To the Western-culture players who found the Western-culture references recognizable in all the other King's Quest games that were made by Western-culture game designers. Did that really need to be said? Look, I understand that not all KQ players are from the West, and obviously my statement would not hold true in those cases. Please note that I also stated I was in favor of expanding the references beyond Western ones. But KQ's basic premise stems from a Western medieval setting, and my statements simply follow from there. They were not intended to apply to anything beyond the King's Quest series.
To the Western-culture players who found the Western-culture references recognizable in all the other King's Quest games that were made by Western-culture game designers. Did that really need to be said? Look, I understand that not all KQ players are from the West, and obviously my statement would not hold true in those cases. Please note that I also stated I was in favor of expanding the references beyond Western ones. But KQ's basic premise stems from a Western medieval setting, and my statements simply follow from there. They were not intended to apply to anything beyond the King's Quest series.
I'm not trying to make a big issue of it or anything. I just remember being taught about Quetzalcoatl as early as 5th/6th grade by my grandmother and mother. I'm familiar with European mythology, but also pretty well acquainted with Mexican mythology and folklore, though my great grandparents were especially well learned in Mexican folklore.
This is a big issue. I agree that what made the references great to me in the early games was their familiarity. If you don't catch the reference, it could come across as out of place. If I didn't know the story of rumplestiltskin, the gnome in KQ1 and the spinning wheel in KQ5 would have been out of place. There are many many more examples of this throughout. At the end of the day you have to ask the question, "who is the game marketed to?" I think the references used should be familiar to that group. You can't please everyone. For me, as a kid I would have never gotten into KQ if I didn't know the references to fairy tales...etc. Now as an adult I feel as though if I am less familiar with something it will inspire me to learn something new. I am more open to almost any form of legend/myth/fairy tale from almost any part of the world, but I would not have been 20 years ago.
Also, stay away from Tolkien/Lord of the Rings.
To this I'll only add, I believe I agree, though determining the obscure can be difficult.
And what I meant by the post was more that KQ has had a pretty large variety of mythology and scenery, at least since KQV and VI. For the sake of argument, there was some vaguely mesoamerican stuff in the early parts of KQVII as well.
And Daishi is correct. Ziggurats were found in both regions. All it is is a temple built on a raised area. Anyway, that wasn't really the point.
And Daishi is correct. Ziggurats were found in both regions. All it is is a temple built on a raised area. Anyway, that wasn't really the point.
No, you are both incorrect.
Mesoamerican peoples built stepped pyramids, not ziggurats. They may look somewhat similar, but they are distinctly different in both design and function.
A ziggurat is not "a temple built on a raised area." First of all, ziggurats are the platforms, not the temples. The temple was a separate building that sat on top of the ziggurat.
Secondly, ziggurats are built according to what is called a bent-axis-plan, which, among other things, means that the access stairways typically change direction several times before they reach the top-most segment, and that they don't lead right to the temple door. You won't find this feature in Mesoamerican pyramids.
I could go on, but it'd be getting pretty off topic. I never intended that comment as anything more than a throwaway joke anyway.
As many of us have found actually quite a few references in previous KQ games a fairly obscure and not recognizable to the average player. In fact you have to go out of your way to discover were the references originate from.
As for Tolkien references KQ8 tried it already... That's largely were the Orcs came from... Along with other high fantasy archetypes in that game .
The twin snakes statue in KQ5 is also a reference to Black Watchers at Cirith Ungol, a gate into Mordor from Return of the King and the Neverending Story according to the Companion! Sam held up the Galadriel's crystal vial to counteract the deadly force from the statues eyes. This is actually one of the most direct concepts taken from Tolkien's story and readapted into the KQ world (rather than just adapting races from the books). It's also in my opinion a great example how Tolkien can be incorporated without feeling out of place at all!
Actually it really depends on what Tolkien works you are talking about the Hobbit is more fairy tale/children's story for example. Very different from his trilogy which was written for grown-ups (at least it mostly turned out that way). The Silmerillion would be even more removed, although it is quite mythic and legendary, and even biblical in it's own sense.
I don't say this in all seriousness, but rather than dropping a ring into mount doom, Graham drops cheese into a strange machine!
As for some mesoamerican stuff see desert in KQ7.
