Which Doc? *Chapter 5 Spoilers*
I've just arrived to the point Doc comes back because he read the newspaper about the Key to the City, but then Hill Valley disappears.
Is this Doc the one after the 3 movies? I do remember watching in the movies that the Doc would later obtain the Key to the City, but considering the date of this newspaper...
Is this Doc the one after the 3 movies? I do remember watching in the movies that the Doc would later obtain the Key to the City, but considering the date of this newspaper...
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He still went to 1931, he was researching Sylvia McFly for the book he gave Marty. So he still went through the events of Episodes 1 & 2.
The new timeline:
Doc and his family now live in 1986. There was no estate sale. As for whether or not he experiecend episode 1 and 2, I can't give you a solid answer. Doc asked Marty "What are you doing in 1931?", but the problem is noone would know who Marty was in 1931 if the events of episode 1 and 2 never happened, in fact, he never would have gone back there and the changes to the timeline would never have occured. So no, I can't tell you that. I can say he probably didn't and there's a hole in the story. Still great though, it's hard to avoid when you're talking about time travel.
Odd, never thought I'd type "What are you doing in 1931?"
It's time travel in a sci-fi comedy. I think we're thinking about it too hard.:D
Yes, Doc has indeed experienced Episode 1 and 2. But now only from Young Emmett's persepective.
Spoilers:
However, now that Marty has made contact with young Emmett, young Emmett (and thus young Doc) also experiences the events of Episodes 1 and 2. But these events end up wrecking Marty's timeline up, as shown in Episodes 3 and 4.
During the first part of Episode 5, Marty sets Emmett back on the path of science and repairs Emmett's relationship with his judge father. At that point everything else up through the BTTF movies happens as we know it.
BUT - instead of traveling full-time via train time-machine, Doc's newly good relationship with his father now gives him a reason to spend part-time in Marty's present 1986 - keeping the estate and running the foundation/scholarship in the memory of Doc's father.
So Doc's timeline has changed permanently from the movies. But this time, the reason he travels back to 1931 is to bring Marty back to the present. He doesn't need to research Sylvia anymore because thanks to Marty he's witnessed the events of 1931 with Arthur and Trixie, so he never makes the original first trip to 1931.
So - no matter what, Doc travels back in time to 1931. And no matter what, Doc experiences the events of Episode 1 and 2.
BUT - there is a problem. Doc has brought Marty back to 1986, a 1986 where Marty never has to rescue Doc from 1931. So now there is a Marty from the new 1986 chilling in this timeline on his "trip", while the Marty we got to play in this game is also brought to this timeline - TWO MARTYS!
That could explain all the Martys at the end.
Also, to those complaining about not being in Hill Valley's future in Episode 5 - technically 1986 IS the future compared to the movies.
Also, if they do decide to take the multiple-Martys joke at the end of Episode 5 and finish a BTTF game trilogy, they could very cleverly make an alternate 2015 that matches our present day exactly, instead of the gizmo-filled 2015 from BTTF2. Just saying.
This, I try not to make sense of all this timeline shinagins since like one of the other posters said, it'd make your head explode.
the same timeline in episodes 1 and 2 but a different one in 3 until that point in 5.
It seems that we essentially have Docs from 3 different timelines roaming around at different points in 1931...
The first Doc to arrive in 1931 is the Lone Pine/Eastwood timeline Doc we've been following in the movies...this Doc, after BTTF3, either lived in the Old West, or was travelling through time all the time (pun intended)...at some point, he picks up the duplicated Delorean in 2025, and travels back to 1931, to research Marty's family tree, assuming the identity of Carl Sagan. He ends up being arrested and accused of being the speakeasy arsonist. He's the Doc we follow in Episodes 1 and 2...and he eventually gets erased from existence owing to the younger Emmett Brown falling in love with Edna, drastically changing the future...as soon as he returns to 1986.
