True enough, same goes for the fact that I and others like the game and that we are not stupid or are not gamers because of that.
There is a difference between enjoying something and being challenged by it. No one is saying you aren't allowed to enjoy the game, we're saying it's a terrible game, mechanically, and the puzzles are so simple that an ape with brain damage could figure them out in short order.
True enough, same goes for the fact that I and others like the game and that we are not stupid or are not gamers because of that.
Well, I didn't talk about people liking it being stupid or "non gamers".
I was comparing the game to other "easy games". I can enjoy an easy game, I'm not considering myself stupid or "non gamer", heh ? I just feel that the problem is somewhere else.
If you like the game, that's good for you, any improvement will make it even better in your eyes.
Though, it's true that, some points are clearly not only a matter of opinion.
And by seeing some people "fine" with major quantifiable flaws, then we have to say something otherwise the developer might think everything's ok while it's not.
I like how the people who don't like the game are posting long posts to justify their dislike whereas I feel I don't need to justify how I feel about a game. Not to your extents anyway.
Hypothetically, let's say you both are entirely right.
I'm wrong, SHODANFreeman is wrong, Strayth is wrong, anyone who thinks anyone like we do is entirely wrong, and you're entirely in the right.
In such a situation, all the same, going into a discussion board, singling out one post(no matter how wrong or rude it might be), and simply saying "You're wrong, no I don't need to say why" is entirely pointless, and honestly it's rude and disrespectful. If you don't want to say WHY, then there's no point in posting, simple as that. That's not conversation. That's looking at another forum user, branding them an enemy, and thoughtlessly attacking while expecting everyone else around you to believe you're right.
And again, it doesn't matter if you are. It's still not right to treat this or ANY discussion like this.
To see that kind of post, from a mod specifically, is frankly quite disgusting. You should not only KNOW better, but try your best to PROMOTE better rather than giving credence to this kind of behavior.
Problem is, everything is already said, multiple times and in all variations of intensity, and I'm unfortunately very bored of it. That's what happens if a discussion goes on too long. After the next releases, I might be ready to discuss this yet again. Until then, I don't see the need, even less in a thread that was intended for a different direction.
Problem is, everything is already said, multiple times and in all variations of intensity, and I'm unfortunately very bored of it. That's what happens if a discussion goes on too long. After the next releases, I might be ready to discuss this yet again. Until then, I don't see the need, even less in a thread that was intended for a different direction.
If you're bored of it, and uninterested in the discussion, perhaps you should ignore it?
Also, the title of the thread is "Game too easy/ short / lacks puzzles Thread", so how is this even remotely off-topic?
The downloadable version of the first episode of Tales of Monkey Island featuring Earl Boen's performance was announced forever ago, and they seemingly have brushed that under the rug and forgotten about it at this point.
How many times have we begged them to release this? Yet, it's still not done.
Problem is, everything is already said, multiple times and in all variations of intensity, and I'm unfortunately very bored of it. That's what happens if a discussion goes on too long. After the next releases, I might be ready to discuss this yet again. Until then, I don't see the need, even less in a thread that was intended for a different direction.
Has it been? Where's the rebuttal, specifically, against:
-You can't walk in Jurassic Park
-The Jurassic Park cancellation was made alongside the Microsoft Xbox 360 retail deal? And now all episodes are coming out at once, 6 months later, when they would have been done anyway?
-Releasing Episode 1 of 2 series on iPad followed by months of no word?
-The Wiiware version of Puzzle Agent, once announced, being gone without a word?
-The Mac ports of Season 1 of S&M and W&G, announced for "within the year", now well outside that deadline, without a single mention since the "within a year" announcement?
-The Wallace and Gromit DVD having online DRM and having next to no extras?
-No downloadable Earl Boen, announced while Will was still at the company.
-No downloadable or otherwise NutriSpecs
Because they aren't "obvious" to me, despite what you say in your own posts.
These are the things in SHODANFreeman's post, these are the things that counter, quite well I believe, the argument by corruptbiggins that, hey, you only dislike one game, that's quite silly to hate the company based off that.
Well, it's not, precisely because it's not just not liking one game. I just did "not like" The Devil's Playhouse, which was overall a disappointment for me. But during that season's run and through most of their actions since, Telltale's philosophy has been "Fuck the Customer, Get More Money". It's less like going to a restaurant once a week and having one bad meal, than it is like going every week, lately having one of the waiters being fairly rude to you, and finally one day the chef walks out personally, jumps up onto the table, drops his pants, and drops the contents of his bowels right onto your plate. At that point, no, no it is not an overreaction to decide that buying from that place is no longer very much worth the strain on your budget, no matter how good the food was before. And no, it's not right to then look at all of that, say "lol no", and walk off. If you have nothing to say, or you don't want to actually say anything, then for everyone's sake just don't say anything, because you effectively already have, but with the side effect of being harmful to the very concept of a forum, ESPECIALLY with you being in the position of authority that you have.
In short: No need to rebutt what I did not argue against. Also, I only see scarce connection between your bullet points and Shodan's blunt accusations. I quoted one particular sentence and my comment was not surprisingly meant to react to specifically this sentence. Lying. Misleading. Screwing over: That's exclusively what got the "No.". As you well know, I'd even support some other arguments in that post. I was arguing against intent on TTG's side.
But for the simple sake of TL;DR: If you are so absolutely sure what to expect from Jurassic Park, where is that element of "lying" and "misleading" which Shodan finds so central to TTG's recent endeavours (and that is what I found offensive)? Fans wanted TT games on XBox, now they're getting it. Do you find that wrong? Is anyone "screwed over" here? All those PC preorderers who now get a free season, are these the fucked customers you were just talking about? If contrary to TTG's original plans episodes are not released on iPad or Mac (the latter a completely free bonus in the first place!), is that undoubtedly a "lie" or "deceit" to you? It may well be a disappointment, but that's about it. Same goes for "Earl Boen" and the "NutriSpecs" (both nice-to-haves maybe, but I don't really miss them).
