loyal fans betrayed, the graphics issue

edited June 2010 in General Chat
hi all, this is my first post.

Basically, I wanted to just put up a copy of a letter I recently wrote to tell-tale about the new sam and max season. Part of it includes a request to cancel my pc subscription for a PS-3 subscription. But the main point is that of two computers, neither is able to play Sam and Max at the lowest video setting. My basic point, the one I want to put out in the forums, is that the casual-gamers graphic-adventure enthusiasts (and nostalgics)--at least if they are like me--cannot play the new tell tale stuff. My feeling is that it is because they are making games for two types of fans/platforms: casual gamers who own shitty (from a gamer POV) PCs, and console owners looking for an alternative style game. I feel as a loyal lucasarts, sierra obsessie grown older, I fall into the former category, and I feel a bit betrayed. I was wondering if any other graphic adventure enthusiasts were feeling similar.

My letter:

My name is ____ I have been a long-term tell-tale subscriber, (and an even longer-term graphic-adventure-game enthusiast) and have loyally ordered all seasons of Sam and Max, Tales of Monkey Island as well as additional games. I also took the time to do a user-survey to help with the pre-release of the current Sam and Max season

I have two computers, a dell Inspiron D620 from September 2006, and an HP mini 110 from this september (both Windows 7 32 ed). The latter was able to play S&M seasons 1 &2 fine. TMI worked decently (at lowest graphics setting) on the mini, less so on the old inspiron. Neither of my computers can handle S&M on any graphics setting -- after the first 5 minutes, all the animation is running at a rate 6-10x slower than the sound to the point that gameplay--not to mention cutscenes--is unbarable.

MY problem: My current computer really cannot handle this season of Sam and Max, even at Graphics setting one. It just laggs too much. I had this problem (minimally) with TMI but it just meant restarting my computer after an hour of gameplay. Now, with the current season of S&M I simply cannot play the games at all.
--> I have a PS3 and would like to switch my computer order for the PS3 games. Now, I imagine such an easy switch is not easy. If this is true, i am requesting that you cancel my Season Three subscription, refund my money, and allow me to purchase the season on the PS-3. Under normal circumstances, I understand that this is asking alot--since the subsequent re-purchases would be handled through the playstation network. However, I am hoping that since I am such a long-term customer, you will be willing to assist me. In my fantasy, you can cancel my PC subscriptions and issue me playstation credit, or a cash-refund...

Without being rude, but just offering my feedback, I will also say that, as a long-term customer, I cannot help but feel that--perhaps in the haste to make everything console competitive-- you have alienated loyal casual-gamer fans by making games that cannot run on our kind of PC. And, since most other graphic adventure producers are producing stuff that works for the low-performance machines casual-gamers use. With all respect, there graphic adventure competition may not be great, but only TMI, I think, has come close to the kind of satisfying gameplay I felt with Ben there Dan That, or even Machinarium, and the system requirements those games had were practically xilch. It may be that the new Season of Sam and Max will outdue your previous work, and these competitor titles, but at the moment, I cant find out, because my computer suddenly cant handle the basic games you produce... On top of this fact, I am frustrated that you have no daytime customer support number, as a phone conversation would have made this much easier.

my telltale account is at this email, so you can verify all that I am saying. My phone number is _________. I would have contacted you earlier, after the first game was released, but I only just graduated from college this week and have not had the time to sit down and play till now. Please help me.

Again, I love the work you do, I just wish I could keep up with it on my PC...

--_______

P.S. I have written in such detail because many of my friends, lucas-arts style graphic adventure enthusiasts, have all expressed the same concerns (many of them could not play Sam and Max 1 when it came out!). I am proud to support the games you produce, especially at this risky time for producing graphic adventures, and--throughout college when I have had little cash to spare, have continued to shell out money to support your endeavors. If there are other departments of tell-tale--such as pr, marketing, etc.--who would find these comments useful, I give formal permission to pass them on.
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Comments

  • edited May 2010
    Telltale is in a bit of a quandary here when it comes to graphics. There are people like yourself who have older machines (or who have recent laptops with lousy graphics) that are left behind when technology improves.