The second Doc to arrive in 1931 is the Doc from the First Citizen Brown timeline...he's the Doc we follow in Episodes 3, 4 and the early part of 5; he never invented a time machine, was married to Edna and nearly brainwashed by her, but repaired the time machine of his counterpart (the first Doc) and travelled back in time with Marty, assuming the Carl Sagan identity of the previous Doc. He tries to sabotage Emmett's experiment but failed. The younger Edna double-crosses him and steals his Delorean (actually the Delorean of the erased first Doc). Owing to Edna's influence being removed from the younger Emmett's life, his timeline is now completely erased, and thus, he himself is erased from existence (though he was seriously injured anyway from being run over).
The third Doc to arrive in 1931 is the Doc we follow through the latter half of Episode 5, and his history is a little less clear. He remembers meeting Marty back in 1931, and is given a newspaper article about the future by Marty, which he keeps with him till 1986...apparently, after the events of BTTF3, he lives in 1986 Hill Valley, and owing to his far better relationship with his father, he runs a foundation in the latter's name. This Doc apparently travels back to 1931 simply because he remembers Marty being there. He is also in possession of a Delorean, albeit one that is completely distinct from the Delorean used by Lone Pine/Eastwood Doc and FCB Doc...the origins of his Delorean are unclear. Yet, in the end, he claims he did travel to 1931 to research Marty's family tree, which is something the Lone Pine/Eastwood Doc did...he apparently, doesn't remember being jailed or accused of being the speakeasy arsonist.
I believe it's the same Doc as in Episodes 1 and 2, but somewhat different.
The movies go as planned, however, instead of going back to 1885 at the end (or wherever he decides to go), he and Clara stay and make their part time residence.
At some point, Doc still goes back to 1931 to get the info on Marty's grandma, Trixie/Sylvia, and gets arrested due to the speakeasy fire. We don't know exactly when he goes back though. The DeLorean goes to retrieve Marty in 1986, and Marty goes back to 1931 to rescue Doc. After going back to the future, and seeing the "Tannen Crime Family" timeline, they return to 1931 as in the old timeline. They get Kid Tannen arrested, and return to May 15, 1986. This time, Doc doesn't fade out, and is scheduled to receive the Key to the City later in the day.
At some point when Doc is not with Marty in 1986, Marty most likely fades from existence since he is currently in 1931, trying to break up Emmett and Edna.
Doc in 1986 doesn't realize this until he receives the Key to the City and looks at the newspaper snippet he received in 1931, realizes it's the same Marty from 1986, and returns to 1931 to rescue him.
Now I know lots of people will say, "But wait! How could Doc come from 1986 if Hill Valley was destroyed in a fire in 1876?"
It's because Edna's trip to 1876 doesn't occur until moments after Doc arrives back in 1931.
Therefore in summary, it's the same Doc from Episodes 1 and 2, just somewhat altered lifestyle, having made amends with his father at 17.
I know, it sounds confusing. It's a wonder the space-time hasn't already been destroyed!
I pretty much agree here. IMO, the net effect of Emmet's life is the same, except for the Foundation in the new timeline. Marty, once again through changing things, brings about a better Hill Valley once his time travel has completed and resolved all paradoxes.
When it comes to the new timeline, the important part in both of the ones we've seen is not the fact that young Emmet saw Frankenstein, but that he saw the raw power of lightning, mentally analyzed what it was, then remembered some of the properties of static electricity.
The idea I'm talking about comes from the GURPS: Time Travel book's example on the assassination of Lincoln. Obviously, the time travelers who wanted to prevent Lincoln's assassination failed, as it's the history we're all familiar with. BUT, what about the team that went back to convince Lincoln to fake his death?
In the originals Twin-Pine to Eastwood timelines, the 1931 Speakeasy fire was a mistery in Hill Valley. This incident doesn't have anything to do with the McFly family.
Ep1-Doc (Bad relation with his father, meaning no Erhardt Brown Foundation and no reason to stay), wanting to give a present to Marty for his upcoming graduation, goes back to 1931 to research for Marty's grandmother, but while he's already there, sidetrack to find the answer to the Fire mistery, which he later got blamed for. His DeLorean goes back to Marty in 1986.
