I don´t like the compromise side of being mainstream. (OK, compromise might not be the right word, maybe neglecting a demanding part of audience would be more appropriate). I see that a lot of great ideas get lost just because game developers or any other dudes in entertainment industry are afraid to include them just because they fear that they won´t maximize their audience.
On the other hand, they might as well label their game "interactive story". What is an adventure game without puzzles?
Unfortunately thats the reality.. LucasArts never released Freelance Police because they thought it wouldn't sell.. Telltale wont come out with a game of comparitive difficulty to hit the road, day of the tentacle or grim fandango because they think it won't sell enough.. Who are they making the game for? they want to please the gametap audience(many who dont play adventure games) they want to get in casual gamers(a new large game market online) Now with investors giving telltale millions of dollars..and them a small company having to pay 30 or so workers..they cant afford for their games not to be successful.. They don't want to make a game that will only appeal to a small number of people and then have them go out of business, and frankly I don't want to see that either. So fair enough.
That does mean I may not get the game I want..and all those who grew up on the lucasarts adventures may not either..but that's life :cool: I think if they made somethin with hit the road's level of difficulty it would sell just as much..but they don't.. So if they make easier games to appeal to the masses that's their call. Its their company that's on the line, not mine.
Now you are stating the obvious. I am pretty sure that most of the people here know what the situation is.
All I am asking is that they would include a difficulty level selector with those millions of dollars. I am not asking them to make the game unplayable for casual gamers. I am just asking for a challenge for those who want it and for those who don´t want it the game would be easier. But that might take an extra week of brainstorming and coding per episode and surely I can´t expect them to do that.
Of course money matters. It´s not like a company can totally ignore the market aspect of gaming and totally concentrate on the artistic side. But dumbing down games just to make it appeal more people is pretty much being all (or mostly) about the money in my book. "Let´s maximize the profits, those who complain and are already fans are going to buy it anyway so who are we going to lose?"
Your definition of dumbing down sucks and is impossible to agree with. Do you really believe that Telltale considers their design philosophy an artistic compromise? Sounds to me like it's something they believe in when they talk about it. You can like it or you can not like it, but calling it an issue of business over art based on absolutely nothing but your own perception of a good puzzle is lame. In fact, it's really not something you can say without coming off as an idiot unless you were told as much by someone at Telltale. I mean, how do you even infer something like that from it???? It's insane. Could be that Telltale considers non-logical puzzles to be sloppy design, and wish to avoid it completely. You DO NOT have to agree with them, whatever their reasons are, but you do have to come up with criticisms that don't imply your ability to read people's minds.
Also notice how in focusing on the puzzles you ignore the fact that Telltale is an independent startup making wacky, episodic, story-driven games sold through a still unconventional delivery system, which put together is a pretty novel (and completely not mainstream) thing right now given/necessitated by the current climate of the industry, and they've done all this without sacrificing the edgier aspects of any of the licenses thus far, particularly Sam & Max. Please word your complaints differently, because the next time someone calls something mainstream just because they don't like it I may in fact bash in my monitor with my face in a fit of rage. Really, describe the puzzles in the most biting, caustic, mean, profanity-laden way you can imagine, I won't mind, but I beg of you not to call it mainstream just because you think the word sounds good.
On the other hand, they might as well label their game "interactive story". What is an adventure game without puzzles?
An adventure game by a definition different than your own, maybe? Also note that I don't think Telltale ever explicitly called their games adventure games. Lots of people, like myself, call them such because of their story-driven nature and the fact that they're point 'n click (which is admittedly not an adventure game law but it does make it resemble a lot of the classic adventures more). They also currently do in fact have puzzles, whether you like them or not.
All I am asking is that they would include a difficulty level selector with those millions of dollars.
Oh, that's right, they have millions of dollars! Wait, I never read that... But it's got to be true, because after all you said it.
I want you guys to know that despite my bitterness I really do get what you're trying to say, that you want puzzles that are much more challenging but not necessarily illogical. The problem is you're doing it a way that comes off as annoying and arrogant.
Now you are stating the obvious. I am pretty sure that most of the people here know what the situation is.