    On the other hand, there are lots of people out there who will dismiss a game solely because the graphics aren't Crysis-quality.

    I don't think Telltale can grow unless it attracts newcomers to the adventure genre, and that means making the game visually appealing, sometimes at the cost of losing customers with older hardware. Advancing the graphics and lighting also permits Telltale to make its storytelling more compelling -- witness how shadows and enhanced facial expressions add to the experience of playing a game. If you play the PS3 version, I think you'll notice how the technological leaps help improve the game.

    Fortunately, Telltale is very generous in issuing refunds if your system isn't up to spec. You'll have to purchase the PS3 version directly from Sony -- Telltale doesn't have a way to transfer a season from PC to PS3.
  • edited May 2010
    Yeah, it's time to get a new computer man.

    that seems like a complaint of "The Graphics are too good to work on my computer." which kinda makes me laugh.

    But get the PS3 Version when you can, you will love it. When you can afford it get a new computer and go nuts.

    I think it's dumb that people will say a game sucks because it's graphics aren't the best in the world. Some games are supposed to be cartoony and dont look right like that. If it's a 2D game when it claims to be 3D, then I'm mad
  • edited May 2010
    You knew you have an old computer... why haven't you read the system requirements before buying?

    It's like you were saying "It doesn't work on my Playstation One! You betrayed me an all Playstation One users!"...

    I can understand you feel bad that you cannot play what you bought. Hope that TT does something, but it's mainly your fault IMHO.

    And I still hope TT continues to improve their graphics, I think that S&M3 is very good, and it has great effects, but the engine has still low polygon count compared to other products.
  • edited May 2010
    The new graphical touches add alot to the ambience and are very welcome in my eyes. It doesn't run perfectly on full on my system so I knock it down a few notches, but I can't begrudge them for enhancing their games
  • edited May 2010
    wapcaplet's answer is the best so far in terms of mixing helpfulness, truth, and not being rude.
    There are a lot of people nostalgic for the old style of adventure gaming, and those people would feel betrayed by improvements which, in aiming to keep abreast of hardware developments, render a typical home computer owned by a non-gamer, inadequate.
    In fact, having to upgrade your computer constantly in order to experience bigger and better graphics with each new game is one of the very things that turned away many of these people from modern gaming in the first place.
    Read the system requirements before buying? Seriously who does that? People that actually understand the system requirements will likely always have sufficient hardware.
    A computer from 3.5 years ago is fine. I bet it would run TMI fine with a bit of a cleanup. And that game is only a few months before Devil's Playhouse. It wouldn't seem unreasonable that Devil's Playhouse would come with an option to crank the graphics down to a level where such hardware would be able to play the game.
    I would just phone your local computer guy and ask for his opinion. It probably won't cost much to get the computer in a workable state.
  • edited May 2010
    I think I agree more with Bloody Eugene. It's just common sense to check the system requirements. Especially if you know you have an older computer. Then you'll be able to decide which platform is best to have the game run on and go for that.
  • edited May 2010
    I've been wanting some more advanced graphics from TellTale for a while. Just because I'd like to see such great games with great graphics for once. It's either one or the other usually. I'm glad TTG are upping their system requirements. And I have a fairly older card and a history of liking LucasArts and Sierra adventures.
  • edited May 2010
    A new graphics card might be all you need and shouldn't set you back too much.

