question about BTTF 2
I recently watched BTTF the movie part 2 and I have a question regarding with Marty being in the future.
If he traveled to the future wouldn't that mean he wouldn't exist in the future? Because in the present he just disappears. He then returns 30 years into the future but as present Marty.
So technically he wouldn't have a future self. This part of the movie confused me a bit.
If he traveled to the future wouldn't that mean he wouldn't exist in the future? Because in the present he just disappears. He then returns 30 years into the future but as present Marty.
So technically he wouldn't have a future self. This part of the movie confused me a bit.
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No because the plan all along was for marty and Jennifer to return to 1985 hence why their future selves exist in 2015.
Ah I get it. So like if the DeLorean was destroyed, then the future Marty would vanish?
probably yes. There is 2 other instances of going to the future in the series;
einstein goes one minute into the future but there is no future self as doc never intends to have him relive that time. Also they spend 3 hours in the future but return roughly 10 hours after they left 1985 so Jennifer is technically still in the future but again since it's never attempted to correct his, there only is one version of 1985 Jennifer.
The reason Einstein didn't encounter his future self was because a minute is nothing, and the ripple effect from his dissappearence caught up with him pretty much immediately after he left.
I always believed that it had something to do with the ripple effect having not yet 'caught up' with 2015 and erased future Marty and Jennifer...but then I realised that that doesn't really make sense. In both other instances when Marty jumps forward in time, he already arrives in a reality which has taken into account the changes he made in the past right until the instant of his time jump. In BTTF1, when he returns to 1985, it is already the altered timeline where the mall name is different, the clocktower ledge is broken and Doc is wearing the bulletproof vest. Likewise, in BTTF3, he arrives in an altered timeline which has already taken into account the changes he made in 1885 (hence the ravine is called 'Eastwood Ravine'). So why shouldn't Marty and Jennifer arrive in an altered 2015 which has taken into account the change Doc made in 1985 (by removing them from there)?
And by all accounts, the 2015 they are in IS a reality where thirty years ago, Doc DID pick up Marty and Jennifer and take them to the future...because Old Biff remembered seeing the flying Delorean thirty years ago. So I guess the way to look at it is that the timeline somehow 'knew' Marty and Jennifer would return to 1985. But then, this brings up an interesting question-what do the 2015 Marty and Jennifer remember about 'their' trip to 2015? 2015 Marty can't remember what 'our' Marty went through in BTTF2 and 3, because those events haven't happened 'yet' in meta-time. So what DOES he remember?
You could argue that 2015 marty and jennifer are remembering things as they are happening to their younger counterparts. So when the hoverboard chase happens, the older marty remembers it. This may be why 2015 Jennifer gets so shocked seeing herself; she's essentially getting 2 sets of memories at the same time.
The only time the ripple effect takes a week is in part I with respect to the prospect of marty splitting up his parents; when they go back to 1955 again in part II and burn the almanac, the 1973 and 1983 newspapers change nearly instantly. Also when doc goes back in time 70 years, the western union agent shows up immediately. The reason why Marty took a week to fade out in part I was because of the junction point for that happening being a week away; the dance. Had 1955 doc been able to send him back to the future immediately without realizing he bumped into his parents, he likely would have faded immediately upon arrival.
Think of the future as the most likely scenario at the time you left. The most likely scenario for Marty and Jennifer is always returning to 1985. In 1955 the most likely scenario after marty prevents george from getting hit by Sam is George and Lorraine never ending up together. It's not until he punches out Biff and then kisses her that she falls for him.
I agree with everything you said except the part about future Marty and Jennifer suddenly getting new memories...it really doesn't make sense. 2015 Marty would definetly have been very disoriented throughout that scene...he wouldn't have been able to concentrate on dinner when he was getting visions of walking the streets of Hilldale as a teenager steadily flowing into his mind. It also doesn't make sense in that it brings into question what Marty remembered about his return trip to 1985...its obvious he needed to have remembered SOMETHING...
I mean look at it this way...as per your theory, 2015 Marty remembers blasting off into the future with Doc...then his mind is a total blank...then somehow he remembers living out 30 years from 1985 to 2015, starting with the car crash with Needles...then one day, on October 21st 2015, he starts remembering what happened because it is happening 'now'...it is a bit tough to digest.
Then again, your guess is probably as good as mine on this issue...
Okay, so lemme get this straight.
Your suggesting that 2015 Marty's memory is kinda like this-
He remembers admiring the new truck and then Jennifer coming along. He remembers Doc showing up and asking him to come back to the future to save his and Jennifer's kids. He remembers the Delorean flying and blasting off into the future....and then its all a blank and the next thing he remembers is somehow being back in 1985 and getting into the accident with Needles...
That doesn't make sense somehow...but quiet frankly I'm not sure what he should remember either...
I just think it is a paradox and accept the series with that paradox. There's no ultimate explanation to it since even the writers admitted such thing is illogical and told if they had planned beforehand, they wouldn't do it like that. So all your ideas are rubbish AND possible at the same time
I personally think if things have to happen first for changes to occur, timeline shouldn't really be able to foresee stuff. Doc might have planned to return, but their actual return hasn't happened yet so to me, existence of future selves is illogical. Biff remembers the delorean flying because that event has happened when they appeared in 2015.