Also, I really do not see the position of authority you are speaking about. But, well, I think I know where you got that one idea.
How hypocrite. Don't you remember our posts were moved here ?
And no, I did not know that recent posts were moved here. So, what about calling me a hypocrite? And what about getting the thread back on track nonetheless?
Fans wanted TT games on XBox, now they're getting it. Do you find that wrong? Is anyone "screwed over" here?
How about the fact that they blatantly lied about the reason behind the delay, delayed an already finished episode 1 for PC players specifically because of the Xbox deal, and the release schedule suggests, if not confirms, that absolutely no significant improvements will be made? (And from what I hear, this is also confirmed by TTG themselves in the private forum)
If contrary to TTG's original plans episodes are not released on iPad or Mac (the latter a completely free bonus in the first place!), is that undoubtedly a "lie" or "deceit" to you?
"Completely free bonus"? You realize there are fans/customers who exclusively own a Mac, right? People who do not already own the PC versions? These people were promised ports of a game and then TTG simply ignored their promise. Breaking a promise is the same thing as lying. You can't go around tossing out promises constantly and never making good on them.
It may well be a disappointment, but that's about it. Same goes for "Earl Boen" and the "NutriSpecs" (both nice-to-haves maybe, but I don't really miss them).
"Nice-to-have" or not, they were promised and then they were not delivered. I don't care if they're a big deal or not, the big deal is that they continually announce and promise things that they have no intention of delivering, and they never even let us know that they have no intention of delivering them. The best we got was Jake apologizing for the lack of Nutrispecs on the DVD, which was appreciated but still doesn't fix the issue. They haven't said a single word on the Earl Boen issue in at least a year, and it was repeatedly promised by several members of staff.
In short: No need to rebutt what I did not argue against.
Yes, you did. You quoted the whole post, and your ONLY contribution was "No, and I don't need to say why". You did not clarify a WHAT, you did not clarify a WHY, you simply said "No" to the entire contents of the post. Which, on top of being an entirely wrongheaded thing to do, is also what you're denying doing right here.
Also, I only see scarce connection between your bullet points and Shodan's blunt accusations.
My bullet points are RIPPED from his stark accusations!
-You can't walk in Jurassic Park
Jurassic Park actually looks like it will be LESS difficult than BttF, since it uses the same "keep clicking stuff until other stuff happens" gameplay but this time you can't even walk around.
-The Jurassic Park cancellation was made alongside the Microsoft Xbox 360 retail deal? And now all episodes are coming out at once, 6 months later, when they would have been done anyway?
one of which gets delayed at Microsoft's whim, followed by a blatant lie that the delay is to "improve" the game.
-Releasing Episode 1 of 2 series on iPad followed by months of no word?
They've released an episode of 2 different game series
-The Wiiware version of Puzzle Agent, once announced, being gone without a word?
and then apparently canceled the WiiWare version of Puzzle Agent without mentioning it to anyone, hoping people would just forget about it, I guess.
-The Mac ports of Season 1 of S&M and W&G, announced for "within the year", now well outside that deadline, without a single mention since the "within a year" announcement?
They announced They announced a Mac port of Wallace and Gromit and Sam and Max Season 1 ages ago, but apparently decided that no one would care about those.
-The Wallace and Gromit DVD having online DRM and having next to no extras?
The Wallace and Gromit DVD was an absolute joke, no features to speak of, and online activation = why even bother ordering the disc other than to have something to sit on the shelf?
-No downloadable Earl Boen, announced while Will was still at the company.
The downloadable version of the first episode of Tales of Monkey Island featuring Earl Boen's performance was announced forever ago, and they seemingly have brushed that under the rug and forgotten about it at this point.
-No downloadable or otherwise NutriSpecs
The PC owners of The Devil's Playhouse don't get the Nutrispecs, not even on the DVD.
Because they aren't "obvious" to me, despite what you say in your own posts.
None of my bullet points were original. I just ripped the ideas out of his post, stripped them of emotion, and reposted them in raw data form to make a point.
For the simple sake of TL;DR: If you are so absolutely sure what to expect from Jurassic Park, where is that element of "lying" and "misleading" which Shodan finds so central to TTG's recent endeavours (and that is what I found offensive)?
While I wouldn't say "lying", I'd certainly say "misleading", or at least "promising without the fullest intention to deliver on those promises in a timely fashion, or within the timeframe they allotted themselves". None of those things are items we made up, the list is entirely made up of things that Telltale themselves PROMISED to customers, through the blog and through customer forum posts. To make those promises and not fulfill them after a YEAR shows, at least, a massive amount of disrespect for the customer and a lack of regard for their own word. This, plainly, SUCKS, and is a massive 180 from what the company's line was only a couple years ago.
Fans wanted TT games on XBox, now they're getting it. Do you find that wrong?
This has nothing to do with anything that was said.
Is anyone "screwed over" here? If contrary to TTG's original plans episodes are not released on iPad or Mac (the latter a completely free bonus in the first place!)
The latter is NOT a "free bonus", any more than the iPad version is. If you only have a Mac, and their BIG MAC PUSH got you excited for the Mac releases, then FUCK YOU because they aren't releasing for your computer. Yes, that is being screwed over, being told that it is coming to your platform within the year and then having two pass without a single word hence. That is quite possibly the DEFINITION of being screwed over.
is that undoubtedly a "lie" or "deceit" to you?
