Time Paradoxes

Hey guys,

Just wondering if even without the release of OUTATIME, how would you wrap up the series of the games, taking into consideration the first three movies and not having an issue with paradoxes in those as well?

Its racking my brain something shocking trying to think of an ending. The only way I can see it is with the old doc coming back.

Comments

  • edited May 2011
    Duplicate Doc from 2025 comes to the rescue. Well, I am anxious to see if the final episode addresses that issue in some form.
  • We really know very little about the episode at this point. The preview at the end of episode 4 didnt tell us much we didnt already know except the fact that FCB 1986 is shown (which I guess is a big plot point; the fact that the timeline is still the first citizen timeline or will be restored to that at some point in the timeline).

    The cinematic chase through time will almost definitely involve a 2nd delorean. I'm rooting for it to be old doc vs. FCB (accomplished either by burrowing old doc from a time period he travelled to or having him duplicated in 2025)
  • edited May 2011
    Using BTTF logic, if you go into the future in an alternate timeline, it will be a say 2025 for that alternate timeline. Therefore you will see the alternate timeline in the future. So therefore the only way to fix something is to go back in time.
  • VeryTori wrote: »
    Using BTTF logic, if you go into the future in an alternate timeline, it will be a say 2025 for that alternate timeline. Therefore you will see the alternate timeline in the future. So therefore the only way to fix something is to go back in time.

    you're right but the premise does indicate the future is shown. Maybe it'll be like a christmas carol where we see a future of what happens if the timeline is not fixed.
  • edited May 2011
    I got a little confused when Doc faded at the end of Get Tannen and the delorean still existed. I thought if doc didnt pursue and interest in science and got involved with edna it would erase the stories of the 3 movies and the game itself, and marty would end up never knowing doc, his parents would have met because George was hit by Lorraine's dad's car and he would still be a pushover with biff.

    Then again in 1985 when marty returned and had a richer lifestyle he was still his old self with humble begginnings. If that makes sense. He was still the marty from the start of the movie with a totaled car he couldnt take jennifer to the lake in and an alcoholic mother.

    Heres a question and if anyone could answer it, it would be much appreciated?

    What about the second marty in 1985 at Lone Pine Mall that went back in time as the original marty watched. Whats his story? Because when the first marty went back it was Twin Pines mall and was a different timeline.

    Did he only know success and wealth because the first marty which went back in time had changed the course of history?

    Im a bit of moron with this stuff, so yeah - thanks for the reply to my previous question guys
  • edited May 2011
    The main issue is: If Doc never existed as Doc Brown, Marty would have never gone back in time and caused everything leading up to FCB's creation. :(
  • edited May 2011
    Yeah it seems the case, i think its called the grandfather paradox or something where if you remove the reason for travelling back in time then the time travel itself ceases to exist.
  • edited May 2011
    What about the second marty in 1985 at Lone Pine Mall that went back in time as the original marty watched. Whats his story? Because when the first marty went back it was Twin Pines mall and was a different timeline.

    My theory is that, ultimately, TP Marty fuses with LP Marty - and he ends up remembering both timelines. I always figured that both Martys, more or less, had the same personality.
  • I got a little confused when Doc faded at the end of Get Tannen and the delorean still existed. I thought if doc didnt pursue and interest in science and got involved with edna it would erase the stories of the 3 movies and the game itself, and marty would end up never knowing doc, his parents would have met because George was hit by Lorraine's dad's car and he would still be a pushover with biff.

    Then again in 1985 when marty returned and had a richer lifestyle he was still his old self with humble begginnings. If that makes sense. He was still the marty from the start of the movie with a totaled car he couldnt take jennifer to the lake in and an alcoholic mother.

    Heres a question and if anyone could answer it, it would be much appreciated?

    What about the second marty in 1985 at Lone Pine Mall that went back in time as the original marty watched. Whats his story? Because when the first marty went back it was Twin Pines mall and was a different timeline.