Ep5-Doc (Better relation with his father, meaning Erhardt Brown Foundation, meaning reasons to come back ocassionally) went back to 1931 to do the research on Marty's grandma just like Ep1-Doc, but didn't get sidetracked by the speakeasy fire because, in his timeline, there was no mistery, as he knew that Edna Strickland did it, because he heard her confession from Marty's recording. His DeLorean doesn't go back to Marty in 1986.
The DeLorean Marty used throughout the Game is the equivalent to Doc's tombstone in 1955 in BTTF3.
- As Doc didn't die in 1885, there's no tombstone.
- As Doc didn't get arrested in 1931, there's no alternate DeLorean.
Yeah, that does make a bit of sense. However, are you then suggesting there would be two Doc's simultaneously at some point in June 1931...Ep 1 Doc who's in jail and Ep 5 Doc who isn't?
Not that there's anything particular wrong with that, but I'm a bit confused.
As for the two Delorean's I've come up with a better explanation for that...a lot of people assume its the exact same Delorean, albeit which has followed 'two different paths' after Ep 2, and that Edna's Delorean fades from existence, because the fate of the other one is the car's 'true' destiny.
However, this is an alternative explanation.
Even before the FCB timeline is created, the first Delorean is malfunctioning. The time circuits are broken right at the start. I think this Delorean is inherently unstable as its a temporal duplicate of the original, which is why it keeps acting up throughout the game. In the original timeline, Doc picks it up in 2015 because he time travelled there using his train, and then uses it to travel to 1931.
However, in the revised timeline, Doc was living in 1986 and wasn't time travelling as much as he did in the previous timelines. So I think its likely that, rather than picking up an unstable temporal duplicate in 2025, he simply built a new time machine while in 1986 (and of course got it upgraded in the future). Which is why his Delorean is more stable and works better.
Now as for Edna's Delorean fading...well, its inherently unstable, being a duplicate, and as such the stunt Doc pulls off in Ep 5 (forcibly bringing it to 1931) made it so unstable that it erased.
Or was I dreaming?
Marty does mention 1885, but Doc never says "We were?"
There is no question that Doc would remember the 1885 trip...otherwise there is NO WAY he would be married to Clara.
Well, that's what I mean, (I thought) he said something that he doesn't remember (something about 1885) and the immediately he mentioned Clara and the kids, that's why it confused the heck outta me. I can't remember what exactly he was talking about.
Off to play it again!!! xD
This is what the new Doc's (Ep 5 version's) timeline would be like from his POV-
On June 13th 1931, Emmett Brown meets 'Michael Corleone', who encourages him to build a rocket drill and then borrows it. Corleone then disappears, leaving behind his dog, 'Einstien', whom Emmett uses in his experiments for the next 2 months.
On August 25th, Emmett meets up with Corleone again, and helps capture Kid Tannen. He and Edna Strickland, consequently fall in love.
In October (don't remember the date), Edna and Emmett have been dating for two months and Emmett is about to propose to her, and participate in the Expo. Corleone sabotages his and Edna's relationship and reveals that his name is Marty. Emmett meets an old man named 'Carl Sagan' who abducts and imprisons him, until Marty frees him. After patching up things with his father, Emmett's Expo is successful and he dedicates his life to science. Marty gives him a newspaper cutting, making him promise that he won't see it till he gets the Key to the City. Emmett then goes back into the Expo Hall and never sees Marty again in the near future (though he might have heard that his ex-girlfriend was arrested that night).
Time passes normally for Emmett Brown over the next 24 years. His father dies and he inherits the estate and possibly starts the Foundation. He continues his scientific pursuits. Then on November 5th 1955, he falls off his toilet and envisions the flux capacitor. That night, he meets Marty, who claims to be from the future. Maybe he finds this Marty familiar and may recognise him as looking similar to his friend from 1931 (perhaps, knowing Marty's a time traveller, he may even put two and two together, but for the sake of the space-time continuum, let's forget that for now). He sees the Delorean and realises he's going to successfully invent the time machine. He helps Marty get back to 1985 on November 12th.
Immediately after, he meets Marty again, who tells him that his future self is trapped in 1885. He uncovers the Delorean from the Delgado Mine. For some reason, Marty decides to go back and rescue Doc from 1885 (maybe its cuz he finds a picture in the library showing both him and Doc by the Clock Tower in 1885)...Marty then goes back to 1885. Emmett leaves the Drive-in theatre, preparing to wait out three decades before he can talk to Marty about what happened.