Other references in KQ8 are even biblical in nature, Lucreto for example is inspired by the fallen angel Lucifer, who attempted to be like God. The inspiration for the mask itself is a mix of Mesopotamian and Christian concepts. There is even a few references to the concept of trinity and the sacred number 7 made in the game. Don't overlook the bible as a source of inspiration.
Maybe it's not my place, but could you consider not posting so many images? A lot of what you've posted look like duplicates, and it's just...so cluttered...It just doesn't really serve much of a purpose when you could upload them to an image-sharing service. Just my thoughts...
Maybe it's not my place, but could you consider not posting so many images? A lot of what you've posted look like duplicates, and it's just...so cluttered...It just doesn't really serve much of a purpose when you could upload them to an image-sharing service. Just my thoughts...
EXACTLY.
First of all, this is not a thread for images--try the Art Direction thread. Secondly, the sheer AMOUNT is absolutely ridiculous overkill. You've basically broken this thread for anyone without high-speed internet.
While I am a fan of Japanese mythology it might seem out of place in Daventry, but could be usable in King's Quest as the basis for another realm to visit. Also, I think at this point drawing from Tolkien has been done to death.
@Feazy: You are quite right. Thank you for being very polite about it!
EDIT: I deleted my image posts after the (justified) criticism from other users. At this point I want to just cut my losses and not invest another day on rethinking and uploading and sorting the images on some hosting service. That might also be playing fast and loose with the copyrights, so that is another point in favour of just forgetting about it.
But for anyone who might be interested, the images were from:
• the Aztec section of the Cryo game Beyond Atlantis (Quetzalcoatl, Tezcatlipoca, Chac the frog, etc.)
• the episode called "The Feathered Serpent" from Interplay's Star Trek: 25th Anniversary (a humanoid Quetzecoatl [sic] and similarly lush colours as in Beyond Atlantis)
• a tiny segment of the teaser trailer for Gabriel Knight 3 (Aztec reference)
• the episode "How Sharper Than a Serpent's Tooth" from the animated Star Trek (Kukulkan)
• Alan Moore's Tom Strong comics
• and the photo and accompanying comment from this entry from the blog of M John Harrison:
I make no claim that all of these are great art, all I can say is that they have been very inspirational to me personally. But it certainly seems to me that this is an extremely fertile area for any work of entertainment to explore.
King's Quest has mostly been centered on European folklore, later reaching out to the Arabian Nights tales and nonsense (as in surreal) literature. Are there any other ethnic folklores/literature that I should consider? Would these other folklores feel off brand? I am partial to Chinese and Japanese legend, but that just seems totally out of left field for a King's Quest game. What do you think?
What about considering the norwegian fairy tales and folklore by Asbjørnsen and Moe. This may not be very familiar to people outside of Norway, but there is many elements in these storyes that would fit perfektly in a king's quest game.:)
I've been reading a lot of Russian folklore recently myself. It's amazing how many stories revolve around "The dumbest of three kids was so dumb he didn't know anything but being happy all day, and he went on an adventure and was nice to a bunch of people who eventually helped him marry a princess".
Well, maybe I'm over simplifying things there. The "helped him" part is usually where the fun stuff happens anyway
It's amazing the common storytelling threads that tie together the Monomyth the world over!
It's amazing the common storytelling threads that tie together the Monomyth the world over!
That's why I find comparative mythology so fascinating and really enjoy a good mythological hodgepodge in the fantasy fiction I read/play/watch/experience.
What about considering the norwegian fairy tales and folklore by Asbjørnsen and Moe. This may not be very familiar to people outside of Norway, but there is many elements in these storyes that would fit perfektly in a king's quest game.:)
I think it's a great idea, and one could certainly pull more from Norse mythology as well (like the fantastic Valhall cartoons/movie with the artwork by Peter Madsen).
I definitely agree with harrisonpink. Have you seen Jim Henson's Storyteller? They use a lot of Russian folklore and they all seem like that.
As to the mythology, I think that so much of the charm of the KQ games was the hidden (or not-so-hidden) references to folk-tale and mythology, but also to earlier games in the series and other Sierra games. I think it would be great to keep that going, possibly including references to other TellTale franchises.
