The positive side of episodic content
We seem to have a lot of negative posts lately regarding the Sam & Max episodes. I firmly believe most of the criticism directed at Sam & Max is due to the episodic format (ie. length, difficulty). I also believe these games are unfairly compared to full adventure games, which is a whole different ballgame. We all knew before we bought the games that they were going to be episodic and shorter than a full game.
But on to the positive things. What do you believe is the most positive aspect of telltale's decision to make Sam & Max episodic?
For one, I love the fact that characters like Bosco, Sybil and Jimmy are allowed to grow and progress in ways that are not possible in a single game. Bosco's next disguise, Sybil's next job and Jimmy's next scheme are always things I look out for in each game.
Also I think from a developers perspective, it is probably much more satisfying too. When working on a big game with a long developing time, one can easily get unmotivated. With episodic content, you can see the reactions of the audience with every release, motivating the next release.
But on to the positive things. What do you believe is the most positive aspect of telltale's decision to make Sam & Max episodic?
For one, I love the fact that characters like Bosco, Sybil and Jimmy are allowed to grow and progress in ways that are not possible in a single game. Bosco's next disguise, Sybil's next job and Jimmy's next scheme are always things I look out for in each game.
Also I think from a developers perspective, it is probably much more satisfying too. When working on a big game with a long developing time, one can easily get unmotivated. With episodic content, you can see the reactions of the audience with every release, motivating the next release.
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I don´t think that an episodic format and the easiness are related. Wouldn´t it be possible to make a difficulter game with the same content but with harder puzzles? Surely the game wouldn´t be as long as a long game, but at least it would feel like a challenge (and also take more time to complete).
Anyway, I think the games are made very well. You know, it isn´t a matter of what we have, it´s ok, but it´s a matter of what we should have had: a more difficult game with crazier storylines.
I think the episodic format could be used more creatively than Telltale has. Crazy trips to strange places with no limitations of continuing a storyline that was finished in last episode, that´s what I kinda hoped S&M would have been. Something like the comics were. Unexpectable.
Now the games and stories are videogamish and safe, but with an interactivity of a comic. I would have hoped for a (S&M) comic with an interactivity of a videogame. That´s my problem with the games in a nutshell.
Hopefully Steve will wirte more in the future and draw the storylines, no offense to those other dudes but they are just making safe videogames, Steve´s stuff has been a little more imaginative (of course, I can´t know, maybe Steve has written most of the stuff I don´t like about these games, who knows?).
The best thing about episodic format is the fast pace of new releases.Also, the episodic format birngs a lot of possibilities and freedom, hopefully the will be used in the future.
I also think the episodes are great becuase they can easily switch theme and style with each new release, making it feel fresh. Whereas a full length sequel would more or less stay consistant all the way through.
(Not including Valve's episodic content. Valve wouldn't listen to a consumer if their lives depended on it.)
What we lose in an episodic game is the capacity to really explore a game world and see how all the different locations interact with one another. Think of the original Sam and Max, which charts the duo's journey across the bizarre tourist attractions of America, and how often an item is found in one location that turns out to be of use somewhere else, or a puzzle has to be completed in a variety of different places, bit by bit. The diversity of the game world required the player to think harder, because the solutions weren't simply laid out in from of them. Additionally, while the secondary characters in the episodes are great, we miss out on the more eccentric characters with smaller appearances to be found in the original game, whose role was largely to provide a unique nugget of humour based on their position and personality. The new characters in each episode, although quite well characterised, are generally plot-driving more than humourous.
The question is whether (should anyone agree with me) these problems could be ironed out while retaining the episodic structure of the game. Could the next series perhaps have fewer, longer episodes, just to allow for more locations and characters to squeeze their way into each one, or maybe places discovered in previous episodes could remain available thereafter and have new additions to accommodate the evolving storyline. Admittedly the current examples of locations are probably a bit too specific for that to be possible - I can think of no reason we would ever return to Brady Culture's place, for example. This sort of direction wouldn't actually be so dissimilar to the original game, in which, while many more places can be visited at a time, they are only revealed one by one as the game progresses.
Yes, the games a little easy and the fact that we can't combine inventory truly sucks. I still adore the Sam and Max games and thing they are fantastic value for money. Who knows, maybe we will get to combine inventory later?
Keep in mind that Telltale is at the head of whole new kind of distibution. On-line episodic gaming will allow indepents on Adventure Gaming Studio to compete. People like Herculean Production could get in on the game, so could the guy who made Shivah and The Blackwell Legacy.
I think Telltale is breathing new life in to a stagnant industry. The sheer cost of producing a video games means no one wants to take a risk anymore. Creativity and innovation are slowly going out the window. Viva La TellTale!
I totally agree that areas from previous episodes should still remain available.
I would also be pleased if every single Bosco item was left available in all episodes; i think that would help. I'll be gutted after spending something rediculous like $10,000,000, only to have the item removed in later episodes
I don't think episodic has anything to do with the game's difficulty. Sam & Max is as challenging as it is due to a conscious design choice and nothing more. Yes, more locations would mean more tedious backtracking, but I guarantee they could fill these games with stupid and overly complicated puzzles that serve to blatantly pad out the game length if they really wanted to. In fact, I imagine it would be relatively easy to do.
You don't need a ton of locations that the characters must traverse the world to reach to make a game hard. Maniac Mansion was essentially one giant location with tons of inventory items.
Whether or not Sybil and Bosco are successful examples of the aformentioned possibilities is debatable. As to what a recurring joke/storyline could be, an example I have in mind right now would be for S&M to get a monetary reward from solving a case, building up their fortune and perhaps amassing money for a certain project they could throw a quip about at the end of each episode.