So you ask how do the images and newspapers get changed if timeline doesn't foresee accordingly, since you know, it can't "know" what people will do according to these new changes. It's just because characters in the story needed some elements to know about the effects of the changes for the story to work and that's just that
The newspapers and images changing actually does make sense as per BTTF's logic.
Newspapers and photographs taken to the past become representations of the 'most likely future'. Based on how events stand in the present, they change accordingly to represent how things would be if the timeline was allowed to naturally progress up till the time of (their) origin.
Take the photograph of the tombstone in BTTF3. Its point of origin, chronologically, is November 13th 1955 (or is it the 14th)...but it is taken back in time to September 1885. Now since Marty has free will, he can act as he pleases in what is now his 'present' and this will accordingly influence the status quo as of the photograph's chronological point of origin. And the photograph accordingly changes to represent the most likely status quo as of November 13th 1955 based on how events stand at 'present' in 1885. A lot of this depends on probability though.
So, on September 5th 1885, Marty prevents Doc from being shot in the back by Bufford Tannen. Therefore, as of that moment, the most likely scenario on November 13th 1955 is that the tombstone WON'T have Doc's name on it. However, given that Marty and Doc (and even Clara for that matter) have antagonised Bufford, there is a probability that SOMEONE will be killed and there WILL be a tombstone at that spot in 1955, so the photo represents this possibility and the tombstone remains. It doesn't have a name because there is no overwhelming probability of any one person being killed as of that moment.
Now, on September 7th, Bufford corners Marty at the tavern and clearly intends to kill him on sight. Now, Marty's death has become a distinct possibility, and the most likely future as of that moment is one where Marty is shot dead...therefore the most likely scenario on November 13th 1955, the time the photo was taken, is that the tombstone will have the name 'Clint Eastwood' on it. Marty however defeats Bufford and Bufford is arrested and is in no position to kill ANYONE. Now the most likely future is one where NO ONE is killed by Bufford...hence, on November 13th 1955, there would be NO tombstone...and thus, to represent this most likely status quo, the tombstone fades from the photo.
I may add one thing; we do in fact see the tombstomb on september 6th meaning the most likely future is that that tombstomb will end up in the cemetery and an undetermined person will have THAT tombstomb. It doesn't disappear from the photograph specifically until it is phsyically destroyed (Buford breaks it) so once that happens that guaranteed nobody will have that particular tombstomb.
In original history, Doc builds a TimeMachine and Marty travels back to 1955. That is not only the "most likely" outcome, it IS the fact and how events really turn out. But there was no Marty in 1955 before and the Mall was named Twin Pines. So this means we have a timeline which predicts wrong. Or rather, a timeline which does selective predictions, which is ridiculous.
Timeline is incapable of predicting people's journeys to the past in the future (or evades timetravels) but somehow, when people travel to future planning to return, it creates future selves just because it predicts their return(it desn't evade in this case). Just think about it, if timeline can predict that you really return back just because you are planning to return, it should have predicted Doc's intention of building a time machine and other stuff too. In other words, there should be a static history where nothing gets changed and everything is prewritten/predicted. In 1955, a Marty should have popped out and the Mall should have always been known as Lone Pine. But a prewritten history is not the case in BTTF. So regarding future travels, the "most likely" future is that you never return and known as a lost person. Since timeline doesn't predict timetravels, your plans should simply not matter at all.
Yeah I agree with you...which is why even Bob Gale said that the future selves appearing in 2015 didn't make much sense at all.
Then again, I suppose one can bring in the argument about probabilities, which I used in the tombstone example, here as well.
The timeline does not predict future time travel and its consequences ordinarily...however, when insofar as it predicts the most LIKELY future, then if the highest probability is of a time traveller returing to his/her own time, it might show the time traveller's future self.
Say for instance, at the time Marty and Jennifer arrive in 2015, the probability of their returning to 1985 to live out the next 30 years is 100% or close to it. Every second they spend in 2015 however, reduces the probability of their returning and their future selves existing...so the existence of the future McFly's is as precarious and unstable as the photograph of Marty and his siblings in BTTF1. Of course the problem here is that there is no cosmic 'deadline' as there was in the previous case...George and Lorraine HAD to kiss by a certain time on November 12th 1955...but in this case, there is no logical 'deadline' for the time in 2015 when Marty and Jennifer MUST make the jump back to '85.
And then there is still the issue of the future selves's memories.
simply put the 'most likely' scenario is what will happen WITHOUT time travel or knowledge obtained through time travel. So for instance had the libyans showed up 5 minutes later doc would have traveled to a different future (yes i realize it would have been 2010) than the one we eventually see in part II. Reason being marty has a different timeline and likely does not get in the car accident in this one. Also doc going ahead 30 years instead of 25 was partially due to Marty ending up in 1955. The doc at the beginning never had the 1955 experience with Marty.