Don't forget North American folklore like Paul Bunyan, or the stories of Washington Irving. Or bigfoot. For those of us who remember the good ol' days of computer adventure gaming, how 'bout references to some classics, like Death on the Caribbean, The Great Underground Empire, Below the Root, or even Michael Crichton's Amazon.
I guess I'm the only one who would think that including references to LOTR would be a good idea. These reimagined KQ games must appeal to OG fans of the series as well as new, younger gamers. Besides, these references don't even need to be part of the puzzles, just background.
Regarding Asian folklore, I think this would be very appropriate to the series. I think KQ was always willing to explore myths that would be recognized by its audience, regardless of origin. I recall learning some Japanese folklore when I was very young, like Urashima Taro. And who among people my age doesn't remember Liang and the Magic Paint Brush from Reading Rainbow? Or Tiki Tiki Tembo? Or the *ahem* Five Chinese Brothers. I think there's definitely room to include true folklore or fairy tales from many other cultures. One of the funnest things about playing the original (especially 1-4) games, was going to the encyclopedia or library to look up the source stories or myths for inspiration to solve the puzzles. Living in such a small, small world as we do today, I think mixing the familiar with the exotic would keep that sense of excitement, as well as opening the franchise to more people.
One last thing. I too, really loved the works of Lloyd Alexander. So I would definitely recommend reading the Mabinogion, (which, I believe is the greatest inspiration for the Prydain Chronicles).
Comments
To the Western-culture players who found the Western-culture references recognizable in all the other King's Quest games that were made by Western-culture game designers. Did that really need to be said? Look, I understand that not all KQ players are from the West, and obviously my statement would not hold true in those cases. Please note that I also stated I was in favor of expanding the references beyond Western ones. But KQ's basic premise stems from a Western medieval setting, and my statements simply follow from there. They were not intended to apply to anything beyond the King's Quest series.
The best ziggurats of all!
I'm not trying to make a big issue of it or anything. I just remember being taught about Quetzalcoatl as early as 5th/6th grade by my grandmother and mother. I'm familiar with European mythology, but also pretty well acquainted with Mexican mythology and folklore, though my great grandparents were especially well learned in Mexican folklore.
To this I'll only add, I believe I agree, though determining the obscure can be difficult.
YES.
And what I meant by the post was more that KQ has had a pretty large variety of mythology and scenery, at least since KQV and VI. For the sake of argument, there was some vaguely mesoamerican stuff in the early parts of KQVII as well.
And Daishi is correct. Ziggurats were found in both regions. All it is is a temple built on a raised area. Anyway, that wasn't really the point.
No, you are both incorrect.
Mesoamerican peoples built stepped pyramids, not ziggurats. They may look somewhat similar, but they are distinctly different in both design and function.
A ziggurat is not "a temple built on a raised area." First of all, ziggurats are the platforms, not the temples. The temple was a separate building that sat on top of the ziggurat.
Secondly, ziggurats are built according to what is called a bent-axis-plan, which, among other things, means that the access stairways typically change direction several times before they reach the top-most segment, and that they don't lead right to the temple door. You won't find this feature in Mesoamerican pyramids.
I could go on, but it'd be getting pretty off topic.
As for Tolkien references KQ8 tried it already... That's largely were the Orcs came from... Along with other high fantasy archetypes in that game
The twin snakes statue in KQ5 is also a reference to Black Watchers at Cirith Ungol, a gate into Mordor from Return of the King and the Neverending Story according to the Companion! Sam held up the Galadriel's crystal vial to counteract the deadly force from the statues eyes. This is actually one of the most direct concepts taken from Tolkien's story and readapted into the KQ world (rather than just adapting races from the books). It's also in my opinion a great example how Tolkien can be incorporated without feeling out of place at all!
Actually it really depends on what Tolkien works you are talking about the Hobbit is more fairy tale/children's story for example. Very different from his trilogy which was written for grown-ups (at least it mostly turned out that way). The Silmerillion would be even more removed, although it is quite mythic and legendary, and even biblical in it's own sense.
I don't say this in all seriousness, but rather than dropping a ring into mount doom, Graham drops cheese into a strange machine!
As for some mesoamerican stuff see desert in KQ7.