Also, producing episodes is more affordable and of lower risk than single large projects.
I wouldn't call it padding out, really; it's a matter of making solutions less conspicuous so actions have to be thought out rather than being able to complete the game by experimentation. Still, maybe you're right that it's not necessarily impossible to make an episodic game more difficult, MM being a good example. I just wish they would! But I guess that's a topic for a different thread.
I would challenge that assertion that "most people" can finish S&M in one hour--they do a lot of playtests and focus tests with timers etc, from what I hear--and it actually takes "most people" a lot longer than that.
But if you meant veteran FPS player (say somebody who's played 20+ FPS games) versus veteran adventure gamer--you maybe a bit more accurate.
Regardless of ShaggE's contention that HL episodes are actually shorter than (or on par with) Sam and Max episodes, if one is to declare that the sale price of an item represents its real price, then a Sam and Max episode is actually priced less than $6 an episode [$5.83]--and thus less than 2/3rds the "real price" of a Half-Life episode.
That Half-Life episode actually costs $19.95 right now by the way... so the non-sale comparison (non-real price? fake price?) would mean that a Sam and Max episode [$8.95] costs less than 45% the price of a Half-Life episode--even more dramatic).
I am always looking forward to play the next game, and I really love all the characters. I also like Sybil, who isn't the most loved character.
The games are easy, yes. But that dosen't matter!
They are very entertaining!! Greate humor!
I was very sceptical when I first heard that sam and max were going to be episodic.
But now I think it's the best thing, that could happen to it.
gamespy said-"With about four to five hours of new gameplay,"
Gamespot said-" featuring only four to six hours of gameplay;"
Eurogamer-"Given that Episode One will only clock in at around five hours on most people's first run-through"
Some of the reviews have the nerve to say it'll take 4-5 hours when it is clearly not the case, btw. They are just quoting what was told to them it seems. 90 minutes cannot be extended to 4-5 hours unless you go idle(in the brain). Don't take this literally! It is just my opinion!
I own the game, just haven't gotten around to playing it.. i'll just ask my friend later on.
HL2 itself was very long and I'm pretty sure I would have heard tons of complaints if episode 1 was only an hour.
I do believe the games so far was too easy and making the difficulty harder will make them more enjoyable. I think this point has been argued extensively and the developers surely are aware of our feelings on this.
I also notice that there are mixed feelings on Bosco and Sybil. This is fine, but hopefully there are going to be more recurring characters in future episodes (I hope Hugh Bliss! I'm also betting on Chuckles). My point was that recurring characters (and inside references to previous episodes) are something that can be uniquely handled by the episodic nature.
What I love about it though, is having a new (albeit short) story every month to explore and enjoy. Another thing I agree on is the point on user feedback. One thing we should remember, though, is that because of the 3 month development period for each episode, user feedback is probably first going to make an impact on episode 4 onwards. I think this is where most of the fighting is originating from. Users feel Telltale is ingoring their comments, because they can't see any results. I do believe (hope?) that from episode 4 we will all see that the developers ARE listening!
Finally, I'm glad to see positive and constructive comments on this thread, and that we havent reverted to insult slinging again. I do believe criticism is important, especially when it can influence future releases. Ignoring the problems won't make them go away, but resorting to rudeness and vulgarity isn't going to help either (Max might disagree though!).
Sorry, I didn't clarify. Indeed I did mean veteran vs. veteran. And I'm just going by past complaints, where many say they get about an hour/hour and a half out of S&M. I probably shouldn't have made it look like I was stating a hard fact.
It makes the entire project much more dynamic and ends up leaving the people who follow the project feel like they've got more influence. It's neat.
There's a lot of drawbacks, and most of them are that nobody but Telltale has been able to keep a schedule. And for that, I certainly applaud Telltale.
I think the episodic format serves Sam and Max very well. The chracters work best in short chunks. Trying to do a long sprawling storyline with the characters would be very difficult because they tend to be so tangenty. Granted they pulled it off on the original game, but that doesn't mean it should always be the case.
I do agree the games are a bit too easy, but once season one is done, if it's sucessful enough to warrant a season two, you can be certain that the folks at Telltale are going to keep that in mind when designing the next season. After all length, repetitivness and simplicity have been the chief complaints, and they've shown that they do care about input.
I'm excited where this leads, and I think considering how very experamental episodic games are at this time, Sam and Max is generally pretty sucessful. It's got room to improve but that's to it being episodic, it CAN.
If I have 18 hours of Sam & Max in front of me that took say two years for a company like LucasArts to fully develop, I'm going to look at that wad of game and say to myself, "Damn, it's time to blow my wad." Once that wad is blown it's at least another two years before i can wad up again (and this is very depressing).
What episodic gaming allows is for me to use my wad slowly, and by not blowing it at all once I can have a seemingly continuous stream of well ... wad.
Maybe a money analogy with investment and banks and stuff would have been better ... but i think you get the point.
Disturbing analogy, I'm going to go jam a fork in my mind's eye now :P
NO PLEASE DON´T DO IT!!!
Hee... He said "wad"...
Wait, that's not a money analogy?
I like not having to use my entire 'wad o'dough' at once to play.
(bonus points for anyone who can name the game where 'wad o'dough' is an inventory item)
By any chance is it Leisure Suit Larry
But fine, you get 5 bonus points. Get just 25 more and you can get a plastic finger with a cut on it that doesn't even closely resemble a natural human skintone so as not to freak out your parents.
My mind may have gone there first as well. ¬ ¬