    Did he only know success and wealth because the first marty which went back in time had changed the course of history?

    Im a bit of moron with this stuff, so yeah - thanks for the reply to my previous question guys

    it is established that time travellers only remember events they have experienced and do not remember newer versions of the timeline which they created; marty doesnt remember george becoming an author or his father dying. Doc doesn't remember getting committed or finding out about his older self's tombstomb and sending marty back to save him.

    These movies and games are shown from the first time travel's perspective. So we dont really know what Lone pine marty remembers. Likewise in part II when they return to 1985, we dont know which timeline the 'other marty' is from whether it's the old timeline, good timeline, or biffhoric one.
  • edited May 2011
    Yeah it seems the case, i think its called the grandfather paradox or something where if you remove the reason for travelling back in time then the time travel itself ceases to exist.

    I remember hearing/reading something about quantum physics about how traveling into the past to change history is impossible because if you did the object you were seeking to remove would never have existed, thus your present day self would never have had a reason to go back and change in the first place, thus time cannot be changed.

    The best movie to show this (in sci fi) is 12 Monkeys, it has a perfect paradox time travel story.
  • edited May 2011
    So I just guilelessly suspend my disbelief and enjoy the movies/ games. :)
  • edited May 2011
    Thanks heaps for that guys, it cleared up a lot!
  • edited May 2011
    I'm so confused right now with those paradoxes. I think Marty will destroy the space time continuum with those crazy temporal displacements.
  • edited May 2011
    it is established that time travellers only remember events they have experienced and do not remember newer versions of the timeline which they created; marty doesnt remember george becoming an author or his father dying. Doc doesn't remember getting committed or finding out about his older self's tombstomb and sending marty back to save him.

    These movies and games are shown from the first time travel's perspective. So we dont really know what Lone pine marty remembers. Likewise in part II when they return to 1985, we dont know which timeline the 'other marty' is from whether it's the old timeline, good timeline, or biffhoric one.

    If you think about it Marty is really lucky that the second Marty's personality hasn't changed enough (even though Dave and Linda's has changed completely) so that he does exactly what the original Marty does originally.
  • edited May 2011
    I think the biggest question in the BTTF series is at the end of BTTF part 1, when its discovered that George and Lorraine are successful, we see Dave in a nice suit with an office job. WHY IS HE STILL LIVING AT HOME???? What kind of man with a nice business job still lives at home with his parents?
  • edited May 2011
    Well, we don't know for sure if Dave was still living at home. He may have just been visiting. Even so, I don't really see anything wrong with him still living at home. He may be not quite be able to afford his own place. Or else, he maybe just doesn't feel like leaving home, yet.
  • edited May 2011
    Its explained in Episode 1 that he has an "office job" which means he might make a decent living. Also Lorraine has gone back to her "old ways" and is having an affair with Dave.
  • edited May 2011
    jwalker30 wrote: »
    I think the biggest question in the BTTF series is at the end of BTTF part 1, when its discovered that George and Lorraine are successful, we see Dave in a nice suit with an office job. WHY IS HE STILL LIVING AT HOME???? What kind of man with a nice business job still lives at home with his parents?

    He might have a really bad office job that has a really low income so he can't afford his own place.
  • edited May 2011
    The Back to the Future movies had about three conflicting theories of time travel, but that didn't make them bad movies. Do yourself a favour and don't try to iron out the paradoxes in the movies or the games; the games are based off the movies, and if you accept one theory of time travel as being true then half the things in the movies don't make sense; if you accept another theory as being true, the other half don't make sense.


    For example, Marty in the first movie after changing history. He goes back to his house, finds out that his life is better. There is no other Marty in this timeline; just the Marty who time travelled. Yet, his family still knows him and such because he changed history.