All I am asking is that they would include a difficulty level selector with those millions of dollars. I am not asking them to make the game unplayable for casual gamers. I am just asking for a challenge for those who want it and for those who don´t want it the game would be easier. But that might take an extra week of brainstorming and coding per episode and surely I can´t expect them to do that.
I think that would be a good idea to have two levels of difficulty..but do you really think its that easy to implement? Telltale's puzzles are intrinsically linked with the plot and the story.. how can you design puzzles at two levels of difficulty and tell the story at the same time..
Drop a bowling ball and knock a soda popper unconscious.
That would be the easy puzzle.
Now, basically they would have to expand this puzzle a little bit. I came up with this after thinking for a while how the game could have been a little harder. It didn´t take too long.
Now, what if Sam doesn´t want to drop Lou because he suspects that some dude might stole it while he is upstairs? Well, Bosco could sell some extra-strong rubber bands in his store along with a heap of other useless junk (just to distract the player). OK, Sam notices that the rubber band won´t fit into Lou´s holes, it´s just a little too thick (after all it´s a rubber band and it´s, how should I put it, "twice fold" since it doesn´t have ends). Surely he could fit it in that hole if he could break it and make it more of a rubber string. But it´s extra strong and he just can´t break it with his hands. So, what if he walked outside and put the string on street sings on both sides of the road. When a car drives through, the band breaks (if you put a couple of extra bands there at the same time you could make a giant car-sling). So, now you have a string, and it fits into the hole but now there´s some empty space in that hole. Luckily Bosco sells extra fast cement in his store and you just have to get some water. Sadly, the water cooler is malfunctioning, the fish who lives there has been stuck in the tap and therefore you can´t just take water straight away. Well, you have a big gun so why shouldn´t you use it. Just shoot a hole into the water cooler, combine rubber string, Lou, cement and water and voila, you have a bowling ball yoyo.
If you want to please the masses and only the masses with remotely interactive interactive storys then fine, but that just shows what really matters: money. Not an all around enjoyable game, just money.
So, if you want people other than a small dedicated core of hardcore adventure gamers to play and enjoy your game (which those same fans have been saying for years is a franchise that could and should have mass appeal but is always held back), you're selling out? That doesn't entirely follow for me. I'm a pretty big fan of the first couple episodes actually being completable by a regular guy without having to feel like he's stupid and ramping it up, and as has been said, that will be happening to an increasing degree as things go on. Jake's recommendation: chill out! (unless you're also still bothered by a potential lack of humor, a potential to not stay true to the characters, the possibility that the voice actors will be bad, and the thought the game might be in 3D... all things that much hand-wringing was spent on, but turned out pretty well in the end)
(unless you're also still bothered by a potential lack of humor, a potential to not stay true to the characters, the possibility that the voice actors will be bad, and the thought the game might be in 3D... all things that much hand-wringing was spent on, but turned out pretty well in the end)
Hey! If you had fucked up those things you surely would have heard it already and then the difficulty level wouldn´t even have been an issue worth mentioning!
Like I said I don´t have a problem with new gamers being able to play the game, but I just wish there would be some challenge for us more experienced dudes. Difficult levels or something.
well, i'm pretty satisfied with how the game played out.
if they can keep up the good jokes (my fav: try the dry plant in the office, max's response had me fallin off my chair) everything is good.
but, hell yeah, those old S&M HTR times are gone, man.
no more ball of twine/fishmagnet/helicoper puzzles (my fav from HTR)
hope they make enough money to keep S&M "light" goin for a few seasons.
YOU HAVE MY MONEY !
Comments
Hey hey, I clearly said you can't take my anecdote as clear market research.
But in defense...
One thing was that the person was getting accustomed to the controls and figuring out that the little box in the corner was the inventory and that you can use the inventory, another thing was that the person didn't think to touch any of the doors, since Sam and Max said the cheese must be in the office. And then there's the whole point of making the cheese become Swiss cheese...
Clearly experienced point and click adventure gamers know right away how to operate everything, and to click on everything.
I must bring out my tired analogy again: Think of introducing a Half-Life fan to Halo, they can clearly pick up the controls and strategy in a very short time, compared to a person that has never played a FPS before. This is why the first levels of both Halo and Half-Life, and nearly every other FPS, has simple levels that introduce you to the gameplay controls, mechanics, and strategy.