Other references in KQ8 are even biblical in nature, Lucreto for example is inspired by the fallen angel Lucifer, who attempted to be like God. The inspiration for the mask itself is a mix of Mesopotamian and Christian concepts. There is even a few references to the concept of trinity and the sacred number 7 made in the game. Don't overlook the bible as a source of inspiration.
EXACTLY.
First of all, this is not a thread for images--try the Art Direction thread. Secondly, the sheer AMOUNT is absolutely ridiculous overkill. You've basically broken this thread for anyone without high-speed internet.
EDIT: I deleted my image posts after the (justified) criticism from other users. At this point I want to just cut my losses and not invest another day on rethinking and uploading and sorting the images on some hosting service. That might also be playing fast and loose with the copyrights, so that is another point in favour of just forgetting about it.
But for anyone who might be interested, the images were from:
• the Aztec section of the Cryo game Beyond Atlantis (Quetzalcoatl, Tezcatlipoca, Chac the frog, etc.)
• the episode called "The Feathered Serpent" from Interplay's Star Trek: 25th Anniversary (a humanoid Quetzecoatl [sic] and similarly lush colours as in Beyond Atlantis)
• a tiny segment of the teaser trailer for Gabriel Knight 3 (Aztec reference)
• the episode "How Sharper Than a Serpent's Tooth" from the animated Star Trek (Kukulkan)
• Alan Moore's Tom Strong comics
• and the photo and accompanying comment from this entry from the blog of M John Harrison:
http://ambientehotel.wordpress.com/2009/05/13/livelier-than-the-average-dragon/
I make no claim that all of these are great art, all I can say is that they have been very inspirational to me personally. But it certainly seems to me that this is an extremely fertile area for any work of entertainment to explore.
The Instructions by Neil Gaiman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Gaiman
Oh! He wrote Stardust! I haven't read the book, but the movie reminded me of King's Quest a lot!
What about considering the norwegian fairy tales and folklore by Asbjørnsen and Moe. This may not be very familiar to people outside of Norway, but there is many elements in these storyes that would fit perfektly in a king's quest game.:)
The irony here is tangible.
Well, maybe I'm over simplifying things there. The "helped him" part is usually where the fun stuff happens anyway
It's amazing the common storytelling threads that tie together the Monomyth the world over!
That's why I find comparative mythology so fascinating and really enjoy a good mythological hodgepodge in the fantasy fiction I read/play/watch/experience.
I think it's a great idea, and one could certainly pull more from Norse mythology as well (like the fantastic Valhall cartoons/movie with the artwork by Peter Madsen).
As to the mythology, I think that so much of the charm of the KQ games was the hidden (or not-so-hidden) references to folk-tale and mythology, but also to earlier games in the series and other Sierra games. I think it would be great to keep that going, possibly including references to other TellTale franchises.
Don't forget North American folklore like Paul Bunyan, or the stories of Washington Irving. Or bigfoot. For those of us who remember the good ol' days of computer adventure gaming, how 'bout references to some classics, like Death on the Caribbean, The Great Underground Empire, Below the Root, or even Michael Crichton's Amazon.
I guess I'm the only one who would think that including references to LOTR would be a good idea. These reimagined KQ games must appeal to OG fans of the series as well as new, younger gamers. Besides, these references don't even need to be part of the puzzles, just background.
Regarding Asian folklore, I think this would be very appropriate to the series. I think KQ was always willing to explore myths that would be recognized by its audience, regardless of origin. I recall learning some Japanese folklore when I was very young, like Urashima Taro. And who among people my age doesn't remember Liang and the Magic Paint Brush from Reading Rainbow? Or Tiki Tiki Tembo? Or the *ahem* Five Chinese Brothers. I think there's definitely room to include true folklore or fairy tales from many other cultures. One of the funnest things about playing the original (especially 1-4) games, was going to the encyclopedia or library to look up the source stories or myths for inspiration to solve the puzzles. Living in such a small, small world as we do today, I think mixing the familiar with the exotic would keep that sense of excitement, as well as opening the franchise to more people.
One last thing. I too, really loved the works of Lloyd Alexander. So I would definitely recommend reading the Mabinogion, (which, I believe is the greatest inspiration for the Prydain Chronicles).