Yes, it is deceitful. They specifically outlined, on their blog, that the games would be done in a certain order, and "within the year", and even gave rough estimates. Then, the voters were entirely ignored as a different order entirely was set about, and then they didn't release the voted-for Sam and Max Season One, you know, the franchise that WON the big press poll they did that brought traffic to their site. So yes, it comes off as extremely deceitful and wrong.
Same goes for "Earl Boen" and the "NutriSpecs" (both nice-to-haves maybe, but I don't really miss them).
Except we were told we would get them. Several times. And we were even told it'd be on the DVD, and apparently somebody was asleep at the wheel at the time because they didn't supply it at all. Same with the Earl Boen recording. It provides the same voice for LeChuck across the entire season, it should be there for consistency of the product(what other game have you played that changed voice actors partway through?!), and it was PROMISED TO CUSTOMERS. To SAY you will do something and then NOT do it, no matter how little effort it might take, is the definition of lying and deceit, especially when no mention is made of the change of plans afterward. At the very least, THAT was dishonest!
Also, I really do not see the position of authority you are speaking about. But, well, I think I know where you got that one idea.
1. I have glasses.
2. Ah damn, I mixed up my reply to you with a reply to someone else that I eventually scrapped.
3. Okay, cool, you're totally in the right about that. You can respond to the rest of the post now, rather than be a pedant. Or at least be a THOROUGH pedant.
Let me be a semi-pedant, keep it short, and at least clarify that the "blunt accusations" I meant in my previous posts were - exclusively - the lie/mislead/screwover parts which I quoted, hence my failure to see the direct connection to the "raw stuff" in your and previously Shodan's post. Again: I fail to see how the facts (and some are in there, no doubt) lead to this unfavourable conclusion.
TTG was promising too much in more than one instance. That is very true. Most failures in that respect seem to be connected to market reality. Not that surprising for a relatively small and young company such as TTG. Still, an unkept "promise" is very, very different from a lie (Also, I can not find the blog entry that sais: "TTG herewith promises that we will release [...] on [...] within [...]", but yes, that is nitpicking).
If TTG was on that "screw the customer" track, JP preorderers might still wait for their refund instead of enjoying a free season. You and me, we both do not agree on the narrative/interactive goals of the BTTF game, but still this is a matter of gaming philosophy. I know you want to get your issues with the game on an absolute level ("objectively stupid"), but even if you managed to do this, it still is a philosophy that pleases many gamers out there. They're not screwed over, and TTG was not lying here.
I find the idea that the whole company is now "blinded by the money" (and lying/misleading/whatever) to be very unhelpful in the discussion. The Back to the Future Game wanted to cater to casual gamers, but well within an unpopular genre, so we are still talking about an artistic vision here, one that many perceive is very faulty. It is just not an attempt to "rip off customers".
Good thing with the glasses, though. I'd be blind without mine.
Let me be a semi-pedant, keep it short, and at least clarify that the "blunt accusations" I meant in my previous posts were - exclusively - the lie/mislead/screwover parts which I quoted, hence my failure to see the direct connection to the "raw stuff" in your and previously Shodan's post. Again: I fail to see how the facts (and some are in there, no doubt) lead to this unfavourable conclusion.
The conclusion may be harsh, and I think probably goes farther than my personal conclusions go, but honestly? It doesn't matter. What matters is that customers are being told one thing, and consistently they are being screwed over by Telltale NOT doing that thing for whatever reason. The only layer of harshness that SHODANFreeman adds to it is, at most, some MALICE or at least WILLFUL NEGLECT, and honestly I think that's as valid a conclusion as "They're just generally fucking up everything they tell the customers they're going to do in the future", and whatever the case is, they have the same end result regardless.
TTG was promising too much in more than one instance. That is very true. Most failures in that respect seem to be connected to market reality. Not that surprising for a relatively small and young company such as TTG. Still, an unkept "promise" is very, very different from a lie (Also, I can not find the blog entry that sais: "TTG herewith promises that we will release [...] on [...] within [...]", but yes, that is nitpicking).
Congratulations, Sam and Max fans! The polls have spoken, the public stood tall and crowned their victor, Sam and Max will be the next Telltale series to hit Mac computers! We're proud to host such a dedicated fanbase for all of our games, and don't worry, Strong Bad and Wallace and Gromit are not forgotten. We'll be making them available for Mac within the course of this year, so sit tight. The office is a flurry of activity and we're just as excited as you are!
I'd have to do a lot of forum digging to find the others, as they were made in forum posts or in blog posts for which I don't know the specific wording(so they're hard to Google), but perhaps SHODANFreeman can dig up some links to others. Whatever the case, the promises are ALSO not made up.
And for another, "Maketplace Realities" are the bullshit reason LucasArts made up for not shipping a nearly finished Sam and Max game. That is NOT the argument you want to be hiding behind.
If TTG was on that "screw the customer" track, JP preorderers might still wait for their refund instead of enjoying a free season.
Telltale does not have to do EVERY SINGLE THING they EVER do wrong in order to undermine customer loyalty and trust. If the vast majority of the things they promise to do fall out, With Jurassic Park, doing nothing was simply NOT AN OPTION. This affected their ENTIRE customer base for that title. They couldn't say "Only the really hardcore fans care, there's only 'x' number, screwing over 'x' number is worth not spending 'y' hours of work". Pushing a game back SIX MONTHS after already taking pre-orders is not something they would be able to sweep under the rug. The rest are promises to their core fanbase, made through the forum, through which it's easy to say empty words can be used as platitudes to the small number of ardent and hardcore fans.
