New Doc's memories
After going through the whole game again, I gave a lot of though (admittedly, perhaps TOO much thought) to the whole issue of the 'new' Doc who shows up in Episode 5. There have been a LOT of threads on the subject of this new Doc on these boards...but most of them have been with regards to where his Delorean came from and whether or not he's the same Doc who was in Episodes 1 and 2.
However, what I'm curious to know is the state of this new Doc's memories.
We know that the new Doc is the future self of the teenage Emmett Brown we have been interacting with in Episodes 1-5. He remembers meeting Marty in 1931, he remembers dating Edna and then breaking up with her, he remembers patching things up with his father at the Expo, as a result of which, he ends up running his late father's Foundation and becomes a more respected figure in town. He has never (to our knowledge) seen Frankenstien...instead, he derived his inspiration from watching lightning from atop the Clock Tower in Episode 4.
However, this Doc has also been through all the events of the movies, or at least that's what we've been led to believe. He definetly remembers the events in 1885, and he's married to Clara and has two sons, Jules and Verne. The only difference is that after the events of the movies, he chose to return to 1986 and settle down.
Now, the first issue I have with regards to Doc's memories is-why doesn't he remember the original timeline?
I think most people agree that time traveler's usually NEVER forget their original timeline. Marty, for instance, still remembers his Twin Pines history with loser parents. There's a lot of debate about whether or not time traveler's would have memories of the new timeline (I personally believe they do), but no one denies the fact that they always remember the original timeline (from which they first started time travelling). Now Doc definetly recalls the new timeline, where he and his father patched up and he lives in 1986...but why doesn't he also remember the ORIGINAL timeline in which he and his father continued to have a troubled relationship and he never returned to live in 1986? Why is he surprised when Marty tells him about how he never returned in the original timeline?
That said, if we assume that the new Doc is a TOTALLY different entity who can NEVER remember the original timeline...then the question arises...does he have memories ONLY of ONE version of the revised timeline, or does he have memories of SEVERAL previous timelines?
What I mean is, does the new Doc remember the local ravine only as Eastwood Ravine, or does he remember it once being called Clayton Ravine? Does he remember finding the Delorean at the Delgado Mine in 1955 and sending Marty back to 1885, or does he remember simply going back home after the lightning bolt at the end of BTTF1?
If Doc can remember the ravine being called Clayton Ravine in a previous timeline, then why wouldn't he remember having a bad relationship with his father in a previous timeline?
I know I'm thinking too much into it...but I'm really confused about this new Doc's personal timeline.
However, what I'm curious to know is the state of this new Doc's memories.
We know that the new Doc is the future self of the teenage Emmett Brown we have been interacting with in Episodes 1-5. He remembers meeting Marty in 1931, he remembers dating Edna and then breaking up with her, he remembers patching things up with his father at the Expo, as a result of which, he ends up running his late father's Foundation and becomes a more respected figure in town. He has never (to our knowledge) seen Frankenstien...instead, he derived his inspiration from watching lightning from atop the Clock Tower in Episode 4.
However, this Doc has also been through all the events of the movies, or at least that's what we've been led to believe. He definetly remembers the events in 1885, and he's married to Clara and has two sons, Jules and Verne. The only difference is that after the events of the movies, he chose to return to 1986 and settle down.
Now, the first issue I have with regards to Doc's memories is-why doesn't he remember the original timeline?
I think most people agree that time traveler's usually NEVER forget their original timeline. Marty, for instance, still remembers his Twin Pines history with loser parents. There's a lot of debate about whether or not time traveler's would have memories of the new timeline (I personally believe they do), but no one denies the fact that they always remember the original timeline (from which they first started time travelling). Now Doc definetly recalls the new timeline, where he and his father patched up and he lives in 1986...but why doesn't he also remember the ORIGINAL timeline in which he and his father continued to have a troubled relationship and he never returned to live in 1986? Why is he surprised when Marty tells him about how he never returned in the original timeline?
