How was Marty in FCB timeline's 1931?
This seems like a paradox to me. When Edna prevented Doc from seeing Frankenstein, it created a timeline where Doc never invents the time machine. This means that all of the time traveling adventures should have been erased, including all of Marty's interactions with 1931. But we see in Doc's office that there is a picture of old Doc and Marty in 1931 still.
How is this possible? The problem is that this whole timeline without the time machine can only exist as a result of the time machine. Technically, the universe should have imploded at this point.
How is this possible? The problem is that this whole timeline without the time machine can only exist as a result of the time machine. Technically, the universe should have imploded at this point.
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Actually the disappearance makes sense; Doc gets a rejuvenation in 2015 and has spent decades away from his natural timeline (at least ten years in the 1800s plus more at the start of the year). In the FCB timeline this doesnt happen so it's implied that he doesn't live that long.
Unfortunately the rest is a plot hole; it's specifically stated that the 1885 trip does not happen in the FCB timeline and presumably the 1955 ones do not either yet clearly stated the previous 1931 travels did still happen (the picture and the fact that when they go back in episodes 4 and 5, everyone still remembers 'Carl Sagan' and Harry/Michael/Davy
-As you said, Doc shouldn't have faded out before Marty in FCB 1986
-Even if I accept that, Doc shouldn't have met Marty in 1931 in this timeline.
-Even if I accept THAT, Marty's fade out was ridiculously slow, lasting all the way to the end of Episode 4
-When FCB went to 1931 to fix his timeline, he should have retained his FCB memories since he was a party to the time travel. His new 1986 should be strange and foreign to him.
-When FCB becomes Doc again, he shouldn't have been sent to 1986. Nor should a second Delorean have existed. This is akin to Marty changing his parents at the end of the first movie. He created a new timeline for himself, where he grew up with different furniture and a different family. However, Marty does not just automatically get sent back to 1985 at this point, he has to do it manually.
I agree that Doc fading out at the end of Episode 2, but Marty not fading out, doesn't really make sense. I never bought the argument that the original Doc would fade because his alternate self did not get a rejuvenation treatment and likely wouldn't live to be HIS age (that really doesn't make much sense!). The best argument I can come up with is that since the FCB timeline was caused by a catastrophic change in DOC's past, he was erased...whereas Original Marty managed to stay intact inspite of the timeline change.
I believe Marty SHOULD have been in danger of fading out while in FCB 1986...however, once back in 1931, he wouldn't have a problem, since the 'future isn't written' and there was still a probability that Edna and Emmett wouldn't hook up and Marty's timeline would be restored.
As far as FCB Doc becoming 'Original Doc' (or rather, a 'New Doc') goes, look at it this way. FCB Doc's timeline was drastically altered when the probability of young Emmett hooking up with Edna became 0 (after the Expo). Leaving aside all other changes, at the very LEAST, there was NO reason in the new timeline for him to travel back to 1931, and so he was erased from existence. In the new timeline, Doc would still be in 1986 (until he reads Marty's newspaper clipping). So its not a question of FCB Doc becoming 'our' Doc...rather, FCB Doc's timeline is erased (along with him) and is replaced by a timeline where 'our' Doc never made a trip back to 1931.
marty never made the trip either since doc never invented time travel. the reason IS doc not living long enough, so he disappears when he time travelled back to 1986, he's 30 years older or more, i mean he spent 10 years in 1885 and lived in 1885 till he made the train then years later he sent jules and verne to college, not to mention the time he spent in 2015 till he learnt about marty's kids and went back to 1985, plus the rejuvination treatment made him healthy extending his life, so it makes sense that if he never invented time travel he would die younger than if he did time travel, hence disappearing makes perfect sense
First off, I never really bought the idea that changes in the time could retroactively change events of the past. I mean, I can understand the events of 1955 not happening in the Citizen Brown timeline - but that's because 1955 comes after 1931, while 1885 comes before 1931. Second of all, even if we are to buy the idea that time travel can work that way - it doesn't make sense that only the events of 1885 would be erased, while the events of 1931 aren't.