I bet that even Halo 3 will have easier beginning levels. They could just assume that everybody will already know how to play it, but they don't, and they somehow sell more copies that way.
Update: And just thinking about how 30 minutes is a very long time, I feel like I must have exaggerated, so I'll just revise my time assessment to "it took the person a very very long time, about 5-10 times longer than it took me."
If you have problems with episode 1's difficulty expect to have the same problems with episode 2's, because they're the same difficulty level (I found). I think her point was that the game's difficulty or lack of it doesn't detract from the fact that it's very enjoyable.
This is inappropriate on a number of levels. Let's watch the language and avoid insulting others' friends and family, okay? I've warned you about the language before, so please try to control yourself.
I think Udvarnoky makes a really good point here, if anything Telltale's rendition of Sam and Max is definitely less dumbed down than the TV show, which had no guns (don't remember if HtR had guns) and definitely has "smarter" humor in the form of societal commentary/parody and dialog-based humor compared to a lot of the one-off sight gags that cartoon shows rely on so much.
Ah, now I remember why I had this idea--for those of you who bought The Age of S & M: A Sam & Max Sketchbook, near the middle of the book is a sampling of all the "dumbing down" that was required for the TV show. Seems like every page of every script had problems...
A sampling:
So much unintentional comedy from network censors.
Of course, those intent to do so can always take one sentence of any review and spin it in a negative direction.
Well, I exaggerated a little too. Of course newcomers have to get used to the gameplay first. Also, there´s alot to examine in that office too, so I understand that it´s not like he was actively seeking cheese for half an hour. Anyway, I found it quite funny that it took a long time to just open a door to find cheese.
Also, I tried to make a funny remark about me being too smart for the game, I have read a couple of comments about how gamers don´t want to feel stupid when they are playing, on the other hand I bet that a lot of old adventure fans feel that the game is actually too dumbed down for them, just to please those casual gamers who are searching for instant gratification. Sure, they may find a new favourite, but as well they may forget S&M after season 1 or maybe even in between episodes of season 1. While telltale wants to please these dudes, the moving market, they kinda forget the solid fanbase that has been waiting for the game since HtR. I feel a little disappointed. Otherwise the game was absolutely great and that´s why I even bother to bitch about it. They might have as well made it a perfect game.
But I am sure telltale shouldn´t worry too much about opinions like mine. Solid fanbase will buy the game anyway even if it´s too easy for them, many casual gamers will buy the game and enjoy the fact that they won´t get stuck. Money flows in through doors and windows and they can smoke fine cigars and drink the finest bourbon in a limo. There´s naked Playboy-bunnies everywhere and they can bathe in champagne... Hehe, or that would have been the scenario if they had developed Half Life 2 or something.
What I am trying to say that they´ll probably sell more games if the difficulty is easy. Fans will buy it anyway, as well as casual gamers. So, why should they even care? But, I can say that I won´t follow to the next season if the game is aimed for those casual gamers, like it or not. I want challenge and fancy package (all the other stuff, like humour, dialogue, funniness) is not enough for me to buy a game. Yes, if I want a game, I buy a game, not a remotely interactive story.
Sorry, sometimes I just get a little carried away. I might as well apologise. Even though I might express myself extremely it doesn´t mean that I actually wholly mean it, you know. Exaggeration, provocation and stuff, partly with a tongue in cheek but with always a grain of truth hidden somewhere. Sometimes I forget though that people don´t know me and might not understand, and that´s my fault. I bark, but I don´t want to bite and hurt.
So, games will be getting harder as season progresses, as many of us assumed.
so why is episode 2 easier than episode 1 as some reviewers have stated?
anyway heres some more situation comedy reviews for ya
http://pcgames.gwn.com/reviews/gamereview.php/id/1142/p/1/title/Sam_and_Max_-_Season_1_Episode_2_Situation_Comedy.html
http://www.strategyinformer.com/pc/sammaxepisode2situationcomedy/review.html
http://www.adventuregamers.com/article/id,711/
http://www.gamedaily.com/sam-and-max-episode-2-situation-comedy/pc/game-reviews/5672?articleID=40588
http://www.quandaryland.com/jsp/dispArticle.jsp?index=796
http://au.pc.gamespy.com/pc/sam-max-episode-2/751873p1.html
http://www.defunctgames.com/shows.php?id=courant-80
It's about the same difficulty as episode 1. Some people might find it a bit easier or a bit harder, but there's no significant departure in either direction in my view. And don't forget that when episode 1 was released and the criticisms about difficulty were being voiced, episode 2 was probably well beyond fundamental changes. I'm sure that by episode 5 there will be a more noticeable shift like Brendan tells us.