    But, in the second movie, in 'Hell Valley', there is apparently a Marty native to that timeline in some other country or something, according to Biff. He says something like "I thought I sent you to school in ---". In that instance, there are two versions of Marty, which contradicts the first movie's time travel rules. In addition, in the second movie Old Biff returned to the original 2015 before fading out of existence, when he should have gone to the 2015 of 'Hell Valley'. Doc and Marty, for all intents and purposes, should have been stranded in that 2015 as a result of the DeLorean being in a parallel timeline.


    TL;DR version: Enjoy it as it is, don't try to reconcile and iron out the paradoxes because I can tell you right now, it won't work according to a universal time travel truth, whatever that truth may be.
  • edited May 2011
    Soeroah wrote: »
    The Back to the Future movies had about three conflicting theories of time travel, but that didn't make them bad movies. Do yourself a favour and don't try to iron out the paradoxes in the movies or the games; the games are based off the movies, and if you accept one theory of time travel as being true then half the things in the movies don't make sense; if you accept another theory as being true, the other half don't make sense.

    You are basically right, but...
    Soeroah wrote: »
    For example, Marty in the first movie after changing history. He goes back to his house, finds out that his life is better. There is no other Marty in this timeline; just the Marty who time travelled. Yet, his family still knows him and such because he changed history.

    Of course they know him... he has been born in the altered timeline as well. And we see him leave for an unknown time at the end of the first movie. So the Marty we know just replaces him.
    Soeroah wrote: »
    But, in the second movie, in 'Hell Valley', there is apparently a Marty native to that timeline in some other country or something, according to Biff. He says something like "I thought I sent you to school in ---". In that instance, there are two versions of Marty, which contradicts the first movie's time travel rules.

    The first movie never states that the same person can't exist twice in one time. In fact it clearly shows (at the end, two Martys co-existing) that it IS indeed possible.
    Soeroah wrote: »
    In addition, in the second movie Old Biff returned to the original 2015 before fading out of existence, when he should have gone to the 2015 of 'Hell Valley'. Doc and Marty, for all intents and purposes, should have been stranded in that 2015 as a result of the DeLorean being in a parallel timeline.

    Ok, here's where it gets a little fishy, but.. ;) Apparently the timeline changes AROUND Marty and Doc, because they are time travellers (like it changed around Jennifer when they left her in 1985A). So Biff is in fact returning to the future of the "Hell Valley" timeline (that's why he dies, because he has been shot by Lorraine sometime in the nineties). Marty and Doc just don't realize because HillDale probably doesn't change a lot.
  • edited May 2011
    Soeroah wrote: »
    For example, Marty in the first movie after changing history. He goes back to his house, finds out that his life is better. There is no other Marty in this timeline; just the Marty who time travelled. Yet, his family still knows him and such because he changed history.

    Actually there was another Marty. He was with Doc at the mall when they were being shot at by Libyans and then he went back in time.
  • edited May 2011
    A question about the BttF1 loop:
    Would lone-pine mall marty fade or not?

    He has a different picture of his family and got told a different story of how his parents met.

    In other words, lone pine mall marty"s timeline doesnt involve his parents meeting because of george getting hit by loraine's father's car.

    It is a loop because of the fact that you essentially see lone pine mall marty doing the same stuff twin pine mall marty did.
  • edited May 2011
    My theory is that LP Marty, ultimately, fuses with TP Marty - and he remembers his past from both timelines. It's more of a gradual process.
  • edited May 2011
    There's that word again... loop... why is there so much talk about loops in this forum? Is there something wrong with the way the movies are told?

    My theory about LP Marty is that he is embarking on his own adventure, that we simply know nothing of. We don't even know if Doc entered the same date into the time circuits. Even IF he is arriving at the same date in 1955 (and wouldn't that be catastrophic, because he'd arrive in the same time AND place as "our" Marty did?) he'll face a different scenario, as has been mentioned. He might not even meet his parents and not create a problem to begin with.. he may miss his appointment with the lightning strike... the Delorean might not come back to life at the right instant... anything's possible.
  • edited May 2011
    Were close to June. So we will find out more. But im starting to doubt if Doc ever comes back at all. He could just send another letter like he did in BTTF Part 2 (movie).
  • edited May 2011
    Cubbie wrote: »

    Of course they know him... he has been born in the altered timeline as well. And we see him leave for an unknown time at the end of the first movie. So the Marty we know just replaces him.