There hasn't been a definitive explanation other than it's critical for the events of 1931 to have happened to set the FCB timeline in motion whereas the events of 1885 were not critical for that timeline- they are important in a more roundabout way but they didnt HAVE to happen for the FCB timeline to happen.
I completely understand where you're coming from. It just doesn't make sense for any event BEFORE the point of divergence to be affected. It goes completely against everything we've seen in the movies, and even the Game itself!
Because, if you believe that the ripple effect retroactively undoes the actions of time travelers in the past, then that means there wouldn't have been a second Marty in 1955, in BTTF2, trying to get his parents together. For that matter, there wouldn't have been an Old Biff either and therein lies the seeds of paradox.
I agree they did it mostly for the emotional impact of Clara having died and Jules and Verne never existing-and also to drive home the point of all the events of the previous movies being undone (much like how they explicitly make the point about George and Lorraine reverting to their unsuccessful TP versions).
The best explanation I can think of is that by radically altering the timeline of Emmett Brown, such that he doesn't even CONCEIVE of time travel, it upset the entire space-time continuum, such that ALL time travels to the past were erased, except the ones which were needed for the current alternate timeline to come into existence. By that logic, killing Emmett when he was a baby, or preventing his birth, may well blow up the universe! Emmett Brown is apparently the lynchpin who holds the space-time continuum together...mess with him, and time gets messed up.
But its interesting to consider the reality warping implications though. At the end of Episode 2, the moment Edna prevents Emmett from going to see Frankenstien, all kinds of changes would be taking place in Hill Valley. All signboards identifying 'Eastwood Ravine' would change to 'Clayton Ravine' with people's memories being accordingly altered, Doc's letter which has been with Western Union for 46 years would vanish (along with all memory of it!), the Delorean buried in Delgado Mine would vanish, anybody who remembered a certain eccentric blacksmith, his wife Clara and their two kids would have their memories altered to forget them...altogether things would be real messed up!
that's the only logical explanation I can come up with; while the trilogy's time travels led to the FCB timeline in a round about way they weren't actually NEEDED. Doc could have gone to 1931 from the getgo (mind you marty needed to know how the time machine works). But the 1931 time travels were essential for that time travel. If they get erased so does the timeline.
By that logic, Marty's original trip to 1955 should have been erased in BTTF2, because it only led to Old Biff's trip to 1955 in a 'round about way'.
I think my explanation of the timeline being seriously f#cked up because of Emmett's timeline being altered makes more sense.
Although, I must admit that it was a neat way for Marty to have worked himself out of being stranded in the past. However, if that actually works, then Marty could have just done the same thing in the first film - when he was stuck in 1955. It also makes you wonder what became of Harry/Michael/Sonny during that time.
Quite frankly, I think the last two episodes really screwed everything up.
Yeah I admit, that was another thing which didn't make much sense as per what was established in the films.
In BTTF2, when Doc gets struck by lightning and sent back to 1885, almost IMMEDIATELY after (not more than a minute certainly on-screen), we see the Western Union man coming down the road. That implies that the ripple effect is instantaneous...the MOMENT Doc is zapped back to the past, Lone Pine 1955 transforms into Shonash 1955.
Whereas in the Game there seems to be a sort of 'lag' between the time when Edna goes to the past and the time when the ripple effect transforms 1931...which logically doesn't make sense. Once someone is in the past, the only reality in the present should be one extrapolated from that person's arrival in the past. The idea of it taking TIME for the changes to 'catch up' to the present makes zero sense...but that seems to be what the Game implies.