Over the next thirty years, Doc develops the time machine. In 1962, the Brown Mansion burns down (though its possible he doesn't get broke in this timeline) and he moves into the garage. In the 1980's he befriends Marty McFly, knowing he's the same kid from 1955 (but he probably doesn't realise its his friend from 1931). At some point, he reads the letter Marty gave him in 1955 and learns about his impending death on the night of the first temporal experiment.
On October 26th 1985, at Lone Pine Mall, the Libyan terrorists shoot Doc, but he was wearing a bulletproof vest. Marty returns from 1955 and Doc takes the Delorean into the future. In 2015, he gets the rejunevation therapy, and learns about the future of the McFly family. He brings Marty and Jen to 2015 to help their kids. Later, he travels to 1985-A and then, again with Marty, to November 12th 1955. After Marty burns the Almanac, Doc is struck by lightining and sent back to 1885.
He lives in 1885 for eight months. Then, in September, Marty comes back to rescue him and tells him about his impending death at Bufford's hands (Marty comes from the timeline where he saw the tombstone). Doc saves Clara from falling into Shonash Ravine and they fall in love. Later, Marty gets sent back to 1985, and Doc is left trapped in the past with Clara.
Clara and Doc get married and over the next ten years, have two kids, Jules and Verne. In 1895, Doc completes his new train time machine, and he and Clara, and the kids, visit Marty and Jennifer in 1985. Now that he has the means to return to his era, and knowing the danger his family poses to the continuum, and also largely because he wishes to manage the foundation he built in memory of his father, he and his family move back to 1985 and build a new house on his property next to the garage.
Doc lives in the present for about a year, and possibly garners a lot of respect, since he becomes eligible to receive the Key to the City. During this time, he also builds a new Delorean time machine (or possibly takes a trip to 2025 in the train, and retrieves the temporal duplicate of the original). At some point before May 1986, he travels through time to write a history of the McFly family.
On May 14th 1986, Doc and the family are attending the ceremony at City Hall. Marty in the meantime, from Doc's POV has disappeared mysteriously. The ceremony triggers a 55 year old memory of receiving a newspaper cutting from his old friend Marty. He realises that the 'Marty' in 1931 is in fact his own friend from the present, and that Marty is trapped in the past. He remembers the time he last saw Marty in 1931, and uses the Delorean to travel back there...
...which brings us up to his entry in Episode 5.
Doc wasn't living in 1986 all the time. He even says that it's a part-time residence, indicating that time travel is indeed a big part of his life still. I believe that, like in the original timeline, he learned of the duplicate DeLorean's existence on a trip to 2025, recovered it, repaired it, made modifications to it "over the years" before his trip to 1931. It's unclear as to whether new Doc was in jail in '31, but it's possible he wasn't. Add to that the DeLorean that Marty had been using(and Edna stole) was suffering from a major case of being smashed into a billboard, being repaired in a rush-job style fashion, and the time circuits weren't up to snuff. And I think being chronometrically linked with what is essentially the exact same vehicle via Doc's chronometric analyzer and flux synch overrides was what began to temporally decompose "Edna's" DeLorean.
/end nerdisms.
I say again, we're examining this too closely. :P
I agree with all this except for the last part regarding Marty.
As someone else explained (which made everything click for me), Doc still went back in time in order to do research on Martys grandmother. However, because the case of the Speakeasy Fire is no longer a mystery, he never goes on his stake out and gets arrested, causing the DeLorian to go to 1986 so Marty can go back and rescue him. So, because Marty never needed to go back in time, the 1986 we see at the end of Ep5 is a new alternate 1986, which means theres another Marty somewhere who never went back in time.
The Doc would have gone back to 1986 after trying to find out about Martys grandmother, and then after receiving the key to the city, opened the newspaper clipping, realised/remembered his friend from 1931 was Marty and decided to go back to the last time he remembered seeing him so he could see for himself.