That said, if we assume that the new Doc is a TOTALLY different entity who can NEVER remember the original timeline...then the question arises...does he have memories ONLY of ONE version of the revised timeline, or does he have memories of SEVERAL previous timelines?
What I mean is, does the new Doc remember the local ravine only as Eastwood Ravine, or does he remember it once being called Clayton Ravine? Does he remember finding the Delorean at the Delgado Mine in 1955 and sending Marty back to 1885, or does he remember simply going back home after the lightning bolt at the end of BTTF1?
If Doc can remember the ravine being called Clayton Ravine in a previous timeline, then why wouldn't he remember having a bad relationship with his father in a previous timeline?
I know I'm thinking too much into it...but I'm really confused about this new Doc's personal timeline.
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Yeah...I agree he's a new Doc. And also that he's gone through the events of the movies as well.
Okay, let me put it this way-in the movies, we see many different versions of Doc. We have Lone Pine Doc, who's the one we follow in 1955 in BTTF1, and alongside Marty in BTTF2 and 3. This Doc remembers meeting Marty in 1955 but after the lightning bolt at the Clock Tower he remembers going home and he doesn't meet Marty again till the mid 1980's. Then, in the early part of BTTF3, Marty messes with Doc's timeline again, by telling him about his future self being trapped in the Old West. Thus, we have a new version of Doc (let's call him 'Shonash Doc') who uncovers the Delorean from the Delgado Mine and sends Marty back to 1885 to rescue his future self. However, when Marty meets the Doc trapped in 1885, that Doc doesn't remember Marty's second trip to 1955, dressing Marty in the cowboy outfit etc. because Doc still remembers his original timeline (the Lone Pine timeline), in which he only met Marty once in 1955 and in which the ravine was called Clayton Ravine. Whether or not he gets his new memories is academic-the important thing is that this Doc remembers the ORIGINAL timeline in which the ravine was called Clayton Ravine.
Now, this is the same Doc whom we follow in Episode 1 and 2. In other words, the Doc in Episode 1 and 2 who was in jail in 1931 remembered the original history in which the ravine was called Clayton Ravine. He also obviously remembered a history in which he and his father were never on good terms.
However, in Episode 5, we have a new Doc who seemingly remembers ONLY the new timeline-in which he and his father eventually became very close. Since this 'new timeline' created by Marty's actions in 1931, appears to be the ORIGINAL timeline of this Doc, and its clear that the events of BTTF3 have happened in this timeline in 1885, does it mean that this Doc ONLY remembers the ravine being called Eastwood Ravine and a 1955 in which Marty visited him for the second time as well? Does he remember the fact that there were previous timelines in which that wasn't the case?
This one is more complicated: I think that the trip to 1885 created a Twin Pines Eastwood Ravine Timeline. It wouldn't change a lot, just "Clayton Ravine" lines replaced by "Eastwood Ravine", and Marty telling Doc why it got the name, then saying: "Holy crap, that's me.".
And after Marty's first trip to 1955, the Twin Pines Eastwood Ravine Timeline is replaced by the Lone Pine Eastwood Ravine Timeline. Add to that the changes in 1931. So the new Doc is the Lone Pine Eastwod Ravine Good Father Doc. Like I said, he's almost the same Doc as the one in the 3rd movie end, with a better father, who lives in 1986, even 1985, and with minor memory changes.
That's an interesting theory. So you're suggesting that every trip to the past PRIOR to the divergence caused by a previous trip results not in a new timeline, but a new SERIES of timelines; wherein all the timelines caused by chronologically LATER (but earlier in meta-time) divergences need to play out.
If you're theory is true, then that means there was not only an 'Eastwood Twin Pines' and 'Eastwood Lone Pine' timeline, but an 'Eastwood Hell Valley' at one point as well!
If your theory is true...then the events of 1931 originally led to a timeline wherein the Emmett who had a good relationship with his father ended up gunned down by Libyans and died in Twin Pines Mall (before Marty changed things).