    If you post your system specs here I'm sure someone could advise you.
  • edited May 2010
    This reminds me of how I felt when I found out that a particular real time strategy game, which normally don't require much in the way of graphics, wouldn't run on my computer. I was a bit upset, too, but I held on to the game for a few years until I could afford a better computer and overall enjoyed the game much much more because of the long wait. Also, since I bought the new computer with gaming in mind, it still runs new games even after six years.:D
  • edited May 2010
    It costs less than $100 to buy a decent video card these days, there is no reason you should expect modern games to run on ancient PCs without an upgrade every few years.
  • edited May 2010
    Did you update your graphics card drivers? Obvious question, but it can't hurt asking. I don't know if your computer is really obsolete enough for C.O.P.S. membership just yet.
  • edited May 2010
    I think it's a bit too strong of a word to say you feel "betrayed" by Telltale. If anything, feeling this way is your own fault. You should always check the system requirements for your PC, simple as that.

    I myself have bought several games in which the minimum requirements are way above the specs I have for my own PC. I never feel betrayed, simply because I just like to collect games, no matter how high the requirements.

    That reminds me, I still need to find God Hand for the PS2. After which I need to get myself a PS2.
  • edited May 2010
    You don't have to upgrade your computer constantly. My first PC, which I got in 2003, lasted me until I replaced it. The only upgrade it got was a new graphics card and the PC still works now. If I wanted to, I could probably install Sam and Max on it and play it, although it would be at a lower setting.

    This PC I made last year, using slightly out of date components, and it cost me less than £500. With it, I can play Sam and Max on, well, max. Although my video card does protest slightly so I should probably turn it down to 7 or something.

    So to sum up, and please understand I'm not being rude when I say this, but it's time to suck it up and start upgrading your PC, or just buy a new one. You don't even need to buy top of the line. You could get the parts and build a fairly cheap PC like I did. Hell if you went for a £500 one now it would probably be better than mine!

    Also Gary, I too want God Hand on the PS2. I bitterly regret not buying it when I saw it appear pre owned in my local Game. It was gone soon after.
  • edited May 2010
    Pale Man wrote: »
    It costs less than $100 to buy a decent video card these days, there is no reason you should expect modern games to run on ancient PCs without an upgrade every few years.
    A new PC bought in September is ancient?

    Anyway, i'd be in a similair boat, if i hadn't had mine upped to have blu-ray (because it had to be custom built they doubled all my specs for £12 extra, and can play all TTG's on highest settings). I don't expect to have to look at system specs for a game that isn't top of the range, on my laptop which isn't ancient.
    I would feel incredibly annoyed and betrayed if it didn't work (though probably moreso at the fact i'd chosen a crummy computer)

    As for advice, i can only say to update your drivers. Telltale has to move on sometime, it's just a shame some people are left behind.
  • edited May 2010
    question: Isn't the HP mini a Netbook? If they are those are not gaming computers. They are for taking notes while business meetings and college classes. you shouldn't expect any game to work on them
  • edited May 2010
    Friar wrote: »
    A new PC bought in September is ancient?

    As the post above mine indicates, the new PC is a Netbook, and therefore should not be expected to run any type of game whatsoever. Any game it can run should be considered a bonus. And a stock PC from 2006 with zero upgrades is ancient, yes.

    I bought this PC in 2006, but have upgraded it sufficiently that it is able to run modern games at max settings.
  • edited May 2010
    What are the specs on your Dell? I have a Dell Inspiron 9400 laptop that I got in May 2006 that has no problem running TMI or Devil's Playhouse at graphic level 3. It can also handle plenty of other graphics-intensive games, albeit barely. If your computer has similar specs to mine then there might be something else that's keeping the games from running on it, like malware or outdated drivers.
  • edited May 2010
    I certainly don't feel betrayed, but I do think it's disappointing. Apparently developers are pressures to make more and more demanding graphics, according to another discussion, because otherwise the people won't be as likely to buy. It apparently costs more so it's not like that would make them happy.

    I couldn't run Sam & Max Season 3 either. I discussed it with my husband and we came to a consensus: we purchased a better videocard this time, and next time we can't play a telltale game on this computer without having to change a part, or replace the whole thing, we'll stop buying telltale games. So far we've spent double what we spent on games just to get systems that could play them, it doesn't sound normal at all.