Well, I think either the Marty of the 'new' 1986 simply disappears, or he finds another reason to go back to 1931...there won't be another Marty in 1986 at the end, the same way there wasn't one at the end of BTTF3 (i.e. one who had no reason to go back to 1885, and therefore returned straight to 1985).
I think its entirely possible the Delorean (the one belonging to the 'original' Doc) DOES return to May 14th 1986 and the new Marty does use it to go back to 1931 and thereby 'become' the Marty we follow in the game (much like LP Marty becomes TP Marty). Remember, though the original Doc who was imprisoned in Ep 1 was erased at the end of Ep 2, his former existence in 1931 was not erased and neither was his Delorean (until the very end of the game)...people still remember Carl Sagan the suspected speakeasy arsonist after all.
So I think, in the span of a few months in 1931 in the final timeline, three Doc's from different futures appeared at different points of time-first the original Lone Pine/Eastwood Doc who is suspected to be the speakeasy arsonist; the the FCB Doc; and finally the new timeline Doc in Ep 5. One gets erased and replaced by another one, but that doesn't mean the actions of the previous version in the past were erased as well.
Well no, because the world we see at the end of BTTF3 is still a world in which Marty went back in time. He still would have gone back to 1955, and from there he still would have gone back to 1885 before returning to 1955. Im not sure where your thinking of him never needing to go back to 1885 comes from; nothing was changed that would have stopped Doc going back and getting stuck. Even if something had been changed and Marty never needed to go back, he went back there from 1955, so at that point there still wasnt a Marty in 1985 because he was in the past, so when he returns to 1985 from 1885, hes returning to a world in which Marty still went back in time anyway.
In the game, hes returning to an alternate world in which the Doc never needed to be rescued, and therefore the DeLorean never came for him, and so he never needed to go back in time. This means there must be another Marty somewhere, the same as when he goes to the alternate 1985 in BTTF2, theres another Marty whod been shipped off to a boarding school by Biff, and in the alternate 1986 in the game, theres another Marty whos a nerdy square whos off at some Mathemagic club thing.
I assume you're not familiar with the 'Tombstone paradox' of BTTF3.
Basically, in BTTF3, Marty is prepared to return to 1985 after the Delorean is uncovered in the Delgado Mine...until he finds Doc's tombstone in Boot Hill Cemetary whereupon he decides to return to 1885 to rescue him. However, when Marty goes back to 1885 and saves Doc's life and destroys the tombstone, the tombstone wouldn't have been there for him to find in 1955, destroying his motivation to go back and prevent Doc's death...an obvious paradox.
Now, as per your logic, when Marty returns to 1985 at the end of BTTF3, he is returning to an 'alternate world' where Doc's tombstone was never in the cemetary and hence his younger self from the start of BTTF3 simply returned to 1985 rather than going back to 1885...but we know that isn't the case. So the only answer is that in the new timeline, Marty still had a reason to go back to 1885 to rescue Doc (I think one reason good be his finding the photograph of him and Doc in the library, and thus realising he was meant to go back).
As I remember explaining on another thread, I believe its likely that this is what happened in the final timeline-Original Doc appears in 1931 and is arrested as the speakeasy arsonist (remember, from 1931's POV the future isn't written, so he comes from one possible future timeline). His Delorean is sent back to 1986. Now, 1986 happens to be the 1986 of the new timeline, where a different version of Doc is living in the present with Clara. Doc however, would be at the ceremony where he receives the key to the city...so its possible that Marty, who was hanging around at Doc's garage sale, sees the Delorean of the other Doc trapped in the past appear. Knowing that some version of Doc is trapped in the past, he decides to investigate, and with the help of Einstien and the shoe, tracks down Edna, who's obviously a lot more willing to help than in the old timeline. He finds the old newspaper, which will have something about the speakeasy arsonist Carl Sagan escaping (or whatever it finally showed)...anyways, Marty will have a date to go back to, and so he travels back in time to June 13th 1931, and is 'replaced' by the Marty of the old timeline.