The problem with this is that we're led to believe that the timelines change instantaneously via the ripple effect...so there doesn't seem room for 'intermediate' timelines. Also, the very fact that the Eastwood timeline was created ITSELF implies that the Lone Pine timeline was created BEFORE...which makes the idea of an 'Eastwood Twin Pines' timeline a bit hard to fathom.
Also, the ripple effect happens only for the time travelers. For every one else, it's a whole new timeline. Doc sayed that you must not erase the reason of your time travel. It happened some times, but didn't create paradoxes. I think that's because the ripple effect doesn't change the timelines, it transports the time travelers to other timelines or erased them if they did not exist in te new timeline, but every on would rememer you even if you disapeare. Edna still remember of Old Doc and First Citizen Brown, even if they never existed in the new timeline. It implies that their timelines somehow still exist.
Doc doesn't remember the original timeline because it never happened. I am talking about going to 1931 and getting arrested. He remembers the events of the movie because they still occurred. After Marty comes back for Doc in the third movie he decided to come back to 1985 to live their.
The reason Marty remembers is because Doc was pulled into the new timeline. That brings a new question. Why wasn't Marty pulled into the new timeline? After all the change did affect him. Or maybe the question is why was Doc pulled into the new timeline? That never happened in BTTF before (Besides being erased from existence). They just continue their lives that they don't remember because they only remember the original timeline. I have no explanation.
Okay, I admit you have a point there. Still, BTTF2 does debunk your theory somewhat...
In BTTF2, Marty and Doc go back to 1955 to get the Almanac. They arrive at a point on November 12th EARLIER than Old Biff did. Which means that as per your theory, when they arrive, there shouldn't be any Old Biff to see and any Almanac to steal back because everything would be as it was in BTTF1 in the Lone Pine timeline. The timeline would naturally continue on till 2015, and THEN Biff would steal the Almanac and go back...and this time, Marty and Doc would already be present...
Okay, now that I've written it down, it makes a bit of sense...but obviously then, the time traveler's don't really perceive these 'intermediate' timelines. I guess that's one way it could work. Remember, ultimately Marty doesn't remember a Twin Pines/Eastwood timeline. He definetly remembers a Twin Pines/Clayton timeline, and he MIGHT later remember a Lone Pine/Clayton timeline and a Lone Pine/Eastwood timeline...but I really don't think he remembers the intermediate Twin Pines/Eastwood timeline.
Well, the simple answer to that is that Marty was existing outside his own time and was the cause of the changes that created the new timeline-so as such he is still the version from the original timeline. Its the same with BTTF2-he remembers the original history because he was in 1955, while George, Lorraine and everyone else only remembers the new history.
However, in this case, the problem is that Doc is a time traveler as well. If he has been through the events of the movies, then he has time traveled numerous times as well. Now the very first issue is-why wasn't this Doc replaced by his 'original' self? LP Marty was 'replaced' by TP Marty when he made the first jump back to 1955...why wasn't the new Doc replaced by LP Doc when HE made his first jump...? Even if one assumes that Marty eventually gained his LP memories (and I do believe that), he clearly remembers the TP timeline as well...why doesn't Doc remember HIS original timeline as well?
And speaking of Marty-at what point did the 'new' Marty of this timeline get replaced by the original Marty whom we follow in the game? Was it when he made the first jump back to 1955? If that was the case then wouldn't Marty be surprised, when he was in 1955, about stuff like Doc running a foundation in his late father's name, which he didn't remember from the original timeline? Wouldn't this in itself clue in Marty (and Doc) that Doc's personal timeline was changed at some point?
I think this alone is enough evidence to assume Marty STILL remembers the lone pine timeline;
in the FCB timeline it's now been renamed Clayton ravine. Marty and Doc were the only 2 people (as of the end of the trilogy) who knew that at one time it was named Clayton ravine. Obviously FCB hasn't been through the 1885 time travel and in the FCB timeline neither has old Doc. Marty points out at the beginning of episode 4 that Clayton ravine is named after Docs wife in his timeline meaning he likely does remember learning in school the story of Clara going over the ravine.
