Alternate Griff paradox
edited April 2012 in Back to the Future
Assuming Griff's father was born after 1973 (the year Biff married Lorraine in the alternate timeline) Griff wouldn't exist in 2015A, meaning Doc wouldn't have to take Marty and Jennifer to 2015 to sort out their kids, meaning old Biff never got his hands on the Almanac or Delorean so never gave it to his younger self, meaning 1985A wouldn't exist.:):):):):)
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But some other smarter and more intellectual guys like Martin Mcfly or Michael J. Fox is Canadian will prove you wrong somehow. I don't know how but they will.
How can he not exist in the future? He didn't die or something.
But anyhow generally the McFly's are the same age as their tannen counterparts; Biff is a year older than George, Marty Jr. and Griff are roughly the same age. Marty is born in 1967 or 1968 so it's very plausible Griffs parent was already born/conceived by 1973.
It doesn't seem like events of the future are heavily dependent on time travel. By that logic, any time travel initiated with the intent on changing the timeline (Marty going to the future to save his son, Biff going back to 1955 to make himself rich, Doc and Marty going back to 1955 to restore the timeline, Marty going to 1885 to save Doc) should create a paradox if successful. Presumably in the alternate timeline Griff is financially stable enough that he does not need to stage a robbery involving Marty Jr. (hell if they still own the police, they could easily be corrupt enough to get away with a robbery if they wanted to). Likewise if biff is still alive in 2015 (and since the fading scene is deleted, its not a part of the film), he likely wouldn't need to time travel.
You could also use the theory that changes to the timeline allows a person to travel not only across the fourth dimension (time) but the fifth dimension (timelines).
So for instance the scene that we see of Biff meeting his younger self takes place in the biffhoric timeline but the old biff would come from the previous timeline. We have no idea how the events of 2015 play out under any other timelines besides the original one of Marty Jr. going to jail. I'd assume the inter-dimension theory has to take place because 'old doc' is still in FCB's pic from 1931 and those 2015 events still have to take place for the current events to transpire (this is how the lightning bolt duplicated the deloreans in 1955).
I wonder why old Biff even returns the Delorean to 2015 after he hands off the Alamanac in the first place. The events that got Old Biff the Dolorean won't happen anyways as 141.62227kmph pointed out.
1. Why is she suddenly referring to him as Marty?
2. Wouldn't Lorraine and George have named Dave Marty instead? After all, Dave was their first born son, and if they were going to name their kids after Marty they would've named their first son Marty, not Dave.
And i'm timing how long it takes for Michael J. Fox is Canadian to disprove my theory.
And sorry about the long username, its 88 miles per hour converted into kilometres per hour. Because we Australians measure in kilometres, not miles.
1. Marty did tell her from the getgo to call him Marty, she kept calling him Calvin. Notice she does start calling him marty when they are parked in the car and this is what George calls him.
2. There's any number of theories, one being that Dave was named after somebody or they just liked that name better
I was going to compliment your user name btw. the USA is one of the only countries which does not use the metric system. Where I'm from we use KMs so i got it
EDIT: Nevermind. I had this lovely response written out for you but had an errand to do so I saved it to post later. I should have known that MJFIC would be all over this question like a donkey on a waffle.
Surprisingly, I got the joke; Canada also uses the metric system.
Yes we do! Miles to kilometres isn't actually that tough; it's 1:1.6 or 0.6:1. So 100 kilometres is 60 miles.
Not necissarily; remember the 1955 events from part I still happen as we eventually see. So Doc knows he builds a time machine which Marty uses on October 26th 1985. He may not realize it's an alternate timeline but he may do what he has to in order to ensure this happens. I'd imagine he follows the McFly's pretty close in all timelines after the first one.
I think BTTF2 established that the BTTF series uses a version of the 'many worlds' theory of time travel, wherein, every time jump to the past creates an alternate timeline. The key difference from the 'many worlds' theory is that the original timeline is 'overwritten' and any elements from the original timeline (photographs, newspapers etc.) will either be altered to fit the new timeline, or erased...and time traveler's too are likely to be erased if they do not fit into the new timeline. So, Old Biff, since he logically could not exist in 2015-A (according to Bob Gale, seeing as the alternate Biff was killed in 1996), he was erased from existence as soon as he returned to the future. But this did not undo his arrival in 1955 and his actions there, since those actions spawned the new timeline (as we see later in the film).