    Derp on my end, that makes sense.

    The first movie never states that the same person can't exist twice in one time. In fact it clearly shows (at the end, two Martys co-existing) that it IS indeed possible.

    See, the thing I don't really understand about this is that, as you say, two Martys can co-exist in one timeline. But in the second movie (which we will get to) Old Biff ceases to exist after returning to the future despite this theory that he could have co-existed with Alternate Old Biff according to the rules from BTTF 1?

    Ok, here's where it gets a little fishy, but.. ;) Apparently the timeline changes AROUND Marty and Doc, because they are time travellers (like it changed around Jennifer when they left her in 1985A). So Biff is in fact returning to the future of the "Hell Valley" timeline (that's why he dies, because he has been shot by Lorraine sometime in the nineties). Marty and Doc just don't realize because HillDale probably doesn't change a lot.


    I thought Biff was 'dying' because he changed history (he was fading away as he died), which is where my problem is. Biff became a time traveller when he used the DeLorean to go back in time, so why is he affected by the change in history when everyone else who time travels is immune to the changes?


    I dunno. I just usually see time travel working in a few ways. One, every time you 'change history' you create an alternate universe where history happened according to what you did. In that sense, Hell Valley would be in an alternate timeline to the original 1985. Since Marty and Doc came from 1985a to 2015a, then Biff changed events in 1955 to create 1985b, I would think that Marty and Doc would be in 2015a while the DeLorean would take Biff to 2015b. In that sense Marty and Doc should be stranded.

    Instead, Biff creates a tangent leading to 1985b, but somehow goes into the future where he winds up in 2015a. They should be on separate tracks, but like how Doc explained it on the blackboard.

    Edit: Tried to do an ascii diagram. I failed :p
  • edited May 2011
    It's at that point where I just kind of turn my brain off. It's way, way, way too complicated, and the rules set in place don't apply in all places of the trilogy. They set out to tell a fun story, and they did.

    /Johnnyraincloud.
  • edited May 2011
    Soeroah wrote: »
    I thought Biff was 'dying' because he changed history (he was fading away as he died), which is where my problem is. Biff became a time traveller when he used the DeLorean to go back in time, so why is he affected by the change in history when everyone else who time travels is immune to the changes?

    Because he is returning to a time in which he is dead (not stated in the movie, but then again the whole "old Biff dying" thing is not in the movie as well), he is fading from existence the moment he re-enters the normal timestream.
    Since Marty and Doc came from 1985a to 2015a, then Biff changed events in 1955 to create 1985b, I would think that Marty and Doc would be in 2015a while the DeLorean would take Biff to 2015b. In that sense Marty and Doc should be stranded.

    No, because the timeline transfers around them, basically shifting them from 2015a to 2015b, because of the changes in 1955. It's what happens to Marty after Doc gets sent to 1885. The actions of Doc in 1885 change the timeline around Marty. Otherwise there would be no Delorean in the Delgado mine and no letter from Doc.

    But hey... I'm not trying to say that it all makes perfect sense. ;) As you said yourself, the rules aren't always consistent and things like the ripple effect and the changing photos/newspapers don't make explaining any easier. ;)
  • edited May 2011
    Cubbie wrote: »

    But hey... I'm not trying to say that it all makes perfect sense. ;) As you said yourself, the rules aren't always consistent and things like the ripple effect and the changing photos/newspapers don't make explaining any easier. ;)


    Aye. Next up; Jennifer in First Citizen Brown; if she was a time traveller, why has her personal history changed now :p


    I, to, play for fun. Incidently, I am loving these games.
  • edited May 2011
    Soeroah wrote: »
    Aye. Next up; Jennifer in First Citizen Brown; if she was a time traveller, why has her personal history changed now :p

    That's an easy one for a change. She wasn't travelling with Marty and Doc when the changes in 1931 created the FCB timeline. Simple as that. :)
    Soeroah wrote: »
    I, to, play for fun. Incidently, I am loving these games.