Vain, you may feel that the arguments being made against Telltale have been made before and you're tired of continuing detailing your opposing view of it, but the reality is that people are still annoyed, frustrated and hurt by the actions that Telltale has been taking thus far. As such, they (we) feel continually compelled to complain about it until something is done to remedy the situation. Also, sure Dashing can be rather abrasive at times but I can't find reason to disagree with his or Shodan's logic.
We want to support Telltale. Telltale used to be considered by many of us as the best hope for the return of the adventure game genre to something even close to the status it once held. However, they seem to have become progressively less and less about producing quality content, especially when it comes to delivering content that is repeatedly requested by active forum members, because they seemingly are more interested in making the most profit in the shortest time than pleasing their core fanbase.
Before the dust settles on this thread, I have to chime in.
First, Dashing's long post has made a lot of good points. I'm not sure if the word was in it, but disappointment seems to be what gets many people up in verbal arms here. It's the very same when I look at my own recent posts, and Alan might have asked me just as well: "What is your angle". Disappointment is something preceded by expectations, and expectations are founded on the solid belief that something good might emerge.
Now I'll try and keep it short, but I have to repeat: TTG and BTTF. When this pairing was announced, I was ecstatic. I kept writing in e-mails that TTG seems to have begun making games exclusively geared towards me personally as their target audience. Back to the Future plus the gameplay of Sam & Max or Monkey Island, my expectation was quite frankly that it could not get any better. You can see this from my art output at the time, my sketchpad hardly had other characters on it from July to December!
[dashing quote]
It is this part where I agree most with Dashing. I don't "hate" BTTF. I see how much love has gone into the production of it, how much careful thought was put into keeping the franchise's distinct feel. I won't repeat in detail what the reasons for my disappointment were. They're spread in this forum enough as it is. But let me point out the specific reason why I keep criticising BTTF in these parts: Because TTG is not heading in my direction any more. I say "my direction" instead of "the right direction" on purpose. TTG has decided to put story/cinematics in place of gameplay, while my solid belief is that BOTH can be done at the same time. Jurassic Park is heading into this very same direction with a vengeance. Mind you: A LOT of people like that kind of "gameplay" obviously. So it IS an individual thing... sad to say.
The faint hope is, the more criticism you voice, the more Telltale might hear you. I think that's why people get loud in here, some even ugly. They want to change things and lead the path a little more in their direction, and they feel cheated because BTTF is not accidentally like that, but carries a visible philosophy with which they can not identify any more.
We probably can't help it on page 13, but on page 14, we must all work together hard to get this thread back on track before I have to "exercise my authority".
Now we get two completely inexcusably simple games, one of which gets delayed at Microsoft's whim, followed by a blatant lie that the delay is to "improve" the game.
Can you provide proof of this statement? Since you yourself said posting without proof (or something to that effect) was bad form and I've not seen or read anything that implies/proves this.
Problem is, everything is already said, multiple times and in all variations of intensity, and I'm unfortunately very bored of it. That's what happens if a discussion goes on too long. After the next releases, I might be ready to discuss this yet again. Until then, I don't see the need, even less in a thread that was intended for a different direction.
Can you provide proof of this statement? Since you yourself said posting without proof (or something to that effect) was bad form and I've not seen or read anything that implies/proves this.
The fact that the entire game will be complete in 5-6 months for Xbox 360 means that their development schedule has not changed at all.
Instead of releasing the episodes on PC over the next 5-6 months as they initially had planned, they will all come out in 5-6 months at once (at least for 360). This allows for nearly no further major improvements whatsoever, as episode 1 is almost certainly complete right now.
Initial release schedule:
Episode 1: April
Episode 2: May
Episode 3: June
Episode 4: July
Episode 5: August/September
Revised release schedule: All 5 episodes in "Fall" (Most likely September/October)
At best, this gives them 6 months to improve episode 1, 5 months to improve episode 2, 4 months to improve episode 3, 3 months to improve episode 4, and less than 2 months to improve episode 5, though most of that time will be relatively minor fixes with skeleton crews, as the meat of the development staff will still be working on the game as it was originally scheduled. Frankly, they don't have the resources to do anything beyond minor fixes and tweaks in just a few months while they are still in active production on episodes. If they had announced episode 1 would be launching in Fall, and monthly episodes after that, I would have believed they intended on performing some sweeping and substantial improvements, but as it stands now, the delay announcement being immediately followed by the Xbox 360 deal announcement, as well as Microsoft's history of paying for timed exclusives (which is also quite possible for JP, given that various news sites reported the 360 release will be disc-based and contain the full game, while other platforms will receive episodic releases) and bullying developers into doing what they want them to, is pretty damning evidence, in my opinion.
SHODANFreeman can dig up some links to others. Whatever the case, the promises are ALSO not made up.
In this blog post, they promise an iPad and poster prizes, and if you look carefully, it also states that you get "all 5 episodes". To date, we have still not received confirmation on whether or not this contest actually awarded a prize to anyone, and if so, what compensation was given for the 4 episodes promised as part of the prize that aren't even available, and likely never will be.
I am tired of researching random sources for things that I know are true, so if you want proof of the rest of what I've been saying, look it up yourself, I feel I've made my point.
Oh, and I concede the point about Wallace and Gromit being promised for iPad, as it turns out they never explicitly stated that anything other than Last Resort would come out, but releasing 1/4 of a game for the platform is a really strange decision, and it could easily be inferred that they had intended on releasing the remaining episodes.
