How do you define 'dark' or 'darkness' and how does this relate to KQ?
I'm curious how people define darkness in storytelling, and how do you feel it relates to the KQ series?
What is the cinematic/literary/fiction definition of dark? How does it contrast with your own interpretations of dark?
Here are a series of comments on how Roberta viewed darkness for various games in the series, that I have found;
Here is a comment from Mark Seibert;
What is the cinematic/literary/fiction definition of dark? How does it contrast with your own interpretations of dark?
Here are a series of comments on how Roberta viewed darkness for various games in the series, that I have found;
This quest (KQ6) seems to have a darker, more ominous tone than the other King’s Quests; it is also more wordy. Is there a reason?
I was thinking that same thing the other day, but I don’t believe we made it intentionally ominous. It just turned out that way.
First of all, I have to say that King's Quest comes from ME and each one is different and has its own flavor. Some have a darker tone, and others have a lighter tone. Some touch upon violence, and some don't. King's Quest reflects the mood that I am in when I go to tackle another one.
KQ3 was very dark, and it utilized lots of magic and magic spells with the basic idea of finding ingredients for "black magic" spells and then casting those spells. (Certain religious groups were upset with me over that one!)
KQ8 indeed has a story, actually, a much more profound story than prior King's Quests. It is a new telling of the ultimate "quest" the quest for the most powerful, spiritual, benevolent item of all; the Mask of Eternity. This story takes its cue from two sources: the Quest for the Grail, and the Christian story of the struggle between God and Lucifer. When we say that the story is very dark that's really not true; it's just that the story is more profound and seriously looks at the struggle between good and evil. Rather than taking a bubbly, Disney view of good and evil, I chose to look at the struggle between good and evil from a more serious, traditional, almost spiritual, viewpoint. If you look at the traditional stories of the Grail and even in past Christian legend, you find that it is not light-hearted, gooey, and bubbly. Those stories are filled with conflict, peril, finding ones own morality, proving oneself a hero by overcoming evil creatures of Chaos, but yet proving oneself virtuous and good with all things good. That is the theme with this game.
"The idea I sorta had in the back of my mind in developing this game, its not really heavy, or fleshed out strongly, it was the idea of exploring spirituality a little bit, I don't want to get heavy with this, but the idea of religions maybe, or lightness and darkness, chaos and order, and why people believe the way they do, and I sort of went back to primitive religions, and looking really at all religions, seeing what was some commonalities among them... -Roberta Williams, Talk Spot 2.
Here is a comment from Mark Seibert;
December 1998; What would the game have lost the most if you had made in the KQ7 style?
"I think the ambience, I think the game has a wonderful mood to it, it's kinda of dark and mysterious and look of the screen and the music and the sound effects just make for a wonderful experience. I don't think it would have gotten the same experience from cartoon animation."
-Mark Seibert, Talkspot Part 2
Sign in to comment in this discussion.
Comments
King's Quest has always had some "scary" elements, but they're mostly spooky and still in the realm of whimsical. King's Quest is definitely more whimsical fairy-tale than a DARK, GRITTY Adventure™.
Bt
Bt
The purpose of this thread, is to get everybody's opinions. Not just your opinion.
BTW, the purpose of this thread isn't to discuss the merits/lack of, for KQ8... So 'would you kindly' stay on subject?
Second, I tire of people saying "your opinion is just an opinion" as if to invalidate any position anyone has on a subject when they hold fast to their views. If people don't actually believe in the things they are saying, it makes the argument moot anyway since no one would be sincere enough to care about being honest.
On topic, I would agree that KQ is spooky in places while still retaining a sufficient level of whimsy. KQ6 is probably the darkest of the first 7 games, but it is held together by a more compelling story than the others which justifies the tone.
I thought the KQ2 remake did that very well with the whole sequence of getting the 3rd gem (night-time, creepy chapel, Dracula's castle, getting attacked by wild animals).
The ambiance is just right, something they failed to do properly in KQ6. KQ6 is still a great game with a fantastic story though, mind you.
Or at least how Roberta interpreted 'dark'. Not everyone seems till have the same definition for what dark means... Which is he purpose of this thread...
As for 'someone's opinion is just an opinion" you may notice Blackthorne tried to use that against Roberta Williams opinions. I brought them only into this thread to be inclusive of all the opinions on darkness out there including the one who designed the games.
Ya I'm curious of people's opinions on this game was it truly 'dark' or not?
I sort of get the impression based on her comments about KQ6, that she didn't really view KQ4 as "dark" as KQ6.
You can also infer from one of her above quotes that she must have viewed KQ3 to be darker than KQ4.
Was she right or was she wrong?
I believe MusicallyInspired or maybe Lambonius have strong opinions on what 'dark' means at least from a cinema/fiction background (may even have clinical definitions handy?), it would be interesting to get their opinions in this thread.