All that said, it should be pretty clear by now where Telltale stands on the topic of difficulty in a general sense, and anyone who seriously expects some of Hit the Road's illogical puzzles by the season's end should stop deluding themselves.
I'll try to go through these reviews for you and remain spoiler free, highlighting whatever they say about difficulty level, and I'll try to be objective for once
http://www.joystiq.com/2006/12/22/joystiq-review-sam-and-max-situation-comedy-pc/
http://pcgames.gwn.com/reviews/gamereview.php/id/1142/p/1/title/Sam_and_Max_-_Season_1_Episode_2_Situation_Comedy.html
http://www.strategyinformer.com/pc/sammaxepisode2situationcomedy/review.html
http://www.adventuregamers.com/article/id,711/
http://www.gamedaily.com/sam-and-max-episode-2-situation-comedy/pc/game-reviews/5672?articleID=40588
http://www.quandaryland.com/jsp/dispArticle.jsp?index=796
http://au.pc.gamespy.com/pc/sam-max-episode-2/751873p1.html
http://www.defunctgames.com/shows.php?id=courant-80
I must note that most of the time, these are very short parts of these reviews, and most of the time they are spending time talking about the plot and humor.
As an old school point and click veteran I am used to off the wall and skewed logic, hell I completed all of the ones I played before I even knew what a walkthrough WAS. And that list included Discworld I and II, Maniac Mansion, Dune, All the MI games, HTR, Full Throttle and DoTT. I guess I just kinda expected more challenge from these Episodes as the Original HTR was definately more on the Hard end of the difficulty scale, along with the Discworld ones, though those were easier if you had read the books.
Hmmm where could there possibly be cheese....
In the rather glaring obvious closet perchance?
Egads there it is! My word what a smart chappie I must be to have outfoxed this so cunning of quandaries.
But forsooth, the rat wants swiss cheese. Whatever shall I do.
Hmmm well swiss cheese has holes. What do I have that makes holes...
BOWLING BALL! No wait too big. What else do I have. Hmm this is so hard the number of items I have that could possibly make holes borders on the mindboggling, I may have to get out my calculator to boggle such figures.
Oh wait... there the first thing in my Inventory! A gun! That sure does make holes.
Huzzah! Puzzle completed, I R GEENEUS!
Could have been the same with the Cheese-Hunting 18-Year Old. He might have tried to click open the door once and the game registered it as "walk here" (which I've seen happen countless times), and so he thought the door wasn't meant to open.
Or maybe he was entranced by all the shiny colors. mmmm.... shiny....
Anyway, the game is definitely too easy if an 8 year old boy from Finland, who doesn´t understand English, can complete the game in one evening.
WARNING: GIANT NASTY SPOILERS FOR EPISODE 2 FOLLOW! READ AT YOUR OWN RISK!
That was the first puzzle of the game, and also the demo puzzle. The game designers intentionally made it easy.
You don't like to feel like the designers are patronizing you? Fine, then don't patronize them by assuming they aren't capable of deciding when to put in an easy puzzle and when to put in a hard one.
People who want crazy, obscure, mindbending puzzles have plenty of other options. Go play Rhem.
If you got a wife, you already have it at home.
And if i want something that, with a simple button, peel instantly a clementine for 5 bucks? What ? I want everything right now for a low price ? Nonsense.
And if I want to play a game that even an 8 year old can complete in a couple of hours, I should play S&M? You know, even my brother said that it was an easy game. I didn´t even have to ask him, neither did I give a hint of my thoughts in any way, he just expressed himself without asking. "Hey, this is a pretty easy game." I liked especially how he completed the antenna "puzzle".
"You need some sort of an antenna."