Basically, in BTTF, there is no such thing as a paradox, since the time traveler creates an alternate timeline when he changes the past. At most, the time traveler will be erased from existence, but the universe doesn't collapse.
Well, Old Biff only disappears after he gives the almanac to Young Biff so I suppose it's supposed to indicate that within that timeline, Old Biff doesn't live as long as he does in the new one.
Old Timeline (2015 in BTTF2):
-Biff did not recieve the almanac in 1955.
-Grows up to be the manservent of George McFly.
-Marries at some point and has a child.
-That child then has a son named Griff
-Dies at x years old (Let's say 78.)
New Timeline (1985A timeline):
-Young Biff receives the almanac which results in making him extremely rich.
-He marries Lorraine.
-He lives to be y years old and dies. (y<78)
So if I'm understanding you correctly, Old Biff merges into New Biff's timeline but Old Biff dies since his older self in the new timeline does not live that long.
Alternatively, I may be misunderstanding you and you're wondering:
How did Old Biff travel back to the future (2015) after giving his younger self the almanac?
According to Doc's logic, after changing something in the past and travelling to the future, you go to THAT timeline's future (as evidenced in the end of the first movie when the McFly family has changed accordingly). In theory, after Old Biff gave the almanac to Young Biff, he should have travelled to 1985A's future not back to 2015.
On that note, I suppose you could attribute it to the timelines catching up.
I think I covered everything; MJFIC can fill in the holes.
Well, first of all, there is no question of Old Biff dying in the Lone Pine timeline...for all intents and purposes, the Lone Pine timeline is erased the moment Old Biff goes back in time...there is no future for the 'normal' 2015 in which Old Biff is able to die.
As for Old Biff's erasure...there are different ways to interpret it. I suppose one way of looking at it is that the 'ripple effect' serves as a 'filter' of sorts for the space-time continuum, erasing individuals 'foreign' to the current timeline...and thus Old Biff being erased was owing to the timeline erasing someone foreign to it. On the other hand, one can look at is as Old Biff being incorporated into the Hell Valley timeline (i.e. merging with his 2015-A counterpart and 'becoming' him)...except that since his 2015-A counterpart is dead, he accordingly ceases to exist as well.
Incidentially, according to Bob Gale, Biff DID return to 2015-A and not the 'normal' Lone Pine 2015...the timeline transformed around Marty, Doc and Jennifer because they did not belong to 2015 anyway and were thus immune to the ripple effect.
In the first draft of the script, the houses starts changing in front of their eyes in 2015 much like we see happen in episode 5 of the game.
Yeah, you're right.
Of course, the first draft of the script seems to suggest that Biff DID return to the normal 2015, and the ripple effect was just 'catching up' with 2015 and transforming it as Marty and Doc were leaving. Though what Bob Gale ultimately suggested was that it WAS already 2015-A when Old Biff returned...it just so happen that Hilldale didn't look a lot different in this timeline.
what would have happened if he was successful and managed to create a new richer biff? he would still be a stranger to that world and never be rich himself unless he met himself and managed to share the wealth, he can't kill his alternate cause that would have erased him, i mean what was the point of him changing the past, he could have easily been killed by his alternate just not the other way round
I honestly don't think Biff really thought it through. He thought its as simply as going back in time, giving himself the book and coming back a rich man. He had a layman's understanding of time travel (if even that)!
that makes sense, maybe he thought he would just shift into his counterpart or his counterpart would disappear and he would then take over his life and be rich, he never realized alternates are created by changing your own past. i mean if 1985 marty from the lone pine mall timeline never went back in time there would be 2 marty's, marty was lucky his alternate self did the same actions as him, makes no sense that his alternate would have to go back in time so he could be there in the first place as its not him anymore, its a different marty
My personal theory is that if you create a new timeline which has an alternate version of yourself, then if the alternate version does NOT make a certain time jump back in the past, you will get erased.
It doesn't matter how much the timeline has changed, as long as the Marty of that timeline goes back in time on October 26th 1985, 'our' Marty will continue to exist, and might possibly 'merge' with the Marty of the new timeline. If the other Marty DOES NOT time travel, then 'our' Marty should logically be erased eventually...