When doc does go to 2015 offscreen it is the same one we do see (except for Marty's children going to jail which they prevent) with the exception of Biff seeing the time machine.
Had they gone back to 2015 from the alternate timeline, as doc said it would be the future of the alternate reality with biff rich and george dead.
Doc does end up in 2025 but it is a different future than he originally sees as marty does not crash his truck in this timeline.
So if I had a time machine, i can come and go through time all I want and according to BTTF rules, as long as I dont change anything (or obtain knowledge that will change my future decisions), it will be the same things happening each time.
And as we see at the end of the game.
Completely agree with everything you've said.
I'd also like to add that we DO briefly see 2015-A or 'Hell Valley 2015', according to Bob Gale, in BTTF2...when Old Biff goes back to 1955, the timeline changes around Marty, Doc and Jennifer without their realising it, so that when Old Biff returns, he's actually in a timeline where he's supposed to have been dead for 19 years, hence he is erased. Hilldale of course hasn't changed at all...but there are several explanations for that.
That's what I am saying. This means that when you travel to future, the 'most likely' scenario is that you DON'T(or CAN'T) return WITHOUT time travel
Yeah that's true...but once again we get back to the same starting point...that somehow in the films, the timeline DID predict their return?
Yes, but in the end it's just a paradox which had to be done in order to create the 2nd movie. Trying to make sense of it will always leave you with other questions
Anyway, it's just that I accept it like that for the sake of the series and don't want to try making sense out of it. But you guys can continue, maybe you will really find something which makes sense. So I won't bother your discussion anymore. Just don't sweat it and good luck
it was probably a continuation of the timeline they left. Keep in mind Marty getting in the car accident the day AFTER they left 1985 was still a part of the 2015 timeline. It's possible that may be the reason they skip so much time (they left 1985 around 11 AM and returned at 9 PM despite only spending 3 hours in the future) is the hope that it will avoid marty's accident.
I actually wonder, had biff not stolen the time machine, maybe the accident wouldn't have happened; Jennifer would likely be unconcious and thus they wouldnt have gone to the lake and maybe Marty isn't on the road that morning. Personally i believe the future is an extension of a timeline Marty does go to the lake.
Actually, as far as the accident goes, I don't think Doc was trying to have Marty AVOID the accident. Otherwise he would simply have told him about it. Doc DID want Marty to stop reacting violently to being called 'chicken' and act more responsibly, and kept advising him to do so throughout BTTF3, but ultimately he realised that when the moment of truth came, Marty must make the choice NOT to race Needles on his own. In fact, I believe Doc, who knew WHEN the accident was scheduled to happen, deliberately asked Marty to set the destination time for their return to 1985 as 11 AM, so that Marty would have enough time to somehow be in the vicinity of the area where he would encounter Needles.
It's pretty obvious that the 2015 Marty is from a timeline where he got into the accident, but its also clear that he's from a timeline where Biff DID not steal the Delorean...because that hasn't happened 'yet'.
I do believe in the 'original' Lone Pine timeline (and from 2015 Marty's POV), he and Jennifer went to the lake on October 26th night, then he dropped Jennifer home the next morning and was driving away when he encountered Needles, took the bait, and crashed into the Rolls Royce.
Whereas, in the final Eastwood timeline, 'our' Marty returns from 1885 on October 27th morning, picks up Jennifer FROM her house and is driving when he encounters Needles and chooses NOT to race him.
The encounter with Needles somehow happens at the SAME TIME at the SAME PLACE albeit Marty's reasons for being there are different in both timelines. (I think that Space-time Preservation Effect or SPE ensured that).
Well doc seems to believe right from the getgo that people should not know too much about their future which is probably why he brings Marty to the future to prevent the robbery instead of telling him.
Dont forget docs initial plan in part III was different than what happened although this was discussed in another topic; doc was planning to go back to 1885 with marty and probably get the deloreans of the track (assuming doc didnt know the train was coming). Theres no way doc could have known Clara would have come on board and that a train was coming at 11:01 AM on October 27th 1985
you're probably right about the space preservation effect. We see similar events happen in multiple timelines;
-George and Lorraine fall in love 2 different ways in different timelines and have the same 3 children and live in the same house.
-Joey ends up in jail in the twin pines and biffhoric timelines, as well as the lone pines timeline if you count the deleted scene from part II
-marty ends up with jennifer in both timelines
-Red ends up a bum in 3 different timelines (mind you the twin pines and lone pine timelines probably play out pretty similar for anyone not associated with the McFly's or Doc)
-as mentioned marty ends up next to needles in at least 2 different timelines both times getting challenged to a race
-doc and clara meet and fall in love in 2 different timelines
Yeah, ur right about all those events-
But the SPE actually works in even MORE subtle ways that that to ensure minor disturbances don't affect the timeline. For instance, in BTTF2, despite the fact that he now has the Almanac, Biff goes through more or less the same actions at the dance that he did in the original Lone Pine timeline, at least up until the BTTF2 Marty's interference. Also, the SPE ensures that LP Marty's actions are IDENTICAL to those of TP Marty's at the mall, and that both go back in time at the same moment in the same place.