    Same here.
  • edited May 2011
    Suspend your disbelief. LOL. Serious.
  • edited May 2011
    Cubbie wrote: »
    That's an easy one for a change. She wasn't travelling with Marty and Doc when the changes in 1931 created the FCB timeline. Simple as that. :)



    But Marty and Doc weren't travelling with Old Biff when he went back and created Hell Valley, and they (theoretically) shifted to the alternate 2015, as was mentioned several posts ago! XP
  • edited May 2011
    Soeroah wrote: »
    But Marty and Doc weren't travelling with Old Biff when he went back and created Hell Valley, and they (theoretically) shifted to the alternate 2015, as was mentioned several posts ago! XP

    Right, they were out of their own time though and thus immune to the changes, at least until the ripple effect would have caught up to them, however long that would have taken.. ;)
    Jennifer was where she belonged so she changed along with the timestream.
  • edited May 2011
    This is not on-topic with BTTF but on-topic with time paradoxes. Now, I am not an expert on physics or paradox theories. Most people could probably argue quite conclusively that I possess a "below-average" IQ. But this is something I was thinking deeply about the other day instead of paying attention to traffic on the freeway:

    Since I am a man with questionable intellect and I am too lazy to read up on Wikipedia, I will go with the next best information source: hearsay. I heard once that if you could take off into space, and you were going fast enough, you could come back and land on Earth 20 mins/1 hour/1 day/whatever time frame you want before you took off. Now if physicists ever devised a way to test this theory, let's say they wanted to test for 20 mins, and they chose me to be the lucky candidate (if for no other reason, they probably think that if something goes wrong, freeway travel would be safer) I would wait for 20 mins before launch to see if I showed up and said, "It's all good, bro, it was a successful trip and nothing bad happened." If my other self never shows up, I would tell the physicists, "Go <expletive deleted> yourselves, I'm not going up in that thing! I never came back! That probably means that I died out there in space!", and I wouldn't go through with it. For the past couple of days, I've tried to think myself an answer for the following question: Did my other self never show up because something bad did indeed happen in space and I never made it back, or did I never show up because I didn't go through with it? Then my brain starts to hurt and I go watch more TV. Your thoughts?
  • edited May 2011
    Cubbie wrote: »
    Right, they were out of their own time though and thus immune to the changes, at least until the ripple effect would have caught up to them, however long that would have taken.. ;)
    Jennifer was where she belonged so she changed along with the timestream.



    Man, the BTTF Universe must have one hell of a record keeper :p
  • edited May 2011
    Soeroah wrote: »
    Man, the BTTF Universe must have one hell of a record keeper :p

    Frankly? I doubt it. ;)
    bobscratch wrote: »
    Did my other self never show up because something bad did indeed happen in space and I never made it back, or did I never show up because I didn't go through with it?

    There's no conclusive answer to that, as long as we don't know how time travel works in our universe. If it works the way it does in BttF then you would NOT show up before the trip, even if you take off as planned. Instead you would then arrive in an alternate timeline, telling your alternate you "all's well" and see him take off. (compare ending of first movie). Or YOU would be the alternate self already, but that would mean YOUR trip could still go wrong, even if your previous-timeline-self survived to talk to you.
    If it works the other way (i.e. no changes to the timeline are possible) then you WOULD show up IF the trip was successful and then you WOULD HAVE TO take off, no way around it, because the result of your flight (you arriving 20 minutes before) has already happened.

    Long story short: Even if you don't show up to reassure you, it's not really helping you draw any conclusions. ;)

    My head hurts...
    Anyway, as long as you pay attention on the freeway... everything will be fine!
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