However the real confusion arises with regards to Doc's memory of the original 1931 trips in the first 2 episodes. When he first meets Marty in episode 5, he seems surprised to find Marty in 1931 and doesn't appear to remember anything about being arrested as the speakeasy arsonist or the events of the first 2 episodes. In the end, he claims he travelled to 1931 to discover the truth about Marty's grandmother. So it gets confusing...were there TWO Doc's in the final timeline roaming about 1931...with one getting caught and arrested and the other making it back to the future?
I think the confusion arises from the fact that Doc's is the only case wherein a time traveller fades from existence, and is later BROUGHT BACK...there's been no precedent for what an 'un-erased' person would remember. For instance, Old Biff is erased when he returns to 2015 because of the new timeline he's created where he's dead...later, when Marty burns the Almanac and restores the timeline, we really don't know what happened to Old Biff and how much he remembered. Did Old Biff fade 'back' into existence in 2015, and remember everything about giving himself the Almanac? Or was the time travelling Old Biff forever erased, and in the new timeline was a NEW Old Biff who never time travelled but remembers receiving the Almanac as Young Biff and having it stolen by Calvin Klien (the latter is a likely possibility with the final Eastwood timeline, wherein Marty doesn't race Needles and totally changes the future; but I'm talking about the repaired Lone Pine timeline after Marty burns the Almanac and BEFORE Marty chooses not to race Needles).
I don't see BTTF3 tombstone as a paradox at all. The thing is, it's clear that as a time traveller, you get to see, experience and remember events that may not have happened.
Case in point, after the events of BTTF1, as far as the entire world is concern, the person Marty's grandfather ran over with his car was Calvin Klein and not George McFly. The only two people who knows the truth and knows there are two version of events are Marty and Doc Brown. The change in event doesn't alter the memories of the time travellers.
As far as I'm concern, the only way to alter the memory of a time traveller is by doing something that threaten his own very existence in the first place, ie. if Marty never managed to get his parents together hence no memory would have been created at all in which case, a REAL paradox would have occured because Marty would have never existed and "Calvin Klein" wouldn't have been ran over....time collapses, universe ceases to exist
Anyway, so as far as the BTTF3 tombstone is concern, Marty would still remember there was a tombstone of Doc Brown and it was the reason why he went back to the old west but if he tried to explain this to anyone else, beside Doc Brown, that he saw a tombstone of the Doc, they would all think he was crazy because it never existed just like they would if he tries to tell them that Biff and his mum got married and he is a millionaire due to never losing a bet.
In fact, a lot of people in 1985 after the events of the movies, would probably find Marty sightly odd. The fact that his parents are more far more successful, it would have meant he would have made different connection with people as he was growing up.
Chances are, because his family are doing better, he would probably have made friends with parents who are more well off too. Heck, he could have even went to a different High School altogether, maybe even a private one. When he turned up in school, strangers could tell him about things that he wouldn't have a clue about.
Actually even Doc Brown would not remember the old timeline where Biff is Georges boss as doc wasn't the time traveler yet.
I agree that this so called tombstomb paradox isn't any more of a paradox than pretty much EVERY time travel we see in part II aside from Doc Marty, Jennifer, and Einstein going back to 1985 from 2015
-Doc bringing Marty to 2015 to help his son avoid jail.
-Biff going back to 1955 to get rich
-Doc and Marty going back to 1955 to recover the almanac
-doc getting struck by lightning in 1955 (still wouldn't have happened if they didnt go back to 1955 in the first place).
According to the trilogy the only way, human memory isn't affected by time travel (as it's very obvious in part III Doc has no memory of his second visit from marty in 1955). Now the game takes it to many extra extremes including timelines shown in episodes 3-5 when Doc never even invents time travel. And remember doc doesn't know what happens if there is a paradox he just attempts to avoid them;
remember in episode 1 he briefly talks about it claiming he didnt want marty interfering with the younger emmett to heavily to avoid changing his future (of course this goes down the toilet in the next episode!)
I think as far as the movie/game lore is concern, just because the time traveller has done something that could threaten his very own existence, he is given a grace period before time catches up with him. The amount of time doesn't seem to be set.
For example, Marty from BTTF1 was given days to correct his timeline and get his parents back together whereas old Biff from BTTF2 disappeared almost right away upon he returns to the future.