Which begs the question-what was the fate of Edna in the timeline the new Doc came from? He obviously didn't remember Edna having married Kid Tannen...so what DID he remember as Edna's fate? Did he just remember her having disappeared in 1931 on the day of the Expo?
i thought of that, the doc that left 1986 came back to a different 1986 that he remembers, but only one with edna marrying kid and ending up being a step mom to biff, i wonder tho if edna simply disappeared in 1931 in doc's timeline, then he went back and the ripple effect happened, i mean in doc;s timeline edna would have still gone back in time in the delorean, but who knows
Well without the original 1955 trip, part II likely doesn't happen; Marty probably doesn't get into the car accident in the original timeline since he has no truck, Biff is not doing auto detailing (which is what put him at the cafe 80's in the first place and likely makes him a bitter old man).
I kind of wonder if the trip to 1955 makes Marty more bitter in this 2015 timeline; at the beginning of part I marty is lamenting how he'll never get to play in front of anyone. At the end of the film he does but it seems this is the last time as he breaks his hand and gives up his music. It's almost a Kingpin scenario (for anyone who hasn't seen it, a rookie bowler wins the championship his first year then gets his hand cut off ) You can imagine what that can do to a person if they only get a brief glimpse of their dream before it's gone forever.
Yeah, but in the Hell Valley timeline, ultimately, the time machine itself isn't invented, so it wouldn't make a difference if Marty had a truck or not!
The reason why the second Marty is present is because the divergence in the timeline produced by Old Biff's trip occurred AFTER Marty's arrival. Marty arrived on November 5th 1955...Old Biff arrived on November 12th 1955, after Marty had been around for a whole week. So his actions couldn't change the fact that Marty was already present in the past and preparing to go with Lorraine to the Enchantment under the Sea dance. Had Old Biff traveled back to, say, November 4th 1955, the night before Marty arrived, and gave Young Biff the Almanac, then Marty wouldn't have arrived the next morning at the Peabody farm.
Likewise, it makes sense for the 1955 trips to be undone because of Doc and Marty's trips to 1931, because they occur AFTER the point of divergence caused by those trips. However, the 1885 trips occur BEFORE the divergence in 1931...
That's my guess as well...and yet, from the POV of 1931, the most likely future is one where Edna goes back in time...which means that logically there COULDN'T be any future for that timeline.
Its just like how no time travelers can from from the 2015 of the Twin Pines timeline, because the Twin Pines timeline logically ended when Marty went back.
JANEWAY: My advice in making sense of temporal paradoxes is simple. Don't even try.
Simples... Lol.
1) time travelers exist in the part of time they traveled, as a way of the universe correcting itself, even if the time travel didn't happen.
2) the time ripple effect hadn't yet caught up to them, so they still exist out of place until time catches up with itself.
Either answer works until if/when we get an answer from Bob Gale about how paradoxes work in the Back to the Future universe. The second option works because even though Doc and First Citizen Brown are in 1931 for a long time (six months in FCB's case), Marty slowed down the ripple effect by getting Citizen Brown to invent the flux capacitor. At that point, the major paradox (Doc never built a time machine) is fixed, so the minor paradox (Citizen Brown and Marty never traveled to 1931 during the first week Doc and Marty went there) catches up to itself slower, since the possibility for it to happen still exists since there is a DeLorean and there is a Doc Brown and Marty to take the trips.
I think its pretty clear, from BTTF2 AND from the Game,, that option 1) does indeed happen...the time travelers do exist in the period of time to which they time traveled earlier, provided their arrival in the past occurred BEFORE the point of divergence which created the alternate timeline (Marty arrived in 1955 before Biff got the Almanac, Marty and Doc were in 1931 before Edna and Emmett hooked up...).
The questions which haven't been answered are-what happens to the time travelers in the alternate timeline if the time machine wasn't invented (or they simply didn't go back in time)? And, what happens to their counterparts in the alternate timeline who didn't time travel?