Yeah I never disputed that. Marty remembers the original timeline and the ravine being called Clayton Ravine...my question is if the 'new' Doc in episode 5 remembers it being called Clayton Ravine?
Except for new Doc, since every timeline are reset except 1931, he's not Good Father Lone Pine Eastwood Ravine Doc, he's Good Father Lone Pine Clayton Ravine Doc. It's more simple now, since it makes no change in the movies at all. So yes, New Doc remembers Clayton Ravine.
Um, I'm sorry...you've lost me there completely. However I will make an attempt to understand what I think you're trying to say.
So, according to you the creation of the new timeline in 1931 leads initially to what you call the 'Twin Pines Clayton Ravine Good Father' timeline. In this timeline, Doc has a good relationship with his father, but George and Lorraine are losers, Marty's life is that of TP Marty, and the ravine is called Clayton Ravine. So everything except Doc's personal history is the same as at the start of BTTF1. In this timeline Doc ends up dead. Then, the Marty of this timeline goes back to 1955 and creates a 'Lone Pine Clayton Ravine Good Father' timeline, in which George and Lorraine are successful and Doc wore a bulletproof vest and so survived the Libyans attack...but in which the ravine is still called Clayton Ravine. Eventually, the Doc of this timeline gets stuck in 1885 and his and Marty's actions create the 'Lone Pine Eastwood Ravine Good Father' timeline...except that since Doc is from the 'Lone Pine CLAYTON Ravine Good Father' timeline he remembers the ravine as Clayton Ravine.
It's quiet a complex theory and I commend you on it (though of course I have seen a similar theory before on another site with regards to BTTF3)...but the reason why I have my doubts is that we now have TWO variations of the Twin Pines timeline and two TP Marty's...one who knew the Doc who had a good relationship with his father and 'our' Marty who knew the Doc who had a bad relationship. The whole thing gets convoluted when you try to figure at what point did 'our' Twin Pines Marty replace the 'other' Twin Pines Marty...
Also, as I mentioned in the BTTF2 example with Old Biff, it seems that the prior existence of the previous timeline is essential for the existence of the current timeline. So, in terms of meta-time, the existence of, say, the Eastwood timeline is dependent on the prior existence of the Shonash timeline, which in turn is dependent on the prior existence of the Lone Pine timeline. It also seems that even if the past is altered prior to an earlier (in meta-time) divergence, the later events do stay intact. So when Doc was stuck in 1885, Marty's original trip to 1955 was very much in the future of that very timeline, because it was done and set in stone already...so there could never be an 'Eastwood Twin Pines' timeline...
There's no answer as to whether or not Doc should actually remember it being called clayton ravine (and remember in the convo in part III he brings it up, marty tells him the story). Basically we're in a loop here; he'd remember the last timeline of him getting along great with his father, presumably still getting visited by marty in 1955, building the delorean in 1985, a timeline we dont see where he remains in his timeline from 1985-1986 and then visits marty.
Kind of off topic here but it's been brought up that in episode 1, doc planned on visiting marty in 2011. I wonder if THIS is when he plans on giving marty the book at the end. Since he can reconnect with Marty any tie he wants, he may have intially been planning on including his children (which may or may not be Marty Jr and Marlene). In the new timeline he may have stopped with martys generation since Doc is now living in the 80s anyhow.
Okay, let's try to fit what you've said about the new Doc's personal timeline into perspective...
We know that this Emmett Brown remembers meeting 'Sonny Crockett' in June 1931, and helping take down Kid Tannen in August. He remembers dating Edna Strickland for two months before they broke up. And he remembers Sonny/Marty helping him complete his rocket car in time for the Expo, as well as patching things up with his father. And the last we see of young Emmett is when Marty hands him the newspaper clipping...
Okay...let's try to extrapolate this new Doc's life from this.
Okay, so Emmett becomes a full-time scientist, with his father's support and encouragement. He's probably a more respected figure in town this time round. Judge Brown eventually passes away and Emmett comes into the estate and inherits his father's foundation.