How about the fact that they blatantly lied about the reason behind the delay, delayed an already finished episode 1 for PC players specifically because of the Xbox deal, and the release schedule suggests, if not confirms, that absolutely no significant improvements will be made? (And from what I hear, this is also confirmed by TTG themselves in the private forum)
I hesitate to get involved here, but I'd just like to point out the following about the above statements:
1) They are assumptions, not facts.
2) They are incorrect assumptions.
I hesitate to get involved here, but I'd just like to point out the following about the above statements:
1) They are assumptions, not facts.
2) They are incorrect assumptions.
If they're incorrect assumptions, then I would certainly like to know in what ways Telltale plans on improving the gameplay as shown in the videos (click things on screen to advance the story with seemingly no puzzles in sight or even the ability to move around) beyond minor tweaks and bugfixes, though I'm sure you are unable to comment on that.
It proves that, at best, episode 5 will be delayed by no more than 2 months from the original schedule, if at all. Is this enough time to improve on it in any substantial way?
I also have a very hard time believing that a game that was ready to release in April (episode 1) will have very much done to it by September/October, while they're still in active production on the remaining episodes.
It proves that, at best, episode 5 will be delayed by no more than 2 months from the original schedule, if at all. Is this enough time to improve on it in any substantial way?
I also have a very hard time believing that a game that was ready to release in April (episode 1) will have very much done to it by September/October, while they're still in active production on the remaining episodes.
How is it personal interpretation that episode 5 was originally scheduled to come out August/September, and the entire game is going to be out by November? This is 100% verifiable fact based on announcements TTG themselves have made, as well as the company's release schedule historically.
How much improvement do you think can honestly be done between April and November, while they are still in active development on the unfinished episodes? Short of them dumping another huge truckload of cash on the game, which they don't have after giving it away to everyone who pre-ordered, I can't imagine they have many resources free, especially given the fact that they're in pre-production on what, 6 other titles?
Based on historical evidence. Following the model of their previous releases, at this point in development, had episode 1 come out on time, episode 2 would likely have just been released, with active development continuing on episodes 3, 4 and 5 for the next 3-4 months.
I'm not just making crap up based on nothing, here.
If they're incorrect assumptions, then I would certainly like to know in what ways Telltale plans on improving the gameplay as shown in the videos (click things on screen to advance the story with seemingly no puzzles in sight or even the ability to move around) beyond minor tweaks and bugfixes, though I'm sure you are unable to comment on that.
Based on posts made in the insider forum, it sounds like the delay is more about improving the quality of the graphics and animation than significantly altering anything about the gameplay.
Telltale has gone from being my favorite video game company to one that I believe is actually harmful to the genre in a matter of less than a year. A Walking Dead game by Telltale would, at one point, be something I'd pick up excitedly. Hell, ANYTHING by Telltale, something like CSI excluded, would be an instant buy for me due to the name recognition alone. Now, the name recognition brings to mind something I should actually avoid. Back to the Future: The Game is entirely unforgivable in my eyes.
That's fine for you. I'm sorry you feel that way, and I'm happy that you're standing up for your thoughts. Unrepentant and unrelentingly. I can see how some people might think you were simply forcing your ideas or opinions on others when in truth you're just being passionate, angry, and perhaps a little inflexible in accepting that it's possible for someone to enjoy something that you don't. It's the reason I stopped paying attention to movie critics. I enjoy myself much more when I don't have someone telling me why I shouldn't be enjoying something and whether or not that is a commentary on my intelligence.
Personally I live in a less black-and-white view of the world, where some flaws (That "some" is my opinion, by the way) do not a fuck-up make, and such things as aesthetics, and fun, and other subjective things, can not be quantified or measured. But by all means carry on. I think I shall ignore you from now on, if you're going to spend your time abusing others for their opinions instead of maybe directing that unease at the company responsible for making you feel that way.
Edit: And I know that's not all you do, you do make good thorough points and back up most of your claims with your own reasoning.
That's fine for you. I'm sorry you feel that way, and I'm happy that you're standing up for your thoughts. Unrepentant and unrelentingly. I can see how some people might think you were simply forcing your ideas or opinions on others when in truth you're just being passionate, angry, and perhaps a little inflexible in accepting that it's possible for someone to enjoy something that you don't. It's the reason I stopped paying attention to movie critics. I enjoy myself much more when I don't have someone telling me why I shouldn't be enjoying something and whether or not that is a commentary on my intelligence.
Personally I live in a less black-and-white view of the world, where some flaws (That "some" is my opinion, by the way) do not a fuck-up make, and such things as aesthetics, and fun, and other subjective things, can not be quantified or measured. But by all means carry on. I think I shall ignore you from now on, if you're going to spend your time abusing others for their opinions instead of maybe directing that unease at the company responsible for making you feel that way.
Edit: And I know that's not all you do, you do make good thorough points and back up most of your claims with your own reasoning.
It isn't even possible to argue that BttF is a good game, unless you're judging it as a game for 5 year olds, and even then, the Putt-Putt games blow it out of the water as far as both interactivity and puzzle content.
Just because you like something doesn't make it a good game, and there is no argument that anyone has made to oppose the concept of BttF being an inherently bad game. I don't care if it has the greatest storyline, best dialogue, amazing cinematics, the most awesome music ever, perfect voice acting, if the puzzles are lame and so easy that you rarely even have to think, it's a bad game. If the people that enjoy the game for whatever other reasons would simply admit that the game mechanics are completely and totally lackluster, this conversation would've been over a long, long time ago.
Comments
True enough, same goes for the fact that I and others like the game and that we are not stupid or are not gamers because of that.
There is a difference between enjoying something and being challenged by it. No one is saying you aren't allowed to enjoy the game, we're saying it's a terrible game, mechanically, and the puzzles are so simple that an ape with brain damage could figure them out in short order.