    This being said, they're not going to do things any differently, you know. Just as you're complaining that they're putting too demanding graphics in their games, there are people complaining that the graphics aren't good enough. And they're probably a majority, those who want more and more powerful graphics.
    As I said, it's sad, but it's not a betrayal or anything like that.
  • edited May 2010
    Avistew wrote: »
    I couldn't run Sam & Max Season 3 either. I discussed it with my husband and we came to a consensus: we purchased a better videocard this time, and next time we can't play a telltale game on this computer without having to change a part, or replace the whole thing, we'll stop buying telltale games. So far we've spent double what we spent on games just to get systems that could play them, it doesn't sound normal at all.


    That's why you should save up and spend 400 bucks or more on a desktop pc that will stay up-to-date for longer.

    Oh, buy the parts online and assemble them yourself. Don't buy a prebuilt pc from a distributor like Dell or HP.
    For one, they charge way too much for RAM compared to RAM manufacturers like Crucial.
    For another, if you buy from a distributor, you're paying alot more, primarily for the tech support, and if you know anyone who knows anything about PC's, you don't need to pay more for that.

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    This doesn't include RAM bought from Crucial.com, and I haven't bought Sam&Max TDP yet, but I can run ToMI at 1440x900 at quality level 9 with zero issues.
  • edited May 2010
    Chyron8472 wrote: »
    That's why you should save up and spend 500 bucks or more on a desktop pc that will stay up-to-date for longer.

    Oh, buy the parts online and assemble them yourself. Don't buy a prebuilt pc from a distributor like Dell or HP.
    For one, they charge way too much for RAM compared to RAM manufacturers like Crucial.
    For another, if you buy from a distributor, you're paying alot more, primarily for the tech support, and if you know anyone who knows anything about PC's, you don't need to pay more for that.

    get that, and if I was going back in time I might do that. But now I've bought this computer and I'm planning on using it for longer.
    But heh, when it needs replacing, the one I'll get will probably be able to play some more games. I guess I can live with being a few years behind, especially since games will be cheaper then too.
    I don't really care about being the first person playing something anyways, although I guess I'd rather support telltale more.

    Oh well, we got a card that can play The Devil's Plahouse on level 9, hopefully t will be a few years before we're faced with a game we can't play on level 1.
  • edited May 2010
    Here is Will's word on the graphics issue, from the game support board.
    Will wrote: »
    Sorry to hear it isn't working for you. We can give refunds easily enough. If you can't play the game, there's no reason for you to have to pay for it. To purchase the PS3 version though you will have to go through the Sony store and purchase it the old fashioned way. There's no real easy way for us to loop into Sony's store (or really any partner's store).

    As for the graphics issue, all I can really say is that we work pretty hard to walk the fine line between quality and accessibility, and I think ultimately we do a pretty good job of it. That said, the line is always going to have to slowly march forward with the progression of technology, or we risk falling too far behind the times. But then, that's one of the reasons we do the consoles as well: to retain accessibility.
  • edited May 2010
    I think that if you're a adventure game player, adventure games are some type of games where gfx don't count a lot. I still would buy them for the same price if they would ship with oldskool 2d gfx. What matters gfx wise is the style and not the complexity. And a convincing style can be achieved on reasonable specced low end systems as well.

    If you want to offer more than that, there are certain possibilities to enhance the visuals for higher specced systems without hurting low end systems too much like for instance offering different AA levels, higher resolutions, bigger textures and so on. As TTG wants to offer their content on a wide range of systems, they automatically have to implement such screws.

    One problem TTG seems to face is that they expanded their platforms rather quickly without having the time giving a lot of polishment to each platform which results into suboptimal performing games. Another one is that there seems to be a focus on aspects which simply aren't this important to experienced adventure gamers but might be more valuable for newbies and as TTG obviously wants to enlarge their userbase this seems to be a valid option to them.