When 1955 comes around, Emmett falls off his toilet seat on November 5th and has the vision for the flux capacitor. Then, that evening, he meets Marty McFly (from BTTF1), who claims to be from the future. He thus sees the Delorean and realises he was destined to invent the time machine (on other threads, I've discussed whether or not Emmett might recognise Marty as his old friend from 24 years ago, and whether he recognises the Delorean as Carl Sagan's futuristic car or indeed HIMSELF as Carl Sagan...but let's ignore that for now). Doc helps Marty get back to 1955 on November 12th. And then, logically (since the events of 1885 have been restored to the timeline), the second Marty (from BTTF2) arrives and send him into a shock. Doc discovers he was trapped in 1885. He uncovers the Delorean from the Delgado Mine. And he sends back Marty to 1885 (I'll just ignore the whole bit about the tombstone-since that paradox is another matter entirely) on November 16th.
The decades roll by and at some point Doc reads Marty's letter warning him about the Libyans (again, would this possibly remind him of the newspaper clipping the 'other' Marty gave him in 1931?). He befriends Marty in the 1980's. Then, on October 26th 1985, the first temporal experiment is carried out at Lone Pine Mall. Doc survives the shooting because of the bulletproof vest. And now comes the point when he begins his time travels...
So this is the entire pre-time travel personal timeline of the new Doc. We know that this new timeline, caused by Marty's actions in 1931, is the 'original' timeline for this Doc, since he retains his memories of it and not of any previous timeline. And therefore, since the ravine was called Eastwood Ravine in the new timeline (which in turn automatically implies Marty being sent back from 1955 to 1885)...then logically, the new Doc would not even remember the ravine ever being called Clayton Ravine in any previous timeline (because from his POV, there never WAS a 'previous timeline'). He would also not remember a timeline where he DID NOT dress up Marty in cowboy clothes and send him back to 1885.
I wonder what the implications of this will be for the events of the movies, in the new timeline. So now, Doc knows right from the start that he will be trapped in 1885. He would know, while hovering above Lyons Estates in 1955, that he would be struck by lightning. Hell, he would even know that Old Biff went back to November 12th 1955 to give himself the Almanac (which would negate the need for Marty to question Biff). At the bare minimum, he won't freak out after saving Clara because he never knew she was supposed to fall in. Which raises another interesting point-who was the Marty who time traveled alongside this new Doc? Was it 'our' Marty or the Marty of the new timeline? When did 'our' Marty replace the Marty of the new timeline?
Our doc got erased... Marty never got erased so hes our guy from the 1st movie to the end of the game.
thats why he remembers everything.
The new doc never lived through his orginal past. If "our" doc did not get erased then he he would have had both memories. (although I'm not a fan of the memerioe theory i played along here to help).
And that ends this thread.
No it doesn't end this tread. Like I said before, Why was Doc erased? He didn't get removed from existence his timeline just changed. And if Doc wasn't erased (Which should have happened) then he would not have the memories of the new timeline.
Take BTTF part one for instance. At the end of the movie when Marty returns, he sees that his timeline changed. However he is confused about what he is seeing.
As far as the memories of the new timeline goes...that's a debate that will never truly end. I personally believe that Marty eventually remembers the new timeline as well.
However the important thing is that time traveler's always remember their original timeline-Marty for instance remembers the Twin Pines timeline...'our' Doc in the movies remembers the Lone Pine timeline (in which Marty visited him ONCE in 1955 and the ravine was called Clayton Ravine), because that was, from his POV, the original timeline in which he first started time traveling.
However, it appears that from the new Doc's POV, the altered timeline caused by Marty's actions in 1931 is the 'original timeline'...and since the events of 1885 are part of that 'original timeline' as well, then he should logically remember the ravine being called Eastwood Ravine and never Clayton Ravine (and he would NEVER remember the history in which Marty only visited him once in 1955)...
Ok ok, i see your point i didn't read all the posts. your right tho doc should not have been erased... that would mean fcb should of stayed solid as well.
this is exactly why i like Muti universe theory over ripple effect singular timeline travel.