Well, I didn't talk about people liking it being stupid or "non gamers".
I was comparing the game to other "easy games". I can enjoy an easy game, I'm not considering myself stupid or "non gamer", heh ? I just feel that the problem is somewhere else.
If you like the game, that's good for you, any improvement will make it even better in your eyes.
Though, it's true that, some points are clearly not only a matter of opinion.
And by seeing some people "fine" with major quantifiable flaws, then we have to say something otherwise the developer might think everything's ok while it's not.
I'm wrong, SHODANFreeman is wrong, Strayth is wrong, anyone who thinks anyone like we do is entirely wrong, and you're entirely in the right.
In such a situation, all the same, going into a discussion board, singling out one post(no matter how wrong or rude it might be), and simply saying "You're wrong, no I don't need to say why" is entirely pointless, and honestly it's rude and disrespectful. If you don't want to say WHY, then there's no point in posting, simple as that. That's not conversation. That's looking at another forum user, branding them an enemy, and thoughtlessly attacking while expecting everyone else around you to believe you're right.
And again, it doesn't matter if you are. It's still not right to treat this or ANY discussion like this.
To see that kind of post, from a mod specifically, is frankly quite disgusting. You should not only KNOW better, but try your best to PROMOTE better rather than giving credence to this kind of behavior.
If you're bored of it, and uninterested in the discussion, perhaps you should ignore it?
Also, the title of the thread is "Game too easy/ short / lacks puzzles Thread", so how is this even remotely off-topic?
How many times have we begged them to release this? Yet, it's still not done.
-You can't walk in Jurassic Park
-The Jurassic Park cancellation was made alongside the Microsoft Xbox 360 retail deal? And now all episodes are coming out at once, 6 months later, when they would have been done anyway?
-Releasing Episode 1 of 2 series on iPad followed by months of no word?
-The Wiiware version of Puzzle Agent, once announced, being gone without a word?
-The Mac ports of Season 1 of S&M and W&G, announced for "within the year", now well outside that deadline, without a single mention since the "within a year" announcement?
-The Wallace and Gromit DVD having online DRM and having next to no extras?
-No downloadable Earl Boen, announced while Will was still at the company.
-No downloadable or otherwise NutriSpecs
Because they aren't "obvious" to me, despite what you say in your own posts.
These are the things in SHODANFreeman's post, these are the things that counter, quite well I believe, the argument by corruptbiggins that, hey, you only dislike one game, that's quite silly to hate the company based off that.
Well, it's not, precisely because it's not just not liking one game. I just did "not like" The Devil's Playhouse, which was overall a disappointment for me. But during that season's run and through most of their actions since, Telltale's philosophy has been "Fuck the Customer, Get More Money". It's less like going to a restaurant once a week and having one bad meal, than it is like going every week, lately having one of the waiters being fairly rude to you, and finally one day the chef walks out personally, jumps up onto the table, drops his pants, and drops the contents of his bowels right onto your plate. At that point, no, no it is not an overreaction to decide that buying from that place is no longer very much worth the strain on your budget, no matter how good the food was before. And no, it's not right to then look at all of that, say "lol no", and walk off. If you have nothing to say, or you don't want to actually say anything, then for everyone's sake just don't say anything, because you effectively already have, but with the side effect of being harmful to the very concept of a forum, ESPECIALLY with you being in the position of authority that you have.
How hypocrite. Don't you remember our posts were moved here ?
Add a slash "general complaints towards the game and Tell tale Games' recent policy" if that is really a problem.
In short: No need to rebutt what I did not argue against. Also, I only see scarce connection between your bullet points and Shodan's blunt accusations. I quoted one particular sentence and my comment was not surprisingly meant to react to specifically this sentence. Lying. Misleading. Screwing over: That's exclusively what got the "No.". As you well know, I'd even support some other arguments in that post. I was arguing against intent on TTG's side.
But for the simple sake of TL;DR: If you are so absolutely sure what to expect from Jurassic Park, where is that element of "lying" and "misleading" which Shodan finds so central to TTG's recent endeavours (and that is what I found offensive)? Fans wanted TT games on XBox, now they're getting it. Do you find that wrong? Is anyone "screwed over" here? All those PC preorderers who now get a free season, are these the fucked customers you were just talking about? If contrary to TTG's original plans episodes are not released on iPad or Mac (the latter a completely free bonus in the first place!), is that undoubtedly a "lie" or "deceit" to you? It may well be a disappointment, but that's about it. Same goes for "Earl Boen" and the "NutriSpecs" (both nice-to-haves maybe, but I don't really miss them).
Also, I really do not see the position of authority you are speaking about. But, well, I think I know where you got that one idea.
And no, I did not know that recent posts were moved here. So, what about calling me a hypocrite? And what about getting the thread back on track nonetheless?
How about the fact that they blatantly lied about the reason behind the delay, delayed an already finished episode 1 for PC players specifically because of the Xbox deal, and the release schedule suggests, if not confirms, that absolutely no significant improvements will be made? (And from what I hear, this is also confirmed by TTG themselves in the private forum)
"Completely free bonus"? You realize there are fans/customers who exclusively own a Mac, right? People who do not already own the PC versions? These people were promised ports of a game and then TTG simply ignored their promise. Breaking a promise is the same thing as lying. You can't go around tossing out promises constantly and never making good on them.
"Nice-to-have" or not, they were promised and then they were not delivered. I don't care if they're a big deal or not, the big deal is that they continually announce and promise things that they have no intention of delivering, and they never even let us know that they have no intention of delivering them. The best we got was Jake apologizing for the lack of Nutrispecs on the DVD, which was appreciated but still doesn't fix the issue. They haven't said a single word on the Earl Boen issue in at least a year, and it was repeatedly promised by several members of staff.