"Antenna... hmmm"
(literally five seconds later)
"Oooh, antenna! It´s in the office! This is a pretty easy game."
Now, let me ask a question. Why is that "puzzle" even in the game since it´s so obvious? Does it serve a purpose? Is there reason why that helmet is missing a piece since the player just has to go get it?
I am feeling that I will really skip season two. Not because I didn´t enjoy episode one or S&M in general but because I really don´t like dumbing down. If you want to please the masses and only the masses with remotely interactive interactive storys then fine, but that just shows what really matters: money. Not an all around enjoyable game, just money.
Thank you! I really appreciate the effort. It seems the difficulty is about the same as Culture Shock, and as Udvarnoky says, ep 2 was already well on the way when the ep1 feedback started rolling in, and if Brendan says the difficulty starts to ramp up as the season progresses that's good enough for me not to be moaning and threatening to abandon the series / season / company.
What else could I do? They might actually take the threats seriously...
Everytime People say they want the episodes to be more challenging, someone says who wants crazy obscure puzzles..thats not what people are asking for and its not a fair argument..
To tell another story my 7 year old nephew wanted to play sam & max..and I said no its too hard..you will need someone to play with you and I'm too busy..but he was persistent so I loaded it up for him and went away.. I came back half an hour later expecting him to be still in the office.. he'd solved the office puzzle..done the driving one and the soda popper puzzle @ bosco's :eek: :eek:
Look I'm sure they are taking the feedback seriously.. The real problem here was their 6 episode schedule.. They should have released the pilot maybe 4 months before episode 2..so they got the feedback before beginning on the remaining episodes.. episode 5 is supposed to be more challenging.. the problem is we have to go through the 4 easier episodes that theyve already done to get to it..
On the other hand, I wouldn´t want to see Telltale lose those casual gamers if they think the game gets too hard for them. So, probably a possibility to choose a difficulty level is the only solution to please both types of gamers and not lose customers for difficulty reasons.
Damndest thing, I used to think something being mainstream and all about money had to do with evidence supporting either, but now I know that the label applies simply to anything Kunkku-Antti dislikes. You learn something new every day!
(Also, had Sam & Max had the "correct" puzzles, then Telltale would of course not be a company trying to stay in business but rather the selfless savior of the adventure genre whose employees are willing to put their kids in the orphanage and offer themselves as human sacrifices to prevent being "mainstream," yadda yadda. Also remember that no one is a genuine Sam & Max fan unless they routinely switch between these two wildly different opinions of the company based on every whim they get while playing a new game.)
I don´t hate anything just because it´s mainstream, it´s all about the contents of the game/music/movie/any other product that really matters. But I hate it when products are made to please wider audiences by dumbing them down. I don´t like the compromise side of being mainstream. (OK, compromise might not be the right word, maybe neglecting a demanding part of audience would be more appropriate). I see that a lot of great ideas get lost just because game developers or any other dudes in entertainment industry are afraid to include them just because they fear that they won´t maximize their audience.
On the other hand, they might as well label their game "interactive story". What is an adventure game without puzzles?
That does mean I may not get the game I want..and all those who grew up on the lucasarts adventures may not either..but that's life :cool: I think if they made somethin with hit the road's level of difficulty it would sell just as much..but they don't.. So if they make easier games to appeal to the masses that's their call. Its their company that's on the line, not mine.
All I am asking is that they would include a difficulty level selector with those millions of dollars. I am not asking them to make the game unplayable for casual gamers. I am just asking for a challenge for those who want it and for those who don´t want it the game would be easier. But that might take an extra week of brainstorming and coding per episode and surely I can´t expect them to do that.
Your definition of dumbing down sucks and is impossible to agree with. Do you really believe that Telltale considers their design philosophy an artistic compromise? Sounds to me like it's something they believe in when they talk about it. You can like it or you can not like it, but calling it an issue of business over art based on absolutely nothing but your own perception of a good puzzle is lame. In fact, it's really not something you can say without coming off as an idiot unless you were told as much by someone at Telltale. I mean, how do you even infer something like that from it???? It's insane. Could be that Telltale considers non-logical puzzles to be sloppy design, and wish to avoid it completely. You DO NOT have to agree with them, whatever their reasons are, but you do have to come up with criticisms that don't imply your ability to read people's minds.