Personally I define "dark" as creepy, eerie, spooky, etc. KQ6 was a mature game, with complex and mature plot points, more sophisticated than any previous KQ game, sure. But it wasn't that dark. The Land of the Dead is dark until the dancing skeletons. The only really dark--as in, creepy, eerie, spooky--part of the game is the Catecombs. However, KQ4's dark tone doesn't let up AT ALL. It's a very bleak, lonely feeling game. It has almost a Twilight Zone kind of feel to it--that eeriness.
Here are many of the definitions of 'dark'... These may not necessarily be aspects of the the "literary" definition of dark. I'm not entirely sure 'creepy, scary' are defined by these definitions or even synonyms. But I'm not entirely certain what is covered under the literary definition either, Musically Inspired may up on that.
Doing a search on dark fiction, one blog gave this definition,
This definition wouldn't really apply directly to much in KQ except maybe to the abuse and punishment Alexander suffered under Manannan. It might apply to to the suggested violence implied in the history of Alhazred... Or the life Cassima was forced to live under as a slave under Mordack...
Here is another definition from a website (which I say doesn't exactly apply to any KQ game, no KQ is really horror);
Neither of these definitions really include creepyness or scariness in their definitions, but seem to suggest much more subtle and psychological emotional responses in the reader.
KQ used this a few times, mainly in KQ4 during the night scenes, and I recall a storm brew in KQ3 when the sky got dark with clouds and such. Really a useful tool for a good story and can be found in everyday life.
Good point, Jerm. And don't forget the pawn shop owner from KQ6!
Depends on the time period and context.
The type of "darkness" that is being referred to in this thread, however, is one of the major pop culture cliches of today, which is, I think, why many of us have so much trouble stomaching it.
Yeah. Ohhhh, grimdark so deep! :rolleyes:
Proper dark story-telling can be found in the original Grimm Brothers fairy tales. Those things were gruesome. In recent years the best 'dark' story I've seen was the Sweeny Todd movie.
In general KQ takes the route of the more sanitized Disney-esque route, where the more dark aspects of the original fairy tale have been removed...
You should check out the Gotrek and Felix book series. Very good, they exist in a world which is "grimdark" to begin with. Very excellent series.
A little OT but what kind of darkness would you call The Twilight Zone? It's not outright horror--But it is disturbing. Could it be called psychological darkness, ala Grimm's Fairy Tales?
I wouldn't call it dark at all. At least, not the cliche kind we're so used to seeing today. They're usually too comical, or perhaps to put it more accurately, they don't take themselves too seriously. I'd call them black humor, if anything.
Even considering the context of the time in which they were made? Today they might seem comical because we're so used to blood, guts, gore and every form of psychological horror...But in the late 1950s, early 1960s? I mean consider episodes like The Hitchhiker, or Living Doll, or Nightmare at 30,000 Feet....I don't really see any humor in them, not even black humor.
Ah...I've never really watched anything Twilight Zone related outside of the original '50s show, which is generally played straight. I remember watching Tales from the Crypt as a kid though...Even as a kid it seemed kind of campy. I've heard, however, that the original Tales of the Crypt comic books from the '50s are kind of disturbing and truly dark, same goes for a lot of EC Comics' stuff. But I've never gotten the chance to see any of it for myself.
It uses some "darker" elements as part of an overall palette of emotional elements to create a full experience. A common cliche today is to make everything so over-archingly "dark" and melodramatic, that it feels like you're caught in a teenager's view of what life is. I find so many people taking beloved figures from their childhood (Such as He-Man, Thundercats, Transformers) and making them "dark" as they are now adults. Maybe it's the cynicsm of finding out that life isn't the bag of fun and diamonds that you felt you were promised when you were a kid - when you find out that you're not the unique and special flower that people told you that you were all throughout your childhood you might get a little bitter. Problem is, today, that grown men and women just won't let go of that teen angst.
Bt
Black humor and dark humor are the same thing actually. Often this type of humor has a psychological aspect to it... Thus why its kind of a subcategory of dark fiction, or often tied into dark fiction.
Alfred Hitchcock was the genius when it came to the macabre humor!
Dark and creepy are two separate issues...
Dark =/= Creepy you can have one without the other in a story. Creepy is more the horror direction, dark is more the psychological...
In KQ4 the dark psychological aspect is knowing that the clock is counting down, if your quest isn't successful you might be stuck in Tamir, or your father might die. There are psychological overtones in that you are being manipulated by an evil being in her plans to destroy and conquer the world.
But the game is also filled with many horror elements (the scary and the creepy) as well dark, dark =/= horror.
The thing about dark fiction is it tends to affect different people differently, it's more subtle and effects more at the psychological level. Horror tends to be more blunt and effects most audience (perhaps on a base emotional level).