This is true again with Ep3 when Marty ended up in the Citizen Brown timeline. There's actually no real reason as far as I can tell on why the Doc and Einstein should disappear from the DeLorean as soon as they travel into the Citizen Brown timeline whereas Marty and the DeLorean got to stay (remember there is already a goody two-shoes version of Marty that exists the same way there is a Citizen Brown).
I think you can only chalk this up to "this is just the way things work" category and that if Marty was unsuccessful in convincing Citizen Brown to fix the time machine or if he had been locked up for too long, Marty and the DeLorean would too had been eventually phase out of time.
If that had happened, I guess the question would have been, would the Citizen Brown timeline exists at all because without a time machine, then Edna and Emmett would have never got together making the Ep 3 impossible...I guess this would have created a paradox universe...probably not really worth thinking about lol
On your first point think about the critical junction points which puts the wheels in motion for the key events to transpire
1) marty being born; whether or not george and lorraine kiss on the dance floor depends on that hence why marty is given until THIS moment to fade out. Had doc not figured this out or had he known a way to get marty back to the future immediately, marty likely would have arrived in 1985 and faded out the way biff does
2) Biff fading in part II (implying he's already dead); the junction point would have been his death in the alternate timeline which he's already passed over hence why it happens immediately
3) the almanac which is the key junction for the biffhoric timeline; as soon as it's destroyted the timeline changes.
4) the tombstomb; once marty prevents doc from getting shot, his name erases. Once the tombstomb is destroyed it fades
Here's why doc fades in episode 2. Doc has spent years time traveling (and had a rejuvination) and this is likely quite a bit older than he should be in 1986. The implication is in the FCB timeline he doesn't live to whatever age he was in the previous one.
You're right about the 'critical junction points', though I'd prefer to look at it in terms of probabilities. Objects and people from the future represent the 'most likely future'...they change and/or get erased depending on how events are shaping up in the present (which is the past for time travelers from the future like Marty and Doc). The photograph of Marty's siblings only gradually fades because the probability of George and Lorraine getting together is steadily declining...during the dance, when it looks like the probability has dropped down to nearly 0, Marty starts to fade...when when they kiss, it snaps back to 100 and the photograph is instantly restored to normal and Marty stops fading.
Whereas in the case of the Almanac, the moment its burnt, the probability of George McFly being murdered or Doc being committed instantly drops to 0, hence the newspapers change back instantly.
Now, this still doesn't explain why, in Episode 2, Doc and Einstien fade from existence, while Marty doesn't. Original Doc may no longer exist in this timeline...but then again, neither does Original Marty, or the Delorean...
It's like asking if BTTF2's 1955 Marty remembers Lone Pine Mall or Twin Pines Mall.
Actually, BTTF2's 1955 Marty would remember Twin Pines Mall. The Marty we see in the background in BTTF2 performs IDENTICAL actions to those of the Marty we follow in BTTF1. So he's DEFINITELY Twin Pines Marty. Hell, there is even that part where 'our' Marty slides past the car with BTTF1 Marty and teenage Lorraine and when Lorraine says the whole 'When I have kids I'll let them do anything they want' line, BTTF1 Marty mutters "Yeah I'd like to have that in writing"...implying that he was raised by the alcoholic Twin Pines Lorraine who disapproved of his relationship with Jennifer.
True, as well as the "Jesus, you smoke too?!" line.
Old Biff in BTTF2 fades out quickly because he's moved PAST the point in time where the changes that effect his existence have already occurred. I'd hypothesize that if he had gotten back in the car and then traveled to, say, 1931, he would have faded out slowly, because he could still have changed his future.
Man, being a nerd is awesome.
You were right up until the 1931 point; Marty starts to fade at the critical junction point of his birth (the dance when it doesnt seem George will kiss lorraine).
Biff traveled past the point of his death (which had to be before 2015) hence why it was instant.
True.
In fact, the way I see it, if Old Biff travelled to 1996 and hung around there for a while, he'd be fine. The moment Lorraine shoots the alternate Biff dead though, Old Biff would instantly fade from existence.