Also notice how in focusing on the puzzles you ignore the fact that Telltale is an independent startup making wacky, episodic, story-driven games sold through a still unconventional delivery system, which put together is a pretty novel (and completely not mainstream) thing right now given/necessitated by the current climate of the industry, and they've done all this without sacrificing the edgier aspects of any of the licenses thus far, particularly Sam & Max. Please word your complaints differently, because the next time someone calls something mainstream just because they don't like it I may in fact bash in my monitor with my face in a fit of rage. Really, describe the puzzles in the most biting, caustic, mean, profanity-laden way you can imagine, I won't mind, but I beg of you not to call it mainstream just because you think the word sounds good.
An adventure game by a definition different than your own, maybe? Also note that I don't think Telltale ever explicitly called their games adventure games. Lots of people, like myself, call them such because of their story-driven nature and the fact that they're point 'n click (which is admittedly not an adventure game law but it does make it resemble a lot of the classic adventures more). They also currently do in fact have puzzles, whether you like them or not.
Oh, that's right, they have millions of dollars! Wait, I never read that... But it's got to be true, because after all you said it.
I want you guys to know that despite my bitterness I really do get what you're trying to say, that you want puzzles that are much more challenging but not necessarily illogical. The problem is you're doing it a way that comes off as annoying and arrogant.
I think that would be a good idea to have two levels of difficulty..but do you really think its that easy to implement? Telltale's puzzles are intrinsically linked with the plot and the story.. how can you design puzzles at two levels of difficulty and tell the story at the same time..
SPOILER, SPOILER, SPOILER:
Drop a bowling ball and knock a soda popper unconscious.
That would be the easy puzzle.
Now, basically they would have to expand this puzzle a little bit. I came up with this after thinking for a while how the game could have been a little harder. It didn´t take too long.
Now, what if Sam doesn´t want to drop Lou because he suspects that some dude might stole it while he is upstairs? Well, Bosco could sell some extra-strong rubber bands in his store along with a heap of other useless junk (just to distract the player). OK, Sam notices that the rubber band won´t fit into Lou´s holes, it´s just a little too thick (after all it´s a rubber band and it´s, how should I put it, "twice fold" since it doesn´t have ends). Surely he could fit it in that hole if he could break it and make it more of a rubber string. But it´s extra strong and he just can´t break it with his hands. So, what if he walked outside and put the string on street sings on both sides of the road. When a car drives through, the band breaks (if you put a couple of extra bands there at the same time you could make a giant car-sling). So, now you have a string, and it fits into the hole but now there´s some empty space in that hole. Luckily Bosco sells extra fast cement in his store and you just have to get some water. Sadly, the water cooler is malfunctioning, the fish who lives there has been stuck in the tap and therefore you can´t just take water straight away. Well, you have a big gun so why shouldn´t you use it. Just shoot a hole into the water cooler, combine rubber string, Lou, cement and water and voila, you have a bowling ball yoyo.
i liked the ball-dropping and max's cool "i love my job" or so,
but this one is even more hillarious.
So, if you want people other than a small dedicated core of hardcore adventure gamers to play and enjoy your game (which those same fans have been saying for years is a franchise that could and should have mass appeal but is always held back), you're selling out? That doesn't entirely follow for me. I'm a pretty big fan of the first couple episodes actually being completable by a regular guy without having to feel like he's stupid and ramping it up, and as has been said, that will be happening to an increasing degree as things go on. Jake's recommendation: chill out!
Hey! If you had fucked up those things you surely would have heard it already and then the difficulty level wouldn´t even have been an issue worth mentioning!
Like I said I don´t have a problem with new gamers being able to play the game, but I just wish there would be some challenge for us more experienced dudes. Difficult levels or something.
if they can keep up the good jokes (my fav: try the dry plant in the office, max's response had me fallin off my chair) everything is good.
but, hell yeah, those old S&M HTR times are gone, man.
no more ball of twine/fishmagnet/helicoper puzzles (my fav from HTR)
hope they make enough money to keep S&M "light" goin for a few seasons.
YOU HAVE MY MONEY !