    I suspect that things will improve in a way that the minimum specs won't increase in the near future due to the fixed specs of the consoles and due to more optimized platform support, so if you're current system can deal with some settings, i think it's safe to assume that it will also run upcoming games quite well, maybe even better.

    There is room for improvement, they are aware of the situation and so time after time things should improve. Looking at the Mac for instance things aren't perfect but the situation enhanced significantly already.

    Saying so i also would welcome more focus on that things look nice on low end systems instead of that it's more a way to play the game but with some distracting glitches beeing involved, thinking of the models for instance.
  • edited May 2010
    Gaming is an expensive hobby, regardless of your genre of choice. If you don't want to pay a couple hundred bucks to upgrade your hardware every couple years, you have the wrong hobby.

    If adventure games were still 320x200 resolution with 256 colors, we'd still play them, but they would never attract new customers. New customers = more money = higher game quality and length = we get to still keep playing their games at the cost of updating our rigs every few years.

    Really, if all you spend is $50-$100 a year upgrading your PC (don't buy top of the line parts, waste of money unless you are obsessed with bleeding edge tech, buy ones that are 1-2 generations behind the current one, you'll pull almost the same level of performance at a fraction of the cost), you'll easily be able to keep pace with Telltale releases, and run them at maximum as well.
  • edited May 2010
    I agree. I'm about to shell out for a new graphics card so I can experience the best.
  • edited May 2010
    Pale Man wrote: »
    Gaming is an expensive hobby, regardless of your genre of choice. If you don't want to pay a couple hundred bucks to upgrade your hardware every couple years, you have the wrong hobby.

    If adventure games were still 320x200 resolution with 256 colors, we'd still play them, but they would never attract new customers. New customers = more money = higher game quality and length = we get to still keep playing their games at the cost of updating our rigs every few years.

    Really, if all you spend is $50-$100 a year upgrading your PC (don't buy top of the line parts, waste of money unless you are obsessed with bleeding edge tech, buy ones that are 1-2 generations behind the current one, you'll pull almost the same level of performance at a fraction of the cost), you'll easily be able to keep pace with Telltale releases, and run them at maximum as well.
    I agree. I'm about to shell out for a new graphics card so I can experience the best.

    Yes, it is an expensive hobby, and I feel confident I'll be keeping up with Telltale for a while, and people with older computers need to realize that. You have to keep up with the system reqs of a game. I know I'm not about to start pouting just because my pc can't play a game, it just means I need an upgrade. Simple. It's like saying you feel betrayed by battery companies because you have to buy more batteries. It shouldn't be an issue, it's just a fact of life.
  • edited May 2010
    Honestly I wouldn't mind if they bumped up the graphics even more..... I say bring it on.. TTG has to stay competitive.
  • edited May 2010
    Pale Man wrote: »
    As the post above mine indicates, the new PC is a Netbook, and therefore should not be expected to run any type of game whatsoever. Any game it can run should be considered a bonus. And a stock PC from 2006 with zero upgrades is ancient, yes.

    I bought this PC in 2006, but have upgraded it sufficiently that it is able to run modern games at max settings.

    This is what i get for skimmming ¬_¬
  • edited May 2010
    Ok even I can play this game at the lowest setting(its just a little choppy but you forget about that actually)
  • edited May 2010
    Irishmile wrote: »
    Honestly I wouldn't mind if they bumped up the graphics even more..... I say bring it on.. TTG has to stay competitive.


    Yes, and also the *ahem* animation level. Let's get some more emotional animation in with the great script writing. If the virtual actors fall flat on delivering lines, then what's the sense in having voices?

    I'd like to say that pushing the graphics to a better level is a good thing, but as long as it does so in good reason, and I believe TTG are certainly doing their best in that dept.