My bullet points are RIPPED from his stark accusations!
-You can't walk in Jurassic Park -The Jurassic Park cancellation was made alongside the Microsoft Xbox 360 retail deal? And now all episodes are coming out at once, 6 months later, when they would have been done anyway? -Releasing Episode 1 of 2 series on iPad followed by months of no word? -The Wiiware version of Puzzle Agent, once announced, being gone without a word? -The Mac ports of Season 1 of S&M and W&G, announced for "within the year", now well outside that deadline, without a single mention since the "within a year" announcement? -The Wallace and Gromit DVD having online DRM and having next to no extras? -No downloadable Earl Boen, announced while Will was still at the company. -No downloadable or otherwise NutriSpecs Because they aren't "obvious" to me, despite what you say in your own posts.
None of my bullet points were original. I just ripped the ideas out of his post, stripped them of emotion, and reposted them in raw data form to make a point.
While I wouldn't say "lying", I'd certainly say "misleading", or at least "promising without the fullest intention to deliver on those promises in a timely fashion, or within the timeframe they allotted themselves". None of those things are items we made up, the list is entirely made up of things that Telltale themselves PROMISED to customers, through the blog and through customer forum posts. To make those promises and not fulfill them after a YEAR shows, at least, a massive amount of disrespect for the customer and a lack of regard for their own word. This, plainly, SUCKS, and is a massive 180 from what the company's line was only a couple years ago.
This has nothing to do with anything that was said.
The latter is NOT a "free bonus", any more than the iPad version is. If you only have a Mac, and their BIG MAC PUSH got you excited for the Mac releases, then FUCK YOU because they aren't releasing for your computer. Yes, that is being screwed over, being told that it is coming to your platform within the year and then having two pass without a single word hence. That is quite possibly the DEFINITION of being screwed over.
Yes, it is deceitful. They specifically outlined, on their blog, that the games would be done in a certain order, and "within the year", and even gave rough estimates. Then, the voters were entirely ignored as a different order entirely was set about, and then they didn't release the voted-for Sam and Max Season One, you know, the franchise that WON the big press poll they did that brought traffic to their site. So yes, it comes off as extremely deceitful and wrong.
Except we were told we would get them. Several times. And we were even told it'd be on the DVD, and apparently somebody was asleep at the wheel at the time because they didn't supply it at all. Same with the Earl Boen recording. It provides the same voice for LeChuck across the entire season, it should be there for consistency of the product(what other game have you played that changed voice actors partway through?!), and it was PROMISED TO CUSTOMERS. To SAY you will do something and then NOT do it, no matter how little effort it might take, is the definition of lying and deceit, especially when no mention is made of the change of plans afterward. At the very least, THAT was dishonest!
....YOU.
ARE.
A.
MOD.
Go get some glasses.
2. Ah damn, I mixed up my reply to you with a reply to someone else that I eventually scrapped.
3. Okay, cool, you're totally in the right about that. You can respond to the rest of the post now, rather than be a pedant. Or at least be a THOROUGH pedant.
TTG was promising too much in more than one instance. That is very true. Most failures in that respect seem to be connected to market reality. Not that surprising for a relatively small and young company such as TTG. Still, an unkept "promise" is very, very different from a lie (Also, I can not find the blog entry that sais: "TTG herewith promises that we will release [...] on [...] within [...]", but yes, that is nitpicking).
If TTG was on that "screw the customer" track, JP preorderers might still wait for their refund instead of enjoying a free season. You and me, we both do not agree on the narrative/interactive goals of the BTTF game, but still this is a matter of gaming philosophy. I know you want to get your issues with the game on an absolute level ("objectively stupid"), but even if you managed to do this, it still is a philosophy that pleases many gamers out there. They're not screwed over, and TTG was not lying here.
I find the idea that the whole company is now "blinded by the money" (and lying/misleading/whatever) to be very unhelpful in the discussion. The Back to the Future Game wanted to cater to casual gamers, but well within an unpopular genre, so we are still talking about an artistic vision here, one that many perceive is very faulty. It is just not an attempt to "rip off customers".
Good thing with the glasses, though. I'd be blind without mine.
Well, for one:
-Source
I'd have to do a lot of forum digging to find the others, as they were made in forum posts or in blog posts for which I don't know the specific wording(so they're hard to Google), but perhaps SHODANFreeman can dig up some links to others. Whatever the case, the promises are ALSO not made up.
And for another, "Maketplace Realities" are the bullshit reason LucasArts made up for not shipping a nearly finished Sam and Max game. That is NOT the argument you want to be hiding behind. Telltale does not have to do EVERY SINGLE THING they EVER do wrong in order to undermine customer loyalty and trust. If the vast majority of the things they promise to do fall out, With Jurassic Park, doing nothing was simply NOT AN OPTION. This affected their ENTIRE customer base for that title. They couldn't say "Only the really hardcore fans care, there's only 'x' number, screwing over 'x' number is worth not spending 'y' hours of work". Pushing a game back SIX MONTHS after already taking pre-orders is not something they would be able to sweep under the rug. The rest are promises to their core fanbase, made through the forum, through which it's easy to say empty words can be used as platitudes to the small number of ardent and hardcore fans.
We want to support Telltale. Telltale used to be considered by many of us as the best hope for the return of the adventure game genre to something even close to the status it once held. However, they seem to have become progressively less and less about producing quality content, especially when it comes to delivering content that is repeatedly requested by active forum members, because they seemingly are more interested in making the most profit in the shortest time than pleasing their core fanbase.