That is why KQ6 can be described as having a darker tone, as it's subtle and may only be 'dark' to some on a psychological level, but not to the whole audience.
The Realm of the Dead has elements of dark, horror, and dark humor. All of these can interact but are not the same thing.
Another literary website described the difference as such;
Another good example, is KQ3 is a very bright and cheery setting (it is not 'physically dark'), even when you get to Daventry, everything is pretty colorful... But it touches on the dark psychological elements, such as the fact that you are a slave boy, that is routinely punished/tortured, is going to be killed soon, and must work against a clock to survive. There is also darkness to the fact that Daventry is not the same kingdom it once was, and also heading towards its doom, despite how bright the kingdom may look... You have a once fully benevolent king who is now willing to send innocent maidens, and his own daughter to their deaths, sacrificting them to a dragon... Who has locked himself in his castle in a state of hopelessness, awaiting his final destuction... You as a character are working againts a clock to save teh kingdom and your sister. The only way you can, is to resort to the use of dark and evil magic ('dark fantasy', tends towards the 'evil' side of 'dark' in meaning).
KQ3 is Dark without Horror (a good example that the two are separate issues)...
Here is a definition of 'dark fantasy' that I found in a literary/writer's glossary that might separate and give understanding to the different types of dark fiction;
Notice, it says similar to horror, but its not actually horror.
KQ in my opinion isnt supposed to be looked at in this way for me. Its a lighthearted adventure fantasy... classic good vs. not good. Theres witches, wizards, talking owls, even death himself. What I think is lost in our current state is that storytellers are trying to make these types of storys or games more realistic. Trying to attach emotional feelings and modern reactions to a genre that is purely meant to stay in the fantasy realm. Yes it may have dark elements but that's just a storytelling arc and nothing more to me.
hahaha
I would classify Cedric as pure evil.
Bt
Take King's Quest V, Mordack has Cassima locked in his castle, working as his servant unless she agrees to marry him? This situation makes no sense when you are an adult, but in a child logic where babies are delivered by storks, it makes perfect sense. It's on this logic that King's Quest works. There is no war, sex or politics, good and evil are absolute values, there are no real life consequences and you're not supposed to think about the ramifications to anything, the second you do, the world and plot fall apart.
And it's this logic that keeps the darkness in King's Quest lighthearted. A logic that dictates nothing truly bad and irreversible ever happens to good persons, they are turned into tree or animals, shrunk, poisoned into deep sleep, conveniently swallowed whole by monsters, locked in towers... so they can be rescued later on. Even when Cassima's parents get killed, you go in the underworld to rescue them. I could be wrong, my memory is rather fuzzy, but as far as I remember and excluding the main character for obvious reasons, no good person ever died (permanently) in this series, except the king in the first game, who died of old age.
See where I'm going? It gets dark and scary at time, there are evil monsters and wizards all over the place, and of course, the player can die in dozens of different ways, but at the same time, even at its darkest hour, threat and bad guys motivations are simple, things remain lighthearted and after the direst torments, characters remain happy go lucky and live happily ever after (at least until the sequel.)
Approaching King's Quest with real life, adult or fridge logic is missing the point entirely, because like the Mario Bros universe, it works on its own internal, childish and whimsical logic.
Yes, very well stated.
I've been thinking about this, both in the context of this thread and in relation to having recently played The Silver Lining.
To me, darkness in fiction is a sense of foreboding or dread, intended and all-pervasive, as the likelihood of any kind of happy ending diminishes. KQ might have temporary moments of "impending doom", fairy-tale style, but you pretty much always know that things will work out satisfactorily in the end.
This is why TSL is so... weird. Mostly it's KQ-style adventuring, lighthearted and whimsical, interspersed with scenes showing the real-world anguish of fairy-tale tragedies -- dealt with in 21st-century fashion, no less, which makes it even weirder. It's totally disjointed and incongruous. Your final point really hits home: "Approaching King's Quest with real life, adult or fridge logic is missing the point entirely".
It's pretty much 'psychological thriller'.
But what was scary or dark back then, isn't as scary and dark now. The standards have changed over time. The new standards are full of 'angsty' teenage age drama, and lots of violence and death...
Bt
Marc Scott Zicree points out very astutely in his introduction to The Twilight Zone Companion that it was the first television series to deal on a regular basis with alienation, loneliness, and isolation.
Probably most of the quintessential Twilight Zone episodes are about these existential questions - sense of meaninglessness, not belonging. Those are also typically the episodes that I feel have not dated at all, really, because no matter how well-adjusted or balanced we imagine ourselves, none of us are immune from these feelings that drive people to madness or suicide every day.
If it seems a minority concern or something, you just give it some time...
Exactly!
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Occurrence_at_Owl_Creek_Bridge_(film)