The first question seems to have two contradictory answers between the Game and the movies. In the Hell Valley timeline of BTTF2, and in the Tannen Mob timeline of the game, it seems that Marty and Doc can exist indefinitely in the alternate timelines. They of course want to fix the timeline, but they never directly cite the possibility of their own erasure as the reason. True, Doc WAS in a hurry to go back to 1955 and fix things in BTTF2, but that could merely be because he didn't want to spend a minute more in that 'horrible place'.
On the other hand, Episode 3 gives the two conflicting answers at the same time...Marty continues to exist (seemingly indefinitely) in keeping with the movie, whereas Original Doc is erased, suggesting that the ripple effect WOULD erase the time traveler...instantly! Adding to the confusion, in Episode 5, Doc and Marty hang around in the Burnt Hill Valley timeline in 1931 (a FAR bigger paradox than any other in the series!) and Doc claims they have an hour before the ripple effect catches up to them and erases them...
Then there's the question of the alternate counterparts. BTTF2 simply avoids the issue by sending the alternate Marty to Switzerland and the alternate Doc to an asylum and they aren't mentioned at all after that. So whether there ARE two Marty's or two Doc's co-existing is never brought up at all! The Game also avoids this issue with Episode 2 similarly, but with Episode 3 again, they give contradictory answers-the alternate Marty is sent away to some math camp but he is referred to frequently unlike in BTTF2, whereas the alternate Doc is a major character in the Game! So I suppose it IS logical to assume that the alternate selves are always around...but the issue has never been tackled head-on...
The big flaw is 1885, seems that trip gets erased during the FCB timeline yet the 1931 timelines remain. The only rationale being the 1931 travels are directly required for the FCB timeline to exist while 1885 is not.
Most likely Doc managed to get back before Edna had went back by mistake, remember that Marty spends a little bit of time explaining what happened to Doc then Officer Parker comes in. Later when Doc & Marty are making Edna remember what happened, it sounds like the chase didn't last that long so most likely Doc just got into the timeline right before Edna goes back which then it takes Parker a few minutes to come back to the school which then the ripple effect then takes place in 1931 and the reason why Doc & Marty have not been affected yet is most likely it was going to take a little while for the ripple effect to catch up to 1986.
In BTTF1, one would assume Marty should fade-out instantly, after having interfered with George's "bird watching" and meeting Loraine. However this doesn't happen. Instead, we see the photograph of Marty and his sister and brother, begins to fade, starting with his brother. This is evidence of time "catching up", likely fading out the eldest (first-born) son first, with the youngest (Marty) last.
Marty doesn't begin to fade-out, until the point-of-no-return is about to expire (George and Loraine's first kiss). Loraine of 1985 (before the 1955 trip), explained that she first realized she would spend the rest of her life with George, after kissing him on the dance floor. If the kiss hadn't happened, there goes the McFly's.
Likewise, the notion of even creating a time machine was in Emmett´s (Young Doc) mind long before even encountering Marty. This was evidenced by his original creation of the "Rocket Car". It wasn't until after seeing Frankenstein, that Emmett decided to use electric rather than rocket propulsion, for his car.
In the movie, Emmett explained that he first "invented" time travel on November 5th, 1955. He slipped on the toilet seat, hit his head, and when he woke up, he had a revelation about the flux capacitor. So although the game makes a ton of changes to 1931 Doc, the "point-of-no-return" isn't until November 5th, 1955. Despite any changes to 1931, there is no reason to assume that Doc's accident on November 5th, wouldn't still occur.
I'd even suggest that the "FCB timeline" contained the November 5th accident, as evidenced by the usage of the flux capacitor "symbol" in 1986. The difference is, Edna being a presence in FCB's life around/after November 5th, 1955, and what FCB decided to do with his "revelation". As a result, in the altered timeline of 1986, time travel hasn't been invented. But any actions taken up until November 5th, 1955 would likely still have happened.
It means First Citizen Brown, the name of Doc in the Citizen Brown timeline of Episode 3.