We probably can't help it on page 13, but on page 14, we must all work together hard to get this thread back on track before I have to "exercise my authority".
Can you provide proof of this statement? Since you yourself said posting without proof (or something to that effect) was bad form and I've not seen or read anything that implies/proves this.
EDIT: Damn! spilled over in #14
+1 :cool:
At best, this gives them 6 months to improve episode 1, 5 months to improve episode 2, 4 months to improve episode 3, 3 months to improve episode 4, and less than 2 months to improve episode 5, though most of that time will be relatively minor fixes with skeleton crews, as the meat of the development staff will still be working on the game as it was originally scheduled. Frankly, they don't have the resources to do anything beyond minor fixes and tweaks in just a few months while they are still in active production on episodes. If they had announced episode 1 would be launching in Fall, and monthly episodes after that, I would have believed they intended on performing some sweeping and substantial improvements, but as it stands now, the delay announcement being immediately followed by the Xbox 360 deal announcement, as well as Microsoft's history of paying for timed exclusives (which is also quite possible for JP, given that various news sites reported the 360 release will be disc-based and contain the full game, while other platforms will receive episodic releases) and bullying developers into doing what they want them to, is pretty damning evidence, in my opinion.
In this blog post, they promise an iPad and poster prizes, and if you look carefully, it also states that you get "all 5 episodes". To date, we have still not received confirmation on whether or not this contest actually awarded a prize to anyone, and if so, what compensation was given for the 4 episodes promised as part of the prize that aren't even available, and likely never will be.
Here they promise the rest of TMI for iPad in 2011, which they can still meet (and repeatedly insist that they will), but given their history on the platform, I'm skeptical, at best.
Here is confirmation that the retail DVD installs two files that make the game unplayable.
I am tired of researching random sources for things that I know are true, so if you want proof of the rest of what I've been saying, look it up yourself, I feel I've made my point.
Oh, and I concede the point about Wallace and Gromit being promised for iPad, as it turns out they never explicitly stated that anything other than Last Resort would come out, but releasing 1/4 of a game for the platform is a really strange decision, and it could easily be inferred that they had intended on releasing the remaining episodes.
simply quoting one of your own posts with, what is at best conjecture, is not proof.
Sorry, I don't want to sound negative but I need something a little more concrete than that to sway my opinion.
You don't think that outlining their exact release schedules before and after the delay announcement is concrete enough?
I hesitate to get involved here, but I'd just like to point out the following about the above statements:
1) They are assumptions, not facts.
2) They are incorrect assumptions.
If they're incorrect assumptions, then I would certainly like to know in what ways Telltale plans on improving the gameplay as shown in the videos (click things on screen to advance the story with seemingly no puzzles in sight or even the ability to move around) beyond minor tweaks and bugfixes, though I'm sure you are unable to comment on that.
Frankly, no I don't as it's no proof at all...
It proves that, at best, episode 5 will be delayed by no more than 2 months from the original schedule, if at all. Is this enough time to improve on it in any substantial way?
I also have a very hard time believing that a game that was ready to release in April (episode 1) will have very much done to it by September/October, while they're still in active production on the remaining episodes.
Again personal interpretation not facts.
How is it personal interpretation that episode 5 was originally scheduled to come out August/September, and the entire game is going to be out by November? This is 100% verifiable fact based on announcements TTG themselves have made, as well as the company's release schedule historically.
How much improvement do you think can honestly be done between April and November, while they are still in active development on the unfinished episodes? Short of them dumping another huge truckload of cash on the game, which they don't have after giving it away to everyone who pre-ordered, I can't imagine they have many resources free, especially given the fact that they're in pre-production on what, 6 other titles?
Not for something that is on a backburner with a skeleton crew for most of the 8 months.
Based on historical evidence. Following the model of their previous releases, at this point in development, had episode 1 come out on time, episode 2 would likely have just been released, with active development continuing on episodes 3, 4 and 5 for the next 3-4 months.
I'm not just making crap up based on nothing, here.
Based on posts made in the insider forum, it sounds like the delay is more about improving the quality of the graphics and animation than significantly altering anything about the gameplay.
That's fine for you. I'm sorry you feel that way, and I'm happy that you're standing up for your thoughts. Unrepentant and unrelentingly. I can see how some people might think you were simply forcing your ideas or opinions on others when in truth you're just being passionate, angry, and perhaps a little inflexible in accepting that it's possible for someone to enjoy something that you don't. It's the reason I stopped paying attention to movie critics. I enjoy myself much more when I don't have someone telling me why I shouldn't be enjoying something and whether or not that is a commentary on my intelligence.
Personally I live in a less black-and-white view of the world, where some flaws (That "some" is my opinion, by the way) do not a fuck-up make, and such things as aesthetics, and fun, and other subjective things, can not be quantified or measured. But by all means carry on. I think I shall ignore you from now on, if you're going to spend your time abusing others for their opinions instead of maybe directing that unease at the company responsible for making you feel that way.
Edit: And I know that's not all you do, you do make good thorough points and back up most of your claims with your own reasoning.
It isn't even possible to argue that BttF is a good game, unless you're judging it as a game for 5 year olds, and even then, the Putt-Putt games blow it out of the water as far as both interactivity and puzzle content.
Just because you like something doesn't make it a good game, and there is no argument that anyone has made to oppose the concept of BttF being an inherently bad game. I don't care if it has the greatest storyline, best dialogue, amazing cinematics, the most awesome music ever, perfect voice acting, if the puzzles are lame and so easy that you rarely even have to think, it's a bad game. If the people that enjoy the game for whatever other reasons would simply admit that the game mechanics are completely and totally lackluster, this conversation would've been over a long, long time ago.