    As in response to the original post, it's unfortunate your current system can't play Sam & Max S3 to it's full potential, as that's always frustrating. However, I must say, even knocking it back doesn't ruin the experience at all.
  • edited May 2010
    Yeah, I just find it absolutely insane and ridiculous that people expect graphics to stay the same. Your tech won't be able to run everything at max forever. Sometimes you just have to update.
  • edited May 2010
    I don't think he's expecting graphics to stay the same, as many here are implying. He wants the minimum graphics setting to be workable on older machines than it is workable on.
  • edited May 2010
    I don't think he's expecting graphics to stay the same, as many here are implying. He wants the minimum graphics setting to be workable on older machines than it is workable on.

    It runs on low settings on video cards that are 5+ years old unless you have a bargain bin piece of junk PC with a low end or integrated video card. If you aren't willing to shell out for a decent video card once every 5 years, you can't possibly expect gaming to wait for you.
  • edited May 2010
    I'm a lil' disapointed about my computer only being able to run it on level 3 but I suppose it's just a wake up call that my PC needs to upgrade, or to get a new one all together. I'm not a computer genius though so I mainly have to rely on frieds to tell me what to do. Parently if I wanna upgrade completly (I don't have much memory ether) then I'm gunna have to shell out £800, more or less. It's a steep price for me but it's to be expected when you play games on ya PC.
  • edited May 2010
    SillyStell wrote: »
    I'm a lil' disapointed about my computer only being able to run it on level 3 but I suppose it's just a wake up call that my PC needs to upgrade, or to get a new one all together. I'm not a computer genius though so I mainly have to rely on frieds to tell me what to do. Parently if I wanna upgrade completly (I don't have much memory ether) then I'm gunna have to shell out £800, more or less. It's a steep price for me but it's to be expected when you play games on ya PC.

    Surely you don't need to spend £800 on a computer unless you want everything cranked up to maximum. Mine only cost £479 from Dell 18 months ago and it runs Tales + S&M Season three at level 9 - although that's hardly the mark of a good system. To compare, it runs GTA4 at a low setting with a small amount of lag.
  • edited May 2010
    You can spend $400-$600 and get a pretty good PC if you know where to order from and how to build it, or even if you just have a friend/relative that does. Most of the pre-built ones are pretty much junk, and way overpriced too.
  • edited May 2010
    I got my pre-built PC for £300 off eBay, the worst components were the motherboard itself because its limited to 4GB of RAM and the graphics card which was a bit low profile (also the case is pretty ugly with neon lights up the wazoo but that's not my biggest issue) but I had something pretty current and now I can upgrade as I see fit, it was just a good stepping stone to get back in the game
  • edited May 2010
    Now zis is news I like! I suppose my friends just told me that because there the type of people who really want the best, this computer a custom one but my dad got it for me like 3 years ago and he didn't know much about computers (though he thinks he does so shh). I suppose I'll save up until I got a pretty good amount, maybe £500, more or less and search the market! So far I got £230, hope I don't spend it, that there is my weakenss D:
  • edited May 2010
    The Graphics and Animation arnt fantastic, the lighting and shadowing is terrible.

    But the adventures are fun and very entertaining.

    At the end of the day if your computer cant handle this level of gaming you should drop your PC out of a window from a great hight , get a new PC, get a PS3, get a 360 .. but dont create threads claiming that Loyal Fans are being betrayed! ya frickin idiot.
  • edited May 2010
    Criticise Telltale = get a couple of somewhat helpful replies drowned in a thread of people who think that what you've said suddenly makes it ok to be rude.
  • edited May 2010
    ScummVM + a good Adventure still can be a lot of fun and these games also convince new players and run on really low specced systems. I think Torchlight was a brilliant example in the respect that as long as proper art is beeing involved you still can get around with DX7 gfx niveau. Obviously it also depends on the type of game you're going to make but i think it told some guys a lesson.
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